Bourbon Pursuit

280 - Is Bourbon the Next Big Trend? with Brandy Rand, COO of IWSR

Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:30:04 GMT

We’re currently experiencing the biggest boom there has ever been with bourbon. But is it going to be overshadowed by the seltzer movement? And we all know that COVID has impacted every single business sector, but what has it done to alcohol and, most importantly, bourbon? From the outside it seems that business is good, but Brandy Rand, COO for IWSR who specializes in drinks analysis and trends, provides a scientific view as well as reality check on where the market is moving.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Use code "PURSUIT" to receive $100 off. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit https://bourbo.nz/agedandore.
Stop putting stickers on picks and take total control of your own private label with Krogman's. Learn more at Krogmans.com.

Show Notes:

Receive IWSR’s weekly industry insights email: https://bourbonpursuit.com/iwsr
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about labels.
Who was your childhood actor or actress crush?
What is IWSR?
How do you gather data?
How were you all tracking bourbon growth years ago?
Do you classify canned cocktails as hard seltzers?
Do you think cocktails to go will be an on going trend?
What impact are tariffs having globally?
Have you seen distilleries pivot their strategy due to tariffs and COVID?
What has happened to travel retail because of COVID?
Do you track e-commerce and shipping?
Do you follow Drizzly's data?
Where do you see bourbon growth in the next couple of years?

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Whiskey Quickie: 2020 Parker’s Heritage Collection

Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:30:52 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-MiB1px9wc&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review the 14th Edition of the Parker’s Heritage Collection. This 10 year old heavy char bourbon is 120 proof and $120 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

DISCLAIMER: The whiskey in this review was provided to us at no cost courtesy of the spirit producer. We were not compensated by the spirit producer for this review. This is our honest opinion based on what we tasted. Please drink responsibly.

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279 - The Coveted Bourbon County Brand Stout with Bill Savage of Goose Island

Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:30:24 GMT

While the rest of society is busting down the doors on Black Friday for TVs, the beer lovers are hitting up every liquor store to grab the most iconic barrel aged stouts on the market coming from Goose Island. Every year, Bourbon County Stout has beer lovers drooling to see what variants will be released. We’re joined by Bill Savage, a lead brewer for the barrel aging program at Goose Island, to get an inside look into one of my favorite beers of all time. We talk about the time that goes into this yearly release and what happens when yeast goes wild.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Use code "PURSUIT" to receive $100 off. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit https://bourbo.nz/agedandore.
Stop putting stickers on picks and take total control of your own private label with Krogman's. Learn more at Krogmans.com.

Show Notes:

Kroger’s Ultimate Bourbon Auction: https://one.bidpal.net/zero/welcome
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about bourbons to pair with Thanksgiving.
How old is the oldest pair of shoes in your closet?
How long have you been with Goose Island?
How did you end up working in the Goose Island Barrel Program?
Tell us about the process.
How many barrels are going into the release?
How long do you age it in the barrel?
Do you test each barrel?
Can you over age a barrel?
Do you reuse barrels?
What's the rationale for the high ABV?
How do you pick your variants?
What's the thought process behind the collaborations with distilleries?
Are you exploring aging other styles?

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Whiskey Quickie: Michter’s 10 Year Single Barrel Rye Whiskey

Tue, 10 Nov 2020 10:30:21 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Michter’s 10 Year Single Barrel Rye Whiskey. This 10 year old rye is 92.8 proof and $160 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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278 - How Brands and Retailers Can Mine Data with Mike Provance of 3x3

Thu, 05 Nov 2020 10:30:46 GMT

Every business wants to make their marketing dollars stretch further. The focus has shifted to targeting demographics through Facebook campaigns, social media, and even podcasts. We’re joined by Mike Provance of 3x3 to see how brands and liquor stores are using their platform to reach new customers.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Use code "PURSUIT" to receive $100 off. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit https://bourbo.nz/agedandore.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about wax.
What sport would you compete in if you were in the Olympics?
Tell us about your platform.
How do you convince retailers to adopt this digital trend?
How can you make your dollar stretch further with your platform?
How do stores learn what their customers like?
What do you use to build audiences?
Does more marketing spending by a supplier benefit the retailer?
How is shipping changing your business?
Influencer marketing vs. targeting marketing?
What about in-store experiences?

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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Whiskey Quickie: Old Forester 150th Anniversary Batch #1

Tue, 03 Nov 2020 10:30:56 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Old Forester 150th Anniversary Batch #1. This non-age stated bourbon is 125.6 proof and $150 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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277 - Banning Van Winkle Sales, Do We Feel The Same?, and Who Said That? on Bourbon Community Roundtable #50

Thu, 29 Oct 2020 10:30:48 GMT

It’s the 50th Bourbon Community Roundtable! 4.5 years later and we are at a milestone podcast. I won’t get sappy because there is plenty of that towards the end, but we kick off the show talking about the recent news of many secondary groups banning Van Winkle Sales. Then we take a look back at our time together and play a few games of “who said that?”.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Use code "PURSUIT" to receive $100 off. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit https://bourbo.nz/agedandore.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Halloween candy.
Secondary groups have banned Pappy Van Winkle sales. What are your thoughts?
Do we still feel the same about our top 5 bourbons for beginners?
Are we still tired of $100 MGP… now $150 MGP bourbons?
Let’s play a game of Who Said That?

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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Whiskey Quickie: Rabbit Hole Boxergrail Founder’s Collection

Tue, 27 Oct 2020 10:30:08 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Rabbit Hole Boxergrail Founder’s Collection. This 6 year old rye is 114.6 proof and $195 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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276 - Tasting the Old Charter Oak Series with Joshua Steely of Buffalo Trace

Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:30:05 GMT

Joshua Steeley, Marketing Director for Bourbon at Buffalo Trace, joins the show to cover the Old Charter Oak series. It’s a line extension that focuses on the effect different types of oak have on the bourbon. We’re talking oak harvested from all over the world and some of the oak being hundreds of years old.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Use code "PURSUIT" to receive $100 off. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit https://bourbo.nz/agedandore.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about decanters.
What's the most ridiculous thing someone has tricked you into doing or believing?
Tell us about your role at Buffalo Trace.
Any brands you are putting more effort behind?
Are you going to have a part in Early Times?
How did you get into bourbon and end up at Buffalo Trace?
Let's talk about Old Charter Oak.
How do you decide what bourbon goes into each brand?
Tell us about your experimental process.
Old Charter Oak Tasting.
Where do you source your barrels from?
Talk about what went into the packaging design.
How hard is it to find this brand?
What is the price point?
Any failed experiments?

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Whiskey Quickie: 2020 Buffalo Trace Antique Collection (BTAC)

Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:30:30 GMT

On this special edition of Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review the 2020 Buffalo Trace Antique Collection in five 60 second reviews. The collection includes: Sazerac Rye 18 Year, Thomas H. Handy, Eagle Rare 17 Year, William Larue Weller, and George T. Stagg. Each bottle has a suggested retail price of $99. What's our favorite this year? Watch to find out. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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275 - Growing Distillers on the Family Farm with the Hubers of Starlight Distillery

Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:30:31 GMT

We’re joined by Ted, Christian, and Blake to talk about the family history on the farm that led them to have DSP-IN-31, which is a super super low number when it comes to a distilled spirits producer. We take a few twists, but there is one thing we came away with and that’s how this family never settles with a single recipe, single barrel entry proof, single cooperage, or even a single distiller. These three take turns at the helm steering their bourbon in a new direction. After recording, we went to the warehouse and tasted 12 or 15 different barrels and not one of the two was alike. Make sure you try a single barrel selection from Starlight Distillery and you will know what I’m talking about.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Use code "PURSUIT" to receive $100 off. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit https://bourbo.nz/agedandore.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about media packages.
Would you rather be an astronaut or an olympic gold medalist?
Talk about the history of the farm and distillery.
What law allowed MGP to operate as a distillery?
Talk about your brandy.
What were the learning curves when transitioning from brandy to whiskey?
Tell us about the bourbon.
What's the difference between a brandy still and a whiskey still?
Why do you use so many different cooperages?
Is there a better time of year to pull barrels?
Tell us about your corn varieties.
Talk about your latest releases.
What is Carl T.?

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Whiskey Quickie: King of Kentucky 2020

Tue, 13 Oct 2020 10:30:26 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review King of Kentucky 2020. This 14 year old bourbon is 130.6 proof and $250 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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274 - What is Sourced Whiskey?

Thu, 08 Oct 2020 10:30:05 GMT

What is sourced whiskey? It can mean a lot of different things and many of us bourbon geeks feel some do it better than others. There is contract distillation and there is outright buying barrels, but it’s what you are doing with the bourbon that makes the story. We evaluate some of the most iconic brands that built their legacy off of sourcing and then look at today’s market to see who is doing something special versus simply slapping a label on a bottle.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.
The Duo Glass and Travel Decanter. Innovative products from Aged & Ore to compliment your bourbon. Visit AgedAndOre.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about barrel finishes.
How do you know when something is sourced?
How do you source whiskey?
What brands are sourced?
What about pricing sourced whiskey?
What kind of influence has sourced whiskey had on the industry?
What is more respectable, starting a brand sourced and then transitioning to your own distillate or starting with your own distillate?
What about contract distilling?
What are the primary places to source from?

