It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Jan Åge Fjørtoft, on Norway + England's Nadir | Part One

Tue, 31 Mar 2026 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by a very special returning guest - Jan Fjørtoft! In this first part of a four-part series, we will explore Norway’s remarkable rise in the early 1990s and their famous 2–0 win over Graham Taylor’s England in 1993. Fjørtoft explains how Egil “Drillo” Olsen took a previously struggling national team and built belief through a disciplined, direct style, carefully defined roles, and detailed match analysis using hand-written stats and video. The episode breaks down the key tactical choices that unsettled England, revisits both Norway goals, and follows the qualifier run that took Norway to their first World Cup since 1938. Norway will return to the World Cup this summer for the first time since 1998.

01:12 Norway before the rise

04:09 Olsen arrives and stirs

06:47 Direct football philosophy

14:31 Stats and analysis

20:05 Defined roles and system

23:40 Beating England

28:12 Tactical switch

31:33 Gascoigne fitness factor

32:50 Olsen’s Selection Mind Games

37:20 Two Goals Breakdown

42:41 Road to USA 94 Sealed

45:45 Poland Night and Wild Celebrations

48:46 Heroes Welcome in Norway

52:04 World Cup Heat Prep Fiasco

59:59 Egil Olsen Legacy

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World Cup Countdown: 1966 | Patreon Sneak Peek!

Wed, 25 Mar 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you back to the 1966 FIFA World Cup.

On home soil in England, the hosts claimed their first and only World Cup title. Captain Bobby Moore marshalled the side with composure, while Geoff Hurst rose to immortality with a historic hat-trick in the final. England’s triumph, sealed in a dramatic victory over West Germany, remains one of the most iconic moments in football history and the nations greatest footballing day.

You can listen to the full episode on Patreon, along with the below privileges:

BONUS EDITIONS

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Exclusive content
Q&As
Ad-free episodes
Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Clyde Best: Breaking Barriers in English Football

Tue, 24 Mar 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by an extraudinary guest - Clyde Best. An absolute pioneer to the game, born in Bermuda, Clyde would become one of the first black players in First Division football in England. His new film, ‘Transforming the Beautiful Game: The Clyde Best Story’ will be shown for a week at Sadler’s Wells East from 25th March.

In this episode, Clyde recounts arriving in England as a teenager, getting lost at West Ham station and being taken in by the Charles family. He reflects on his rise at West Ham, getting his debut against Arsenal under Ron Greenwood in 1969 and playing alongside the likes of Bobby Moore, Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters. Clyde talks of the his Bermuda upbringing, national team breakthrough and the influence that his father had on him. Best reflects on being one of the first prominent black players in English football, enduring racist abuse and an acid-attack threat and playing against Pelé. He also discusses NASL moves to Tampa Bay and Portland Timbers and the inspiration he provided players such as Ian Wright.

01:29 Lost at Heathrow

03:23 The Charles Family

06:59 Bermuda Beginnings

10:20 West Ham Dream

13:20 Ron Greenwood Impact

15:22 Fast Track Debut

18:35 Breaking Barriers

24:06 Facing Racism

31:03 Scoring Against Pelé

35:20 Leaving West Ham for the NASL

37:17 American Soccer Showmanship

43:01 Legacy as a Pioneer

46:57 Honorary Doctorate

49:44 His love for West Ham

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Drugs, Murder, And The World Cup Part 3: The Narco History Of Colombian Football

Tue, 17 Mar 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this final part three of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the story of the 1994 World Cup and its devastating aftermath. This episode explores the immense and impossible pressure placed on the Colombian squad, from death threats delivered to hotel room TVs, to the chaos of a nation in civil war pinning all its hopes on eleven men. The discussion covers the Romania defeat, the fateful own goal against the USA, and the senseless murder of Andrés Escobar outside a nightclub. Rob and Jonathan also examine the legacy of Escobar 'the gentleman of football' and his remarkable fiancée Pamela Cascada, before reflecting on Colombia's long road to recovery and redemption.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:00 Andrés Escobar's Posthumous Column in El Tiempo

01:55 Setting the Scene: The Narco State & Pablo Escobar's Death

06:55 Pablo Escobar's Deep Love of Football

10:55 Francisco Maturana on the Narcos: "Like an Octopus"

16:30 Andrés Escobar: El Caballero del Fútbol

20:25 A Move to AC Milan & The Burden of Representing Colombia

23:30 Higuita's Exclusion & The President's Calculations

26:00 The Romania Defeat: Hagi's Moment of Magic

27:45 Death Threats, Kidnappings & Maturana in Tears

33:00 The USA Game: Playing Under the Shadow of Snipers

35:30 The Own Goal & Colombia's Elimination

37:15 The Murder of Andrés Escobar

41:00 Who Killed Escobar? The Galón Brothers & the Cover-Up

44:45 The State Funeral & Pamela Cascada's Dignity

48:15 The Aftermath: Colombia's Slow Road to Redemption

51:45 2014 & The Restoration of Colombian Football Pride

54:15 Closing Thoughts

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BONUS SNEAK PEEK: Colombia Through Football ft. Professor Matthew Brown

Fri, 13 Mar 2026 05:00:00 GMT

In this sneak peek to a bonus episode of It Was What It Was on Patreon, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Professor Matthew Brown (University of Bristol) to deepen the series on Andrés Escobar by tracing how Colombian history, political violence and the drug economy intersect with football. Brown rejects Gabriel García Márquez’s claim that three events defined 20th-century Colombia, while explaining why the 5–0 win over Argentina in 1993 became a tipping point for football as a national identity marker. The discussion covers football’s emergence alongside other sporting cultures, the role of sport after the 1948 Bogotazo and during La Violencia, and Colombia’s later shift into guerrilla conflict and cocaine trafficking. They explore cartel money’s social and sporting influence, the effects of Pablo Escobar’s death and subsequent violence, the symbolic damage of Colombia’s 1994 World Cup collapse, Copa América 2001, and how the 2014 team helped build trust during negotiations leading to the 2016 peace deal, while noting ongoing violence tied to the illegal drug trade.

You can listen to the full episode on Patreon

On Tuesday, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson return to round off the Colombia series and bring that story to a close.

On Wednesday, on Patreon only, the co-hosts continue the World Cup countdown series with an episode on the 1962 World Cup in Chile, looking back at the tournament and some of its key moments.

Then on Friday, also on Patreon only, we look back at when Northern Ireland faced Italy in the 1958 World Cup qualifiers. With Northern Ireland preparing for their 2026 World Cup play-off semi-final against Italy, Rob and Jonathan revisit the meeting where Northern Ireland qualified for their first World Cup and discuss the background to Ireland’s football split in the 1950s.

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Drugs, Murder, And The World Cup Part 2: The Narco History Of Colombian Football

Tue, 10 Mar 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part two of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dissect one of the greatest World Cup qualifying matches ever played: Colombia's stunning 5-0 victory over Argentina at El Monumental in Buenos Aires. This episode explores the dramatic buildup to the match, the hostile reception faced by the Colombian team, and the extraordinary performance that shocked the football world. The discussion then examines the dangerous euphoria that followed, as Colombia began to believe that they could win the 1994 World Cup, and the dark realities of the narco state.

01:39 Colombia's Mindset Before the Match & The Hostile Reception

04:07 The Lineup: Colombia vs Argentina at El Monumental

11:25 The Match Begins: Early Tension & Argentina's Miss

14:05 The Plane Incident: A Bizarre Moment at El Monumental

16:01 GOAL: Rincón Opens the Scoring

17:26 Maturana's Psychological Tactics at Half Time

18:05 GOAL: Asprilla Makes It 2-0

18:47 GOAL: Valencia Volleys In the Third

19:56 GOAL: Asprilla's Exquisite Curler Makes It 4-0

21:00 GOAL: Valencia Completes the Rout - 5-0

22:14 The Monumental Applauds Colombia Off the Pitch

24:32 The Celebrations: 100 Deaths & National Hysteria

30:55 "Now We're F***ed": The Burden of Expectation

33:19 World Champions Before the Tournament Begins

39:25 21 Friendlies & The Cash Grab

44:51 The Dark Side: Meeting With the Cali Cartel

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First Live Q&A | Sneak Peek!

Fri, 06 Mar 2026 16:47:13 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. We’ve just hosted our first live Patreon Q&A, where Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson answered questions directly from members, covering football history, stories from the game and much more. Here is a section from the conversation, watch and listen to the full episode only on Patreon.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Drugs, Murder, And The World Cup Part 1: The Narco History Of Colombian Football

Tue, 03 Mar 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the extraordinary history of Colombian football leading up to the 1994 World Cup. This episode covers the intersection of football and narco-culture, Pablo Escobar's involvement in the sport, the tense rivalry with Argentina, and the dramatic road to qualification culminating in the legendary 5-0 victory at El Monumental.

01:39 The El Dorado League & Early Colombian Football

10:11 Francisco Maturana: The Dentist Who Revolutionised Colombian Football

19:02 Maturana's Influences: Total Football Meets South American Flair

27:43 Navigating Narco-Culture: Pablo Escobar

36:11 René Higuita: The Sweeper-Keeper & The Kidnapping

41:25 Building Rivalry: Colombia vs Argentina at Copa América 1993

48:12 World Cup Qualifying Begins: Asprilla's Controversies

54:03 The Road to Buenos Aires: Setting Up the Five-Nil

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BONUS: Turf Wars: Bill Buford Sneak Peek

Fri, 27 Feb 2026 05:00:00 GMT

We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Bill Buford to round up their series on hooliganism.

BONUS EDITIONS

WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Exclusive content
Q&As
Ad-free episodes
Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Turf Wars Part Two: The History of Football Hooliganism

Tue, 24 Feb 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part of our two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper trace the roots of football violence from the 1890s through to its transformation into organised ‘firms’ in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. They discuss the origins of the word ‘hooligan’, early crowd disorder and FA crackdowns, and how post-war prosperity, youth subcultures, away travel and ‘taking ends’ helped create a new kind of fan conflict. The episode also covers the European and England-team flashpoints of the 1970s and 80s, the political and policing response to the Popplewell Report, with later links to post-Hillsborough reforms and why large-scale hooliganism declined.

01:39 Where the Word ‘Hooligan’ Comes From (1890s London)

04:03 Football Fever: Mass Crowds and Class Anxiety

12:17 What Early ‘Hooliganism’ Looked Like: Pitch Invasions & Crowd Control

17:43 Players Under Attack

20:25 Fan-on-Fan Violence Emerges & the Rise of Away Travel

22:08 Cup Finals, ‘Football Specials’ & Patronising Press Panic

27:27 Post-War: The 60s–70s Gangs Are Coming

29:02 Teddy Boys, Rock ’n’ Roll Panics & Mods vs Rockers

31:02 Merseyside: Away Travel & the Rise of Chanting

36:53 Taking Ends: Territory, Undercover Trouble & the New ‘Game’

41:58 Europe & England Abroad: From Paris 1975 to Euro 1980

44:00 1980s Casuals, Designer Gear & Firms Arranging Fights

48:43 1985: Luton–Millwall, Heysel, Thatcher & the Popplewell Report

51:28 Aftermath: CCTV, ID Schemes & Taylor Report

53:50 Global Legacy: Ultras, Copycat Firms & Why Football Identity Endures

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Turf Wars Part One: The Making of ‘Hooligan’

Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism.

00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary

03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF

11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera

15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’

24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct

26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset

33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity

34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats

40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’

45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry

54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era

58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact

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World Cup Countdown: 1934 | Patreon Sneak Peek!

Fri, 13 Feb 2026 05:00:00 GMT

We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

In a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through the World Cup! This will be dropping every Wednesday on Patreon - so we've gone with the imaginative title of World Cup Wednesdays!

If you join, you'll also be getting ad-free main episodes, loads more bonus episodes, magazine retrospectives and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community.

Patreon subscribers get:

BONUS EDITIONS

WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Exclusive content
Q&As
Ad-free episodes
Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Pep's Manchester Masterpiece: A Ten-Year Journey

Tue, 10 Feb 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into Pep Guardiola’s story at Manchester City 10 years on from his appointment at the club and the difficulties he would face in his opening season. Join us as we explore the highs and lows, from the thrilling victories to the unexpected defeats. We discuss his controversial decisions, key matches, and the significant signings that shaped the team's future. Can Pep's philosophy adapt to the rigors of English football? Discover how one of the world's most acclaimed coaches navigated his debut season and set the stage for a legacy at the Etihad. Don't miss out on the in-depth analysis and special bonus content available exclusively on our Patreon page, following the link below:

https://www.patreon.com/cw/ItWas

00:00 Exciting News: Join Our Patreon Community!

02:51 Introduction

04:47 Pep Guardiola's First Season Struggles

07:56 The Tactical Challenges and Key Matches

15:52 Pep's Appointment and Early Expectations

22:02 Transfer Market Moves and Squad Challenges

27:53 Yaya Touré's Controversial Exit

28:56 Manchester City's Winning Streak

30:34 Champions League Group Stage Drama

32:02 Pep's Concerns and Criticisms

43:49 Champions League Humiliation

51:44 End of a Disappointing Season

53:19 Looking Ahead: Pep's Future at City

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Shoot Magazine Throwback EP 1 - Patreon Sneak Peek!

Fri, 06 Feb 2026 08:14:03 GMT

We're launching on Patreon! And to kick things off, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

In this first episode in a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through historic issues of football magazines - starting with Shoot!

If you join, you'll also be getting all of our main episdoes ad free, bonus episodes, World Cup countdown and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community.

Patreon subscribers get:

BONUS EDITIONS

WORLD CUP COLLECTION

RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTION

MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHAN

JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITY

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

What’s included

Exclusive content
Q&As
Ad-free episodes
Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Luis Figo's Shock Transfer: From Barcelona to Real Madrid | Part Two

Mon, 02 Feb 2026 05:00:00 GMT

We are excited to announce that we will be launching a Patreon on Friday 6th February, where you can get bonus episodes and exclusive content. Follow the link below to sign up:

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. On today's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue exploring one of the most controversial football transfers - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. In this second part of the two-part series, they delve into the public and private turmoil surrounding the transfer, including the dramatic fallout at both clubs, fan reactions, and the momentous pig's head incident. They also examine the long-term impact on Figo's career and friendships, and the profound changes this transfer spurred in football. Don't miss this thrilling conclusion!

00:00 Exciting News and our Patreon Launch

02:51 Introduction to the Episode

04:28 Speculation and Media Frenzy

06:17 Election Drama and Figo's Dilemma

07:30 The Final Decision

09:52 The Fallout and Consequences

11:51 The Election Results

13:56 Figo's Reluctance and Pressure

16:26 The Persuasion Tactics

19:20 The Final Agreement

28:19 Florentino's Persuasion Tactics

31:22 Figo's Announcement and Gaspar's Reaction

33:14 The Fallout in Barcelona

40:57 The First El Clásico After the Transfer

43:49 The Infamous Pig's Head Incident

48:56 The Lingering Legacy and Impact

53:20 Figo's Reflections and Conclusion

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Luis Figo's Shock Transfer: From Barcelona to Real Madrid | Part One

Tue, 27 Jan 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into one of the most shocking football transfers of all time - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. They discuss the immense impact of this transfer on both clubs, the controversy surrounding it, and how it altered the landscape of football transfers forever. Featuring insights about the political machinations in both clubs, the role of agents, and the seismic shift this transfer created in the football world, this episode brings to life the dramatic story behind the headlines. Tune in for part one of this fascinating two-part series!

00:00 Quote to open the episode

05:53 Figo's Role and Style of Play

09:16 The Political and Historical Context

17:03 The Presidential Election and Florentino Perez

26:39 Florentino Perez's Strategy

30:44 The Complacency at Barcelona

31:23 Florentino Perez's Scramble for Figo

32:20 The Role of José Veiga

36:11 The Pre-Contract and Its Implications

48:06 The Election and the Leak

52:54 The Fallout and Future Implications

53:20 Exciting News: Launching a Patreon

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The American Dream: Pelé, Cosmos + Rise & Fall of NASL | Part Four

Tue, 20 Jan 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. In the final episode of our four-part special on the NASL, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the decline and eventual collapse of the league. From financial instability, over-expansion, and missed opportunities, to the controversial business decisions and the rise of indoor soccer. This episode covers the myriad of factors that led to the NASL's downfall. Explore the final turbulent years, the impact on US Soccer, and the lessons learned from one of football's most intriguing leagues.

00:00 Introduction to the NASL and Its Peak

02:08 The Decline Begins: Post-Pele Era

05:36 Celebrity Owners and Financial Woes

09:01 The Cosmos' Dominance and League Format Issues

19:21 Franchise Movements and Player Strikes

29:03 The Beginning of the End: Financial Losses and Decline

36:13 Ownership Disputes and Relocations

37:53 Franchise Failures and Player Movements

43:34 NASL's Struggles and FIFA's Ultimatum

44:28 The Final Collapse of NASL

55:18 Failed Experiments and Indoor Soccer

01:01:49 The End of NASL and Its Legacy

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The American Dream: Pelé, Cosmos + Rise & Fall of NASL | Part Three

Tue, 13 Jan 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this third episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dive deep into the transformation kicked off by the arrival of legendary soccer star Pele. We go on an epic journey of the NASL, from shambolic beginnings to becoming one of the most iconic and influential leagues in world football, even if just for a short while. We explore how the NASL went from drawing crowds, to attracting the highest-paid player in the world, and the ensuing excitement and challenges that followed. Featuring the key moments, star players, innovative marketing strategies, and the initial signs of financial instability, this episode captures the league at its highest just before its inevitable decline. Don't miss this fascinating look at the peaks of NASL's history and what ultimately led the league to stumble. Tune in next week for the final episode of this four-part series.

02:33 The Growth of Soccer in American Schools and Colleges

03:32 Financial Struggles and the Arrival of Pele

13:54 Innovative Rule Changes and Attendance Issues

18:11 The Role of Media and Celebrity Influence

23:55 The NASL's Expansion and Financial Commitments

31:20 The Pursuit of Soccer Superstars

33:01 Pele's Impact on American Soccer

34:56 The Rise of NASL Franchises

36:59 Challenges and Financial Struggles

39:11 Marketing Gimmicks and Celebrity Players

55:03 The Golden Year of 1977

01:04:36 Pele's Farewell and Future Uncertainties

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Recommended Replay: When Amorim Arrived at Man United And The Busby-Ferguson Curse

Wed, 07 Jan 2026 13:57:26 GMT

Following the sacking of Ruben Amorim by Manchester United, here is a recommended replay from our episode released in November 2024, when Amorim first arrived at Manchester United. Jonathan and Rob discuss the clubs persistent challenge in finding a manager capable of replicating the legacy left by its legendary figures - something that still stands today...

