t turns out Ari has spent decades tracking the legal sector as a lawyer, writer, researcher, speaker, and host of one of the deepest podcast archives in legal tech. Ari started recording interviews in 2009, before podcasting had even fully found its name. Today, that body of work amounts to a remarkable archive of conversations with leaders across legal, legal tech, and adjacent markets. He's done 60+ research reports and published over 900 podcast episodes.

This gives him the long view of legal innovation. In the episode, we explore: 

- Why connecting people is still one of the most valuable skills in legal 

- Why consistency is underrated in building trust, visibility, and opportunity 

- How generosity and community building create real long term advantage 

If you work in legal innovation, business development, or leadership, this conversation will give you plenty to think about.

This episode is sponsored by Lexpo.com get your tickets now.

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In this episode of Beyond Billable, Pim Betist speaks with Frans Post, a seasoned financial leader in the legal industry with more than thirty years of experience inside major international law firms.

Frans began his career at Clifford Chance when the Amsterdam office was still a five partner startup and helped grow it into a 300 person firm. He later held senior C suite roles in law firms across London, New York and other international markets. He went on to become CFO at De Brauw Blackstone Westbroek and most recently led a major Microsoft Dynamics implementation at Houthoff, focused on creating a technological foundation for data and AI.

Drawing on decades of experience in the financial engine room of law firms, Frans shares his perspective on how AI will reshape the economics of legal services. The conversation explores the future of leverage, the decline of hours times rates, and why pricing will become one of the most strategic capabilities inside law firms.

They also discuss the shift toward value based pricing, margin management, subscription models and the changing role of partners in a technology driven legal market.

This episode is essential listening for law firm leaders, partners and legal professionals who want to understand how AI is transforming the business model of law.

This episode was recorded on De Gewoonboot in Amsterdam Noord.

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In this episode of Beyond Billable, I speak with Sarah about why pressure on legal departments keeps compounding and why technology alone will not get them out of it.

She offers a strikingly simple answer to a question many legal professionals are wrestling with right now. Which parts of legal work will be impacted by AI, and which parts truly require the human brain. We unpack how to make that distinction and why it matters in practice.

Instead of starting with tools, Sarah argues for a reset. Decide what kind of legal department you want to be in five or ten years. Separate legal judgment from operational work. Only then does technology, including AI, make sense as an accelerator.

We recorded this conversation on the Gewoonboot. A great place for law firms and legal departments to step back, slow down, and have exactly the kind of conversations we explore in this episode.

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In dit gesprek onderzoeken we waarom juristen veranderingen vaak wel begrijpen, maar er toch niet naar handelen, waarom AI commissies te beperkt zijn om echt voorbereid te zijn op wat komt, en waarom vertrouwen en duiding belangrijker worden dan informatie alleen. Christ’l deelt inzichten uit haar loopbaan in de advocatuur, haar in house functies bij de Haven van Amsterdam en Vodafone, haar periode in New York bij onder meer Harvard en de Verenigde Naties, en haar terugkeer naar Nederland waar zij een van de eerste interim bureaus voor juristen en notarissen oprichtte.

We spreken ook over hoe belangrijk je rechter brein is, het risico van het terugschroeven van de instroom van jonge juristen, de rol van cliënten als aanjagers van innovatie, en waarom een projectmatige Hollywood aanpak beter past bij de toekomst van juridisch werk.

Wil je testen of jouw brein meer links of rechts georiënteerd is? In het gesprek komt deze test ter sprake:https://www.123test.com/nl/brein/#its123-testAnchor

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In this conversation, we explore why lawyers often understand change intellectually but still fail to act, why AI committees are too narrow to deal with what is coming, and why trust and interpretation are becoming more valuable than information itself. Christ’l reflects on her career in private practice, in house roles at the Port of Amsterdam and Vodafone, her time in New York working with institutions such as Harvard and the United Nations, and her return to the Netherlands where she founded one of the first interim agencies for lawyers and notaries.

We also discuss the importance of the right side of your brain, risks of cutting junior lawyers too early, how clients are becoming the real drivers of innovation, and why a project based Hollywood model may better fit the future of legal work.

Curious whether your brain is more left or right oriented? The test mentioned in the conversation is available in Dutch here:https://www.123test.com/nl/brein/#its123-testAnchor

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Knut Magnar shares his journey from lawyer to entrepreneur and explains why improving legal work often clashes with the billable hour model. He reflects on the moments where doing things better was seen as a threat rather than progress, and why that never stopped him from pushing forward.

The conversation then moves to generative AI and legal work. Knut Magnar explains how lawyers can use AI to prepare, structure and challenge their thinking without losing the human judgment that makes legal work valuable. He talks about the risks of using AI as a shortcut, the importance of learning through friction, and why real transformation in law happens in small, deliberate steps.