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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Whiskey Quickie: Angel's Envy Mizunara Cask

Tue, 06 Oct 2020 10:30:40 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Angel's Envy Mizunara Cask. It is a blend of 4 and 9 year old bourbon, is 97.8 proof, and $350 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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273 - Brand Names, Barrel Proof Extensions, and In-Person vs Online Releases on Bourbon Community Roundtable #49

Thu, 01 Oct 2020 10:30:55 GMT

This week we look at how the size of a distiller will put a focus on their core name brand vs creating extensions. We talk a little bit about what you can and can’t patent in the whiskey business. Next, we examine the new Old Forester 150th anniversary and our thoughts on whether you would rather see single barrel cask strength releases or create a wide release. Lastly, we cover what has gone right and what’s been done wrong with limited edition releases that have happened in person and online.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Minimize drink dilution without sacrificing chill power with Meltdown, the ultimate ice ball press. Learn more at MeltdownIce.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about how sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Orange juice, pulp or no pulp?
Why don't new Distillers/Bottlers differentiate their products more? For instance, Barrell Bourbon, Barrell Rye, Barrell Rum, Pinhook Rye, Pinhook Bourbon, Pinhook Cask Strength. Whereas Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, Sazerac Rye, etc.
What can and can't be patented in the whiskey business?
Old Forester drops 3 batches of cask strength at $150 per bottle. Before I saw the price, I thought it was going to be a competitor to ECBP or Bookers. Would you rather see wide releases at barrel proof or barrel selections at barrel proof? You can't choose both.
Angel's Envy Mizunara Cask, Old Forester Birthday Bourbon, Four Roses LE Releases. What has been done right and what went wrong?

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Whiskey Quickie: Four Roses 2020 Limited Edition Small Batch

Tue, 29 Sep 2020 10:30:26 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Four Roses 2020 Limited Edition Small Batch. This 12-19 year old bourbon is 111.4 proof and $150 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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272 - Crafting Cocktails with Nic Christiansen of Barrell Craft Spirits

Thu, 24 Sep 2020 10:30:25 GMT

Well, you asked for another episode talking cocktails and that’s what you get. On this episode, we talk to Nic Christiansen who runs the single barrel program at Barrell Craft Spirits, but is also a nationally recognized bartender and cocktail competition champion. She talks about the variety of cocktails and how it’s really about swapping out simple ingredients to create endless possibilities. From a classic Old Fashioned or Mint Julep to creating your own bitters, this episode will have you wanting to create something unique of your own.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about bourbon heritage month.
What was your favorite tv show growing up as a kid?
Tell us about your background.
What made you decide to get into cocktails?
What bad habits did you learn when you first started making cocktails?
What is involved with being a beverage director?
How do you train bartenders?
How did you remember all those cocktails?
How do you make bitters?
How do you build a cocktail from an economic perspective?
What is your Old Fashioned recipe?
What is a Brown Derby?
What kind of ice do you prefer?
What do you think about the growing mixology culture?
Do you ever enter competitions?
What is your go to vermouth?
Rye vs. Bourbon in cocktails?
What are your thoughts on Rum cocktails?
How frustrated do you get when a place can't make a good cocktail?
Do you prefer different cocktails for different seasons?
Talk about using a raw egg in a New York Sour.
Where did you get the inspiration for your New York Sour?
Any upcoming cocktail trends?
What do you do on a daily basis?
Does your palate differ from Tripp and Joe?

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Whiskey Quickie: Elijah Craig Toasted Barrel

Tue, 22 Sep 2020 10:30:23 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Elijah Craig Toasted Barrel. This non-age stated bourbon is 94 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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271 - The Impossible Collection of Whiskey with Clay Risen

Thu, 17 Sep 2020 10:30:47 GMT

Clay Risen somehow narrowly escaped being a guest on the podcast, but we got him. We talk about some of his past work and his newest book, The Impossible Collection Of Whiskey: The 100 Most Exceptional And Collectible Bottles, that will be coming out in October 2020. So of course, we talk about chasing unicorns and our early bourbon regrets.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store or visit https://bourbo.nz/oakbottle.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about unity in bourbon.
Tell us about your books.
If you could be best friends with any celebrity, who would it be?
Do you feel like books need to be refreshed constantly?
Talk about the different kinds of rye.
What are your favorite ryes?
How did you become the whiskey guy?
What year did you get into whiskey?
What is one of your favorite pieces you've wrote?
Tell us about your new book.
How do you have time to venture out to all different kinds of whiskies?
Did you include specific vintages in your new book?
What about exports created for the Japanese market?
How hard would it be for you to open a rare whiskey?
Now that you are covering politics, are you drinking more whiskey?

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Whiskey Quickie: Old Forester 2020 Birthday Bourbon

Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:30:39 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Old Forester 2020 Birthday Bourbon. This 10 year old bourbon is 98 proof and $130 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

270 - Birthdays, Barrel Proof, and Presidents at Old Forester with Master Taster Jackie Zykan

Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:30:13 GMT

Old Forester is really starting to win over bourbon lovers. We are joined by our returning guest, Master Taster at Old Forester, Jackie Zykan, to chat about the 2020 Birthday Bourbon, the new barrel proof offering on the single barrel program, the story behind President's Choice, and much more. Have you tried an Old Forester 1915? Well, if you've never heard of it, get ready to start blending.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
Track your tasting notes and connect with other bourbon drinkers. Search for Oak Bottle App on the Apple App Store.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about labor strikes.
If you had a time machine would you go back in time or to the future?
Let's talk about 1915.
Tell us about working with Chris Morris and Birthday Bourbon.
How hard was it to get the single barrel program to be barrel proof?
What age barrels are going into the Whiskey Row Series?
How do the barrel picks work?
Tell us about President's Choice.

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Whiskey Quickie: Wild Turkey Rare Breed Rye

Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:30:33 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Wild Turkey Rare Breed Rye. This non-age stated bourbon is 112.2 proof and $60 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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269 - 80's Movies, Blanton’s SFTB, and Online Releases on Bourbon Community Roundtable #48

Thu, 03 Sep 2020 10:30:26 GMT

On this 48th edition of the bourbon community roundtable, we talk about 80's movies. Yes, it may have gone on a bit longer than anticipated, but it may have been the glory years of iconic movies. Then we dive into Blanton’s Straight From the Barrel and get into release season. Will the shift of having online releases be the new way forward?

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about bourbon heritage month.
80's movie showdown.
Blanton's SFTB now available in the US. $150 is a great price point. However, very limited. So why price this higher than BTAC? Was it Ancient Age that dictated it?
The Party Source tried to sell Blanton's Bourbon online, website crashed. Are there any good alternatives in the current climate?
Why are distilleries doing special releases on-site/inline only, but not permitting proxies to pick up?

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Whiskey Quickie: Bulleit Blenders Select

Tue, 01 Sep 2020 10:30:43 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu2UNe-zGqk&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Bulleit Blenders Select. This 9 year old bourbon is 100 proof and $60 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

DISCLAIMER: The whiskey in this review was provided to us at no cost courtesy of a Patreon supporter. We were not compensated by the spirit producer for this review. This is our honest opinion based on what we tasted. Please drink responsibly.

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268 - Baker’s Bourbon Blind Battle

Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:30:19 GMT

Baker’s is a brand that we’ve discussed previously with Beam’s ambassador Beth Burrows back on episode 95, but this time we go into the whiskey. A Patreon supporter sent 3 blind samples of Baker's: the new single barrel 7 year, the old 7 year small batch with the black wax that is no longer in production, and the most recent limited release of the Baker’s 13 year. Which one will come out on top? Stay tuned to find out.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about distillery firsts.
Baker's Tasting: New Baker's 7 Year Single Barrel, Baker's 13 Year, Old Baker's 7 Year Small Batch
Do you drink coffee?
Why did Baker's move from a small batch to a single barrel?
Why don't distilleries want to promote large batches?
Let's discuss special releases.
Blind Reveal
Fred, what did you see on the shelf back in the early 2000's?

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Whiskey Quickie: Basil Hayden's 10 Year Rye Whiskey

Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:30:04 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDuUzJBfdz4&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Basil Hayden's 10 Year Rye Whiskey. This 10 year old rye is 80 proof and $70 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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267 - Putting the High Malt in Bourbon with Tim Piersant and Grant McCracken of Chattanooga Whiskey

Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:30:18 GMT

What does it take to put all your money on the line, ignore the experts, fight the law, and spend years experimenting with different mash bills and barrels? That’s what Tim Piersant, CEO, and Grant McCracken, Head Distiller, of Chattanooga Whiskey did. Against all odds, they launched a bourbon that features Tennessee High Malt. We talk about the early successes and challenges of the business and get into the whiskey itself.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
The Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. has personalized oak barrels and at-home whiskey making kits. Get 10% off everything with code "BP2020" at 1000oaksbarrel.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about SRPs.
What kind of music do you like?
Tell us about your background.
How did you get into whiskey?
Do you have a favorite kind of beer?
When did it become legal to distill in Chattanooga?
Tell us about the early days of the business.
How did you fund the business?
How did you decide what kind of whiskey you wanted to make?
Talk about the experimental distillery.
Why did you decide to use malt?
How did you know it would have future potential?
How did you recreate the process to scale up?
How did you know when it was ready to be released?
Tell us about your entry and distillation proof.
Talk about the high proof version.
What can we expect to see in the future?

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Whiskey Quickie: Filibuster Single Estate

Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:30:08 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Filibuster Single Estate. This 2 year 5 month old bourbon is 117.6 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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266 - State Bourbon Battle: New York vs. Kentucky

Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:30:54 GMT

In this podcast, we look to see if there are any distilleries in New York that can take on good old fashioned Kentucky bourbon. Dan Walkski, Manager of Fine Spirits at Midvalley Wine and Liquor in Newburgh, NY shares some of his favorites from the region and we taste them in a blind battle. There’s a few surprises thrown in that cause some major upsets. Tune in to see what state comes out on top.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about age statements.
How did you get into bourbon?
What is the bourbon scene like in Newburgh, NY?
What is the largest growing spirit in your store?
Tasting of New York and Kentucky whiskies.
Do you get a lot of allocated bourbon?
What do encourage your customers to try since you don't get a lot of allocated items?
What is a good gateway bourbon?
How to you price bottles in the store?
Do you put all your bottles for sale online?
Have you visited all these NY distilleries?