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The American Dream: Pelé, Cosmos + Rise & Fall of NASL | Part Two

Tue, 06 Jan 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue onto part two of a four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL). They discuss the initial attempts to establish professional soccer leagues in America, including the rivalries between the NASL and the National Professional Soccer League (NPSL). The episode covers the impact of foreign teams, the financial and logistical hurdles, and the ongoing struggle to gain popularity and acceptance in the U.S. market. With input from past experiences and key figures, they provide an in-depth look at why American soccer faced numerous setbacks and what was done to overcome them. Join us next week for part three!

01:09 The Early Years of Soccer in the USA

01:34 The Impact of the Wall Street Crash

06:46 Post-War Challenges

09:43 The Decline of American Soccer in the 1950s

21:46 The 1960s: A Decade of Missed Opportunities

27:15 The Birth of the NASL

33:25 Lack of American Players in Early Leagues

34:55 Rival Leagues: NPSL vs NASL

35:42 Initial Matches and Attendance Issues

40:11 Discipline Problems and Game Abandonments

48:10 Financial Struggles and Legal Battles

49:13 National Team Struggles and Attempts at Growth

50:31 Foreign Influence and Pre-season Tours

54:48 Financial Instability and League Contraction

58:20 NASL's Unconventional Season Format

01:00:32 Legacy and Future Prospects of NASL

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New Years Day Special Episode

Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring you a New Years Day Special Episode. We hope you enjoy and wish you all a Happy New Year!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The American Dream: Pelé, Cosmos + Rise & Fall of NASL | Part One

Tue, 30 Dec 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by a special guest and former footballer Dennis Tueart. In this first episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), Dennis, known for his iconic moments with Sunderland and Manchester City, shares his remarkable journey from English football to the booming NASL in the 1970s. Discover his experiences with the New York Cosmos, playing alongside legends like Franz Beckenbauer, replacing Pele, navigating cultural shifts, and understanding the challenges and triumphs that shaped the future of soccer in America. Don't miss this deep dive into football history, glamour, and the evolution of the beautiful game in the United States.

00:57 Dennis Tueart's Transfer to the Cosmos

02:05 Challenges and Decisions

04:19 Arrival and Initial Impressions

07:15 Experiences and Reflections

11:38 Life in the NASL

17:18 Training and Facilities

18:58 Pre-season and Early Challenges

25:14 The NASL's Unique Rules

29:55 Challenges and Triumphs in the NASL

30:25 Play-off Performances and Nicknames

30:59 Intense Matches and Injuries

31:36 The Semi-final Comeback

36:27 Winning the Conference Final

37:40 Facing Rodney Marsh and Tampa Bay

42:51 Touring and Transitioning

46:53 Final Reflections and Legacy

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Escape to Victory: The Cult Classic with Pele, Bobby Moore and Sylvester Stallone | Christmas Special

Tue, 23 Dec 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this Christmas Special Episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author John Smith to talk about his new book - 'Escape: A Love Letter to a Cult Football Classic' all about the film 'Escape to Victory'. The trio delve into the making of the film, revealing behind-the-scenes stories, discussing the film's historical context, and analysing the football sequences. We take a look at inside stories from the remarkable cast and crew, including Pele and Sylvester Stallone. The three discuss amusing anecdotes, the authenticity of the football matches and the film's lasting impact. This episode is a must-listen for fans of film and football history. Wishing you all a Merry Christmas from the It Was What It Was team!

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming John Smith

04:41 The Making of 'Escape to Victory'

20:44 Historical Resonances and Themes

28:59 Behind the Scenes Stories

34:09 The Escape Plan in the Film

37:11 The Cast and Their Connections

41:36 The Missing Footballer Mystery

46:01 Lack of Female Characters

47:06 The Football Game Analysis

53:19 The Half-Time Escape Plan

58:00 The Final Match Moments

01:06:13 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell

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The Cold War Classico: George Orwell on Dinamo Moscow, Arsenal & Chelsea

Tue, 16 Dec 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into George Orwell's infamous essay on sport, specifically focusing on Dinamo Moscow's 1945 tour of Britain. They explore Orwell's controversial viewpoint that serious sport is akin to 'war minus the shooting,' and delve into the historical and political context of this post-WWII football tour. The discussion covers the tactical innovations introduced by the Soviet team, the media and public's reaction, and the broader implications for international sport and politics. This episode provides an in-depth look at how football can both unite and divide, reflecting on Orwell's critique and its relevance to today's sports culture.

00:00 Introduction: The Dark Side of Sports

01:05 George Orwell's Influence on Sports

01:49 The Political Context of the 1945 Moscow Tour

02:47 The Goodwill Tour: Ideals vs. Reality

05:00 The Soviet Union's Football Strategy

08:23 The Arrival of Dinamo Moscow

21:45 The First Match: Dinamo Moscow vs Chelsea

30:53 The Political Showdown: Arsenal vs Dinamo Moscow

32:31 The Final Game in Scotland

35:56 Soviet Propaganda and the Legacy of the Tour

40:36 Tactical Innovations and English Football's Response

47:36 George Orwell's Critique of Sport

53:18 Football's Role in Nationalism and International Relations

01:00:51 Concluding Thoughts on Orwell and Football

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British Society: Through The Lens of Football

Tue, 09 Dec 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest and historian David Goldblatt. In this episode, they discuss David's new book, 'Injury Time,' which examines the impact of recent seismic events like Brexit, COVID-19, and populism on football in Britain. They delve into the popularity of football despite its numerous challenges, the economic disparities within the game, and the global obsession with the Premier League. The conversation also touches on the significance of football as a cultural and political space, the rise of women's football, and the ethical concerns surrounding state ownership of clubs. They also examine the role of fans and community. This episode provides a comprehensive look at the current state and the future of the beautiful game.

00:00 Introduction

00:55 The State of Football Today

03:21 Football as a National Obsession

07:41 Globalisation and Football's Cultural Impact

19:12 Economic Disparities in Football

21:35 Football Reflecting Social Inequalities

29:50 Football's Role in Social and Political Issues

31:20 The Role of Football in Society

33:38 Economic Inequality in Football

36:50 The Super League Controversy

41:25 Cultural Resistance and Football's Future

54:42 The Impact of COVID on Football

59:20 State Involvement in Football

01:02:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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The Russian Pele: The Scandal of Eduard Streltsov | Part Two

Tue, 02 Dec 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper look into the dark and controversial period of Streltsov’s life. In this second part we cover the heinous crime that Streltsov was accused of, the subsequent trial and conviction, and his years in the Gulag. Despite the damning evidence, Streltsov's eventual return to football and continued popularity are explored, along with the societal implications and unresolved questions surrounding his story. Join us for a detailed look at both the fall and unexpected resurgence of a man once considered the 'Russian Pele.’

This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse and rape, which some listeners may find distressing. If you’ve been affected by any of the issues raised, the NHS provides a list of support services and resources here:

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault

00:00 A Dark Story Unfolds

00:31 The Accusation and Confession

04:50 The Aftermath and Public Reaction

05:40 Evidence and Forensic Details

07:05 The State's Role

08:22 Personal Struggles and Downfall

23:42 Speculations and Suspicions

26:14 The Case Against Streltsov

28:14 The Soviet State's Role

30:31 Marina's Disappearance

32:08 Life in the Gulag

40:15 Streltsov’s Return to Football

48:21 Legacy and Controversy

52:06 Conclusion

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The Russian Pele: The Scandal of Eduard Streltsov | Part One

Tue, 25 Nov 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the story of Eduard Streltsov, the 'Russian Pele'. In the first part of this two-part series, we trace Streltsov's meteoric rise from a poor upbringing to becoming a celebrated football talent. Witness his groundbreaking performances, his early brush with fame, and the personal flaws that began to unravel his career. Discover the events leading up to the fateful allegations that would ultimately tarnish his legacy. Join us as we unveil the complexities and the promises cut short in the life of one of Soviet football's most enigmatic figures.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault

00:00 Introduction

03:38 The Soviet Football Landscape in the 1950s

09:35 Streltsov's Early Life and Family Background

16:31 Streltsov's Football Career Takes Off

20:40 The 1956 Olympics and Missed Opportunities

25:17 The Medal That Never Was

27:01 The Downfall Begins

30:37 A Pattern of Trouble

49:50 Streltsov's Arrest

50:12 Confession and Public Outcry

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Imre Hirschl: The Hungarian Trailblazer of South American Football | Part Two

Tue, 18 Nov 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the extraordinary story of Imre Hirschl, the Hungarian who revolutionised South American football. In this second part, we look into Hirschl's impact on Uruguay's historic 1950 World Cup victory and his innovative tactics at Club Atlético Peñarol and River Plate. Discover how Hirschl's genius and controversial methods shaped football history, transforming teams and leaving a lasting legacy on the footballing world.

00:45 The Tactical Mastermind Behind Uruguay's Success

01:55 Controversial Matches and Referee Decisions

05:20 The Dominance of the Big Five in Argentinian Football

08:37 Hirschl's move to River Plate

11:59 Tactical Evolution and Direct Play

16:55 Hircshl’s Downfall and Match-Fixing Allegations

21:06 Return to Coaching and Success in Uruguay

28:22 Strict Discipline and Unique Methods

29:09 Young Players and Team Dynamics

31:14 Campaign for National Coach

31:59 Political Disputes and Appointments

33:22 World Cup Preparations and Chaos

35:43 Uruguay's Tactical Genius

37:11 The Shocking World Cup Final

43:48 Aftermath and Legacy

44:58 Hirschl's Influence and Final Years

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Imre Hirschl: The Hungarian Trailblazer of South American Football | Part One

Tue, 11 Nov 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper deep dive into the extraordinary story of Imre Hirschl, the Hungarian who took South American football by storm. In this first part of a two-part series we hear the story of Hirschl's early life, his emigration to South America, and his unexpected rise to coaching fame in Argentina. From starting as a salami salesman to becoming the mastermind behind Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata's success, Hirschl's tale is one of perseverance, innovation, and tactical genius. Tune in to discover the myths, challenges, and triumphs of this unlikely football legend who redefined the game during the early 20th century.

00:00 The Unlikely Beginnings of a Coaching Legend

03:46 The Hungarian Influence on South American Football

07:59 Unraveling the Myths and Realities

09:40 A Journey Through War and Immigration

16:29 The Butcher Turned Football Visionary

21:55 The Mystery of Hirschl's Football Career

24:38 Meeting Béla Guttmann and the Next Chapter

26:21 Hirschl's Coaching Journey Begins

28:14 Tactical Innovations and Success

30:21 Challenges and Triumphs in Argentina

31:14 Early Coaching Stint in Brazil

32:42 Struggles and Determination

42:21 Hirschl's Coaching Philosophy

46:48 Building a Winning Team

49:32 Conclusion and Future Prospects

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How Data Won the Premier League: Liverpool and the Rise of Modern Metrics | Part Two

Tue, 04 Nov 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part on data in football, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their exploration into how data analytics transformed modern football. This episode delves into Liverpool's remarkable journey using data and how it helped them to win the Champions League in 2019 and the Premier League in 2020. We take a look at the story behind key figures like Ian Graham and Michael Edwards, exploring their early skepticism, the challenges they faced, and the groundbreaking decisions that followed. Discover how Liverpool's recruitment strategy evolved with data, featuring key transfers such as Sadio Mané, Mohamed Salah, and Andy Robertson. Discover the tensions and synergies between data-driven decisions and traditional football instincts that reshaped Liverpool and influenced their remarkable success under Jürgen Klopp.

00:44 The Role of Data in Football

02:00 Key Figures: Ian Graham and Michael Edwards

03:17 Michael Edwards' Journey

07:18 Early Skepticism and Challenges

12:39 Liverpool's Data Revolution

14:54 Transfer Market Strategies

18:35 Cultural Clashes and Successes

26:24 Ian Graham's Role in Liverpool's Data Revolution

27:42 The Transfer Committee's Struggles and Criticisms

30:23 Jurgen Klopp's Introduction to Data Analytics

35:49 The Impact of Data on Key Signings

42:12 The Evolution and Challenges of Data-Driven Decisions

44:43 The Future of Data in Football

51:47 Conclusion

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How Data Won the Premier League: Liverpool and the Rise of Modern Metrics | Part One

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by journalist, broadcaster and author of 'Expected Goals: The story of how data conquered football and changed the game' Rory Smith. In today’s episode we explore the fascinating journey of data analytics in football. From the early days of Charles Reep and Valeriy Lobanovskyi's basic data collection to the revolutionary 1990s that saw a surge in clubs like Liverpool using a data-driven approach under Ian Graham and Michael Edwards to lead to Premier League success. We also look at how clubs like Bolton Wanderers under Sam Allardyce leveraged data to gain a competitive edge and and the cultural shift towards data in football management. Tune in to understand how data played a crucial role in some of the greatest footballing successes of the modern era.

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Rory Smith

00:42 The Evolution of Data in Football

01:29 The Role of Data Collectors

05:04 Prozone and Early Data Pioneers

11:17 The Culture War: Nerds vs. Scouts

12:17 Sam Allardyce: The Unlikely Data Advocate

23:32 Moneyball and Its Impact on Football

27:24 Decision Technology and Early Predictions

28:06 The Role of Data in Football Predictions

28:48 The Fink Tank Column and Its Impact

31:09 Spurs' Missed Opportunity with Data

32:56 Tottenham's Early Adoption of Data Analytics

41:11 Liverpool's Data-Driven Transformation

47:10 The Cultural Shift Towards Data in Football

58:44 The Importance of Communication in Data Utilisation

59:45 Conclusion

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Messi's Magic: Barcelona's Golden Era | Part Two

Tue, 21 Oct 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second episode of a two-part special, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their exploration of Lionel Messi's early years, focusing on his journey from 2005 to the cusp of greatness in 2008. This episode delves into pivotal moments such as Messi's breakthrough in Barcelona's first team, his dramatic red card on his Argentina debut, and his developing relationship with key figures like Ronaldinho. We take a look at Messi's significant impact in the Joan Gamper Trophy, his hat-trick against Real Madrid in the El Clásico, and his stunning solo goal against Getafe. The episode also sheds light on the internal struggles and political tensions within Argentina's national team during the 2006 World Cup, and the influence of Barcelona's management in shaping Messi's career path. Join us as explore the trials and triumphs that shaped Messi into one of football's greatest ever.

00:00 Introduction: Messi's Early Brilliance

00:40 Messi's Breakthrough in 2005

01:23 Homesickness

04:00 Argentina Debut: A Rocky Start

09:25 Barcelona's Dilemma

11:31 Rising Star: The Joan Gamper Trophy

13:52 Contract Negotiations and Transfer Rumors

17:34 Messi's Impact in La Liga and Champions League

25:29 Messi's Diet and Lifestyle Concerns

26:11 Injury Setback and Return to Training

27:26 Champions League Final Disappointment

31:22 World Cup 2006: Argentina's Journey

36:07 Quarter-Final Clash with Germany

42:25 Barcelona's Decline and Messi's Rise

46:57 Ronaldinho's Influence and Messi's Future

49:10 Conclusion and Future Prospects

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Messi’s Magic: Barcelona’s Golden Era | Part One

Tue, 14 Oct 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into Lionel Messi's early years at Barcelona and his rise to stardom. They explore Messi's journey from his initial signing to the club in 2000 to the early recognition of his talent by notable figures like Ronaldinho. The episode highlights Messi's challenges, including his growth hormone treatment and cultural adjustments as a young Argentine in Spain. Key moments such as his interactions with future stars like Gerard Piqué, Cesc Fàbregas, as well as his significant contributions to Barcelona's youth and first teams, which are discussed in detail. This episode covers his early setbacks, first team debut, and eventual triumphs, culminating in his standout performance at the 2005 FIFA U20 World Cup. Join us as we uncover how Messi went from a promising youngster to an emerging superstar at Barcelona.

00:00 Introduction to the episode

00:40 Messi's Signing and Initial Challenges

01:15 Settling in Barcelona: Cultural and Personal Struggles

05:51 Integration and Early Successes

20:40 Political Chaos and Youth Team Dynamics

23:33 Messi's Rising Star and International Attention

27:06 First Impressions and Early Training

27:39 Debut and Initial Reactions

29:37 Contract Negotiations and Adjustments

32:48 National Team Dilemmas

38:31 Integration into Barcelona's First Team

46:27 Under-20 World Cup and Rising Stardom

51:18 Conclusion and Looking Ahead

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part Four

Tue, 07 Oct 2025 04:00:00 GMT

In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the decline of Nottingham Forest following their European Cup victories. This final part of a four-part special looks at the financial turmoil, management struggles, and internal conflicts that marked the club's subsequent years. Join us as we discuss how the relationship between Brian Clough and Peter Taylor deteriorated, the club’s misjudged transfers, and the impact of Clough's growing dependence on alcohol. From the fallouts to the poignant departures, this episode covers the unraveling of a once-glorious team and the tragedy of a fractured partnership.

00:00 Financial Woes and Disappointment

00:50 The Decline Begins

02:32 Unraveling Behind the Scenes

04:18 Transfer Turmoil

09:24 Clough and Taylor's Strained Relationship

14:11 Financial Scandals and Internal Strife

18:05 The Breaking Point

29:03 Clough's Controversial Decisions

32:24 Financial Struggles and Player Transfers

37:18 Clough's Health and Alcohol Issues

45:02 The Breakup with Peter Taylor

48:20 Reflecting on Clough and Taylor's Legacy

51:29 Clough's Changing Management Style

53:43 The Greatest Achievement in European Football

55:28 Conclusion

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part Three

Tue, 30 Sep 2025 04:00:00 GMT

In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the story of Brian Clough’s Nottingham Forest, following on from their European Cup victory in the last episode. This third part of a four-part special covers the 1979-80 season, looking at how Forest overcame obstacles both on and off the pitch to claim their second successive European Cup. Within the season there are some highs and lows, from overcoming unexpected challenges, and navigating crucial European fixtures to dealing with internal instability and controversial management methods. From high-profile transfers to unforgettable European nights, tune in to discover how this extraordinary team went on to write another chapter in their illustrious history.

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene

01:03 Nottingham Forest's European Campaign Begins

01:28 Key Transfers and Management Decisions

07:47 Unexpected Challenges and Controversies

20:31 European Cup Quarter-Finals

28:52 The Importance of Team Camaraderie

30:19 Challenges and Strategies in European Matches

32:38 Player Management and Injuries

36:23 Prepping for the European Cup Final

42:49 The Final Match Against Hamburg

51:03 Post-Match Reflections and Legacy

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part Two

Tue, 23 Sep 2025 04:00:00 GMT

In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their deep dive into Brian Clough's transformative tenure at Nottingham Forest. This second part of a four-part special, captures the thrilling journey as Forest ventures into the European Cup, starting from their incredible 5-1 victory over AEK Athens and leading up to their historic final against Malmö. Expect to hear detailed anecdotes and insights revealing Clough's unique management style, key matches and significant strategic decisions, including the controversial but ultimately successful signing of Trevor Francis for a British record fee. Join us to explore how a team from the second division ascended to the pinnacle of European football.