This episode was recorded at Lexpo 2025 and combines personal lessons with practical insights on legal processes, innovation and the role of AI in the legal profession.

Disclaimer: we are not affiliated with Saga or with any other legal AI vendor. This conversation is not sponsored, and we do not promote specific AI tools on this podcast.

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Arne is the founder of DesignThinkers Group, known for helping global organisations navigate change and reimagine their cultures. Together, they unpack how law firms and legal departments can adapt before disruption forces their hand.

They discuss why change always starts with people, how fear blocks innovation, and what leadership must do to make transformation stick. If you’ve ever wondered how to prepare your firm or department for the uncertainty ahead, this conversation is for you.

Key insights

• Success can be dangerous. When everything is going well, urgency disappears. Arne explains how giants like Nokia and Kodak missed the moment to adapt — and why law firms should challenge comfort before disruption does.
• Change is constant, not an event. Transformation isn’t a project with a finish line. It’s a mindset of continuous adaptation built on trust and honesty.
• Start small, but start now. Big transformation plans fail because they try to change everything at once. Arne shares why creating safe spaces to experiment builds real momentum.
• Flip the pyramid. True change demands a new kind of leadership — one that serves rather than commands. Leaders must create the conditions for others to excel.

Arne leaves us with one simple principle for the future: Change isn’t something to complete — it’s something to live and breathe all of the time. The firms that thrive will be those that stay curious, stay honest, and build trust into every decision.

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We unpack the question every firm should be asking: “How will we earn our money in five years?”

Topics we cover:

•⁠ ⁠The client–firm win–win matrix: where sustainable value actually sits

•⁠ ⁠Moving from hours to outcomes: value-based pricing that aligns incentives

•⁠ ⁠Productised contracting built with clients (templates, automation, thresholds)

•⁠ ⁠Preventative, business-tuned regulatory and compliance services

•⁠ ⁠Operating like a corporate: real roles for tech, finance, and BD

•⁠ ⁠The “soft governance” partners must model for adoption to stick

If you’re rethinking your model, pricing, and client relationships in the age of AI, this one’s for you.

Beyond Billable – Driving Conversations is a collaboration with NIO Nederland.

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We behandelen:

• Hoe Houthoff een early mover werd met generatieve AI

• Hoe een gedisciplineerde uitrol eruitziet (training, “use it or lose it,” meetbare adoptie)

• Waarom je op dit moment meerdere tools nodig hebt om legal AI te laten werken

• De moeilijke onderdelen: uitgeverscontent, kennisintegraties, DMS-beperkingen

• Houthoff 2030: het modelleren van de impact van AI op vaardigheden, pricing en het opleidingsmodel

• Pricing: waar fixed fees logisch zijn en waar het urenmodel nog steeds de voorkeur heeft

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We cover:

• How Houthoff became an early mover with generative AI

• What a disciplined rollout looks like (training, “use it or lose it,” measurable adoption)

• Why you currently need multiple tools to make legal AI work

• The hard parts: publisher content, knowledge integrations, DMS constraints

• Houthoff 2030: modeling AI’s impact on skills, pricing, and the training ladder

• Pricing: where fixed fees make sense and where billable hours still win

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She brings both the perspective of someone who has lived the realities of law firms and the vision of someone shaping how AI can make legal work faster, more efficient, and more meaningful.

Suzanne and Pim talk about what it takes to get lawyers to actually adopt technology, the opportunities and risks AI brings to firms and in-house teams, and how platforms and point solutions may coexist in the years to come. Suzanne also shares her thoughts on the changing leverage model in big law, the rise of boutique firms, and why trust and relationships remain at the core of innovation.

So buckle up and enjoy Beyond Billable, Driving Conversations with Suzanne van der Klip.

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Our conversation explores the crossroads where today’s legal departments find themselves: flooded with regulation, stretched by demand, and now confronted with AI tools that can transform not just efficiency, but the very way legal delivers value. Hans argues that adoption alone is not enough — true transformation requires rethinking processes, culture, and the role of the lawyer itself.

Far from being the “easier” alternative to private practice, the in-house counsel role is more demanding and complex than ever before. Yet, as Hans makes clear, it is also one of the most rewarding. The lawyers who thrive will be those who broaden their skill set into technology, process, and operations, and position themselves closer to the business.

We cover the following topics:

• Introduction: Driving Conversations in a NIO
• The In-House counsel role
• Challenges for legal departments
• From efficiency to strategy
• Adoption vs. transformation
• Law Firms at risk
• Future skills for lawyers
• Who should we interview next?

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We discuss why he left big law to help firms and legal departments do things differently. His focus: making sure highly trained lawyers spend less time on low-value work and more time on what truly matters.