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Whiskey Quickie: Knob Creek 15 Year

Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:30:36 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Knob Creek 15 Year. This 15 year old bourbon is 100 proof and $100 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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265 - Weller CYPB Data, Basil Hayden’s Changing Identity, Toasted Barrels, and Our Favorites So Far on Bourbon Community Roundtable #47

Thu, 06 Aug 2020 10:30:59 GMT

We look at the recently released results of the Weller CYPB data and ask ourselves if this data matches up to a normal consumer or a bourbon enthusiast. Make sure you check out yourperfectbourbon.com to see how well the site and survey is done. We then examine Basil Hayden and our thoughts behind the brand’s evolving character of having blends, finishes, and high aged expressions. And what’s up with all the toasted barrels recently? Will there be more to come? Lastly, we wrap it up with our favorite bourbon so far in 2020.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Penelope Bourbon is a new award-winning four grain bourbon from a unique blend of three bourbon mash bills. Available in select markets and online at PenelopeBourbon.com.
You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about craft distillers.
Weller CYPB and the data. Does it add up?
Basil Hayden and it's shifting identity.
Are Toasted Barrels all the rage now? Old Forester 1910, Michter's, and now Elijah Craig.
What's the best bourbon you've tried so far this year?

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Whiskey Quickie: Larceny Barrel Proof Batch B520

Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:30:57 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Larceny Barrel Proof Batch B520. This non-age stated bourbon is 122.2 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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264 - Artfully Blending and Finishing with Nancy Fraley

Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:30:08 GMT

Nancy Fraley is world-renowned for her expertise on blending… or is it mingling? In this podcast, we talk about the difference between blending and mingling, but also go into barrel sizes, terroir, and the art of barrel finishing. Spoiler alert, here’s another industry veteran who isn’t a fan of small barrels.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about hats.
Tell us about your background.
How did you get on the blending path?
What is a french style?
What are other styles of blending?
Let's talk blending vs. mingling.
Talk about blending trends you are seeing internationally and in the US.
What is terroir?
What characteristics are you looking for when blending?
Tell us about the impact of barrel size and climate on the bourbon.
How do you decide what kind of cask you want to finish a bourbon in?
How do you test a finish?
What type of whiskey works better for finishing?
How often do you sample?
How do you figure out how long you finish a bourbon in a barrel?
Are there any tried and true casks?
Should the finishing barrel be empty?

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Whiskey Quickie: Wild Turkey Master's Keep

Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:30:26 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Wild Turkey Master's Keep 5th Edition. This 17 year old bourbon is 100 proof and $175 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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263 - Distillation Deep Dive with Tripp Stimson of Barrell Bourbon

Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:30:10 GMT

Many of us know the basics of distillation, but only a few know the true science. Today, we’re joined by Tripp Stimson of Barrell Bourbon and we ask all the hard questions on distillation that we’ve always wanted to know. This is really for the geeks at heart because it goes into pH levels, yeast strains, malting processes, and so much more. Listen close to the expert because it’s definitely one show where you will learn something new about the distillation process.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about bourbon in the movies.
What are your goals for the year?
Tell us about your background.
Let's talk about grains.
Does it matter where the grain comes from?
What happens after getting the grain?
Does the size of the mash tub matter?
What is the percentage of mash to water?
What's the best way to mix the mash?
How long is the process?
How do you know the mash is ready?
What grain do you add in first?
Talk about malted grain.
What happens next?
What is the consistency of the product when going from the mash tub to the fermentation tank?
Let's talk about yeast.
What about a mash rest?
What is the chemical breakdown during fermentation?
Why do some people do closed vs. open fermentation?
What determines the number of days for fermentation?
Do different grains change the process?
What is sour mash?
Let's talk about the pH of the water.
Is the flavor more consistent in a sour mash process vs. sweet mash?
Do you use a bourbon backset in a rye mash?
What happens after fermentation?
Talk about the shape of stills.
After the still where does it go?
What happens in the doubler?
What are heads, hearts and tails?
What are the health risks of the process?
What's the difference between the column still and pot still?
When do you get the waste out?
How do you control the proof coming off the still?
What is the argument for a low entry proof?
Does it have to be the exact proof listed on the label?
How do you get a final proof when using multiple barrels?
How do you clean the equipment?
Does an older still produce a different flavor?
What are you looking for when picking rum?

Support this Podcast on Patreon

0:00 Let's give folks a reintroduction of like your background and where you got in to the industry and how are you qualified to teach us about this?

0:09 Let's go ahead like where's your degree here? I was the only one you could get to sit down.

0:14 He's only one answer call.

0:28 This was Episode 263 of bourbon pursuit podcast featuring news reviews and interviews with people making the bourbon whiskey industry happen. Before we start the podcast, here's your weekly bourbon news update. Last week, we revealed the news first on social media that a demolition permit has been submitted to take down the 130 year old national distillers Rick house in Louisville, Kentucky. The building has been deemed unsafe by structural engineers. There's a partial collapse of the roof and the interior support being

1:00 are deteriorating with significant amount of moldy buildup. It's sad to see this historic building be torn down after all the years of neglect since it was never being used. Now on a bourbon release news, the 2020 edition of Yellowstone limited edition Kentucky straight bourbon will be on shelves in September, featuring a seven year old straight bourbon finished in French Armagnac barrels. Approximately 5000 cases of this bourbon are being produced at limestone branch distillery, bottled at 101 proof, it will have a suggested retail price of $99 and 99 cents. In bourbon pursuit news. We're continuing to select more and more barrels for our private bourbon club. This week, we selected two more barrels at four roses and oh ESB and an OB sq. Both 10 and a half years old. This is going to make 22 barrels selected so far this year, and we're not done yet. So if you want to see how you can support this podcast, and get access to some great private barrels, along with

2:00 First access to pursuit series. Join us patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. This is one podcast. We were super excited to record. Way back on episode 88. We did a back to basics about bourbon. And now we're going deep dive into the distillation process. It's all the hard questions on distillation that we've wanted to know. And we've got Tripp Simpson from barrel bourbon here to go all scientific on us. Listen close to the expert because it's definitely one of those shows, where you're going to learn something new about the distillation process, bourbon pursuits UP FOR A People's Choice Award for podcasts and we need your help. Go to podcast awards, calm and register to vote as a listener. I know registering sucks, but please vote for us and the People's Choice and the arts category. It would be really awesome to win this thing. Now do you want to get some awesome bourbon rye and rums shipped straight to your door? barrel bourbon now has online ordering you can get

3:00 award winning products right now. Go to barrel bourbon calm and click the Buy Now button. With that, enjoy today's episode. Here's Fred Minnick with above the char.

3:12 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char, as I hope this old forester 1897 in my hands, I turned it to the back and I read this quote, The truth is, I prefer whiskey, Laura Howard. And that's from the alienness A TNT show. There's like an engraving on here. Not really entirely sure what the connection between old for certain alienist is. I'm sure it's in a press release or something that was emailed to me that I just didn't read. But

3:48 I will say the bottle got me to thinking about all of the incredible moments bourbon has had in pop culture. Whether you want to talk about Blanton's being

4:00 Everywhere have Pappy Van Winkle being written into the intern's or justified basically pouring more bourbon than most people do in their lifetime on a single episode, or you want to go back to, you know, the 1960s where it was seemingly on every single show with a man smoking a cigarette in a back corner. But I'll tell you my favorite. My favorite connection to Hollywood is the hustler JT s Brown is basically a drink of choice and they talk about bourbon and its qualities that you know you didn't really see a lot of most people when bourbon is in the conversation. It's just part of the conversation. Well here here's a drink tastes so good. You like it. Now let's keep talking about taxes or killing uncle john or whatever. Whereas in like the hustler, they actually did talk about how it was made. They talked about

5:00 You know, eight year old bourbon being the very best, and so forth and so on. And so we get a chance and you want to go down like movie lane and you want to watch an old flick while you're quarantined and bored up to your eyeballs. Go check out the movie, the hustler. And while you're doing it, make sure you're pouring yourself a little JTS Brown. While I may not be the same, it's pretty cool to drink the same thing as Paul Newman. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or whatever. Just look for my name Fred minich. Until next week, cheers

5:43 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Ryan back in our usual recording station with a friend of the show. It's been on here a few times already, but this time, we're taking this kind of the next level because this was a a listener requested show of saying like, Listen like

6:00 We understand we go on the tours, we get the 51% stuff all the time. But like, Where's that we need to answer some hard questions. And, you know, we always go back. And I think it was like February 2018. We did like a back to basics sort of month, way back then. And we kind of got an overview of some of this, but this time, I'm really excited because we're going to be going deep dive into the distillation process. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, we get on these tours all the time. And sometimes I know what they're talking about. And a lot of times I'm just nodding my head. Yes. Like acting like I know what they're talking about. So yeah, I'm super excited love having Tripp on his front of the show, and he's getting to test out his new, you know, equipment he paid for. So we appreciate it. We always appreciate Barrow and being able to help support the podcast, have all this nice new equipment too. So it's, yeah, absolutely. So no, super excited about it. Because, yeah, we're like we've always said, we don't know shit about distilling. So we're glad to have someone here who does so

7:00 There are people that went to school for this so that they do know what they're talking about from time to time. Absolutely. So let's go to introduce our guest today. So today on the show you've heard him before in previous podcast, but we have Tripp stimpson. He is the master distiller and Director of Operations at barrel bourbon. So Tripp welcome back. Thanks for having me guys. Good to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So Joe keeping you busy. Always, never dull moment. So what's you know, we were talking earlier, talking about your goals with some Joe goals for the year. Are you guys coming off that big banner year of 2020, all those metals, large blogging, I guess, lofty, lofty goals. We've got looking at doing the usual probably for bourbon batches. We've got a right three batch. It'll be coming out here soon. We actually brought that with us today.

7:45 We got some infinite releases. We've got dovetail. We've got. We're doing some fun things with finishes. I don't want to shine the light too much on that. Well, we can talk about that another time. But there's some really, really interesting things coming out coming down the line this year. So

8:00 Stay tuned. salutely So before we kind of dive into a lot of this stuff, I think people need to know about, you know, your background and sort of like, you know, we've I think we've talked about it before, but like, let's give folks a reintroduction of like your background and where you got in to the industry and how are you qualified to teach us about this?

8:18 Like, like, Where's your degree here? I was the only one you could get to sit down.

8:23 He's the only one answer call.