00:28 Introduction to Nottingham Forest's European Journey

01:26 Forest's Rise to European Dominance

01:46 The Quest for the European Cup

03:36 Strategic Moves and Key Decisions

10:02 Facing Liverpool in the European Cup

12:42 The Tactical Genius of Clough and Taylor

26:17 The Aftermath and Moving Forward

26:38 Unbeaten Streak and Chairman Change

27:35 European Cup Drama: Forest vs. AEK Athens

28:19 Clough's Management Style and Larry Lloyd Incident

30:55 Training Anecdotes and Managerial Hypocrisy

37:39 Trevor Francis Joins Forest

40:51 League Cup Final and European Cup Quarter-Finals

42:25 Semi-Final Showdown Against Cologne

48:37 European Cup Final Against Malmö

55:27 Forest Crowned European Champions

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part One

Tue, 16 Sep 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the stage for Brian Clough’s remarkable journey to becoming manager of Nottingham Forest in this first part of a four-part-special. After his departure from Leeds, Clough takes on the challenge of revitalising a mid-table second division team into a team that dominates English and European football. Clough's reunion with assistant Peter Taylor plays a pivotal role as they sign key players like Peter Shilton and Kenny Burns. This episode looks at the early challenges faced, strategic player signings, and the pivotal moments that laid the groundwork for Nottingham Forest's incredible achievements. Join us as we set the stage for one of football's most astonishing success stories.

01:09 The Rise and Fall of Brian Clough

08:30 Clough's Early Struggles at Nottingham Forest

21:03 Clough's Confrontational Style

24:44 Building the Foundation for Success

27:07 The Clough-Taylor Partnership

27:39 Taylor's Reluctance and Reconciliation

28:52 Building a Winning Team

31:16 The Anglo-Scottish Cup Victory

33:37 Promotion to the Top Flight

34:43 Strengthening the Squad

36:33 Clough's England Manager Candidacy

42:11 A Defensive Strategy for Success

46:46 Winning the League and Beyond

52:15 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

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Red Devils on The Brink: United’s Dramatic Demise 1985-86

Tue, 09 Sep 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into Manchester United’s 1985-86 season - a campaign filled with promise, passion, and ultimately, heartbreak.

A year that began with soaring hopes and a record-breaking unbeaten run, unravels in a whirlwind of injuries, off-field drama, and missed opportunities. We’ll explore the highs and lows of Ron Atkinson’s final full season in charge, from the electric atmosphere at Old Trafford to the heartbreak of falling short in the title race. Expect in-depth analysis of key matches, player performances, and the pivotal moments that defined the season as Rob and Jonathan relive the excitement, the agony, and the legacy of 1985-86.

00:29 – The 1985-86 Season: High Hopes and Early Promise

01:49 – Ron Atkinson’s Arrival and United’s Managerial History

04:38 – The Big Ron Era: Style, Successes, and Setbacks

08:41 – The Bryan Robson Factor: United’s Dependence

13:23 – Squad Building, Transfers, and Team Dynamics

17:13 – Cup Runs, League Frustrations, and Dressing Room Drama

24:50 – The State of English Football in the Mid-80s

25:59 – The 1985-86 Season Kicks Off

27:50 – United’s Record-Breaking Start

32:41 – The Winning Streak and Early League Dominance

39:13 – Injuries, Draws, and the Beginning of the Decline

43:34 – Mark Hughes’ Transfer Saga and Off-Field Turmoil

47:03 – The Drinking Culture and Its Impact

49:43 – The Collapse: Losing Form and the Title

54:56 – The End of the Atkinson Era

59:18 – The Arrival of Sir Alex Ferguson & Reflections

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A Long Road to Glory: The Lionesses Origin Story | Part Two

Fri, 05 Sep 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast hosted by Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper. In this second episode of a two-part special, we delve into the pivotal moments that lifted the 50-year ban on women's football in England. From the formation of the Women’s Football Association, to looking at the birth of the Lionesses and their first official international match. This episode looks at the pioneering women and their allies who revived the game in the 1960s, building grassroots clubs, fighting for recognition to pave the way for women’s football today. Tune in to hear all about the history of the women’s game.

00:00 The End of the Ban

00:28 Picking Up the Pieces: Women’s Football After the Ban

00:53 The 1960s Revival: Grassroots and New Teams

03:10 The Impact of England’s 1966 World Cup Win

07:54 Building a Movement: Key Figures and Early Clubs

10:56 Struggles for Facilities and Recognition

12:50 International Influence

21:22 The Formation of the Women’s Football Association

24:32 The FA’s Changing Attitude and Official Recognition

27:20 The First Women’s FA Cup and International Competitions

29:40 Tensions: Unofficial vs. Official Tournaments

36:52 The Lost Lionesses: Mexico 1971 and Unrecognised Pioneers

40:26 The First Official Lionesses Game: Scotland vs. England, 1972

45:44 Media Coverage and Social Attitudes

47:44 Timeline: From the First Match to Modern Success

50:08 Reflections: The Legacy of the Pioneers

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A Long Road to Glory: The Lionesses Origin Story | Part One

Tue, 02 Sep 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to another episode of It Was What It Was with hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they delve into the history of The Lionesses and the true story behind the first ever women's Euros. This episode explores the struggles and triumphs of women's football, from the controversial FA ban in 1921, to England's historic victory in the 2025 Euros. Rob and Jonathan look into the pioneering efforts of teams like the Dick, Kerr Ladies and the Manchester Corinthians, looking at how women's football overcame a 50-year ban to shine on the world stage. Join us as we uncover the groundbreaking stories and resilient pioneers behind this incredible journey through a century of women's football history.

00:00 Introduction: Girls and Football

00:51 The Ban on Women's Football

01:37 The Struggle and Triumph of Women's Football

03:02 The Dick, Kerr Ladies and Their Legacy

04:22 The Impact of the FA Ban

07:00 International Tours and Recognition

12:59 Manchester Corinthians: A New Hope

18:34 Cultural Contrasts in Women's Football

20:48 The First Women's Euros: A Hidden History

22:10 The Rise and Fall of the International Ladies Football Association

26:21 Manchester Corinthians: Pioneers of Women's Football

32:21 Missed Opportunities and Reflections

38:44 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

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Spurs '91: Gascoigne, Gold, and the FA Cup with Ewan Flynn

Fri, 29 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper welcome special guest Euan Flynn, author of 'When the Year Ends in One,' to discuss Tottenham Hotspur's momentous 1990-91 season. The episode delves into Paul Gascoigne's tearful departure due to a career-threatening injury during the FA Cup final and the financial turmoil facing the club, which saw a potential world-record transfer deal collapse. The podcast covers the epic highs and disastrous lows of that pivotal season, from Gascoigne's mesmerizing FA Cup run to the behind-the-scenes financial entanglements involving Irving Scholar and the club's eventual acquisition by Alan Sugar. Tune in for an in-depth look at how this season had ramifications far beyond the football pitch.

00:00 Gascoigne's Injury and Tottenham's Financial Crisis

00:37 Introduction to the Special Episode

01:41 The Pivotal 1990-91 Season

02:19 Tottenham's Financial Woes and Ownership Issues

04:03 The Year Ending in One: A Superstition Explained

05:21 Gascoigne's Meteoric Rise and Media Frenzy

08:02 The Illusion of a Title Challenge

10:18 Irving Scholar's Takeover and Financial Missteps

21:13 The Culture and Discipline at Tottenham

23:46 The FA Cup Run Begins

31:36 The Pressure on Young Athletes

32:28 The Semifinal at Wembley

34:00 Venables and the Mysterious Financier

40:34 The FA Cup Final Build-Up

47:23 The Dramatic FA Cup Final

54:36 The Aftermath and Legacy

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Before Maradona and Messi: The Tragic Tale of Oreste Corbatta

Tue, 26 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the life of OrestesCorbatta, a legendary Argentine footballer whose story combines brilliance and tragedy. Known for his dazzling dribbling skills and audacious playstyle, Corbatta played a crucial role in Argentina's 1957 Campeonato Sudamericano win. However, despite his football genius, Corbatta's life was marred by alcoholism and personal struggles.

The episode explores his rise from a rural town to becoming a national icon, his struggles with illiteracy, and the personal traumas that impacted his career. Draper and Wilson also discuss the broader significance of Corbatta's style in the context of Argentine football, drawing parallels to legends like Maradona and Messi.

Join us as we remember the poetic yet tragic life of Omar Orestes Corbatta, a player whose legacy continues to influence Argentine football today.

00:00 Introduction

01:31 The Significance of the 1957 Campeonato Sudamericano

04:39 The Evolution of Argentinian Football

09:34 The Five Simbas and Their Impact

16:08 The Role of Radio in Argentinian Football Culture

19:31 The Decline and Shift in Argentinian Football

23:42 The Duality of Argentinian Football: Beauty and Cynicism

26:15 The Tragic Figure of Coba

27:25 Early Life and Struggles

29:49 Rise to Fame and Personal Challenges

33:50 The Decline Begins

38:46 Final Years and Legacy

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Mo Salah: The Egyptian King's Story | Part Two

Fri, 22 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the Football History podcast hosted by Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper. In this second episode of a two-part special, we explore the life of Mohamed Salah - from winning his third PFA player of the year award, to the pressures and the complex political landscape he navigates in Egypt . We delve into Salah's impact in the UK, his challenging relationship with International football, from rural Egypt to the global stage, Mohamed Salah's journey is as thrilling as it is complex. Join us for an in-depth look at one of the most intriguing figures in modern football.

00:00 Introduction

00:44 Mohamed Salah's Political and Cultural Significance

03:01 The Complexities of Expressing Political Views

05:02 Historical Context: Egypt's Political Landscape

14:19 The Arab Spring and Its Aftermath

24:06 Mohamed Salah's Relationship with the Egyptian National Team

27:40 High Stakes in World Cup Play-offs

28:35 Egypt's Football Legacy and Recent Struggles

29:55 The 2018 World Cup Disappointment

31:56 Controversies and Criticisms

37:59 Political Pressures and Social Media

44:46 Salah's Impact in the UK

49:24 The Ballon d'Or and Future Prospects

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Mo Salah: The Egyptian King's Story | Part One

Tue, 19 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Today, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson are joined by Ed Aarons from The Guardian to discuss the incredible journey of Mohamed Salah. With the PFA Footballer of the Year awards tonight, Salah's early life and career beginnings are explored in depth. Ed shares his research from travels to Salah's hometown in Egypt, providing unique insights into the challenges Salah faced, including the long commute for training and the support from his family. The episode covers Salah’s initial struggles, his move to Basel, and his eventual breakout that caught the attention of major clubs. Join us to learn how Salah's dedication and hard work paved the way for his renowned career.

00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic: Mohamed Salah

00:38 Guest Introduction: Ed Aarons

00:54 Journey to Egypt: Tracing Salah's Roots

01:54 Experiences in Salah's Hometown

03:22 Salah's Early Life and Football Beginnings

12:39 Challenges and Dedication in Salah's Youth

18:40 Salah's Transition to Professional Football

21:29 Cultural and Personal Insights on Salah

22:11 Salah's Early Professional Struggles

23:53 The Turning Point: Mastering the Art of Finishing

25:09 Early Career Struggles and Breakthroughs

26:33 International Recognition and Olympic Success

30:10 The Tragic Event That Changed Everything

31:31 The Move to Basel: Trials and Triumphs

39:00 Challenges at Chelsea and the Path to Greatness

44:26 Liverpool's Perfect Fit: Salah's Rise to Stardom

46:25 National Team Challenges and Rivalries

49:57 Legacy and Comparisons: The Greatest African Player?

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The Special One’s Fall at Chelsea — Inside Mourinho’s 2015 Sacking

Fri, 15 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

On today's episode of It Was What It Was, hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore a crucial moment in Premier League history: José Mourinho's dramatic 2015/16 season at Chelsea. They discuss Mourinho's second sacking at Chelsea and the key incidents that led to his sacking just 6 months after winning the title, including the infamous Eva Carneiro incident and clashes with players like Eden Hazard, and a turbulent pre-season tour.

The episode examines how these factors contributed to a season of rapid decline, leading to Mourinho's sacking and raising questions about his methods in modern football.

00:00 Introduction

00:33 Reflecting on Jose Mourinho's 2015 Season

01:42 The Beginning of the End: Preseason Signs

06:01 The Eva Carneiro Incident

14:29 Preseason Tour Troubles

20:50 Early Season Struggles

26:07 The Impact of the Eva Carneiro Affair

27:54 Conclusion and Transition to Second Half

29:04 Chelsea's Struggles Begin

29:31 Tactical Changes and Player Issues

30:33 Transfer Market Woes

33:33 Leadership Void and Dressing Room Dynamics

37:43 Marino's Public Outbursts

45:57 The Final Straw: Leicester Defeat

48:21 Marino's Departure and Legacy

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The Little Magician: Juninho’s Boro Days with Jan Åge Fjørtoft

Tue, 12 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by guest Jan Åge Fjørtoft to explore the groundbreaking transfer of Brazilian footabller Juninho to Middlesbrough in 1995. The discussion explores the players’ previous career highlights, the unique challenges they faced adjusting to English football, and the cultural impact of Juninho's arrival on the Premier League. Special focus is given to the transformational role this transfer played in attracting world-class talent to mid-level English clubs.

Jan gives insightful stories and personal anecdotes surrounding how Juninho became a beloved figure at Middlesbrough and his lasting legacy in English football history.

00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic

01:12 Early Career and Move to Rapid Vienna

02:32 Transition to English Football

04:49 Joining Middlesbrough and Early Impressions

13:26 The Impact of Janio's Signing

16:51 Cultural Adjustments and Training Challenges

19:07 Middlesbrough's Transformation and Community Connection

30:28 Cultural Insights from Middlesbrough

31:02 Tactical Evolution in English Football

31:45 Adapting to English Football's Physicality

36:23 Weather and Training Challenges

40:25 The Impact of Foreign Signings

50:10 Middlesbrough's Tumultuous Season

59:09 Legacy of Jan Nino and the Premier League

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Don Revie's Leeds United: Dirty or Misunderstood? | Part Two

Fri, 08 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In Part Two of our series on Don Revie's Leeds United, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore the origins of the 'Dirty Leeds' tag. This episode delves into the notorious 1964 match against Everton that cemented the club's aggressive reputation. It discusses the reactions from fans and media, the role of football associations, and Revie's responses.

Our conclusion also examines the cultural and tactical shifts in football during the 1960s and how Leeds' image became a point of controversy and unity for the team and its supporters.

Tune in to uncover the complexities behind one of football's most infamous labels.

Please remember to share, rate, review and comment to help It Was What It Was grow.

00:00 Introduction

01:36 The Dirty Leeds Tag

03:46 Don Revy's Management Style

27:43 Promotion and the Great Moral Panic

29:21 The Notorious Game against Everton at Goodison

30:37 Media and Public Perception

31:47 Football's Changing Landscape

33:04 The Birth of 'Dirty Leeds'

41:30 Revie's Reaction and Amplification

56:04 Conclusion and Legacy

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Don Revie's Leeds United: Dirty or Misunderstood? | Part One

Tue, 05 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss the significant impact of Don Revie on Leeds United and English football. The episode covers Revie's early career, his transition into management, and his influence on Leeds United.

The narrative delves into the challenges Leeds faced before Revie's arrival, his innovative approaches, and the beginning of Leeds' transformation. This is the first part of a series exploring the legendary 'Dirty Leeds' era, their historical context, and whether they really were 'dirty' or just misunderstood.

Join us for Part Two on Friday.

00:00 Introduction

01:03 The Controversial Reputation of Leeds United

03:21 Historical Context of Leeds United

04:26 The West Stand Fire and Financial Crisis

06:42 Managerial Struggles and Relegation

17:33 Don Revie's Appointment and Early Life

26:08 Revie's Early Career and Influence of Smith

28:34 Revie's Superstitions and Misfortunes

35:37 Transition to Manchester City and the Revie Plan

41:17 Billy Bremner's influence

47:59 Revie's Managerial Beginnings at Leeds

49:41 Conclusion and Teaser for the Part Two

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Red Star ’91: Conquering Europe as Yugoslavia Collapsed – Part Two

Fri, 01 Aug 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring part two into the fascinating and tragic story of Red Star Belgrade's triumphant 1991 European Cup campaign. They discuss Red Star's status as underdogs against Bayern Munich in the semifinal, their intricate path to victory amidst the backdrop of Yugoslavia's impending civil war, and the dramatic events of the legendary matches.

This episode highlights not just the team's achievements on the field, but also the historical, cultural, and political context that made their victory the last moment of unity for Yugoslav football before the nation's fragmentation. Additionally, the episode covers the aftermath of the war on Red Star and the once-great football culture of the region.

00:00 Introduction

03:18 Quarter-Final Against Dynamo Dresden

04:43 Political Tensions and the Road to the Semi-Final

08:36 The Complexities of Yugoslavia's Ethnic Divisions

12:36 The Semi-Final Against Bayern Munich

21:13 The Dramatic Second Leg against Bayern Munich

35:43 The Aftermath and Celebrations

36:16 Final against Marseille

44:13 Post-Match Reflections and Legacy

49:43 Impact of War on Red Star Belgrade

53:48 Croatian Football's Success

56:59 Conclusion

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Red Star ’91: Conquering Europe as Yugoslavia Collapsed – Part One

Tue, 29 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore the history of Red Star Belgrade, focusing on their monumental 1991 European Cup win against a backdrop of Yugoslavia's political turmoil and impending civil war.

This episode explores the club's founding, cultural significance, and key players, including the dramatic escape of Miodrag Belodedici from Romania. They also detail the influence of notorious figures like Arkan and the emotional scenes in Belgrade during this turbulent time.

Part Two will release on Friday.

00:00 Introduction

06:19 Political Tensions and Football

09:31 The Riot at Maksimir Stadium

16:36 Arkan's Criminal Background

25:04 Arkan's Bonkers Wedding and Return to War

27:23 The Rise and Fall of Arkan

29:39 Red Star Belgrade: Historical Context and Formation

31:13 The Intellectual and Working-Class Roots of Red Star

36:24 Red Star's European Struggles and Triumphs

39:52 The Escape and Signing of Miodrag Belodedici

44:32 The 1991 Season and Key Changes

47:48 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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The Death Match: Football, Resistance, and Myth in Nazi-Occupied Ukraine | Part Two

Fri, 25 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson bring their second and final part of their series on the Death Match, one of the most mythologized football games of all time.

Occurring in Nazi-occupied Kyiv, Ukraine, this match between Start, a team formed mostly of former Dinamo Kiev players, and Flakelf, a Luftwaffe team, has become a symbol of resistance. The hosts discuss the brutal context of the occupation, the complex legacies of the players, and the role football played in these extraordinary historical circumstances. Jonathan Wilson critically examines how much of the narrative is based on verifiable facts and how much may have been post-war Soviet propaganda.