We explore the core elements of meaningful change: people, process, and technology, but also the biggest obstacle to real innovation in the legal sector: the billable hour. Dick explains why this outdated model kills the incentive to improve and makes a compelling case for fixed or project-based fees.

We cover:

- Why the billable hour kills innovation

 - How to align people, process & tech for real change

 - How fixed fees drive better outcomes—for clients and firms

- Why firms must rethink the traditional leverage model

- Why pricing strategy is the gateway to real transformation

It’s a conversation packed with practical insights on pricing strategy and change management, delivered with Dick’s signature pragmatism.

Whether you're in a law firm or a legal department, expect plenty of food for thought on how to deliver better legal services at lower cost and with higher quality. I hope you enjoy this candid and thought-provoking conversation with Dick van Lankeren Matthes.

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We bespreken:

•Waarom in jezelf geloven een superkracht is voor juristen

•De verborgen schade van motivatie door angst en hoe je echte veiligheid creëert

•Hoe je een psychologisch veilige cultuur bouwt (en waarom dat leidt tot hogere kwaliteit)

•Wat leiders kunnen leren van zeilen en Silicon Valley

•Waarom sturen op werkplezier beter werkt dan sturen op declarabele uren

•Hoe wandelen je EQ, creativiteit én declarabiliteit verhoogt

•Waarom feedback zo vaak pijn doet

•Wat het Zeigarnik-effect betekent voor juridisch werk en je brein

•Concrete tips om je energie te managen

Praktisch, persoonlijk en raak. Dit gesprek zet aan tot anders kijken en anders doen.

Abonneer je op The Brief on AI om een seintje te krijgen zodra de aflevering live staat: https://pimbetist.substack.com/ 

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We cover:

- Why believing in yourself is a superpower for lawyers

- The hidden damage of “stick” motivation and how to build real trust

- How to create a psychologically safe culture (and why it leads to higher quality)

- What leaders can learn from sailing and Silicon Valley

- Why managing for enjoyment beats managing for billable hours

- How walking boosts EQ, creativity—and even billing

- The real reason feedback stings so much

- What the Zeigarnik Effect means for legal work and brain health

- Concrete tips to manage your energy

This is one of the most human-centered, practical conversations we’ve had and it might just change how you think about leadership.

Subscribe to The Brief on AI to get notified as soon as the episode goes live: https://pimbetist.substack.com/

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Jeroen explains how law firms can move from selling hours to building scalable legal products—and why that shift is both urgent and challenging. We discuss the cultural hurdles, the need for real sales skills, and the risk of being left behind as clients demand more tech-enabled solutions.

Enjoy this sharp, honest conversation about the future of legal work and what it takes to stay ahead.

Beyond Billable is a collaboration with NIO House Amsterdam and Lexpo, the legal innovation event.

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Op het eerste gezicht lijkt Douwe de typische legaltech-evangelist: een oud-advocaat die AI promoot als de toekomst van het vak. Maar dit gesprek onthult een veel complexere waarheid. Douwe maakte Barney niet zomaar om technologische vooruitgang te vieren. Hij deed het uit urgentie en, zoals hij zelf zegt, zelfs uit angst.

Hij spreekt openhartig over de razendsnelle opkomst van AI en hoe het grootste deel van de juridische sector zorgwekkend laks blijft. Voor Douwe gaat het omarmen van AI niet om hype of vrijblijvende innovatie; het is pure overlevingsstrategie. Hij waarschuwt dat advocaten die niet nú beginnen met het gebruiken en echt begrijpen van deze tools, straks volledig buitenspel staan.

We praten ook over zijn creatieve proces: hoe zijn ervaring met het opstellen van juridische teksten verrassend goed van pas kwam bij het schrijven van AI-prompts voor film, en waarom leren prompten volgens hem een van de waardevolste skills is die een jurist vandaag kan ontwikkelen.

Douwe’s boodschap is helder, al is die wat ongemakkelijk: kijk deze verandering recht in de ogen, want er is geen alternatief.

Beyond Billable is een samenwerking met NIO House Amsterdam en Lexpo, the Legal Tech Event.

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On the surface, Douwe might look like the archetypal legal-tech evangelist: a former lawyer championing AI as the future of the profession. But this conversation reveals a more complex truth. Douwe didn’t make Barney just to celebrate technological progress. He made it out of urgency and, in his own words, even fear.

He talks candidly about the accelerating advance of AI and how most of the legal sector remains worryingly complacent. For Douwe, adopting AI isn’t about hype or optional innovation; it’s a survival strategy. He warns that unless lawyers start using and truly understanding these tools now, they risk being left behind entirely.

We also dive into his creative process: how legal drafting skills surprisingly translated into writing AI prompts for film, and why learning to prompt effectively might be one of the most valuable skills any lawyer can develop today.

Douwe's message is clear, if a bit unsettling: confront this change head-on because there is no alternative.