8:27 Okay, um, so, my backgrounds in biochemistry, molecular biology, degrees from college, I went straight from college and started work for brown Forman as a research and development scientist. I spent

8:43 10 years 10 years with brown Forman in various roles, analytical chemistry, benchtop chemistry, microbiology, doing a lot of distillery sciences and easting and distillery efficiencies. Left brown foreman, I started a consulting company

9:00 There was really focused on the craft side of the business. At the time, there were people just getting into this glorified distillery business with these great dreams of if you build it, they will come kind of ideas. And I wanted to really bring a level of expertise to these people that show that it wasn't all really a bowl of cherries, you know, this is really what you're going to be doing for whole areas.

9:30 And lay it out there real time and say, you know, this is your investment. This is how long you're going to wait for your return. And this is how hard you're going to work. And really put that into context before people would take the leap. So I did that for a handful of years. And met Joe through that process. We began working together six been six years, six years ago this year. And we've been working together ever since we're very similar view on

10:00 On the approach to everything, and it just works. And he sold you on the dream of distillery.

10:07 We're working diligently.

10:10 We're getting there. still dreaming it up.

10:14 So you know, you're you have this idea of also doing distillery but you know, we really kind of want to go and really kind of really pick your brain here. Because as we start getting into what does the distilling process look like? Like I said, let's kind of let's kind of go a little bit, you know, start from finish. And, you know, I think this is really gonna be focused on a lot of the bourbon nerds and the bourbon geeks out there that really want to dive in, they want to know exactly like, you know, what do you have to do to make sure that there's no contamination, no bacteria, like our pH levels of thing. Or, like, you know, when you're in the fermentation, like, everybody never buys tanks, so special fermentation tanks, that's Ryan's thing. Everybody's got their special fermentation tanks. You know, like, you know, how much gas can really come off there. And that's

11:00 Because you see some that have, you know, clothes, you have some that are open, you have some that are outdoor, you have some that have huge vacuums on them. So I think we'll, we'll tackle some of those things there. But you know, I guess let's start at the very beginning of the distillation process. And I mean, I would imagine it just kind of starts with grains, right? It does. And it's always funny to me, where, you know, we always jump in, and we talk about the distillation process. And to me, I always think of that is starting a movie halfway through, you know, you've left out so much of the important stuff prior to this distillation process that really affects your distillation. So if we go all the way back to,

11:37 to the grains and deciding what your grain bill is going to be, and how we treat the grains, where does it come from? How do you mill your grains? particle size actually plays a big part in this when you're milling your grains, if you go down to say a powder versus like a grist like the beer guys would use the you will get different fermentations out of both of those. Okay, so let's let's hit that point.

12:00 Right there. So, assuming you're using different kinds of machines to get the different, like I said the different variable of like, Is it a powder versus like a, I guess like a grist or whatever it is a grist or grit, grist, grist. Okay, is this is this me being like city slicker? Like I don't really know what Grif means. I don't either.

12:19 But I heard him say grist

12:22 like grist mill. Oh, you've heard grist mill before right? Like I like I like for grits. No, I'm kidding was like say I was like, I like grids and grits are like basically ground up corn. So it was like, Is it is it like that kind of that kind of size right there and smaller than that? Well, I mean, it's, it looks like sand. It could be like thick sand in your hand versus say almost a powder. Okay, and what you what you've done, there's a handful of different Mills, people use roller Mills, hammer Mills.

12:53 You can use the cage Mills, and they're all going to do a little bit different type of grind on your grind.

13:00 Is it kind of like so like when you do coffee like say like an espresso is like a real fine, you know, write it up coffee like real dense. Whereas like a pour over something is like more kind of bigger grained, our guests are sure type of texture. Well, and let's go back to what the whole goal of what we're trying to do here, we're trying to take this grain this will say a kernel of grain, and we're trying to make available as much of that starch as we can before we move into matching. So ideally, you would think the finer we can grind it, the more available the starches. So you take that and you go across all these different ways of milling the different types of Mills, and how they get to that grind. So some mills and throughput are going to create heat, well, you don't really want heat, because then you start to really denature the starches that you can't use in your fermentation to create alcohol. So there's different Mills will require different throughput and there are

14:00 certain ways to use each meal so that you get the right particle size without generating the heat. Well, I'm gonna go even before the grinding, like to the actual grain and the growing of the grain, okay, and like the soil and the regions they come from can witness a distilling podcast. Well, you said you want to go all the way back to the grain. So let's do it. Let's do so because you are distilling like, you know, and removing a lot of things from the original I guess grain itself doesn't matter like which region it comes from, or which type of soil or type of grain it you know, from corn to corn, not saying like corn or wheat or corn butter from different varieties of within that species. Yeah, absolutely. And even go step further and every year, you know, annually. If we have a lot of rain, you're going to get a different grain than you got the year before. And, you know, one test that many distillers will do is they'll look for aflatoxin. So if you have a really rainy season, you're going to get some molds out there and aflatoxin being a bye

15:00 product for mold can show up in the corn that's delivered to your distillery. So aflatoxin actually will fluoresce under a UV light. So if you take a thing of grain and you put a UV light over it, you see specks of

15:15 fluoresce grain aflatoxin, and then if there's any aflatoxin you don't know that you won't accept. Yeah. Do you know that run? You know what aflatoxin was? I didn't but it does sound like a mold or fungus.

15:28 I know. I know the Yeah, I know what fluorescence and like infrared and you know, and normal bacteria is kind of starting to yet inoculate themselves. It's like It's like a fish poster.

15:41 Alright, so at this point we are now we're now milling the the grains and stuff like that. We talked about the size of it, I guess. Let's let's kind of go on to the next portion of this. Okay, so we've got our we've got our grain the size we want. Now we're going to move into mashing, you're going to use no warm water to further break down that grind to make the

16:00 available. So in this process, you're going to either have a malted grain that's going to provide the enzyme, or you're going to add an exogenous enzyme that you've bought from a company who's isolated and concentrated this enzyme that you're going to add same time. Either way you do it, the goal is the same. You want to take these large, long chain carbohydrates and cut them down into small three carbon sugars, anything over a three carbon sugar the East can't do anything with. So these enzymes are going to cleave these long chain molecules into these smaller chain molecules during this process to prepare for, you know, the actual fermentation process. So these these big mash tubs that we usually see when we go through, I know we've seen them at heaven. Hell, we've seen that a few different places. I mean, is there is there a size that these things usually end up being like as a recommended sizes? I mean, can it be as small as like a child swimming pool versus something that's a huge tank. I mean, the the

17:00 The science will remain the same, no matter what size you use, the enzymes are going to work at the same temperatures. But the mash tub is typically size with the size of your process. So you're not going to have a big monster still on a small match stub. And inversely, you're not going to have a huge match to a real small steel. Now with these because they I guess, multiplied like, well, this the East isn't added yet, but right now yeah, we're not we're not there yet. Okay, don't jump back. Don't jump ahead. Because I got another question here. Which is, you know, you said about adding warm water. Now I know when I go to these things, and you touch them like they're pretty they're hot to the hand. Yeah. Like what's the I mean, what's the when you say warm water? It's not like bath warm, right? I mean, you're adding you're adding some I would say some scalding hot water to it or something like that, that or it's heating up like what right what's going on in there. So I say warm water because at this point, you you've likely recycled warm water off of something else. So you've you've taken cold water, probably off of

18:00 Through a condenser or something, taking that heat, you recycle that heat into another process. So in this let's just say it's into the cooker. So you're taking the warm water off something else into the cooker with these grains while adding steam, either your direct injection or your jacketed or maybe you have tubes in your in your cooker either way, you're adding heat somehow, and you're really on your way to almost a boil. And then you're going to add you're going to add these grains at different times for different reasons. And these different enzymes are actually going to work at different temperatures. So you've got to be careful because if you if your enzymes are in and you go above a certain temperature then those enzymes are gonna be nature they're not gonna work. So you're not going to get your conversion.

18:44 So if you have like a like a 500 gallon say whatever magic cooker Is there like a certain percentage of you know, the match to water that you are like, what is that percentage? I guess you you, you know, you run you can run a thin beer. What will

19:00 We call a thin beer or thick beer or anything in between the two. You don't want to go too thick because then your yeast isn't going to work. It's going to be too thick, there's too much pressure that yeast isn't going to isn't going to be active. If you go the other way, and you go real thin, the yeast is going to perform well. But now you've used all this energy up to that point to have a fermentation. But you could have actually had some more grain in there. So you're getting more bang for your buck, let's say. So the trick is to find out how thick Can I go maximize the alcohol from the fermentation without going so thick that it starts to suppress the yeast. Gotcha. So I guess another question with the just the mash tubs in general and the cookers, you know, I think the ones that I've seen usually they meet inside of it looks like a KitchenAid mixer. Yeah, right. They've been having they're sitting there spinning everything around and trying to keep that going like is that is that normal industry standard that that you have that or is there sometimes there's, you know, somebody with a broom and a broom handle they're trying to just like mix it around on a canoe pad.

20:00 Can you pass that's how we mix up our stuff.

20:04 You know, I've I've seen it done about every which way you can imagine, the canoe paddle is definitely a thing it does happen. On your larger scale distilleries, though, you're gonna have a nice agitator. The tubes on the inside or the coils are going to be for your steam, either coils or jacket. You can go either way. But yes, I mean, that's pretty much an industry standard. So how long does a typical process like this usually go when you are when you're trying to mash and you're trying to basically add water to the grain to start basically making them change their molecules. I don't really know if that's the right word I'm looking here for but try and change their properties a little bit.