This episode provides a nuanced understanding of how football intersected with geopolitics, resistance, and national identity during one of history's darkest periods.

00:00 Introduction to the Death Match Series

01:27 Historical Context: Nazi Occupation and Football

02:26 The Rise of Team Start

03:07 Early Matches and Growing Tensions

04:21 Embarrassing Defeats for Axis Teams

05:28 Public Perception and Propaganda

06:29 The Turning Point: German Concerns

14:13 The First Clash with Flakelf

18:05 Setting the Stage for the Death Match

26:06 The Referee's Influence and Game Dynamics

27:10 Halftime Tensions and Orders to Lose

28:39 Second Half and Controversial Moments

32:35 Post-Match Arrests and Interrogations

35:50 Life in the Prison Camp

43:10 Escape and Kyiv's Liberation

44:33 Legacy and Mythology of the Death Match

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The Death Match: Football, Resistance, and Myth in Nazi-Occupied Ukraine | Part One

Tue, 22 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the harrowing tale of 'The Death Match,' a match played under Nazi occupation in Ukraine.

They explore the brutal conditions faced by Ukrainian footballers, the formation of a remarkable team, and the resonances with modern-day conflicts. In Part One, learn how football resurfaced amidst atrocities, with bakery manager Yosyp Kordyk forming a team from former stars. The discussions cover the political intricacies and personal tragedies, setting the stage for the match itself.

Join us for Part Two on Friday, where the details of the game itself and its far-reaching consequences are revealed.

00:00 Introduction to the Yard Brigade

00:26 Welcome to the Podcast

00:53 The Mythologized Football Match

02:44 Escape to Victory and Its Origins

04:16 Introducing Joseph Cordick

05:49 The Nazi Occupation of Kiev

07:37 The Struggles of Mik Trivi

14:21 The Fall of Kiev and Its Aftermath

25:51 Ukrainian Nationalism and Football Under Nazi Occupation

27:34 The Horrors of Nazi Occupation in Kyiv

29:43 Football as a Means of Normalization

30:32 Resistance and Brutality in Kyiv

31:30 Formation of the Start Football Team

33:06 The Struggles and Symbolism of Playing Football

37:16 The First Match and Its Consequences

39:09 The Complexities of Resistance and Collaboration

49:14 The Aftermath and Public Perception

51:07 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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Colombia's El Dorado: Football vs Civil War

Fri, 18 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast hosted by Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson.

Today we bring you the fascinating story of the El Dorado League in 1940s Colombia. Discover how the government, amid a brutal civil war and the assassination of liberal leader Jorge Eliécer Gaitán, turned to football to pacify an unsettled population. Learn about the league's extraordinary formation, iconic players like Alfredo Di Stefano and Adolfo Pedernera, and the league's ultimate collapse. Join us for an in-depth look at an astonishing chapter in football history and its lasting impact.

00:00 The Role of Football in Political Control

01:43 The Assassination of Jorge Eliécer Gaitán

03:33 The Aftermath and Civil Unrest

14:12 The Rise of the El Dorado League

22:51 The Impact of Global Events on Colombian Football

29:29 Player Transfers and Union Arguments

30:36 Colombian Football's Golden Era Begins

32:30 The Arrival of International Stars

34:59 Challenges and Discontent Among Players

38:32 The Decline of the El Dorado League

50:00 Political Turmoil and Football's Role

54:54 Legacy and Modern Parallels

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The Takeover That Led to Chelsea's Club World Cup Glory

Tue, 15 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. After Chelsea's Club World Cup win at the weekend, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Nick Purewal, who discusses his book Sanctioned: The Inside Story of the Sale of Chelsea FC about the sanctioning of Roman Abramovich and the sale of Chelsea FC.

Here we give a unique insight into the unprecedented chaos surrounding Chelsea during their 2022 sale, including behind-the-scenes details of Abramovich's involvement in peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, a near-poisoning event, and the tumultuous sale process of the club that led to current owner Todd Boehly buying the club.

00:00 Introduction

04:51 Abramovich's Role and the War's Impact

07:35 The Rapid Downfall and Sanctions

16:04 Abramovich's Involvement in Peace Talks

19:28 The Poisoning Incident

26:10 Skepticism and Vindication

29:52 Legal Confusion and Government Challenges

31:47 Chelsea's Struggles Under Sanctions

35:23 The High-Stakes Sale Process

38:48 The Bidding War Heats Up

44:26 Jim Ratcliffe's Last-Minute Bid

50:10 The Aftermath and Reflections

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The Best Football Quiz Ever? It Was What It Was vs Football Cliches

Fri, 11 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In a week where we marked our 100th episode, we bring you the quiz between our podcast It Was What It Was against Football Cliches.

Without co-host Rob Draper, It Was What It Was brought in John Brewin alongside producer Pat Moore to join Jonathan Wilson in an epic battle against Football Cliches' Adam Hurrey, Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker.

Three rounds, five questions in each round and a final round of Premier League hunting grounds, in a classic battle for the ages!

If you enjoyed the podcast you can find Football Cliches episodes here: https://podfollow.com/new-football-cliches

Please note: This episode was released by our opponents in February 2025.

Please do review, comment and subscribe to It Was What It Was.

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Episode 100: Herbert Chapman, Huddersfield and Historic Three In A Row

Tue, 08 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. To mark our 100th episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper revisit one of the game’s true pioneers: Herbert Chapman. Long before his Arsenal legacy, Chapman transformed Huddersfield Town in the 1920s, laying the groundwork for modern football and guiding them to become the first club to win three consecutive top-flight league titles.

A century later, Jonathan and Rob delve into the tactical innovations, strategic thinking, and leadership that defined Chapman’s revolutionary approach. This episode brings Huddersfield’s golden era to life—and shows how Chapman’s influence still echoes through the game today, both on and off the pitch.

00:00 Introduction and Milestone Celebration

01:13 Herbert Chapman's Early Life and Career

03:31 Chapman's Tactical Innovations

11:19 Leeds City and Wartime Contributions

22:07 Post-War Challenges and Huddersfield Opportunity

27:44 Brighton's Replay and the Stuffed Donkey Incident

28:49 The Controversial FA Cup Final

30:33 Chapman's Tactical Innovations

34:00 Huddersfield's Rise to Glory

41:52 The Closest Title Race Ever?

46:32 Chapman's Legacy and Move to Arsenal

48:33 Conclusion and Reflections on Chapman's Impact

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How Abu Dhabi Took Over Manchester City | Part Two

Fri, 04 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In the second and final episode of our exploration into Abu Dhabi's takeover of Manchester City, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper uncover the strategic, political, and historical forces behind one of the most transformative moves in modern football.

Incorporating expert commentary from Dr. Chris Davison, author of Abu Dhabi: Oil and Beyond, this episode explores how a state-led investment in a football club became a powerful tool of international diplomacy. We trace the roots of Abu Dhabi’s global ambitions back to the oil boom of the 1970s and '80s, the legacy of Sheikh Zayed’s leadership, and the shifting political landscape following his death in 2004.

We also examine the rise of Sheikh Mansour, the tightening grip of autocracy, and the human rights questions that shadow this high-stakes project. From geopolitics in the Arab world to influence across Africa and the Indian subcontinent.

00:00 Introduction 01:30 The Foundation of UAE and Its Growth

02:57 Sheikh Zayed's Vision and Leadership

05:24 The Role of Women and Modernisation

08:37 The Al Nahyan Family Dynamics

12:47 The Manchester City Takeover

15:39 The Impact and Strategy Behind the Takeover

22:41 The Strategic Importance of Qatar and Abu Dhabi

23:29 Human Rights Concerns in Abu Dhabi

28:52 Worker Rights and Personal Accounts

31:38 The Yemeni War and Foreign Policy

34:59 Manchester City's Aggressive Strategy

36:19 Comparing Strategies: Abu Dhabi vs. Qatar

44:23 The Future of Manchester City

46:29 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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How Abu Dhabi Took Over Manchester City | Part One

Tue, 01 Jul 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the complex history behind the Abu Dhabi takeover of Manchester City. The discussion begins with a chilling recount of a 1984 assassination of UAE ambassador Khalifa Ahmad Mubarak, claimed by the Arab Revolutionary Brigades. This incident serves as a critical backdrop for understanding the motivations and geopolitical factors influencing contemporary Middle Eastern involvement in global sports. Jonathan and Rob look into the precarious position of Abu Dhabi, the history of the UAE's formation, and the significant figures like Khaldoon Al Barak and Sheikh Zed, shedding light on why Abu Dhabi has ventured into the world of football ownership and how this has reshaped not just Manchester City but football in general.

Join us on Friday for Part Two.

00:00 Tragic Assassination in Paris

00:54 Introduction to the Podcast

01:03 The Abu Dhabi Takeover of Manchester City

03:21 Comparing Abramovich and Sheik Mansour

04:29 The Shock of the 2008 Takeover

05:09 The Initial Skepticism and Rabino Signing

07:21 The Role of Solomon Al Faim

09:26 The Importance of Kaldoon Al Mubarak

15:41 The Aggressive Approach to Regulation

22:34 Massacre at Saia and Its Impact

24:25 Khaldoon Al Mubarak's Background

27:19 Transformation of Abu Dhabi

32:23 Discovery of Oil and Its Implications

43:19 Formation of the United Arab Emirates

44:50 Challenges from Regional Powers

45:56 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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The Fall of Diego Maradona | Part Two

Fri, 27 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, Jonathan and Rob look into the tragic and fascinating latter years of Diego Maradona's professional football career during the 1990s.

Jonathan and Rob explore Maradona's struggles with cocaine addiction, legal troubles, and numerous attempts to revive his career amidst a national crisis for Argentina's football team. From his return to his parents' hometown to his controversial time at the 1994 World Cup, follow Maradona's tumultuous journey as he battles to maintain his footballing legacy.

Please rate, review, and recommend the podcast.

00:00 Introduction to Argentina's Turbulent Football History

00:33 Diego Maradona's Struggles and Return

01:09 Argentina's National Team Crisis

01:56 Maradona's Controversial Comeback

05:01 Challenges with Argentine Football Culture

10:38 Maradona's Legal and Personal Battles

16:56 Road to the 1994 World Cup

24:41 Maradona's Defense and Consequences

26:16 Public Reaction and Media Coverage

27:30 Argentinian Utopianism and Football

31:12 Maradona's Struggles and Ban

36:38 Attempted Comeback and Managerial Stints

38:16 Final Matches and Retirement

48:22 Legacy and Future Stories

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The Fall of Diego Maradona | Part One

Tue, 24 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring a two-part special focussing on the decline of one of the greatest footballers ever, Diego Maradona.

In part one, our co-hosts talk about Maradona's struggles with drug addiction, failed drug tests, and his eventual 15-month ban from football after a positive cocaine test in 1991. Despite these challenges, Maradona's impact on both the Napoli and Argentina national teams remained significant. Discover the infamous 5-0 defeat of Argentina by Colombia in 1993 and explore why the nation clamoured for Maradona's return to save their 1994 World Cup hopes. The episode provides a comprehensive look at Maradona's turbulent years leading up to his attempts at making a comeback.

Join us on Friday for Part Two.

00:00 Introduction and Context

00:30 The Decline of Diego Maradona

02:01 The Infamous Argentina vs. Colombia Match

04:57 The Fallout and National Disgrace

10:48 Maradona's Cultural Significance

16:04 Maradona's Turbulent Life in Naples

23:51 Maradona's Decline and Struggles with Fitness

25:19 Cocaine Scandal and Legal Troubles

26:53 The Fake Penis Incident and Drug Test

30:53 Maradona's Radical Detox and Support System

34:17 Political Context and Maradona's Popularity

39:52 Return to Football and Move to Sevilla

44:04 Struggles in Sevilla and Final Decline

47:52 Personal Breakdown and Return to Roots

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Club World Cup Chaos: Part Two - Man United, Brazil, and Hang Gliding with Roy Keane!

Fri, 20 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

With the Club World Cup underway, we wrap up the week with Part Two of our Origin Story series, focusing on Manchester United’s chaotic 2000 Club World Cup campaign in Brazil.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper unpack United’s controversial decision to withdraw from the FA Cup, the disorganised nature of the tournament, and the fiery clash between European entitlement and South American intensity.

Plus, we'll hear about the now-legendary story of Roy Keane, Teddy Sheringham, and Nicky Butt hang gliding over Rio - doing their best to stay out of sight of Sir Alex Ferguson!

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

And don't forget to subscribe to our new show Stick to Cricket, wherever you get your podcasts!

00:00 English Expectations and Brazilian Strength

00:48 Introduction to the Double History Podcast

00:58 The Infamous 2000 Club World Cup

02:01 FIFA's Ambitions and the Club World Cup

03:36 The Controversial Decision: Manchester United's Dilemma

04:27 Global Participation and FIFA's Motivations

07:09 Political Pressures and England's World Cup Bid

22:09 Manchester United's PR Disaster in Brazil

25:18 The Tournament Begins: Double Header in Sao Paulo

26:17 The Shabby Stadium and Initial Matches

27:16 David Beckham's Red Card Incident

28:22 United's Aloof Image and Public Relations Disaster

29:26 Tournament Progress and Group Stage Results

30:07 Vasco's Dominance Over Manchester United

33:11 Gary Neville's Struggles and Team Support

38:37 United's PR Disaster in Rio

40:13 Impact on United's Season and Future Tournaments

42:06 Reflections on the Club World Cup

50:43 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell

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Club World Cup Chaos: Part One - The Origin Story

Tue, 17 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week, with the Club World Cup underway, Rob and Jonathan delve into its chaotic and often violent origins!

They explore how the early intercontinental tournaments were organised, from the first attempts in the late 19th century to the ultimate establishment of the Toyota Cup.

We'll hear about infamous clashes between Celtic and Racing Club, and Manchester United and Estudiantes.

Join us for part two on Friday, where we continue the journey into the modern era of the tournament and discuss the controversial 32-team format in the USA.

(Apologies for a few audio issues with Rob's mic this week!)

00:00 Introduction and Financial Woes

00:21 The Club World Cup: Origins and Early Years

01:31 Early International Competitions

03:59 The Quest for a World Champion

08:07 The First Recognized World Club Tournament

13:41 The Sir Thomas Lipton Trophy

16:50 The Copa Rio: A New Era

23:16 Controversial Withdrawal and Unsatisfactory Victory

23:37 Rebranding and Decline of the Tournament

24:02 Violence and Domestic Dominance

25:01 The Little World Cup in Venezuela

26:46 The International Soccer League in the US

28:47 European and South American Club Competitions

30:45 The Birth of the Intercontinental Cup

35:34 Violence and Controversy in the Intercontinental Cup

41:36 Decline of the Intercontinental Cup

44:06 The Toyota Cup Era

45:23 The Expanded Club World Cup

46:33 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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Offside! The 1925 Rule That Changed Football

Fri, 13 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Please note: Apologies for the audio issues in the first 10 minutes of the show.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast, with co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson.

Today we are joined by special guest David Owen, former sports editor of the Financial Times and author of multiple books on sports history. In this episode, the trio delves deep into the significant alteration of the offside rule on June 13, 1925, and how this monumental change impacted football. From the tactical transformations it spurred, like the introduction of the WM formation and the rise of the centre half role, to its broader effects on the game's entertainment value and popularity, the discussion covers it all.

Join us as we explore one of the most pivotal adjustments in football history and its lasting legacy.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

01:08 The 1925 Offside Rule Change

02:21 Historical Context of Offside Rule

02:55 Early 20th Century Offside Tactics

05:01 Impact of the 1925 Rule Change

12:27 Adaptations and Innovations

19:04 Immediate Effects in England

26:03 Notable Goal Scoring Feats

27:42 Astonishing Cup Run and Relegation Drama

29:05 Impact of the 1925 Offside Law Change

32:03 Defensive Strategies and Adaptations

34:15 Tactical Innovations and the WM Formation

42:04 Evolution of Player Roles and Transfer Market

53:32 Global Differences and Final Thoughts

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Zambia 2012: Africa's Greatest Fairytale

Tue, 10 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In today’s episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore one of the most powerful stories in football history: Zambia’s remarkable triumph at the 2012 Africa Cup of Nations.

Jonathan, who covered the 2012 tournament on the ground, shares firsthand reflections of what he calls the most emotional press box moment he’s ever experienced.

Nineteen years after a devastating plane crash claimed the lives of their national squad, Zambia rose from the ashes to claim continental glory. This episode retraces their journey - from the tragedy off the coast of Gabon in 1993, the rebuilding efforts led by legendary captain Kalusha Bwalya, right through to their unforgettable victory on penalties in the very same country that witnessed their darkest hour.

00:00 The Final Match: A Battle Beyond the Pitch

00:15 Introduction to an Inspiring and Tragic Football Story

00:36 Zambia's Uplifting Victory After Tragedy

02:26 The 1993 Plane Crash: A National Tragedy

04:37 Zambia's Football Rise in the Late 80s

08:15 The Aftermath of the Crash and the Struggle for Resources

18:42 Rebuilding the Team: The Role of Kaia and New Coaches

24:01 The 2012 African Cup of Nations Journey

25:06 The Quarterfinals and Beyond

27:01 Gabon vs. Mali: A Penalty Heartbreak

27:30 Unexpected Journey to Bata

31:12 Ghana's Complacency and Zambia's Rise

38:38 The Emotional Beach Ceremony

40:27 The Dramatic Final Against Ivory Coast

51:10 Zambia's Historic Victory

52:16 Reflecting on the Significance

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Luis Enrique: Triumph, Tragedy, and PSG's Champions League Glory

Fri, 06 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the remarkable life and career of Luis Enrique, fresh off delivering Paris Saint-Germain’s first-ever Champions League title.

From leading Barcelona to a historic treble in 2015 to now rewriting PSG's narrative in Europe, Enrique’s managerial legacy is already carved into footballing folklore. But behind the silverware lies a deeply personal story; one of resilience, heartbreak, and unshakable determination.

In 2019, Enrique stepped away from football during his time as Spain’s national team coach after the tragic death of his 9-year-old daughter, Xana, who lost her battle with bone cancer. The podcast reflects on how he faced unimaginable grief and later returned to the sidelines with a renewed sense of focus, channeling his pain into purpose.

We also explore the lesser-known side of Enrique — the ultramarathon runner, the iron-willed competitor, and the fitness fanatic who demanded relentless physical commitment from his players. His obsession with endurance has shaped not only the way his teams play but also the culture he instills: high pressing, relentless movement, and mental toughness.

Where does Luis Enrique’s legacy stand now? From Gijón to Camp Nou to Paris, and from personal tragedy to professional triumph — this is a story of more than just football. It’s about the making of a modern great.