Beyond Billable is a collaboration with NIO House Amsterdam and Lexpo, the Legal Innovation Event.

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Together, they explore how Mirjam and her team turned a “treasure trove of information” into practical, AI-powered tools that are transforming legal services from the inside out. From launching a searchable case library using open-source LLMs to integrating data scientists directly into legal teams, Mirjam shares a blueprint for meaningful innovation in the legal sector—without the buzzwords or the fearmongering.

What sets this story apart is that it didn’t come from a flashy legal tech startup, but from within government. Mirjam's approach to scenario thinking, culture change, and responsible AI adoption is a masterclass in legal leadership.

Her message to legal leaders? Start small. Build trust. And above all, don’t wait. “If we, as legal professionals, don’t help shape how technology is used, someone else will.”

This episode is essential listening for anyone in legal leadership looking to make AI a force for good in their work.

Beyond Billable is a collaboration with NIO House Amsterdam.

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Hoe krijg je 200 juristen mee in een transitie naar een data-gedreven manier van werken? En hoe investeer je in innovatie zónder dat je vooraf weet wat het precies gaat opleveren? Mirjam deelt haar aanpak, inclusief de strategische keuzes, de opbouw van het team, de scenario’s in haar hoofd én waarom je soms bewust moet kiezen om nieuwe mensen zonder juridische achtergrond aan te nemen.

Dit gesprek is een must-listen voor iedere partner of manager die zijn of haar juridische organisatie toekomstbestendig wil maken. Want zoals Mirjam zelf zegt: “Als wij als juristen geen verantwoordelijkheid nemen voor de inzet van technologie, dan gaat iemand anders het voor ons doen.”

Beyond Billable is een samenwerking met NIO House Amsterdam.

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We unpack what it really takes to adopt AI in legal practice—how to track the right metrics, how to move beyond shelfware, and how to hit ‘wow moments’ where AI proves its value. From entire workflow enhancements to the shifting dynamics of legal service delivery, Peter lays out a compelling vision of where things are headed—and why this is the most exciting (and uncertain) time to be in legal.

Beyond Billable is a collaboration with NIO House Amsterdam.

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The conversation shifts to AI, where Menno champions a balanced approach—using tools like ChatGPT and Perplexity for efficiency, but with a sharp legal eye to ensure compliance with European standards. With insights into the future of legal practice, including the potential for AI agents in courtrooms and the shift away from the billable hour, this episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the intersection of law, technology, and data privacy.

Beyond Billable is a collaboration with NIO House Amsterdam.

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This episode is in Dutch. We’ll share an English version with the main insights soon!

In deze aflevering van Beyond Billable duiken we samen met Menno Weij – advocaat bij The Data Lawyers en autoriteit op het gebied van tech en privacy – in de juridische en praktische implicaties van generatieve AI voor de advocatuur.

We starten bij de actualiteit: is het juridisch toelaatbaar om persoonsgegevens op Amerikaanse servers te zetten, nu Trump de Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board buiten werking heeft gesteld? Menno legt helder uit wat dit betekent voor het EU-US Data Privacy Framework, en waarom dit fundamentele gevolgen heeft voor de manier waarop Europese bedrijven – en advocatenkantoren – met data omgaan.

Daarna schakelen we door naar de praktijk. Wat doe je als je als advocatenkantoor aan de slag wil met generatieve AI? Menno biedt concrete handvatten: van het opstellen van een praktisch en schaalbaar AI-beleid tot het veilig en effectief gebruik van tools als ChatGPT, Claude en Perplexity. Geen wollige beleidsstukken, maar gezond verstand, bewustzijn van risico’s, en vooral: beginnen.

Tot slot werpen we een blik op de toekomst. Wat als generatieve AI zich in het huidige tempo blijft ontwikkelen? We bespreken een scenario waarin AI-assistenten niet alleen ondersteunen, maar mogelijk zelfs procederen – en wat dat betekent voor het businessmodel van de advocatuur.

Een aflevering vol praktische inzichten, strategische adviezen en toekomstvisies die je aan het denken zetten. Of je nu partner bent in een groot kantoor of startend advocaat: deze aflevering wil je niet missen.

Beyond Billable is een samenwerking met NIO House Amsterdam. 

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My conversation with Chris sheds some light on the secret behind Legora's success. Legora isn't scaring clients into buying their product. They see their endeavor as a collaborative journey towards artificial general intelligence. They focus on what is actually possible now and nail these functionalities in such a way that anyone can use them. 

We discussed three main topics in the following order. 

1. What is artificial general intelligence and when will we reach it? 

2. What is Legora and how is it beneficial for legal professionals? 

3. We end with important advice to legal professionals about AI adoption. 

It’s a conversation that not only explores the promise of AI in legal, but also offers grounded, actionable insight into how lawyers can start embracing this transformation—today.

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