20:41 It Again, it's going to depend on how much you're trying to do one time. So let's say let's let's operate off say 1000 gallon working capacity. You know, you're gonna you're gonna go and you're going to add your corn, your hot water, you're going to go to a boil, you're going to cook for, you know, 30 minutes

21:00 45 minutes, whatever, wherever you land in your profile, then you're gonna start to cool down, put some rye in there, and you're gonna cool a little more. And then that's where your enzymes start to work. You've got your alpha and your beta amylase, enzymes

21:13 that work at the 155 and the 135 degree ranges. So that's really where you're going to start to get a whole bunch of your conversion is right there where the enzymes are working. And then you can hold it there for another, you know, 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Again, this is going to be a little bit of trial and error, depending on your facility. But you're probably looking at two and a half, three and a half hours, probably for a full mashing, cooking session before you go into your fermenter. And how do you know it's like, ready? Well, you I mean, that's the trial and error part. I mean, you you start with a basic profile. And at the end, you see if there are things left on the table. You take measurements of a different of a bunch of different stuff through your fermentation and we can talk about this later, that actually will measure

22:00 You will actually give you ideas of your starch conversion, your, your the fermentation, how much sugar is left over which there shouldn't be any, right? So if there is you've had problems with yeast or some other variable, you measure all these things and you come up with the most efficient profile. What if you didn't have any instruments like back in the day? And you just said, yeah, exactly dip your finger in it and taste it like as Can you tell from that? I mean is there you can, if you were to take just a basic mash early on, right before you start your fermentation, you tasted it will be sweet. It will have sugar sweet properties to it. At the end of your fermentation when you taste it, it's going to be sour. So once you taste the difference in the two then you know on the front side what you're looking for. So another question that I had about looking at the grains that are going into you know, you had mentioned at first like you add in things a little bit later, like you add in the ride later and it's like so is there is it because corn

23:00 has different property. And that's why you added in first or do you add in my first like, what's the like which grains you choose first because of just the chemical nature of compound of it, the corn traditionally is is the hardest to get to based on its physical structure, the kernel itself, breaking all of that down and actually getting to the available storage is the most difficult in corn. So why you boil the crap out of the corn first, then everything else is at cooler temperatures. So you start you work your way to the top and then back down.

23:32 Right You don't want to eat really don't want to cook right too much. And then the malted barley, the barley is is traditionally just for the enzyme at the low percentage. Now as you increase that percentage, you can actually you can get some good flavoring from it. But malted barley traditionally is for the enzymes. What about any other like multi grains that you put in there like does that affects the time that you come in? Because I know if you melt something beforehand, it's probably gonna affect what you're doing. doing the math

24:00 process. Absolutely. And you can you can malt just about anything you want to. And you're going to get some enzymatic capability out of that multigrain. The enzymes are still going to work in the same temperature range. So even if you decide you want a malt corn, you can't go up and boil that corn. And just because it's multicore come back down, and the enzyme gonna work, you still denature the enzyme once you go above that temperature. So Alright, so I think we've kind of got this part now ready to go to have some yeast? All right, well, I think at this point, well, I mean, it's it usually leaves the cooker right? And you have some sort of vacuum or tubing or something that gets it to a fermentation tank. Correct. That's great. And so kind of talking about, I mean, because you've been in this process before, like what does it look like to build a system that is either like vacuum sucking, whatever it is the pumping moving all this stuff from yet not probably vacuum it's probably good to have a Dyson hooked up.

25:01 Got a water pump, very powerful. Yeah, but kind of talk about some of those, those things that maybe people don't see. So, you know, let's start with the most efficient way on a large scale, you're gonna have some nice stainless steel pipe, you're gonna have a really nice pump. And when it's time to go from the cooker to the fermenter, you're going to push a button on your switchboard and it's going to open a valve your pumps gonna kick on, and you're going to empty the cooker into the from how many gallons per minute we're talking my language is.

25:29 Obviously it depends, you know, there's a,

25:33 there's a piece of your process that this fits into, you know, you've you've cooked for so much time. Now it's gonna take you if you've got a pump that runs 25 gallons a minute, you've got 100 gallon tank, it's gonna go a lot quicker than if you have a 10,000 gallon tank and a 25 gallon a minute bomb, sure. So you size everything so that it takes the right amount of time to move the mash from the cooker to the fermenter and that will change whether you're running 100 gallons or

26:00 thousand gallons.

26:02 So again, that's engineering but you basically work it into your, your process. And then on the other side on the craft side, it can be, it can be anytime it can be pulled out and you know, drain into a bucket, take the bucket, dump it into the fermenter it can be hooked a hose to a smaller pump and run a hose across the floor to a fermenter. Any way that you can with some sort of sanitary good sanitary practice, get the cooked mash from the cooker over to the fermenter. I mean, whatever makes sense. That's I mean, you can do it 100 different ways. So from anybody that's never visited still, you know what these look like? Why, why couldn't you have a cooker and a fermenter do the same exact thing. You can, you can so if you wanted to do one fermentation a week, you could have a cooker, or even even distillation. Let's do the whole thing. You could actually have a pot still that you could cook your grains in

27:00 ferment in and then also distill from. The problem with that is that you've now occupied one space to do all three things. The idea around having typically one cooker and three to four fermenters is that you can set it up so you're doing something every day. No, you're not waiting on it to finish all three. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. I gotcha. I gotcha. So the other kind of question about this is like, when I know that we've had the opportunity to go to distillery and you know, you can put your hands on the mash and everything like that, but give folks that are listening kind of understanding of like, when something is actually going from the cooker, to the fermentation tank, like, you know, is it like, Is it just like water at this point? Or is it basically like water with a few crumbles like, kind of talk about the consistency of what this product is at this point. It's, again, if you're running the thicker, if you're trying to run a thicker beer, it's going to be just a little bit thinner than oatmeal. And if you're running a really thin beard,

28:00 It's it's gonna be cloudy water. And then it'll be it'll look like really muddy water, I guess consistency wise, and you're usually trying to like hit the middle ground with both these spectrums, right here is that kind of what most people are trying to hit? Yeah, it's trying to for your facility trying to maximize the yeast performance as well as the grain throughput, so that you're not sacrificing alcohol so you're not leaving alcohol on a table. Alright, you either want to be a Miller light or a stout. You want to be like

28:33 somewhere in the middle there. Yeah, sorry. So now we got to the point that we've got we've got a product going into the fermentation tank, right? That's right. And we've seen it usually there's there's a pipe that somebody moves and it's draining into there. Sometimes it actually drains sometimes like from bottom up sometimes like it can be can can can be pumped in there. See I said it right pumped in there. Yeah. So So at this point when it starts filling up talking to the process. Well, let's talk about yeast for just a second and then and then

29:00 Well in waiting.

29:02 So there there is a few different ways you can go about using yeast in your fermentation process. The most frequently done most frequently used and easiest to use is going to be a dried yeast. So you you order a dried yeast and known quantities from a manufacturer. They tell you how much you used to use for whatever product you're making. They'll even give you a few little flavor notes that that yeast is going to create. You take that in the recommended quantities and while this fermenter is filling up, you take the yeast and you throw it in. Done. That's it. How many different varieties of yeast are there for say like bourbon production? Oh my goodness, any thousands or Yeah, it could be could be. I mean, it's, again, we're talking about natural species. So you can have one and it can mutate while we're sitting here having this conversation. Not really that quickly, but

29:58 pretty close throw right?

30:00 match. Yeah, it'll take right away. There are there are a lot out there. But oddly enough, there are fewer than you would expect available for folks like you and me who were if we were to buy from somebody, that's why you got some guys in Danville that specialize Exactly. Farm solutions. Yeah. So there's, there's another question, this one came from one of the Patreon communities because we knew going into this that it would be tough to ask a lot of hard questions. So we kind of reached out to them. And so Richard hundred asked, you know, during the mash rest, is there a temperature there that affects the final profile that actually goes into potentially the final product? Or is like basically do you wait for that? That master like come to almost like a like a lukewarm state before you start actually pushing it or pumping it into a fermenter? So it's a good question. Let's, let's assume for a minute that when we talk about him, I'm not exactly sure the context in which he's referring to a match.

31:00 But in my experience, I have done what we'll call a mash wrist in certain types of raw fermentations. And the idea behind that is during that rest period, it actually gives the enzymes time to continue to break down starches. And that's really what that that resin or starches or in rare case, proteins.

31:23 That's really what that rest is allowing time for. And I'm assuming that's what he was asking. And if not, I'm happy to come back and revisit what yeah,

31:33 it's close enough. Yeah. All right. So we're in the fermentation tanks you've added to the yeast at this point, we've got, you know, this is where the magic happens, right? You get the bubble start in the form, you got that crust layer building on top. Now, what is what is the chemical breakdown that's actually happening that we're watching at this point. Basically, what you're looking at is starch molecules being converted into alcohol and co2 on the very

32:00 base level that's that's what's going on. So the alcohol is created the co2 bubbles off. And that's what you see. That's why it looks like it's boiling even though it's not. And then I know that we've been to some distilleries and when you're watching the boil it sometimes there's like, it almost looks like rent almost like like there's blood in the water. Like is that just like fats and oils from corn? Yeah, it's oils from corn. Yeah. And it's like hypnotic, always like that. I'm like, oh, man, something

32:25 that's like, just take your breath away. I don't know and know what to like, if you put your head down. It's like, like, you almost lose your breath sometimes. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend doing that. Because that can be pretty dangerous, especially for mentors that are closed. That's what's wrong. Me. You will find open that door and you get a face full of co2. It can knock you out. Yeah. So kind of talk about the the idea of why somebody would do a closed fermentation versus an open fermentation. And why you see some that have, yeah, you see some that have almost like the submarine doors on them like submarine windows. And then you see some that just have huge vent hoods on top of them do so.

33:00 This is this is the age old argument that, you know will never be solved about why we do open top fermentation versus a closed top fermentation. And, you know, we can get into Cypress and stainless, you know sometime too as well. But when you look at an open top fermentation the idea that people some people have is that it's a sanitation issue. So a lot of people will use a close top fermenter for that reason. So I'll back up and say that if you condition your yeast properly, and this is not necessarily the box yeast but if you condition yeast properly, prior to adding it to your condition, like push ups or

33:42 sprints

33:44 Yes, basically basically it's a yeast training program. fermentation.