0:00 Introduction and Personal Reflection

00:32 Luis Enrique's Early Life and Background

04:15 Football Beginnings and Early Career

07:03 Transition to Real Madrid and Barcelona

16:06 International Career and Notable Incidents

22:52 Post-Playing Career and Coaching Beginnings

29:07 Luis Enrique's Coaching Journey

31:01 Barcelona's Missed Opportunity with Luis Enrique

32:36 Luis Enrique's Success at Celta Vigo

32:49 Barcelona's Second Chance with Luis Enrique

35:41 The Messi Conundrum

37:54 Luis Enrique's Triumphs and Challenges at Barcelona

44:53 The Tragic Loss of Luis Enrique's Daughter

47:15 Return to the Spanish National Team

52:26 Luis Enrique's Tenure at PSG

01:00:36 The Emotional Impact of Luis Enrique's Journey

01:02:41 Conclusion and Reflections

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Why Brazil Have Turned To Carlo Ancelotti

Tue, 03 Jun 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore a landmark moment in the sport: Brazil, for the first time in its storied history, has appointed a sole foreign manager, Carlo Ancelotti.

As he prepares to lead the Seleção in his first match on Friday against Ecuador, the episode unpacks the significance of his move to Brazil.

They examine Ancelotti’s coaching philosophy, tracing its roots to his mentor Nils Liedholm and the enduring influence of Hungarian football. The conversation spans decades and continents—from the intellectual cafés of Budapest to the shifting tactical landscape of South America. Along the way, they reflect on the evolution of Brazilian coaching and the global reach of Hungarian tactical innovation.

Join them for a compelling look at the past, present, and future of football strategy, and discover how Ancelotti’s arrival in Brazil could be a return to their roots.

00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes

00:37 Historic Day for Brazil: Foreign Manager Appointed

01:15 Carlo Ancelotti's Coaching Philosophy

01:55 Brazil's Foreign Coaching History

04:56 The Dominance of Argentinian Coaches in South America

06:04 Brazilian Football's Tactical Evolution

10:30 Hungarian Influence on Brazilian Football

20:56 Brazil's World Cup Preparations and Challenges

26:13 Brazil's Struggles Against European Teams

27:49 Modern Era: Brazil's Coaching Crisis

29:11 Analysing the Decline of Brazilian Football

30:01 The Influence of European Coaching

30:22 The Role of Brazilian Midfielders

30:37 Recent Brazilian Coaches and Their Struggles

31:38 The Turning Point: Italy 1982

32:10 Introduction to Carlo Ancelotti's Appointment

32:49 Carlo Ancelotti's Mentorship and Legacy

35:27 The Hungarian Influence on Modern Football

38:33 The Swedish Connection and Coaching Philosophy

40:22 The Rise of IFK Norrköping

48:28 The Formation of the Gre-No-Li Trio

51:27 Carlo Ancelotti's Impact on Brazilian Football

55:12 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Paris Saint-Germain's Journey: Chasing the Champions League Dream

Fri, 30 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this episode, Jonathan and Rob explore the history of Paris Saint-Germain ahead of their Champions League final against Inter Milan.

Join us as we uncover the intriguing journey of PSG - and their transformation from a club with little history to a European powerhouse. Rob and Jonathan explore the significant matches, the controversial ownership and the club's elusive quest for Champions League glory.

For more build-up to the Champions League Final - listen to our episode on Inter Milan - The Birth of the Catenaccio - released earlier this week.

00:00 Introduction to the Football History Podcast

01:08 PSG's Humble Beginnings

02:59 The Formation of PSG

04:30 Challenges and Controversies

06:53 The Role of Media and Public Support

08:48 The Birth of Paris Saint-Germain

11:10 The Struggle for Identity

14:38 The Rise of PSG

20:12 Fashion and Football: The Daniel Hechter Era

25:27 Financial Misconduct in French Football

26:15 PSG's Rise in the 1980s

27:20 Early European Struggles

28:41 Financial Turmoil and Media Takeover

30:32 Golden Years and European Semi-Final Curse

33:31 Qatari Takeover and Controversies

41:45 Branding and Big Signings

46:31 Modern Challenges and Future Prospects

50:12 Conclusion and Champions League final thoughts

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Herrera's Inter Milan: The Birth of the Catenaccio

Tue, 27 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to this Champions League special episode of It Was What It Was with hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson. In this episode, they dive deep into the rich tactical history of Inter Milan, tracing the origins and impact of the famous Catenaccio system introduced by legendary coach Helenio Herrera in the 1960s. They explore Herrera's significant influence on modern football management, his controversial methods, and the eventual decline of his tactical system. Additionally, the hosts draw parallels between Herrera's era and Inter Milan's current approach under Simone Inzaghi, highlighting how historical tactics still resonate today as they face PSG in

Join us at the end of the week as we turn our attention to PSG's history, as they look to win the Champions League for the first time.

00:00 Introduction

00:19 Champions League Special: Setting the Scene

00:34 Helena Herrera: The Tactical Genius

01:56 The Birth of Catenaccio

02:56 Karl Rappan and the Swiss Influence

08:43 Catenaccio's Evolution in Italy

13:31 The Rise of Inter Milan

19:02 Herrera's Early Career and Philosophy

27:31 Herrera's Impact at Barcelona

29:54 Transition to Inter Milan

30:07 Inter's Turbulent Coaching History

30:39 Helenio Herrera's Arrival and Impact

31:17 Herrera's Strict Regimen and Control

34:55 Tactical Innovations and Success

42:06 Controversies and Criticisms

49:31 The Decline of Herrera's Inter

56:50 Legacy and Modern Comparisons

01:02:19 Conclusion and Upcoming Content

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1984/85: The Season that Shook English Football, Part Two - Heysel

Fri, 23 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper focus on the 1984/85 season that changed English football, with Part One focussing on the numerous fan violence incidents then the tragedy of the Bradford fire as 56 fans lost their lives.

Today, in part two, Tony Evans, former sports editor at The Times and author of 'Two Tribes' and 'Far Foreign Land' joins the show to talk about Heysel.

In this episode, Tony Evans shares his harrowing experiences and poignant reflections on the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985, when 39 football fans tragically lost their lives during the European Cup Final between Liverpool and Juventus. The discussion covers the chaotic events leading up to the disaster, the atmosphere in Brussels, and the aftermath, both immediate and long-term, for football and fan culture.

Don't miss this in-depth exploration of one of the darkest days in football history.

00:00 Introducing the Podcast and Special Guest Tony Evans

02:15 Liverpool in 1985: A City and Club in Turmoil

02:30 The Violent Year: Football and Social Unrest

05:09 The Day of the Heysel Disaster: Personal Accounts

07:46 Chaos in Brussels: The Build-Up to Tragedy

16:57 The Collapse: Mismanagement and Miscommunication

27:45 The Aftermath: Reactions and Reflections

30:35 The Aftermath of the Tragedy

31:43 Personal Recollections and Impact

32:26 Documentary Insights and Victim Stories

34:56 Chaos and Confusion at the Stadium

38:25 The Decision to Continue the Game

49:08 Reflections on Fan Behaviour and Consequences

51:27 The Broader Context and Political Reactions

53:48 Long-term Changes in Football Culture

58:38 Concluding Thoughts on the Tragedy

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1984/85: The Season that Shook English Football, Part One

Tue, 20 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was When It Was, the football history podcast.

This week we're focussing on the 1984-85 footballing season - arguably the bleakest time in English football history - that changed the game forever.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper begin the first of two episodes covering the violence, tragedy, and upheaval of this period and the wider context of football hooliganism in the first half, whilst the second half of part one pays tribute to the horrific Bradford Fire that claimed 56 lives 40 years ago.

Explore gripping firsthand accounts, the reactions of key figures, and the societal and institutional issues that plagued the sport, leading to safety measures and ultimately, a transformation in football culture.

Join us on Friday as we are joined by Tony Evans to talk about the Heysel tragedy that happened at the end of May in 1985.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

01:09 Reflecting on the 1984-85 Season

02:47 The Bradford Fire Tragedy

04:00 Football's Decrepit Stadiums

06:31 Chelsea vs. Sunderland: Milk Cup Semi-Final Chaos

12:36 Luton vs. Millwall: FA Cup Violence

26:35 Birmingham vs. Leeds: Championship Decider Mayhem

29:10 Fans Fight Back and Prolonged Chaos

30:52 Medieval Fortress and Perimeter Fences

31:59 Racism and Aggression in Football Culture

33:15 Introduction to the Bradford Fire

35:04 The Start of the Fire and Initial Reactions

36:16 Rapid Escalation and Desperate Attempts to Escape

38:20 Heartbreaking Personal Accounts and Immediate Aftermath

47:16 Investigations and Controversies

50:57 Negligence and Legal Consequences

57:30 Broader Implications and Future Changes

59:24 Conclusion and Preview of Next Episode

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Verona's Miracle Season: The Story of the 1985 Serie A Champions

Fri, 16 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast! Join co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they welcome special guest Richard Hough, author of 'Verona Capone, the Miracle of 85'. In this episode, Richard delves into the extraordinary story of Hellas Verona's incredible 1984-85 Serie A title win. From the chaotic Italian football landscape of the 1980s, managerial masterstrokes, and key foreign signings, to the unforgettable moments and lasting impact on the city of Verona, this episode is a deep dive into one of football's most romantic underdog stories. Join us as we explore how a small provincial team conquered giants like AC Milan and Juventus to achieve an unexpected and historic league victory.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

01:02 Setting the Scene: 1980s Italian Football

02:21 Verona's Rise to Glory

03:28 Economic and Social Context

05:08 Key Players and Strategic Moves

12:15 Tactical Insights and Coaching Philosophy

15:15 Foreign Players and Their Impact

22:55 The Perfect Season Opener

25:04 The Opening Goal and Season Kickoff

25:29 Verona's Iconic Moments and Key Players

30:05 The Turning Point in the Season

33:01 The Final Stretch to the Title

40:42 Celebrations and Legacy

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Crystal Palace 1990: Eagles' FA Cup Heroics and the Final that Saved Sir Alex

Tue, 13 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

It’s FA Cup final week, with Manchester City set to take on Crystal Palace at Wembley. In this episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper revisit the dramatic story of Palace’s remarkable run to the 1990 FA Cup Final.

Just months after a crushing 9-0 defeat to Liverpool, Crystal Palace stunned the same side in a sensational 4-3 semi-final — a match still regarded as one of the greatest in FA Cup history. That victory set up a final against Sir Alex Ferguson’s Manchester United, who, at the time, were still chasing their first trophy under his management.

Today, we delve into where Crystal Palace stood as a club in 1990, explore their tactical shifts, highlight standout performances — especially the impact of Ian Wright — and examine Manchester United’s situation under Ferguson, including the pivotal moments that led to his first silverware with the club. We also examine whether Palace could shock Manchester City and finally win the FA Cup for the first time in their history.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

02:23 Crystal Palace's Journey to the Semis

03:37 Televised Semifinals and Hillsborough's Impact

11:55 Crystal Palace's Tactical Shift

15:17 The Dramatic Semifinal Match

20:39 Crystal Palace's Historic FA Cup Final

21:06 Manchester United's Journey to the 1990 FA Cup Final

25:55 Ian Wright's Miraculous Comeback

28:35 The Replay and Ferguson's First Trophy

31:56 Comparing Crystal Palace Eras

36:05 Can Crystal Palace Upset Manchester City?

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Goodbye Goodison Park: The End of an Era at Everton

Fri, 09 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In today's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper look back on the rich history of Goodison Park, Everton's storied home ground, as it approaches its final days.

From setting the history into the building of the iconic stadium to picking out unforgettable matches to legendary players, relive iconic moments such as Dixie Dean's record-setting 60 goals in one season, Eusebio's praise at the 1966 World Cup, the famous 1994 relegation battle against Wimbledon and Wayne Rooney's spectacular goal against Arsenal.

Join us as we celebrate the legacy of one of England's most beloved football stadiums.

What's your favourite Goodison Park memory? Get in touch on @ItWasPod on X.

Please don't forget to leave a review and recommend to your friends!

00:00 Introduction and Opening Remarks

00:33 The Significance of Goodison Park

01:44 Architectural and Historical Insights

04:32 Memorable Matches and Moments

07:11 Archibald Leitch's Legacy

26:15 Everton's last day survival in 1994 and Match-Fixing Scandal

29:33 The1966 World Cup

40:34 Dixie Dean's 60th Goal of the season

47:27 Wayne Rooney's Stunning Debut Goal

49:44 Farewell to Goodison Park

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Harry Kane's Road to Silverware

Tue, 06 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Today co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak of the remarkable journey of Harry Kane, who recently clinched the Bundesliga title with Bayern Munich; the first trophy in his career.

Recounting his early days at Arsenal youth, to multiple rejections, and loan spells that nearly derailed his career, the episode highlights Kane’s undeterred determination and resilience. Discover how pivotal moments and key influences, such as Mauricio Pochettino and a documentary on Tom Brady, transformed him into one of football’s greatest strikers.

We end with a quiz, as Rob tests Jonathan's knowledge of British and Irish players who won major league titles abroad!

00:00 Introduction: A Childhood Memory

00:35 The Arsenal Release: A Turning Point

00:43 Celebrating Harry Kane's Achievements

01:02 The Early Struggles and Resilience

02:36 Harry Kane's Background and Family

03:06 Youth Football Journey

05:38 Challenges and Determination

14:27 Loan Spells and Growth

18:40 Millwall Experience and Growing Up

21:34 Norwich Loan: A Tough Period

27:16 Unexpected Laughter and Player Comparisons

28:02 Struggles at Leicester City

29:36 Turning Point: The Tom Brady Inspiration

31:13 Breakthrough Under Sherwood

32:33 Skepticism and Early Success

35:04 Pochettino's Influence and Physical Transformation

38:36 Near Misses and Final Disappointments

43:12 Legacy and Comparisons with Other Greats

47:43 Quiz on British and Irish Players Abroad

52:59 Conclusion and Reflections on Harry Kane's Career

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Top of the Kop - Liverpool Title Wins Ranked

Fri, 02 May 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this week’s episode, we turn our attention to Liverpool’s extraordinary journey through their history, culminating in Arne Slot’s Premier League title-winning side.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper trace the club’s legacy from its early 20th-century triumphs to modern-day glory.

They explore the tactical revolutions under legendary managers like Bill Shankly and Bob Paisley, the brilliance of iconic players in Kenny Dalglish and Ian Rush, and the resurgence under Jürgen Klopp. The episode also highlights how Arne Slot has carried that legacy forward, building on the foundations laid by his predecessors.

Where does the 2024/25 Liverpool title winners rank amongst the club's greatest ever teams? Get in touch with @ItWasPod on X to let us know!

00:00 Introduction to Liverpool's Journey

01:42 Early Liverpool Champions: 1901-1923

02:42 The Impact of Tom Watson

06:24 Liverpool's Defensive Strengths

07:46 Post-War Liverpool: Nutrition and Success

08:46 The Rise of Billy Liddell

10:17 Jack Balmer's Unlikely Heroics

15:20 Liverpool's First Five Titles

16:34 Bill Shankly's Legacy

20:55 Bob Paisley's Tactical Brilliance

26:18 Liverpool's Dominance in the Late 70s

27:12 Liverpool's Dominant Back Four

27:52 Dalglish vs. Keegan: Who's Better?

29:08 The Greatest Liverpool Side of All Time?

29:54 European Cup Draw and Unfortunate Knockout

33:29 Transition to the Kenny Dalglish Era

37:53 Impact of Hillsborough and the 1989 Season

41:55 Liverpool's Modern Era and Klopp's Influence

46:46 Future Prospects and Final Thoughts

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The Man Behind Liverpool’s 20th Title - Arne Slot’s story

Tue, 29 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Liverpool wrapped up their 20th English league title at the weekend, so today co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper focus on the fascinating career of manager Arne Slot who has won the Premier League at his first attempt at Anfield.

Beginning with his unique upbringing in a football-centric Dutch Bible Belt town, we explore how watching his father coach from a young age shaped Slot's tactical mind, travel through his early playing days, his reputation as a tactician, and his impressive managerial stints that led him to win the Eredivisie with Feyenoord and now the Premier League with Liverpool.

On Friday, Jonathan and Rob will assess where Slot's Liverpool title winners sit in Liverpool's glorious history.

00:00 Introduction: A Coach's Son

00:40 Early Life and Background of Arne Slot

01:26 The Dutch Football Culture

03:01 Influence of Johan Cruyff and Total Football

05:02 Arne Slot's Youth and Early Football Education

07:11 Professional Career Beginnings

13:40 Tactical Innovations and Coaching Philosophy

21:58 The Early Coaching Journey of Arne Slot

23:14 Challenges and Successes at Cambuur

25:56 Influence of Pep Guardiola and Data Analytics

29:10 Rise at AZ Alkmaar

34:43 Success at Feyenoord and Coaching Style

43:45 Legacy and Future Prospects

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Barcelona vs Inter: Pep, José, and the Semi-Final That Defined an Era – Part Two

Fri, 25 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

It's time for Part Two of Pep vs Jose! As Barcelona and Inter prepare to face off once again in this year’s Champions League semi-final, we look back at the original - a tie that shaped modern football.

Guardiola vs Mourinho. All-out attack vs. tactical defiance. Ideology, rivalry - maybe even good vs. evil?

Fifteen years ago, Pep’s all-conquering Barcelona met Jose's Inter Milan in a Champions League semi-final that didn’t just decide who reached the final - it helped define a footballing era.

Having set the scene in part one, Rob and Jonathan relive the incredible semi-final battles, where Mourinho would ultimately dethrone Guardiola in an incredible second-leg at the Nou Camp - which saw a controversial sending off, late drama and an iconic pitch celebration.

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00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene

00:45 The Clash of Philosophies: Mourinho vs. Guardiola

01:32 The Tactical Battle Begins

04:32 The Volcano Eruption and Its Impact

10:24 First Leg Highlights and Analysis

13:18 Ibrahimović's Conflict and Mourinho's Mind Games

18:06 The Build-Up to the Second Leg

25:23 The Myth of the Decision

25:41 The Controversial Red Card

26:54 Conspiracy Theories and Psychological Influence

27:52 The Clash of Good vs. Evil

28:34 Tactical Fouling and Pep's Cynical Side

29:59 Marina's Critique of Barcelona's Tactics

31:37 Inter's Defensive Masterclass

34:13 The Struggle Against Possession Football

36:38 The Final Moments and Disallowed Goal

40:03 Marino's Triumphant Celebration

43:16 The Aftermath and Legacy

46:43 The Tactical Evolution in Football

48:58 The Importance of Non-Possession Football

50:28 Conclusion and Reflections

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Barcelona vs Inter: Pep, José, and the Era-Defining Semi-Final - Part One

Tue, 22 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was.

As Barcelona and Inter prepare to face off once again in this year’s Champions League semi-final, we look back at the original - a tie that shaped modern football.

Pep Guardiola vs. José Mourinho. All-out attack vs. tactical defiance. Ideology, rivalry - maybe even good vs. evil?

Fifteen years ago, Pep’s all-conquering Barcelona met Mourinho’s Inter Milan in a Champions League semi-final that didn’t just decide who reached the final - it helped define a footballing era.

In Part One, Rob and Jonathan set the scene: how Mourinho’s Inter came to challenge the most dominant team in the world, the tactics he used, the battles he fought in Italy, and how both sides arrived at this collision point chasing domestic and European glory.

Part Two drops Friday, where Rob and Jonathan break down the epic semi-final itself.

00:00 Barcelona's Football Perfection

01:48 Mourinho vs. Guardiola: A Rivalry Begins

02:47 The Dark Side of Mourinho

03:25 Star Wars Analogies and Football Tactics

06:53 Mourinho's Seven-Point Plan

07:45 Mourinho's Philosophy and Evolution

08:43 Mourinho's Journey to Inter Milan

09:58 Cultural Expectations and Pragmatic Football

12:23 Mourinho's Press Conference Antics

13:44 Mourinho's Linguistic Brilliance

14:49 Mourinho's Training Philosophy

20:04 Key Matches and Tactical Shifts

21:16 Mourinho's First Season at Inter

22:27 Transfer Drama: Stars on the Move

23:51 Barcelona's Dominance and Challenges

26:40 Inter's Journey to the Semifinals

28:57 Mourinho's Tactical Mastery

32:29 Controversies and Confrontations

40:24 The Road to the Semifinals

43:57 Setting the Stage for the Epic Semifinal

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The Horse That Changed Manchester United: The Glazer Takeover - Part Two

Fri, 18 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was. It's time for part two of our look at the unexpected role a horse would play in the controversial takeover of Manchester United by the Glazer family.

The episode covers the period of the Glazer acquisition, the impact of their ownership, and the financial manoeuvres that transformed the club.

From Alex Ferguson's complicated relationship with the Glazers to the missed opportunities and recruitment challenges that followed, this episode gives an in-depth look at how Manchester United's fate was sealed - and the horse that might have started it all!

00:00 The Decline of Manchester United: A 20-Year Journey

00:20 Introduction to the Football History Podcast

00:48 The Gibraltar Incident and Its Fallout

01:26 The Glazers' Takeover: A Turning Point

02:24 The Financial Strategy of the Glazers

02:54 The Early Signs of Trouble

03:58 The Glazers' Background and Business Practices

04:48 The Impact of Global Capital on Football

06:24 The Glazers' Vision and Strategy

08:43 The Financial Mechanics of the Takeover

10:41 The Role of Debt in Modern Football

11:54 The Glazers' Financial Maneuvering

14:32 The Aftermath and Long-Term Consequences

16:15 The Glazers' Legacy and Future Implications

18:26 The Financial Crisis and Its Impact on Football

20:57 The Leveraged Buyout Explained

22:52 The Final Stages of the Takeover

30:47 The Glazer Takeover and Initial Success

31:17 Fan Protests and Opposition

34:52 Financial Strain and Missed Opportunities

37:32 The Role of Ed Woodward

43:18 Transfer Market Failures

46:15 Managerial Missteps

53:37 The Glazers' Disconnect and Conclusion

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The Horse That Changed Manchester United - Part One with David Walsh

Tue, 15 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In today's episode, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by journalist David Walsh to explore how the modern fortunes of Manchester United are intertwined with one of the greatest racehorses in history.

This is the extraordinary story of Rock of Gibraltar, the famed racehorse part-owned by Sir Alex Ferguson - and how his connections and relationships with John Magnier, and JP McManus would ultimately impact the Glazers' takeover of Manchester United.

David Walsh shares insider details from his investigative work on the story, making this one of the most fascinating sports sagas of recent times.

Tune in on Friday for part two, and the implications of the Glazers' takeover - and Manchester United's decline.

00:00 The Tale of the Lost Kingdom

00:25 Introduction to the Podcast and Special Guest

00:35 The Story of Rock of Gibraltar

01:25 David Walsh's Insights

02:28 The Connection Between Sir Alex Ferguson and John Magner

07:36 The Rise of Rock of Gibraltar

17:21 The Dispute Over Ownership

19:26 The Financial Implications

29:04 Ownership Dispute and Legal Battle

29:52 High Court Drama and Stakeholder Tensions

30:50 Public Fallout and Media Frenzy

34:02 Settlement and Aftermath

38:39 The Glazers' Takeover

41:35 Reflecting on Missed Opportunities

49:45 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Brendon Batson: Football Pioneer and Big Ron Betrayal - Part Two

Fri, 11 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was for part two of our interview with Brendan Batson, a trailblazer in English football.

Brendon tells Jonathan and Rob about his impactful time at West Bromwich Albion as part of the iconic 'Three Degrees' with Cyrille Regis and Laurie Cunningham.

We discuss his teammates, the tragic losses and his work to combat racism. Brendon also gives us an insight into the personal impact of his former manager Ron Atkinson's notorious comments on live television.

00:00 Introduction and Overview

01:07 Brendan Batson's Early Career and Challenges

03:00 The China Tour Experience

06:20 The Three Degrees Phenomenon

12:32 Impact and Legacy of Black Players

18:37 Knee Injury and Career Transition

20:10 Coaching Courses and Philosophies

24:24 The Evolution of a Coaching Philosophy

24:42 The One-Size-Fits-All Approach

25:50 Player Welfare and Career Transitions

27:59 Tragic Losses and Their Impact

28:38 The Legacy of Laurie Cunningham

32:33 Racism in Football: A Personal Betrayal

38:20 The Complexity of Racism in Football

41:21 The Fight Against Racism: Past and Present

46:17 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections

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Brendon Batson: Arsenal's Trailblazer and the Three Degrees Legacy - Part One

Tue, 08 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was. This week Jonathan and Rob welcome special guest Brendan Batson, a former Arsenal, Cambridge, and West Brom player - who made a significant impact on British social and footballing history.

Part one focuses on Batson's early life in Grenada and Trinidad, his challenges adapting to the British climate in the 1960s, and becoming Arsenal's first black player.

Join us for part two on Friday where Brendan recalls his time at West Brom - and the birth of the famous 'Three Degrees'.

00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement

01:21 Brendan Batson's Early Life and Migration to England

03:18 Adapting to Life in England and Discovering Football

06:34 Challenges and Racism in Early Years

11:48 The Windrush Generation and Social Context

14:48 Racism in Football and the National Front

19:13 Conclusion of Part One

20:00 Scouted by Arsenal: The Beginning of a Football Journey

21:23 Challenges and Triumphs: Early Arsenal Days

22:38 Facing Racism: The Harsh Realities of the 60s and 70s

25:06 Breaking Barriers: Becoming Arsenal's First Black Player

27:44 Struggles with Racism on the Field

31:36 Guidance and Growth: Learning to Cope

34:32 Career Progression: From Arsenal to Cambridge and Beyond

36:33 Ron Atkinson's Influence: A Turning Point

37:41 Conclusion: Reflecting on a Pioneering Career

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Cameroon at Italia ‘90: England Showdown and Legacy - Part Two

Fri, 04 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, and part two of our look at Cameroon’s extraordinary journey at the 1990 World Cup.

With their stunning opening victory against defending champions Argentina and making history as the first African team to reach the quarter-finals, Cameroon’s story is one of resilience, brilliance, and pure football magic.

Facing England in a gripping quarter-final showdown against stars like Paul Gascoigne and Gary Lineker, the Indomitable Lions captivated the world in one of the World Cup’s greatest underdog stories.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

00:00 Introduction and Initial Setup

00:19 Chaos and Preparation for the World Cup

01:25 Cameroon's Opening Game Against Argentina

02:45 Diego Maradona's Challenges

04:56 Cameroon's Tactical Adjustments

07:35 FIFA's New Rules and Refereeing Challenges

11:35 Cameroon's Historic Victory Over Argentina

15:04 Advancing Through the Group Stage

20:41 Facing Colombia in the Knockout Stage

23:39 Cliffhanger: Preparing to Face England

24:32 England's Quarter-Final Prospects

25:25 Scouting Cameroon: Underestimations and Realities

27:32 Tunnel Tensions and Early Game Dynamics

29:37 Cameroon's Tactical Surprises

33:46 England's Tactical Adjustments

40:54 Cameroon's Legacy and African Football Challenges

50:07 Concluding Thoughts on Cameroon 1990

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Cameroon at Italia ‘90: Roger Milla and the Legend of the Indomitable Lions - Part One

Tue, 01 Apr 2025 04:00:00 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson look back at one of the most iconic footballing stories of all time: Cameroon’s 1990 World Cup.

Jonathan and Rob look at the chaotic preparations behind Cameroon's campaign, discussing last-minute squad upheaval, internal conflicts between teammates, and the unexpected recall of a man who would become a legend: Roger Milla.

In the build up to the tournament's opening game against defending champions Argentina, there were turbulent training camps, political interferences, and a complete lack of confidence in the squad. That would all change in the summer to come...

Join us on Friday for Part Two.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

00:00 Pre-Game Nerves and Disorganization

01:02 Introduction to the 1990 Cameroon Team

01:25 Historical Context of African Teams in the World Cup

02:26 The Dramatic Campaign of Cameroon 1990

04:40 The Goalkeeper Dilemma

07:25 African Football's Struggles and Triumphs

14:37 Colonial Impact on African Football

17:44 Cameroon's Chaotic Road to the World Cup

24:09 African Players in European Football

24:58 Cameroon's Discontent in the 1990s

26:02 The Build-Up to the 1990 World Cup

31:43 Roger Milla's Unexpected Return

40:07 Goalkeeper Rivalries and Team Dynamics

43:33 Pre-Match Chaos and Last-Minute Changes

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Did Saudi Arabia Buy Sport? Soft Power, Newcastle and Jimmy Hill!

Fri, 28 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Today Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author James Montague to discuss his new book 'Engulfed' - exploring Saudi Arabia's massive investments in sport.

James gives unique insights on the history of Saudi football, the Vision 2030 project, and how Newcastle United's takeover fits into the larger picture. You'll find out how strategic use of 'soft power' has transformed Saudi Arabia's global image through sport.

The trio examine the rich football culture in Saudi Arabia, the country's evolving social landscape, and the geopolitics influencing these changes.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

00:00 Introduction

00:17 James Montague's Early Works and Reviews

01:28 Re-release and Sequel: Engulfed

01:59 Saudi Arabia's Emergence in Sports

03:26 Sports Washing and Soft Power

06:47 Historical Context and Saudi Investments

11:10 Mohammad bin Salman's Rise to Power

23:57 The Khashoggi Incident and Its Aftermath

30:13 Saudi Arabia's Football Culture

31:24 Challenges of Covering Saudi Arabia

33:52 Women in Saudi Football

35:15 Jimmy Hill's Influence on Saudi Football

40:33 David Icke's Saudi Adventure

46:10 Vision 2030 and Saudi Football Investments

52:26 Neom's Football Ambitions

57:34 Conclusion and Book Promotion

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Soccer: An American History - Part Three: Boom to Bust

Wed, 26 Mar 2025 11:16:06 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

It's the final installment of our three-part series exploring the rise and fall of the American Soccer League. Jonathan and Rob dive into internal conflicts within the ASL, the 1929 Wall Street crash, and how its devastating effects exposed the vulnerabilities of the fledgling league.

But all is not lost - with another significant attempt to establish professional soccer in the U.S....

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

00:00 Introduction to the Series and Bela Gutmann's Influence

01:13 The Rise of the American Soccer League (ASL)

01:51 Innovations and Controversies in American Soccer

06:23 Financial Growth and International Tensions

08:17 The Playoff System and League Complications

10:53 The Struggles of Smaller Franchises

15:06 The Breakaway and Formation of the Eastern Soccer League

17:31 Chaos and Competition Between Leagues

22:24 The Soccer War and Its Impact

23:57 The Decline of the American Soccer League

25:27 The Wall Street Crash and Its Consequences

27:20 The Struggles of Key Figures and Teams

29:36 The Final Collapse of the ASL

34:25 Analysing the Failure of Soccer in the US

38:08 Comparing US and European Sports Models

45:36 The Future of Soccer in the US

49:17 Conclusion and What's Next

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Soccer: An American History - Part Two: Struggles, Expansion and International Influence

Fri, 21 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

In today's It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue to explore the fascinating story of soccer in the United States.

Highlighting the pivotal role of immigrant communities in the sport's development, the episode also examines key figures like Bela Gutmann and the significant tours by foreign teams that attracted huge crowds.

Join us for the conclusion of this three-part series on Tuesday.

00:00 Introduction to Bela Gutmann's New York Era

00:51 The Pre-History of American Soccer

01:36 Challenges in Establishing Soccer in the U.S.

02:26 The First Professional Soccer League

04:24 Financial Struggles and League Dynamics

07:16 Formation and Early Years of the American Soccer League

20:53 Innovations and Comparisons with Other Sports

24:19 College Football's Dominance and Soccer's Struggles

25:39 The Role of Universities in American Sports

26:14 Challenges in Early American Soccer

26:53 The Rise of the New York Giants

27:44 Fall River Marksmen's Dominance

28:25 Economic Struggles and Soccer's Impact

29:29 The League's Early Successes and Challenges

30:14 Expansion and New Teams

31:13 Player Transfers and Immigration Issues

33:19 The American Menace and Scottish Football

34:49 International Influence and Jewish Tours

41:07 The Impact of Jewish Players and Fans

44:23 The Maccabees and Tactical Evolution

47:49 The League's Growing Popularity and Issues

50:32 Concluding Thoughts and Future Outlook

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Soccer: An American History - Part One: Origins and Challenges

Tue, 18 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

In this episode of It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson dive into the early history of soccer in the United States.

They look at efforts to establish professional leagues, the influence of immigrant communities, and the geographic and cultural factors that made it difficult for football to gain a foothold - compared to rival American sports.

This episode is the first of a three-part series. Join us on Friday as the story continues!

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to American Soccer

01:08 Early History of Soccer in the USA

02:00 Challenges and Attempts to Establish Soccer

02:38 Soccer's Struggle for Popularity

06:06 The Role of Universities in American Football

17:16 Immigrant Influence on American Soccer

17:43 Regional Hotbeds of Soccer

24:18 Formation of Early Soccer Leagues

27:43 The Rise of Fall River and Early American Football

28:31 Economic Challenges and League Suspensions

29:18 Comparing Football Cultures: UK vs. US

33:11 Baseball's Influence on Early American Soccer

38:53 The Birth of the US Football Association

41:36 Challenges and Growth of Early US Soccer

46:52 Bethlehem Steel and the Industrial Influence

51:01 The Challenge Cup and Regional Rivalries

52:09 Concluding Thoughts and Future Prospects

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The 1985 League Cup Final: The Match that Changed My Life

Fri, 14 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Rob and Jonathan are joined by David Corner - the man whose life was changed forever by the 1985 League Cup Final between Sunderland and Norwich.

That match is remembered for a costly mistake that led to Sunderland’s defeat - a moment that saw David singled out, subjected to intense criticism and even physical abuse from his own fans.

David shares his story with Jonathan and Rob, reflecting on how that experience shaped his life, the challenges he faced in the aftermath, and how he found the strength to move forward.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

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League Cup Classics: Liverpool, Newcastle and the Greatest Finals

Tue, 11 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

With Liverpool and Newcastle set to battle for the first major trophy of the English domestic season on Sunday, we’re taking a journey through some of the greatest League Cup finals of all time.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper each share three of their favourite finals - games filled with drama, controversy, and unforgettable moments that have defined the competition. Have we missed any of your favourites? Get in touch with @ItWasPod

On Friday we have a special episode featuring David Corner, reflecting on Sunderland’s heartbreaking defeat in 1985.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

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From Arteta to Alonso: The Rise of Basque Coaches

Fri, 07 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Mikel Arteta’s transformation of Arsenal, Unai Emery’s tactical mastery, Xabi Alonso’s meteoric rise at Bayer Leverkusen, and Andoni Iraola’s fearless pressing at AFC Bournemouth all highlight a remarkable trend: A new wave of coaches shaping the modern game, many of them from the Basque Country.

But why does this small region produce so many elite managers? Is it the coaching philosophy, the deep footballing culture, or something ingrained in the Basque identity?

This is the story of how a new generation of Basque coaches are redefining football.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

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Guardiola: Dominance, Decline and a Post-Pep World?

Tue, 04 Mar 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

This week - we discuss the rise of Basque coaching. But we begin not in Bilbao or San Sebastián, but with a Catalan: Pep Guardiola.

After revolutionising football with Barcelona, dominating in Germany with Bayern, and redefining the Premier League with Manchester City, Guardiola has become the defining coach of his era.

But after a turbulent season at City, questions are emerging: Is this the beginning of the end for his football? Have opponents finally caught up with his ideas? Or does he have another reinvention left?

This is the story of how Guardiola reshaped the modern game—and what comes next. Part two, on the Basque coaching revolution, will be released on Friday.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

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The Making of a Football Superpower - Part Three: A New Dawn

Fri, 28 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was. This is the story of a new dawn - where one national team took full control of their destiny, cementing a legacy that continues to shape football today.

Following their World Cup triumph (in our last part), the U.S. Women's side entered a new era of independence and power - and with it came major shifts.

Coach Tony DiCicco became a casualty of the team’s growing influence, making way for fresh leadership and a transformed vision. But tensions were surfacing behind the scenes, with a showdown between star player Brandi Chastain and new coach April Heinrichs...

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

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The Making of a Football Superpower - Part Two: The Arrival

Tue, 25 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast..

Approaching the end of the millennium, the U.S. women’s national team had already won a World Cup and Olympic gold, but they were still fighting for mainstream recognition. That all changed when they took centre stage at the 1999 Women’s World Cup.

With 90,000 fans packing the Rose Bowl and millions watching around the world, the final against China became a defining moment - not just for the U.S. team, but for women’s football as a whole. Brandi Chastain’s iconic penalty, the sold-out stadiums, and the sheer spectacle of the tournament proved that women’s football wasn’t just growing - it had arrived.

This is the story of how the 1999 World Cup reshaped the sport forever.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

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The Making of a Football Superpower - Part One: The Birth of U.S. Women's Soccer

Fri, 21 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast..

Despite not playing their first professional match until 1985, the U.S. Women won the inaugural World Cup in 1991. But even as champions, they faced inequality—most notably at the 1996 Olympics, where they were only promised pay if they won gold, while the men earned bonuses for any medal. Tennis icon Billie Jean King stepped in to fight for change.

This is the story of how the U.S. women’s team fought for more than just trophies.