33:53 And as funny as that is, it's really what you're doing is you're you're putting the yeast in in the environment, similar to

34:00 What it's going to see in the fermentation. So yeah, it's basically like training for marathons what I like to say, CrossFit for you. Exactly, yeah. So how he said, You know, there's like thousands and thousands, and they're living things like how do you prevent from those thousands and thousands of variables from taking over that particular? Is it like, you have so much of that particular yeast that it's dominant and can outcompete other yeast strains, or how does one bad apple not get in there and start taking over. So up until you start your fermentation, everything is pretty much we'll say, sanitized, you know, you basically boil the grain, everything is clean up until it goes into the fermenter. So at that point, you have basically allowed the environment to interact with your clean mash. So that's when potential bacteria can send in potential molds, that stuff that's in the air that you don't see but that we all know is there. That's when it starts to interact with your mash. Now if you have a strong yeast strain, that is beneficial

35:00 properly, it's going to outcompete any of those naturally occurring micro organisms in the fermentation so that you don't have to worry about something else taking over. Also, as soon as that yeast starts working, if you can time that properly to where you add your yeast as your fermenters, filling up, that yeast is going to start to create co2 and create an anaerobic environment, which is an environment that's lacking oxygen, which means those bacteria and mold spores are not going to grow. Gotcha, that makes sense. Yeah. And so this is where the magic is happening. So this is also you know, when we when we go when you visit these things, and you see these, these fermentation tanks, we'll get into the I think we'll get into steel versus Cypress in a minute. But one question that I've always had is like, sometimes they're like, Oh, we do three or four days. Some people are like, oh, we're six, seven day. what's what's the determining factor there to say like, Oh, it's gonna take this many days or like, Oh, we let it go for 10 like, does that really matter at the end of the day? So yes or no

36:00 A lot of it again is going to be strain. A lot of it's going to be how thick a beer you run how much starch is actually in that how much is available on that fermentation for conversion. If you run a thinner beer, and so you don't temperature control your fermentation, and you go from say a 70 ish setpoint and it skyrockets into the 90s it that yeast is going to roll through every available amount of starch in that fermentation very quickly. So you're, you're gonna get

36:30 a large majority of your alcohol in that first 12 to 24 hours. And then depending on how well your your your enzymes work, you get your secondary fermentation and that's what the additional days are for. If you run a thicker beer, and there's physically more starch in there that's available to convert and you want to control your temperatures in your fermentations through chilled water, no more coils in the fermenter

37:00 Then you can actually take longer to convert all of those starches. And basically what that does is allow you to make up for say weekends or holidays or things like that you control the temperature was drags it out longer and there you run a thicker beer so there's more starch in there. So the process just just physically takes longer. It's not like a barbecue and low and slow isn't necessarily

37:26 not necessarily in this case. So like do different. So like rah rah whiskey versus a bourbon or, you know, American malt or whatever, do they you know, each grain have different fermentation days, I guess required for them.

37:41 Again, it goes back to starch content. Yeah, I mean, the the fermentation times are really going to be determined by you know, thickness or your beer, the type of yeast strain you're using and whether or not you want to control the temperatures are good fermentation. People always talk about like, rather like Oh, it's such a pain. Yes, because it gums up everything's like

38:00 So is it like a thicker beer? Or is it So traditionally rye is gonna have a whole lot of protein By comparison, it has a lot more protein than you're going to see in any of these other grains. And for that reason, you get that the foam I mean, people talk about gumming stuff up and foam and that sports protein. So if you if you eliminate that protein, then you can eliminate the problems with rapper mutations. So when you do fry, are you like, Alright, I get my a, my a list, yeast over there can do the most burpees push ups to take this on, because it's going to be a bit.

38:39 There are yeast strains that are going to perform better in awry than others, okay? But also you still got to take care of that protein. And that's really what's going on is that protein, they, if you if you've ever seen a rat fermentation go awry. See what I did there.

39:00 It will almost balloons out the top in a lot of cases. And what that does that proteins actually holding all that co2 in there. So now you're starting to suppress the the performance of the yeast. And if you do that, it's just going to slowly gradually slow your fermentation till it stops. And when you stopped prematurely, you've left all that converted starch on the type. So now instead of getting,

39:25 say, a seven or 8%, beer 9% beer, you're getting a, you know, one, two to 3% beer, because your fermentation didn't go all the way to completion. So go get that paddle.

39:36 Learn enough or do you have to scrap it? Well, rule of thumb is you never scrap it, you know, you got to figure out a way to make it work. You know, one of the things that that Joe always refers to is, you know, when we first met he asked me what do you do when it goes wrong? And just, I just roll off the cuff. It never goes wrong and

40:00 You know, he probably loved it. And he did. And he still tells that story. And at the time, I didn't really understand why I said what I said, but, but what what I'm saying when I say that is that you have to be ready for these things, you have to understand what's going on, so that when your raw fermentation goes awry, you have something some protocol in place to say, okay, you know, we're sitting here looking, the proteins are thicker, in this particular fermentation than usual, we need to make a corrective action, and just knowing what to do to combat each of those problems that comes along, then it you know, it's expected, you know, it's not when something if something goes wrong is when something goes wrong, right. And if you operate with that mindset, then you're just prepared. Yeah, absolutely. And so we're still in the fermentation process here. And I think we skip this step, because there's one thing that we'll always talk about, and that's the sweet versus sour mash, right. I mean, this is where this all happens in this stage to correct That's right. So kind of give

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Whiskey Quickie: E.H. Taylor Single Barrel

Tue, 21 Jul 2020 10:30:48 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review an E.H. Taylor Single Barrel selected by the Dallas Bourbon Club. This non-age stated bourbon is 100 proof and around a $65 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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DISCLAIMER: This whiskey in this review was purchased by Bourbon Pursuit for reviewing. We were not compensated by the spirit producer for this review. This is our honest opinion based on what we tasted. Please drink responsibly.

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262 - Peggy Noe Stevens at the Legends Series

Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:30:27 GMT

For anyone that doesn’t know Peggy from listening to our past episodes, you will get to hear from the first ever woman Master Taster. She has been a remarkable inspiration for anyone in the bourbon industry and her crowning achievement was being inducted into the 2019 Bourbon Hall of Fame. This podcast was recorded at the Kentucky Derby Museum’s Legends Series so make sure you are following their social media handles @derbymuseum to catch the next season. Learn more about Peggy by listening to episodes 204 and 198, which is her session from the 2018 Kentucky Bourbon Affair called “The Stave is the Rave”.

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Show Notes:

DISCUS Petition: https://p2a.co/yrfbbV7
Podcast Awards Voting: https://www.podcastawards.com/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Wild Turkey and small barrels.
Tell us about being a Noe.
What were you like when you were young?
What was your dad like?
Tell us about your time at the University of Kentucky.
What were you drinking back then?
Why did you chose these whiskies to taste?
What was your first job out of college?
How long were you in the hotel business?
When did you work at Brown-Forman?
What was the coolest event you coordinated?
What was the next step?
Tell us a good Lincoln story.
What challenges have you faced?
Do you feel like you always have to prove yourself?
Talk about what you've done for women in bourbon.
Tell us about Peerless.
How many distilleries have you worked on?
Tell us about Bakers.
Bourbon Women: https://bourbonwomen.org/

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Whiskey Quickie: Tincup Rye Whiskey

Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:30:49 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Tincup Rye Whiskey. This 3 year rye whiskey is 90 proof and $30 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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261 - Sazerac Purchases Early Times, Visiting the Trail, and Fill Levels on Bourbon Community Roundtable #46

Thu, 09 Jul 2020 10:30:19 GMT

Does the purchase of Early Times by Sazerac signal trouble in the water for Brown-Forman? We look at the motivation behind this and if tariffs could have a future impact as well. If you’re thinking about visiting distilleries and experiencing Kentucky, is now the time to do it or wait until things settle down? And lastly, we ask ourselves what do we do with a bottle that only has 2 or 3 pours left? Finish it or save it?

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Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about People Magazine.
Sazerac purchased Early Times. What will happen to a recent bourbon entrant that has become a beloved bottom shelfer?
Distilleries are slowly starting to open back up. Would you go ahead and take your KY vacation now or wait?
Do you look at bottle fill levels and feel the need to finish them off or keep them?
Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com, and Brian from sippncorn.com for joining.

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Whiskey Quickie: Chicken Cock Rye Whiskey

Tue, 07 Jul 2020 10:30:26 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Chicken Cock Rye Whiskey. This rye is aged at least 2 years, is 90 proof, and $70 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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260 - Rare Bottles and High Bids with Joe Hyman of Skinner Auctioneers

Thu, 02 Jul 2020 10:30:17 GMT

Do you have a really old bottle of whiskey? What about a unicorn that’s coveted by every bourbon enthusiast out there? We’re joined by Joe Hyman of Skinner Auctioneers to talk about what it’s like to buy and sell high-end bottles at a legit auction. We talk about everything from the bottles they accept, how they process auctions, and how they spot fakes. Every year a whiskey breaks the ceiling for sales, who knows what it will be this year. Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

BevAlc Insights: https://bevalcinsights.com/
Dating Old American Whiskey Bottles: https://bourbonveach.com/2020/06/29/dating-old-american-whiskey-bottles/
Whiskey Advocate Article: https://www.whiskyadvocate.com/black-market-bourbon-feature/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bottled-In-Bond.
How did you get into spirits and auctions?
Did 50 year old scotch ruin you?
How do you get these rare bottles?
Talk about the legalities of selling and shipping alcohol for an auction house.
How do you transport or ship the bottles?
What do you define as a rare bottle?
How often do you get something in and it's ruined somehow?
How do people react when they bring you a bottle that they think is amazing, but you can't sell it?
How do you spot fakes?
What would happen if you auctioned a counterfeit bottle?
Do you research on the secondary market for pricing? How do you gauge value?
What do you attribute fluctuations in the market to?
Any advice for people wanting to participate in an auction?
Do you still get a thrill when finding rare bottles?
Are there things you won't sell?
What's the record sale?
What's your commission rate?
Who is cooler, Scotch or American whiskey buyers?