Part two, covering the iconic 1999 Women’s World Cup, is released on Tuesday. And if you missed our intro episode with USA legend Carli Lloyd earlier this week, go back and check it out.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

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The Making of a Football Superpower with Carli Lloyd - An Introduction

Tue, 18 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In our new mini-series, we begin the journey of how women’s football in the U.S. rose to global dominance. And who better to start with than Carli Lloyd - one of the game’s greatest competitors and a key figure in that evolution?

From the early struggles for recognition to back-to-back World Cup triumphs, Lloyd’s career mirrors the relentless fight for respect and progress in the women’s game. She takes us inside the mindset that made her a two-time World Cup winner, an Olympic gold medallist, and the architect of one of the most iconic performances in women’s football history - her stunning hat-trick in the 2015 World Cup final.

Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

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Busby’s Man United: From Munich Tragedy to European Glory

Fri, 14 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this final chapter of our series, we complete the journey that began with Gary Neville reflecting on the legacy of the Busby Babes. We explored who they were before the 1958 Munich Air Disaster, the tragic day itself, and now, we turn to the aftermath: How Manchester United rose again.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you through the incredible story of resilience and redemption. After recovering from his own life-threatening injuries, Sir Matt Busby rebuilt his beloved club, guiding them from devastation to glory. With the emergence of new stars like George Best and the leadership of Bobby Charlton, United’s revival culminated in their crowning moment in 1968, when they became the first English club to lift the European Cup - just a decade after their darkest day.

Thank you for joining us. If you’ve enjoyed the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

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Manchester United's Darkest Day

Tue, 11 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In last week’s episode, we told the story of the rise of the Busby Babes, their brilliance, and their final match before tragedy struck. Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you through the darkest day in Manchester United’s history: 6 February 1958.

At Munich-Riem Airport, United’s flight stopped to refuel on its way home from Belgrade. After two failed take-off attempts, the third ended in disaster. The crash claimed 23 lives, including eight of Manchester United’s finest players. Duncan Edwards fought for survival but died 15 days later. Manager Sir Matt Busby was left critically injured - the club’s future uncertain.

In this episode, Jonathan and Rob reconstruct the events of that fateful day - and explore the immediate aftermath; the heartbreak, the shock, and how Manchester United Football Club somehow carried on.

On Friday, we will have the final part: How Sir Matt Busby’s Manchester United rose again.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review. Thank you for listening.

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Who Were The Busby Babes?

Fri, 07 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Following Gary Neville’s tribute to the triumph and tragedy of the Busby Babes on the anniversary week of the Munich Air Disaster, we begin a three-part series on how the tragedy shaped the future of Manchester United.

In Part One, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore who the Busby Babes were, how the term came to be, and how Sir Matt Busby built his legendary team. They discuss the club’s pioneering youth system, Bobby Charlton’s journey to becoming a United supporter, and the importance of developing young talent. Among them was Duncan Edwards, regarded as one of England’s greatest footballers at the time, whose life was tragically cut short in 1958.

The episode closes with the team’s final match before the fateful Munich Air Disaster.

Next week, It Was What It Was presents a special episode focusing on the Munich Air Disaster, its immediate aftermath, and how Matt Busby’s rebuilt side laid the foundation for the Manchester United we know today.

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Gary Neville: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Busby Babes

Tue, 04 Feb 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week former Manchester United captain Gary Neville joins us to look back on one of the most momentous and tragic events in football history: The Munich air disaster of 1958.

Neville discusses the lasting significance of the tragedy - and how Sir Matt Busby rebuilt the club, leading them to European Cup glory just a decade after its darkest day.

Gary shares stories with Jonathan and Rob - including how he was raised to honour the Busby Babes as a young fan and as a player - and how their legacy helped shape the modern Manchester United.

Later this week, we’ll bring you the first instalment of our mini-series on the disaster, exploring who the Busby Babes were before that fateful night.

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Mystery of Matthias Sindelar, Part Two

Fri, 31 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Austrian footballer Matthias Sindelar was one of the greats of the game but his mysterious death in 1939 at the age of just 35 became a hugely contested issue in the darkest era of Austrian history. Was he murdered because he objected to the Nazis? Did he chose to end his life unable to countenance living under Hitler? Or was he the victim of a tragic accident? And what role had his girlfriend Camilla Castagnola, found dead alongside him, played?

Join Jonathan and Rob in the second and final part as they separate fact from fiction in the life of a lesser known great….

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Mystery of Matthias Sindelar, Part One

Tue, 28 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Join Jonathan and Rob as they separate fact from fiction in the life of a lesser known great….

Our finale is out on Friday!

If you're enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part Four

Fri, 24 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Jonathan and Rob continue exploring the extraordinary legacy of Bill Nicholson’s push and run game at Spurs and its relationship with Cruyff, Ajax, Barça and Total Football.

In Part 4, Nicholson guides Spurs to the first league and cup double of the 20th century and Spurs become the first British club to win a European trophy.

Don't forget to go back and listen to the rest of this series. Parts one and two feature Spurs royalty Steve Perryman!

If you’re enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part Three

Tue, 21 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Jonathan and Rob continue their dive into the career of Tottenham's legendary manager and one of the founding fathers of modern football: Bill Nicholson.

Don't forget to go back and listen to parts one and two with special guest and Spurs royalty Steve Perryman!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part Two With Steve Perryman

Fri, 17 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

It's time for part two of Jonathan and Rob's chat with Spurs legend Steve Perryman about the club's legendary manager and one of the founding fathers of modern football: Bill Nicholson.

Hear more from Steve as he tells us backstage stories and insights on Nicholson from the training ground, the dressing room and White Hart Lane.

Don't forget to go back and listen to part one first if you missed it.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part One With Steve Perryman

Tue, 14 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

This week, Jonathan and Rob are joined by Steve Perryman, Tottenham Hotspur’s record appearance holder, to talk about legendary Spurs manager Bill Nicholson.

From transforming Spurs into serial winners - to hilarious changing room stories - Steve takes us behind the scenes of one of the most successful sides of the 20th century.

Join us on Friday for Part Two!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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History's Biggest FA Cup Third Round Shocks - Part Two

Fri, 10 Jan 2025 05:00:00 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was - for Part Two of our look back at The FA Cup’s most memorable Third Round upsets!

Jonathan and Rob return to tell the stories behind five more iconic moments from football's oldest cup competition - before the pair choose their ultimate Third Round shock.

Please go back and listen to Part One if you missed it!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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History's Biggest FA Cup Third Round Shocks - Part One

Tue, 07 Jan 2025 05:00:42 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was - where it's time to talk some of The FA Cup’s most memorable Third Round shocks!

The FA Cup is synonymous with dreams and giant-killings, and nothing captures its essence better than the Third Round proper. Jonathan and Rob bring us their favourite ‘cupsets’ and the stories that have cemented them in FA Cup folklore.

Don't forget to join us for Part Two on Friday!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Lines, Screens and Outrage! The Story, the Impact and the Cost of VAR

Fri, 03 Jan 2025 05:00:14 GMT

Welcome back to It Was What It Was and Happy New Year!

In today’s episode, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the origins of VAR with author Daisy Christodoulou.

Her latest book, I Can’t Stop Talking About VAR, discusses its profound impact on the sport, and whether it was designed to enhance football - or if football is now adapting to fit VAR. The evolution of football has never felt more immediate or impactful.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Sir Alex And His Worst Ever New Year's Day - with QPR's Andy Sinton

Tue, 31 Dec 2024 05:00:18 GMT

New’s Eve Year 1991. Manchester United are on course to win the title for the first time since 1967. It’s Sir Alex Ferguson’s 50th birthday party, but it's a small, understated affair because United play QPR at Old Trafford the next day. A comfortable home win is expected for United to go top again - but it didn't work out that way...

Join one of the stars of that game, Andy Sinton, to discuss what happened next, in perhaps the most famous New Year's Day game in modern English football.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The True Story of the Christmas Truce 1914

Mon, 23 Dec 2024 05:00:21 GMT

Christmas Eve, 1914. A cold, crisp, moonlit night in Flanders.

British and German soldiers are dug into opposing trenches in a hellish shelled-out landscape, strewn with rotting corpses. But an unfamiliar sound is heard from the German trenches: “Stille Nacht, Heilige Nacht” is being sung to welcome the birth of Christ.

The British respond with their own carols, seasonal greetings are exchanged across the trenches and troops tentatively move out into No Man’s Land. Gifts are exchanged, friends are made and then, allegedly, a football match ensued!

Is this mythic tale - a staple of primary school history lessons - actually true? Or is it mere legend? Was any football really played? If so, is it perhaps the most significant match of all time? Rob and Jonathan reveal the true story behind what may be football’s finest moment.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Pickles Finds The World Cup: The Story Of Football's Most Famous Dog!

Tue, 17 Dec 2024 05:00:18 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, it's the tale of Pickles: The most famous dog in football history.

As most football fans know, Pickles saved the day by finding the Jules Rimet trophy - the original World Cup - after it had farcically been stolen from a stamp collection exhibition in the run up to the 1966 World Cup.

But the whole story is even more surprising, more tragic and more comedic. And what came next for Pickles and the thief? Jonathan and Rob reveal all.

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Wolves: Champions Of The World!

Tue, 10 Dec 2024 05:00:38 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, Jonathan and Rob introduce us to the team - and the match - that played a huge part in the invention of the European Cup...

“Champions of the World!” was the headline given to Wolverhampton Wanderers, when they beat the mighty Hungarian team Honvéd, led by Ferenc Puskas, in 1954.

Billy Wright was the star of the show for a game that many saw as reestablishing England as top football nation. But was it just gamesmanship that won the day for this great Wolves side? And how did that grandiose headline annoy the French so much it led to the formation of the European Cup (and consequently the Champions League) a year later?

Wolves 3 Honvéd 2 is one of the most significant matches ever; a great night of European football that paved the way for so many historic moments in years to come.

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When the Super Eagles Stunned the World - Nigeria 1996

Tue, 03 Dec 2024 05:00:37 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, we're looking at one of football's most remarkable underdog stories.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take us back to the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, where Nigeria’s “Dream Team” shocked the world and won men's gold - the first African team to win a senior global football tournament.

From Kanu’s heroics, to dramatic comeback victories over Brazil and Argentina, they explore how this historic triumph cemented African football on the global stage - and inspired a new generation of players.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Ruben Amorim: Have Man United Found Their Special One?

Tue, 26 Nov 2024 05:00:14 GMT

This week. It Was What It Was asks: What is it with Portuguese football?

With Ruben Amorim arriving at Manchester United, there are now as many Premier League managers from Portugal as from England coaching this season.

Portugal also has the fourth highest-quota of Premier League players (after England, Brazil and France). For a nation of just over 10 million, it consistently punches above its weight.

Amorim’s rise to one of the biggest jobs in world football is located in the reform of Portuguese football in the 1980s - and specifically in the university faculty that helps turn out some of the world’s best coaches.

Join Jonathan and Rob as we go back to school with Ruben Amorim, speaking to the mentors who forged him as a coach. It's a journey that takes in Jose Mourinho, Cristiano Ronaldo and super agent Jorge Mendes.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Rafa Benitez: My Coaching Secrets - Part Two

Thu, 21 Nov 2024 05:00:51 GMT

Welcome to It Was What It Was, and Part Two of our special look back at the remarkable career of Rafa Benitez - with the man himself!

In this second part - Rafa, Jonathan and Rob look back at Rafa's arrival at Anfield, his influence on the Premier League, and then head backstage to explain the moments and decisions behind that iconic Champions League triumph in Istanbul.

Join us as Rafa takes us inside the moments that defined his legacy in England, and cemented his place in Liverpool folklore.

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Rafa Benitez: My Coaching Secrets - Part One

Tue, 19 Nov 2024 05:00:38 GMT

In this special episode of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by the legendary Rafa Benitez.

Part One explores the early years of Rafa's extraordinary career, from his beginnings as a promising young coach in Spain to his groundbreaking success with Valencia.

Rafa shares the stories, challenges, and philosophy that shaped his journey. Part One takes us up to his arrival in England - setting the stage for the Premier League's tactical transformation that Rafa would help to spearhead.

Don’t miss this brilliant insight from one of football’s most renowned tacticians - and join us for Part Two on Thursday.

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Thomas Tuchel: The Origin Story of England's New Manager

Tue, 12 Nov 2024 05:00:51 GMT

In this week’s episode of It Was What It Was, Jonathan and Rob take a deep dive into the fascinating journey of Thomas Tuchel, the newly appointed England manager. From his early years as a player with a mature football mind, to a detour studying economics while working in a cocktail bar, Tuchel’s path to football’s elite has been anything but ordinary.

Jonathan and Rob discuss how a timely call from Ralph Rangnick set Tuchel on a coaching trajectory that would see him manage some of Europe’s biggest clubs— Mainz, Dortmund, PSG, Chelsea, and Bayern Munich. They reflect on the highlights of his career, including his confidence that led Chelsea to a thrilling Champions League victory over Manchester City in 2021.

Now, with Tuchel at the helm of the England national team, the duo explores what he brings to the international stage, how he might shape England’s future, and whether he can achieve the same success on the world stage that he did in club football.

Join us for a compelling look at one of football’s most innovative managers, and what his unique journey could mean for the future of English football.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Money Behind Modern Football With Miguel Delaney

Tue, 05 Nov 2024 05:00:09 GMT

In this week’s episode of It Was What It Was, Miguel Delaney discusses his new book: States of Play: How Sportswashing Took Over Football.

Jonathan, Rob and Miguel assess how mega-rich investors and state-backed owners have transformed clubs and competitions around the world. The trio explain the impact of sportswashing on our modern game - where nations and corporations have used football to enhance their public image and gain global influence.

Join us for a compelling insight into football's new landscape - and find out what the future could hold for clubs, players, and fans.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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Emergency Pod: Amorim Arrives! Man United And The Busby-Ferguson Curse

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 05:00:41 GMT

In this bonus episode of It Was What It Was hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper look into the striking parallels between Manchester United’s managerial struggles in the post-Matt Busby and post-Sir Alex Ferguson eras. Despite decades of history and immense success, the club has faced a persistent challenge in finding a manager capable of replicating the legacy left by its legendary figures.

Following the recent sacking of Erik Ten Hag, the arrival of Ruben Amorim has reignited the age-old debate about the club's direction and leadership. Wilson and Draper explore how the patterns of the past continue to haunt United, questioning whether Amorim will be the answer to the club’s woes or merely another chapter in a familiar narrative.

Join us as we analyze the lessons learned (or not learned) from the club's history, the impact of managerial instability, and the pressing questions that linger: Can United break free from the cycle of déjà vu, or will history repeat itself once again?

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The Trilogy of Violence: Celtic v Racing 1967 - Part Two

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 05:00:16 GMT

In Part Two of It Was What It Was, we dive into the explosive conclusion of the 1967 Intercontinental Cup clash between Celtic and Racing Club. With tempers flaring, the second and decisive third legs were anything but ordinary—featuring multiple send-offs, brutal fouls, and even a policeman with a drawn sword stepping onto the pitch.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper guide you through the chaos and controversy that defined this historic showdown. Don’t miss the conclusion to one of football’s most infamous battles!

If you’ve enjoyed this series, please subscribe for more deep dives into sports history, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

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The Trilogy of Violence: Celtic v Racing 1967 - Part One

Tue, 29 Oct 2024 05:00:21 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, we’re traveling back to 1967, when Celtic’s legendary Lisbon Lions clashed with Racing Club in an unforgettable, fiery three-match series for the Intercontinental Cup.

In Part One, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the stage before the first leg at Hampden Park, where Jock Stein’s side secured a 1-0 advantage to take to South America - though the real drama was just beginning.

Join us on Thursday for the thrilling conclusion of this historic showdown in Part Two!

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El Clasico: Civil War, Conspiracies And Scandal With Sid Lowe

Tue, 22 Oct 2024 04:00:51 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, we're talking one of football's greatest rivalries: Real Madrid and Barcelona.

In the week of El Clasico, Spanish football expert Sid Lowe joins Rob and Jonathan to discuss the history, politics and scandal behind possibly the biggest club match in football.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode - and please consider leaving us a five star review to help others find the show. Thank you!

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Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part Four - World Cup Heartache and Legacy

Thu, 17 Oct 2024 04:00:13 GMT

Join us for the final part of our special series on the shoe salesman who changed football forever: Arrigo Sacchi.

In this episode of It Was What It Was, Sacchi comes to the end of his first spell at AC Milan and answers his country's call - managing the Italian national side at the World Cup in 1994 and Euro 96.

This episode is the last in our series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport. It starts with our Sacchi intro episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!).

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part Three - Creating Milan's Immortals

Tue, 15 Oct 2024 04:00:33 GMT

It Was What It Was continues our special look into the life and career of one of football's greatest and most influential managers: Arrigo Sacchi.

In this episode, Sacchi has finally arrived at AC Milan and, with a team of legends in the making, his greatest work is about to begin.

This episode is part of our series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport. It starts with our Sacchi intro episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!).

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part Two - Small Beginnings and Big Breaks

Thu, 10 Oct 2024 04:00:16 GMT

It Was What It Was continues the epic story of arguably the most important manager in modern football history: Arrigo Sacchi.

In this episode, Rob and Jonathan explore Sacchi's rise through the coaching ranks. Sacchi earns his spurs in youth coaching, before his impressive work at Parma turns the head of Italian giants AC Milan, and their enigmatic owner Silvio Berlusconi.

This episode is part of our special series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport. It starts with our Sacchi intro episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!).

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part One - The Making Of A Genius

Tue, 08 Oct 2024 04:00:59 GMT

This week on It Was What It Was, we continue the epic story of arguably the most important manager in modern football history: Arrigo Sacchi.

Following-up from last week's episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!), Rob and Jonathan go back to Sacchi's roots and how his legend began.

We discuss Sacchi's early years, from shoe factories to football coaching - and the family tragedy that changed the Italian's destiny and the destiny of European football.

This episode is part of our special series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Carragher on Sacchi: The Genius Who Revolutionised Football

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 04:00:26 GMT

Welcome to The Overlap's football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Special guest and Liverpool legend Jamie Carragher join hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they explore the legacy of one of football’s most iconic managers: Arrigo Sacchi.

Widely regarded as one of the greatest minds in the sport, Sacchi led AC Milan to back-to-back European Cup triumphs in the late 1980s, building a team that Carragher grew up idolising.

In this episode, Carragher discusses Sacchi's profound influence on football, how his revolutionary tactics reshaped the game, and the impact they had on Carragher's own playing career.

Together, the trio provides an in-depth analysis of Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport.

Next week we dig even deeper into the genius of Sacchi, as Jonathan and Rob kick off their special four-part series on his life, starting with his early years.

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Manchester City Guilty! The 1904/05 Scandal

Tue, 24 Sep 2024 04:00:39 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

On this week's episode we travel back to one of the biggest financial scandals in early English football—the 1904-05 Manchester City scandal.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper unravel the events that saw Manchester City, fresh off their FA Cup win, embroiled in controversy over illegal player payments.

It Was What It Was explores how the Football Association’s wage cap led to the club’s downfall, forcing manager Tom Maley and 17 players—including star winger Billy Meredith—banned.

You’ll hear how this scandal not only rocked Manchester City but also paved the way for Manchester United's rise, reshaping the footballing landscape in ways that still echo today with City currently facing 115 charges as of September 2024.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Heroic Villains: Aston Villa's European Miracle

Tue, 17 Sep 2024 04:00:25 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

As Aston Villa return to Champions League football this week, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take a deep dive into the club's most iconic moment: their 1982 European Cup triumph.

It Was What It Was revisits this historic victory, made even more remarkable by the fact that manager Ron Saunders resigned midway through the season, leaving Tony Barton to step in and guide Villa to European glory.

Jonathan and Rob walk us through the unforgettable campaign, which saw Villa travel to Germany and Ukraine before defeating Bayern Munich 1-0 in the final. The win became even more legendary when first-choice goalkeeper Jimmy Rimmer was forced off with an injury, only for his inexperienced replacement, Nigel Spink, to step up and deliver a crucial performance in just his second-ever first-team appearance, cementing his place in Villa's history on one of the club’s greatest nights.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

***Please note this episode was recorded before the death of the late Gary Shaw.***

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Messi: Making the GOAT

Tue, 10 Sep 2024 04:00:53 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week, our hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dive into the extraordinary journey of Lionel Messi, widely regarded as the greatest footballer of all time.

With his 2022 World Cup triumph marking the pinnacle of an already legendary career, Jonathan and Rob take a journey back to Messi’s beginnings.

They explore his childhood in Rosario, the crucial role his family played in his development, and his time at Newell's Old Boys, where he faced and overcame a growth hormone deficiency that almost ended his dream before it began.

In this episode of It Was What It Was, they delve into his life-changing move to Barcelona at just 13, joining the iconic Class of '87 alongside future stars like Cesc Fàbregas and Gerard Piqué, where Messi would go on to become the greatest player in the club’s storied history.

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Chelsea's Roman Empire: The Abramovich Takeover

Tue, 03 Sep 2024 04:00:15 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was. This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the story of probably the most-consequential football club takeover ever: When Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea in 2003.

Before sportswashing was even a word and in an age when Financial Fair Play didn’t exist, we examine the background to the most-startling and unexpected deal in Premier League history. And the extraordinary impact it would make, as Chelsea splurged what was at the time an eye-watering £100m in that first summer transfer window, laying the foundations for Chelsea to become a super club that would win 18 major trophies in the Roman era.

It transformed the Premier League, threatened Fergie, ruined the latter years of Arsene Wenger’s career, caused UEFA to dream up new FFP rules to curb them and paved the way for the era of nation state investors at Manchester City, Paris St Germain and Newcastle United.

It Was What it Was goes back to that stunning summer which changed the game and debates whether football was ever the same after the Roman Conquest.

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Puskas and Postecoglou: The Legacy of Ange Ball

Tue, 27 Aug 2024 04:00:04 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the connection between Ferenc Puskas and Ange Postecoglou, and how the Hungarian idol influenced the Australian coach.

Regarded as one of the greatest players of all time, Ferenc Puskas’s post-playing career saw him manage across the world, including stints in Spain, America, Greece, Saudi Arabia, and Australia. It was in Australia where Puskas, the manager, coached Postecoglou, the player, at South Melbourne Hellas.

Jonathan and Rob detail Ange Postecoglou’s life, including the influence of his Greek father, and how Puskás's coaching philosophy left a lasting impact on him. Discover how these experiences shaped Postecoglou’s approach to management and contributed to his success.

As Postecoglou gets underway in his second season with Tottenham Hotspur, join us to uncover the enduring legacy of Ferenc Puskas on one of today’s most innovative coaches.

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The Premier League’s Greatest Games: Liverpool 4-3 Newcastle – Part Two

Thu, 22 Aug 2024 04:00:41 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In Part One, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene for Liverpool’s incredible 4-3 win over Newcastle in April 1996. We now delve into the game itself and the consequences that follow.

Having been 12-points clear in the run for the Premier League title, Jonathan and Rob provide an in-depth look into how this game symbolically ends Newcastle’s title chances and ultimately leads to Kevin Keegan leaving the club.

We look closely into the teams, the goals, the players and the atmosphere, as well the aftermath of the game, giving a real resonance of what will happen in football in the next 10 years.

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The Premier League’s Greatest Games: Liverpool 4-3 Newcastle – Part One

Tue, 20 Aug 2024 04:00:53 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the true classic that was Liverpool v Newcastle in April 1996, as The Reds snatched a victory in the final moments in front of the Kop.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the backstory of the season, giving context coming into the game, including Newcastle’s 12 point-lead as they looked to be in the clear for the Premier League title.

The second part of this, which focuses on the game and the consequences that follow, will be out on Thursday 22nd August

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How Pep Guardiola Became A Football Genius

Tue, 13 Aug 2024 04:00:10 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take an in-depth look at Pep Guardiola's journey to becoming a football legend.

Focusing on the early stages of his coaching career and the political landscape at Barcelona, Jonathan and Rob explain how the Catalonian club turned to Pep during a turbulent period. Under his leadership, Barcelona experienced its most successful era in history.

As we anticipate the 2024/25 Premier League campaign, where Pep aims for an unprecedented fifth consecutive league title at Manchester City, join us to discover how he evolved into the tactical mastermind celebrated as one of the greatest football managers of all time.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Chaos, Fury and Clough: Liverpool v Leeds, 1974

Tue, 06 Aug 2024 04:00:47 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into a game that was full of trouble -The 1974 Charity Shield at Wembley between Liverpool and Leeds, during a time when behaviour on and off the pitch was declining English football.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the social context and lead up to the game, including a new Liverpool under Bob Paisley and a new Leeds under Brian Clough as they head into the game with uncertainty on both sides.

Jonathan and Rob also provide a detailed analysis of the match itself, including key players, key incidents that lead to fighting on the pitch and the aftermath of the game on both clubs and English football.

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Football's Dirtiest Ever Game: Battle of Santiago 1962

Tue, 30 Jul 2024 04:00:27 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into one of football's dirtiest ever games: the infamous Battle of Santiago in 1962.

Regarded as one of the most brutal matches in football history, the Battle of Santiago saw host nation Chile face Italy in a violent and chaotic encounter at the World Cup.

Jonathan and Rob detail the events leading up to the game and the explosive incidents on the pitch, where the first foul was committed within 12 seconds, and armed police entered the field three times. They also explore the lasting impact this notorious match had on the world of football.

Discover the political and cultural tensions that fuelled the animosity between the teams, and hear about the controversy surrounding Chile's hosting of the World Cup just two years after a catastrophic earthquake.

Learn how this game led to significant changes in football's officiating and disciplinary procedures, including the invention of the yellow and red card system by the match referee, Ken Aston.

Join us to uncover the full story behind the Battle of Santiago, a match that remains a stark reminder of the sport's darker side.

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Andrade: The Legend Before Pele!

Tue, 23 Jul 2024 04:00:24 GMT

*This episode of It Was What It Was discusses issues including racism, with content that some listeners may find offensive.*

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the successful Uruguay National team of the 1920s and one their key players, Jose Leandro Andrade, who was perhaps one of the first to spark a global mania over a footballer.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the history of Uruguay, how they develop such an impressive team to became one of football’s first global powerhouses, winning gold in the 1924 and 1928 Olympics and lifting the first FIFA World Cup in 1930.

Jonathan and Rob also provide a detailed analysis of Uruguay’s style of play and their key players, with a particular focus on the life of Jose Leandro Andrade, his journey into football, his rise to fame and falling into poverty.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Goodbye Gareth: Ranking Southgate’s England Era

Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:00:19 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week's bonus episode, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper talk about Gareth Southgate and England's Euro 2024 tournament - which proved to be Southgate's last as the Three Lions manager.

Jonathan and Rob reflect on Euro 2024, before questioning where Southgate ranks amongst the greatest English managers - after guiding his country to two Euro finals and a World Cup semi-final after decades of underachievement.

Get in touch with the podcast on socials to let us know where you would place Southgate amongst England's managers.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Dezso Solti: Auschwitz Survivor, Match-fixer

Tue, 16 Jul 2024 03:00:47 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the story of Dezso Solti, a complex character who was one of the most notorious and biggest match fixers in European football during the 1960s and 1970s.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into Solti’s extraordinary and horrific origin story in Auschwitz death camp as a Hungarian Jew in 1944, how he got out of Hungary and into Italy.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of Solti’s journey into Italian football, match fixing in this era, the bribing of match officials, including the semi-final of the 1965 European Cup and the evidence that leads to his banning from football.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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The Ban on Women's Football and its Resilient Rise

Tue, 09 Jul 2024 04:00:09 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the 1920 Boxing Day game between Dick Kerr ladies and St Helens Ladies at Goodison, which remained the biggest crowd at a women’s game in England for over 90 years. It also appeared to be a historic turning point, as the FA would ban women’s football a year later on the 5th December 1921.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the growth of women’s football in the 19th-century, looking at the formation of Dick, Kerr Ladies in Preston during WW1, the powerhouse they would become in English football, the attention their football would attract and the large crowds it created.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of the lead-up to the game on Boxing Day that attracted 52,000 fans, raising money for wounded soldiers, the months that followed which led to the FA’s decision to ban women’s football and looking at how far we have come since.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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The End of Sir Alf: The Fall of England's Greatest Manager, Part 2

Thu, 04 Jul 2024 04:00:16 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In Part One, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene for the qualification of the 1972 Euro quarter-final, where England were knocked out by West Germany. We now delve into the continuing years of decline as England failed to qualify for the following three major tournaments.

Having won the World Cup in 1966, Sir Alf Ramsey’s England side descend into struggle as Jonathan and Rob provide an in-depth look at where it goes wrong for England and how it came to the point where a World Cup winning manager was sacked by his country.

We look into England’s failure to qualify for the 1974 World Cup in their group with Wales and Poland, as Ramsey’s tactics and style of play led to his sacking, as well as the aftermath for the Three Lions.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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The End of Sir Alf: The Fall of England's Greatest Manager, Part 1

Tue, 02 Jul 2024 04:00:40 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the decline of England's most successful manager Sir Alf Ramsey, exploring how his 1966 World Cup winners were beaten by a much-improved West Germany side over two quarter-final qualification legs for Euro 1972.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the tactical revolution of England under Alf Ramsey, from their World Cup win in 1966 to their descent in Euro 1972, as West Germany’s positional intelligence show that England were no longer the best in the world.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of Ramsey’s style of play, the build-up to the first leg quarter-final defeat at Wembley, the changing relationship between England and West Germany from 1966 to 1972 and the key players in those tournaments.

Our second part is out on Thursday 4th July.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Euro 1984: The Magic of Michel Platini

Tue, 25 Jun 2024 04:00:11 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, on its 40th Anniversary, we dive into Euro 1984, a tournament that marked a pivotal moment in French football history as they lifted a major tournament trophy for the first time.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the impact of Michel Platini, whose footballing prowess and leadership played a crucial role in guiding France to victory on their home turf. They also analyse how the tournament shaped European football and paved the way for future international competitions.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of the group stages, revisit the historic knockout stage clashes, including the semi-final regarded as the Euro’s greatest ever match between France and Portugal, which culminated in France’s triumphant 2-0 final win over Spain.

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Euro 2012: Spain's Pinnacle in Poland & Ukraine

Tue, 18 Jun 2024 04:00:00 GMT

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look at Euro 2012, a tournament fondly remembered as the crowning moment in Spain’s era of dominance, marking their third consecutive major win following Euro 2008 and the 2010 World Cup.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper kick things off by delving into the politics behind the decision to host the tournament in Poland and Ukraine, exploring how the host cities managed the logistical challenges and the lasting impact of the event.

Jonathan and Rob provide a comprehensive overview of the group stages, highlighting memorable moments such as Danny Welbeck’s back-heeled winner against Sweden. They then move on to iconic knockout stage moments, including Andrea Pirlo’s masterful penalty, Mario Balotelli’s unforgettable performance against Germany and Spain’s utterly dominant 4-0 victory over Italy in the final.

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Euro 2004: Greek Glory, England’s Exit - Part Two

Thu, 13 Jun 2024 04:00:53 GMT

Welcome back to The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In Part One, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene for the Euro 2004 knockout stages. Now, we delve into the life of Greece manager Otto Rehhagel, who orchestrated one of football’s greatest miracles at Euro 2004.

The tournament was a landmark for many nations, especially England, who dramatically lost on penalties to hosts Portugal in a thrilling match after Sven Goran-Eriksson’s star 18-year-old Wayne Rooney was injured.

Jonathan and Rob provide an in-depth look at the knockout stages, detailing how Greece astonishingly dethroned France, then defeated the Czech Republic in silver-goal extra time, before beating Portugal for the second time in the competition, having never previously won at a major international tournament.

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Euro 2004: Greek Glory, England’s Exit - Part One

Tue, 11 Jun 2024 04:00:35 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

With Euro 2024 approaching this week, we present a special two-part episode on Euro 2004, a tournament where underdogs Greece achieved one of international football’s greatest upsets.

Regarded as the one that got away from Sven-Goran Eriksson’s Golden Generation England team, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene with a full detailed look on the group stages.

From Portugal’s preparation as hosts to their opening defeat by eventual winners Greece and an 18 year-old Wayne Rooney propelling himself to an international icon, part one delves into the story surrounding the nations before the knock-out rounds.

Join us for part two on Thursday 13th June where Rob and Jonathan tell the story of Greece manager Otto Rehhagel and the path that led the way to one of football’s biggest ever shocks.

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United’s Treble: Sliding Doors to Barcelona

Tue, 04 Jun 2024 04:00:54 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the sliding doors moments that lead to the Manchester United treble win in 1999.

In the years leading up to Sir Alex Ferguson's greatest achievement, we take a look at some of the key moments that could have changed the course of history: from Maurice Watkins recommending Alex Ferguson as the manager to replace Terry Venables as Barcelona manager in 1986 to Alan Hansen’s infamous comment on Match of the Day as well as United's youth system and signing Eric Cantona.

It Was What It Was gives a detailed look into the changes that took place at Old Trafford that paved the journey to the treble; including building the squad after the 1994 Champions League loss to Barcelona, new revenue at Old Trafford and the tactical and financial changes at the club.

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Reds in Rome: Liverpool’s 1984 European Cup Story, Part Two

Thu, 30 May 2024 04:00:15 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In part two of our Reds in Rome story, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the events of the day of the 1984 European Cup final between Roma and Liverpool.

Having set the scene in part one of our two-part special, Jonathan and Rob reveal insightful stories from inside the Liverpool camp, the real hostilities their fans dealt with and how Joe Fagan’s side managed to win the first ever European Cup penalty shoot-out, which also unearthed Bruce Grobbelaar’s spaghetti legs.

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Reds in Rome: Liverpool's 1984 European Cup Story, Part One

Tue, 28 May 2024 04:00:23 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week we have a two part special focussing on Liverpool’s 1984 European Cup victory, 40 years on from one of the finest nights in the Reds' history.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper discuss the events leading up to the final where Joe Fagan’s side beat Roma in their own stadium as they lifted their fourth European Cup in seven years having already won the league title and league cup in the same season.

In part one Jonathan and Rob explore where Liverpool were as a club and city along with reliving famous knockout stage contests, including dramatic wins over Benfica and Dinamo Bucuresti where tempers flared on and off the pitch.

Join us for part two on Thursday 30th May to listen to the historical European Cup final where Liverpool became the first side to win the final on penalties.

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Farewell Jurgen: Klopp's origin story from Stuttgart to Liverpool

Tue, 21 May 2024 04:00:44 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the series with a unite insight into the life of Jurgen Klopp.

Klopp leaves his managerial role at Liverpool having ended their 30 year top flight trophy drought alongside a historic Champions League, FA Cup, League Cup and Club World Cup during a 9-year period that changed Anfield.

Rightly regarded as one of the most important managerial spells in the Reds history, Jonathan and Rob explore the events that made Klopp the charismatic manager he is today.

From his childhood and familial upbringing in Baden-Wurttemberg in Stuttgart to his playing then managerial stint at Mainz - that included an incredible final day of the season encounter - It Was What It Was gives a detailed look into the life of the German manager.

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Part 2 : Arsenal '89: The Game That Changed Football Forever

Thu, 16 May 2024 04:00:05 GMT

Welcome back to The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

On our second and final part of Arsenal ’89: The Game That Change Football Forever, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper re-live the unforgettable final day of the 1988/89 campaign that seen Arsenal leapfrog Liverpool to the First Division title at Anfield.

George Graham’s Arsenal required a two-goal victory in the final match of the season against reigning champions Liverpool to overtake their opponents and pulled off the miracle through second-half goals from Alan Smith and a last gasp strike from Michael Thomas.

Jonathan and Rob discuss the stunning finale to the season, including the events of the day, celebrational aftermath and how the defining game changed English football forever.

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Part 1: Arsenal '89: The Game That Changed Football Forever

Tue, 14 May 2024 04:00:47 GMT

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Hosted by journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper, we continue our series with a game regarded as one of the biggest in English football history as Arsenal snatched the First Division title from Liverpool at Anfield through Michael Thomas's late goal in a 2-0 win on the final day of the 1988/89 season.

In part one of two in our special, Rob and Jonathan set the scene to that famous finale; delving into Arsenal's rebuild under George Graham, Liverpool’s European dominance alongside the historical, social and TV context of the late 1980's.

Join us for part two on Thursday 16th May to hear the events of the one of the biggest matches in English history and what the aftermath meant for the game.

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Ta-ra Fergie

Tue, 07 May 2024 04:00:55 GMT

Welcome to The Overlap’s brand-new football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Hosted by journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper, we kick off our series with the story behind one of the greatest managers of all time – Sir Alex Ferguson.

Sir Alex Ferguson won 38 major trophies in 26 years as Manchester United boss, including 13 Premier League titles, two Champions Leagues and five FA Cups during an unprecedented era of success.

But his period of dominance at Old Trafford followed a time of struggles, shocks and setbacks with many fans calling for the Scottish manager to be sacked before he won his first trophy four years into his reign.

Jonathan and Rob delve into how Sir Alex rejuvenated Manchester United, explaining how his arrival from Aberdeen transformed the club’s culture, why his forward-thinking approach for the youth team structure was so essential and which moments were vital in laying the foundations of footballing superiority that transformed the English game.

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It Was What It Was: Preview

Tue, 07 May 2024 04:00:20 GMT

Welcome to The Overlap's historical football podcast, It Was What It Was.

Each week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper will be talking about the key episodes in football history that have shaped the footballing world today.

The show will be discussing the best stories from football's past, giving insights to the personalities involved, providing details from behind the scenes and offering vital historical context.

If you enjoy the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.