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Whiskey Quickie: Corsair Triple Smoke Whiskey

Tue, 30 Jun 2020 10:30:06 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Corsair Triple Smoke Whiskey. This single malt whiskey is aged for 7 months, 80 proof, and $45 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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259 - Bourbon Trail Tips with Eric Carrico

Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:30:19 GMT

Wouldn’t it be nice if someone was able to give you the best tips for planning out your bourbon trail experience? Look no further. In this podcast we cover the distilleries, experiences, and some restaurants you can’t miss. It’s impossible to get to every distillery in a short amount of time, but this episode will give you the scoop on how to navigate the areas of Kentucky to make the most of it.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about a bourbon that is $22.99.
How did you get involved with AirBNBs?
What is the difference between AirBNBs and hotels?
What's a good number of days to spend on the bourbon trail?
When is a good day to take a tour?
How do you recommend distilleries to different groups?
Tell us about the different pods.
Where does Maker's fit in?
What distillery would you hide out in during a zombie apocalypse?
What is the bourbon chase?
What are you thoughts on the bourbon bubble?
Ashford Key Properties: https://www.facebook.com/ashfordkey/

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Whiskey Quickie: Frey Ranch Bourbon

Tue, 23 Jun 2020 10:30:11 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Frey Ranch Bourbon. This 4 year old bourbon is 90 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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258 - Freddie Johnson at the Legends Series

Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:30:35 GMT

Freddie Johnson is bourbon. You are going to hear that, among many other praises for one of the most well respected people in the industry. He’s a never short on stories and makes any experience together memorable. Of course, Freddie talks about tours and his impact at Buffalo Trace, but then answers questions about bottle flipping and the secondary market. It's great insight into Sazerac's approach on this issue. Make sure you attend the Kentucky Derby Museum's Legends Series next season.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the latest deal between Brown-Forman and Sazerac.
Discussion about white dog.
Tell us about giving tours 12 years ago.
Talk about the promise to your father.
How do you customize the tours?
What do the people of Buffalo Trace mean to you?
Do you have to buy your own bottles?
What is your favorite part of a tour?
How do you feel about seeing the high aftermarket prices for Buffalo Trace products?
Do you ever get challenged about your products on the tours?
What do you think about flipping bottles?
What was the most special drink you've shared?

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Whiskey Quickie: New Riff Backsetter Rye & Bourbon

Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:30:05 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review New Riff Backsetter Rye & Bourbon. Both are 4 years old, 100 proof, and $50 MSRP each. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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257 - The Best 10 Year Age Stated Bourbon, Knob Creek Picks, and Father’s Day Ideas on Bourbon Community Roundtable #45

Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:30:17 GMT

Today’s roundtable is a potpourri of bourbon questions. We talk about our favorite 10 year age stated bourbons that are readily available. We look into the high aged Knob Creek releases, including the 15 and 12 year, and what this could mean for the private barrel selection program. Then, we talk about some Father’s Day gift ideas that we would like to have. Lastly, we take a moment to look back in time and ask ourselves what we would have done differently if we got into bourbon earlier. This episode is dedicated to raising funds for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. Bourbon Pursuit has pledged $1000 to help bring awareness and equality.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund: https://www.naacpldf.org/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about aliens.
What does your spouse think of your bourbon habit?
What's the best age stated 10 year old bourbon?
15 year Knob Creek is being priced at $100+. What happened to the 15 year picks for $45?
Father's Day is coming up. If you are buying for the bourbon hobbyist, what's the best possible gift to get? What would *you* want?
We all got into this bourbon hobby at different times and learned a lot along the way. If you could go back to the beginning when you got into bourbon, what would you do differently? Aside from buying up every rare bottle on the store shelves.

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Whiskey Quickie: Maker's Mark 101 Proof

Tue, 09 Jun 2020 10:30:16 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Maker's Mark 101 Proof. This non-age stated bourbon is 101 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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256 - Inside the World of Woodinville Whiskey Co. with Brett Carlile

Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:30:18 GMT

For today's episode, we traveled to Woodinville, Washington and sat down with Brett Carlile, Co-Founder, Distiller, and Lead Hose Dragger of Woodinville Whiskey Co. Brett gives an inside look at how him and his best friend, Orlin Sorensen, built one on of the most explosive craft brands on the market. It starts with an idea, enlisting late great Dave Pickerell to provide guidance, and good luck. Their whiskey began turning heads and led to an acquisition by Moet Hennessy. Get insights into their production process and their aging facility, which is a few hours away from the distillery and has a Kentucky-like climate.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

- Du Nord Benefit Discussion Panel: https://youtu.be/-fuH8aSQVhw
- Du Nord Fundraiser: https://www.gofundme.com/f/minnesota-poc-business-support?utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer&utm_campaign=p_lico+share-sheet
- Distilling Research Grants: https://distillingresearch.org/research/
- Barrell Craft Spirits Private Release Whiskey: https://www.barrellbourbon.com/privatereleasewhiskey
- This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about how the world needs a drink.
- How did you get into whiskey?
- How did you decide to start the distillery?
- Where did you learn to produce whiskey?
- Tell us about working with Dave Pickerell.
- What was your first distillate like?
- Why Woodinville?
- Where did you get your mash bill?
- Was it a success out of the gate or did you run into issues?
- How long did it take to be successful in Washington?
- What is the whiskey scene like in Washington?
- How long did it take to bottle your product?
- When did you realize you had good juice?
- Tell us about the whiskey.
- Why 90 proof?
- Talk about your barrels.
- Where are your warehouses located?
- Tell us about your rye whiskey.
- Talk about getting purchased by Moet Hennessy.
- What has the partnership meant to you all?
- What markets are you expanding to?
- What are your plans for distillery expansion?
- What are you trying to accomplish with the port finish product?
- How much of the product is lost to evaporation?
- How do you store the barrels?
- What do you admire about your partner?
- Any plans to make an older product?

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Whiskey Quickie: Four Gate Batch 6

Tue, 02 Jun 2020 10:30:01 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Four Gate Whiskey Company Batch 6 The Kelvin Collaboration II. This non-age stated bourbon is 126.4 proof and $200 MSRP. Let us know what you think in the comments. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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255 - How We Built Pursuit Series

Thu, 28 May 2020 10:30:05 GMT

What does it take to build a bourbon brand from the ground up? In this podcast, you get to hear our story of building Pursuit Spirits. We discuss how we source barrels, design packaging, and navigate the law. Fred interviews Ryan and Kenny on motivation, risks, and how to secure your future with contract distillation.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Rum.
How did you all meet?
How did you all decide to start the podcast?
Talk about starting your own brand.
How did you finance the project?
Who came up with the idea to call the releases episodes?
After creating this brand, do you have more appreciation for distillers being less transparent?
What was the most annoying thing about starting the brand?
Do you ever get nervous that your model might come crashing down?
How have you been able to meet the demand of your audience?
Has launching the brand helped you understand the distillers more?
How much time went into the packaging?
Talk about the cork.
Why is there so much variance in TN barrels?
How have you reacted to negative criticism?
What distilleries have you partnered with?
Do all of the episodes sell out?
Any thoughts about doing a batching process?
Would you consider outside investment?
Any plans for contracting distilling?
How do you not oversaturate the promotion of Pursuit Series?
Favorite episode?
What distillery would you want to partner with if you could?
If you had to pick between Bourbon Pursuit and Pursuit Series, which would you pick?
If you could buy all the bourbon you wanted from OZ Tyler, would you?
Where would you want to spend marketing dollars?

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0:00 When we can put it into a single bear offering a cash ranked like, this is what we've tried. Like, I guarantee you, you're gonna love this because we're not going to put it sound like a men's wearhouse commercial. But if it did I love the way you look.

0:25 This is Episode 255 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny, and I hope you've had an enjoyable week in this podcast finds you well. So let's get on to some bourbon news. We missed the deadline for putting this in the podcast last week. So unless you've been staying away from social media, then you probably already know about the new Weller single barrel orange label that will be coming to market soon. The new Weller will be bottled at 97 proof which is a middle point between the traditional Green Label special reserve at 90 and the Red Label antique at 107 will also have a suggested retail price of $50

1:00 You can also check out Fred Minix YouTube channel where he was the first person to review it. So make sure you go subscribe and check that out. There's also a new whiskey coming to market. It's a Tennessee whiskey, and it combines golf, Marion eaves and the Mannings. It's sweetens Cove. The investors behind it have some major name power, including the likes, of course, Peyton Manning, tennis legend Andy Roddick, sports caster gymnasts, singer songwriter drew Holcomb, among others. The story behind sweetens Cove is that it started somewhat off with like an off the grid, nine hole golf course at the end of a gravel road in Tennessee. It was described by some because of its breathtaking views as doffs Field of Dreams. So a group of friends, including some of the previously ones mentioned, bought sweetens Cove back in 2019. With no clubhouse, no plumbing, or really anything else to offer. It has a tradition of a celebratory shot of whiskey for first timers on the first tee. This will be a 13 year old Tennessee bourbon with multiple batches that have been blended by Marion Eve's will continue

2:00 Around 14,000 bottles and have an MSRP of around $200.

2:05 In distillery news, the governor of Kentucky has said that distilleries can reopen for visitors starting on June 8. But please make sure that you put in your phone calls to any distilleries that you plan on visiting because it's up to their discretion on how they're going to reopen. So please make sure that you do that before making any plans to go to visit any.

2:26 Now for today's podcast, many folks have asked us before, what does it take to actually start a bourbon brand. And today, you get to hear our story. We switch things up a little bit. And Fred interviews us on the brand, how we got started our process for selecting barrels for pursuit series and what our future plans entail. We can't say thank you enough to everyone out there who has purchased that bottle of pursuit series and been a steward of the brand because of you are able to help continue and grow this into something even more amazing down the line. We've even got more plans to release something awesome in the fourth quarter of this year. So

3:00 Tune for more details. We've got three barrels that are available today on seal box comm along with less than 65 bottles remaining across specs in the Dallas and Texas and Fort Worth and Austin area so make sure you can go and get all the details on pursuit spirits.com because we have one barrel that is in the Texas market. And if you got a friend or a relative that found bourbon is something that they enjoy while at guarantee, make sure you tell them about the podcast help spread the good word of bourbon and Joe from barrel bourbon wants you to know that it's gotten a whole lot easier to get their unique cash drinks whiskies from around the world, including their rums, malt, and many others. Just visit barrel bourbon calm and click the Buy Now button today. You can get bourbon to your door. Alright, enjoy today's episode. Here's Fred minich with above the char

3:54 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the chart. Whoo. It's becoming a little warmer. It's coming soon.

4:00 summertime. I'm seeing the blooms the flowers. Oh, the sun's out more and maybe you can get a little bit of tan I'm grilling every night. It's just Oh, it's so exciting. I can't wait to hang out. Oh wait, yeah, there's that whole damn pandemic thing, man, but you know what the other thing that summertime does for me, rum cocktails. Rum, cocktails rum punches. I'm constantly experimenting with different rums Listen, I know bourbon bourbon, bourbon bourbon. We talk about bourbon all the time is bourbon pursuit. But ROM is my you know it's my it's my second love all the spirits I love rum so much and I it is so much with fruits. So listen, everybody I'm just telling you right now, get on the rum kick this summer and let's start making some rum punches together. Go get go get go to the liquor store or get online at drizzly or go wherever it is you shop right now in the middle of this pandemic, and look for the different rooms. Okay, here

5:00 a shopping list or these are the rums that I'm telling you right now will make you excited as a bourbon fan. Total wine has a brand that's called a doorless. d'Orleans is made only for, for total wine in the United States. It's made by Foursquare, which in my opinion is the best distillery in all of ROM it's in Barbados. And that ROM d'Orleans whether it's the 12 year old or it's the basic one, it is beautiful. Start out making cocktails with that or drink it neat. Go over to Jamaica, get a little Appleton get a little bit that Jamaican funk on up in there and use that for punches. So get you some orange juice, get some limes and lemons and just squeeze them all in together and throw in some, some sugar and maybe like a look sardo stir that thing up and you got yourself punch, head on over to America and get a little bit of privateer out of Boston, the Boston area. That privateer is absolutely fantastic. Now the three thing that all three of these

6:00 rums have in common. They don't add sugar. That's right. A lot of rums actually add sugar after they have

6:08 dumped in so they'll add up to like 50 milligrams per liter in sugar. Now a lot of people like that a lot of people like that, but hey, I'm a straight bourbon guy. I love my bourbon neat. I love it with just a piece of ice sometimes. And if you are like me, then you probably gonna want something that isn't adulterated with a sweetness, and so privateer Appleton and Foursquare or door Lee's made by Foursquare, take a look at those three things and get back to me at Fred MiniK on whichever social media platform you like. And for a moment, let's talk some rum because it's summertime. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook And oh, by the way, I got a YouTube channel. Go check it out. We have a membership area where there's a lot of exclusive content

7:00 Until next week, cheers.

7:06 Welcome back to bourbon pursuit. This is going to be a fun episode in which we discuss the pursuit series something that I am not a part of. But Kenny and Ryan of bourbon pursuit are so I get to turn the tables on them a little bit and ask them some questions about how they got where they are. And I kind of want to start this off, gentlemen. Oh, no, I'm sweating.

7:28 Well, given given what you told us told me off air you should be. Okay. Yeah. Well, we'll hit me up on on social media. I'll tell you what, read what this is really about later, feed you all the dirty secrets and that's

7:43 got another nod. So Alex at the party stories this this episode is about. This is about the pursuit series in the building of it. But of course, you cannot talk about the whiskey that you all own together without talking about this podcast. So I want to go over

8:00 From the very beginning, how did you to actually meet your need? Yeah, you know, it's like we're awkward school, Utah.

8:11 So, I had been listening to podcasts, with my current business, my real paying business. I'd listen to podcasts and in my truck a lot and at the time, I was going to start a lawn care business. Well, I've quickly learned that there's not going to be many listeners or follow on your podcast. I don't think we'd have a Patreon community. Yeah, donate. I'll send you some fertilizer or something. I don't know. But uh, anywho I was really into bourbon. And my brother in law kind of said, Why don't you do a podcast about bourbon? And because you know, so many people you're from Bardstown, as always say, and so

8:47 I was like, Yeah, that'd be cool. But I didn't know how to execute it. Kenny and I had become friends. How did you guys become friends? What where was that moment of where you all became friends because we're in target and we were walking

9:00 past the pop tart aisle we locked eyes and I don't remember that now that now our y's are mutual Kenny. Is that how you wanted the meeting to go? Or I mean, you know, you ever you ever look back and you think like, I wish I could do something over? You know, that might be one of those times but yeah, exactly. Yeah, so our wives were mutual friends and I had a derby party every year. And Kenny would come and bring his mid juillet mix and bring several different bottles. And so we kind of started and he actually liked electronic dance music, and I did too. And so we kind of had it similar, similar interest. And so I knew what he did it and his job was a lot of tech and presentations public speaking, which I had no experience in. Still, to this day, I kind of dread to getting in front of microphone people. But uh, so I needed somebody to call Kenny or I emailed him and said, Hey, what do you think about this? And he's like, Yeah, let's do it. But he was like, we gotta need to come come from this angle. And so we met in my basement for the first time.

10:00 One and we had a laptop and a USB microphone and we just kind of sat around and talked about bourbon and whatnot. And while we were doing this and then I think we recorded it and then we listened to her like we got delete that That's terrible. This was bad. And then for really, and then I still have that recording. I don't know. Gosh, I might actually on my old I would love to my old mic. Actually I put that out for like a bond like GarageBand I need to look that up. That's a good that would be cool to me on fun episode to do. Yeah, it's just one of those things where, you know, when you start anything, you fumble your way through it. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've both gotten much better at the podcast execution, interviewing style, everything throughout the years. It's just been a repetition and you just, you know, you start working at something and you you get better at it as the years go along. Yeah, it's it's kind of a testament to like the theory that like, you know, the the

11:00 10,000 hour rule or something like that, if you want to do something like just because you suck at it first, like, you can become good, just got to do it. So don't let like, perfection stop you from doing something because we've had a lot of imperfections along the way. And it's taken us a long journey to get here, but it's been a cool journey and how when, when did it start getting serious for you in the podcasting space? I would say it, I mean, I'll kind of I'll kind of take that one a little bit, you know, for us it was it was one of those things where, you know, Ryan had he's a very good idea person, he's very driven by it and he's, he's very creative when it comes to it. And then it comes to the execution stage and making sure that it stays consistent and it stays on schedule and it stays like that. And so there was there was kind of like a turning within the responsibilities where you know, he really wanted to run with this and go with it and I said, Sure, like all you know, I've got I've got my own work stuff going on like I'm okay like all kind of just be the the extra voice of reason if you need it and he was taking care of all the editing and stuff like that.

12:00 And then, you know, it got to the point where, you know, I kind of took over a little bit the editing, making sure that we had, you know, the right kind of sound quality and all this other kind of stuff over the years. And there was a point as well where, you know, during that process, you know, when I was picking up and doing a lot of this and putting in tons and tons of hours a week into it. I mean, most people don't understand that, what goes into a one hour podcast, there's at least 20 to 40, even sometimes 60 hours of work that just goes into that one hour. Correct. And so when you when you get to that point, you're spending that much time plus you've got your other 40 hours a week day job, you get burnout pretty quickly. And so it got to the point where we I just said, you know, like we're gonna let it lapse a little bit and we let it lapse, and then all of a sudden, you had people on Twitter saying like, Hey, guys, when's the new episode gonna come out? Yeah, I'm like, oh, people listen, yeah, what year was that? I mean, this was probably 2016 timeframe, had been somewhere during that timeframe. And then there was a

13:00 So I think it was like December of like 2016 as well, actually, it's probably 2015 timeframe when that tweets happened. And then it was 2016 when it was a lot of the work that was really going into it. And I was feeling the burnout. I mean, I was really feeling the burnout from it. And I just said, He's like, I don't really know if their ROI is here. Like, I'll have to go ahead and reevaluate, like, what is this really gonna be worth the time? You know, and I put that tweet out there, there was a lot of good positive responses, Mark Gillespie from whiskey cast saying, like, hey, like, I know, a lot of stuff goes into it. Like he said, Keep at it and stuff like that, too. So even even like competitors in the space were like saying, you know, like, the water a lot of just good, you know, patting on the back and stuff like that. And then there was somebody else that said, Hey, like, why don't you all start a Patreon I'd be happy to support you. And I was like, What the hell's Patreon? And so you go in, you start reading about it, and you're like, hell let's, let's run with it. And then from there, it's just been that's been kind of the the growth and medium that we've needed to help support and sustain this place.

14:00 podcast because it's it's one of those things that you know, this is this is a new medium, it's hard to find advertisers in this new medium. Because there's a lot of companies that I mean, mindset it before it's like it's whiskey, it's distillation, you haven't changed anything in 200 years, probably not gonna change a whole lot of things. And it comes to the marketing aspect of it as well. Right? So it's one of those things that we're waiting for them to kind of catch up with it. So it's, you know, we go and we try to sell we try to talk these people but you know, a lot of times that they'd rather buy a billboard or a bus stop, right, whatever it for you magazine ads, yes. And they love magazine ads still, that's just great. But I mean, like I said, this is just one of those things that we saw Patreon as really our catalyst to really support and grow the show. And that's really what it's been now for the past few years. And it's awesome, too, because we, I mean, we have a great partner with barrel but they've been great and, you know, let us be us but we don't have to like answer, you know, we can kind of be us. We're not like on anyone's agenda or anything. So we could just be true to ourselves and we do what the community wants. We really rely on them to kind of give us ideas and

15:00 What the what interests them and feedback from them. It's been great having that support and you know, ideas bouncing off of them and stuff. So it's, and I remember when you all reached out to me for an interview,

15:14 there were a couple different times you all reach out to me, I helped you get into the legend series. And then when it when you all reached out to me to be an interview about about bourbon. I remember, at the time, there were so many podcasts coming on and you know, there are people trying to do stuff. And you guys kind of had a different feel, you know, and it was just, it was like, he was like, I could be friends with these guys. You know, he, even though I think that was, that's the one of the interviews was where the marzipan thing came from. It's like, yeah, you were like what it was.

15:51 I'd never heard of that. I'm sorry. We never had marzipan and gardening. But it was it was very clear early on that there was some spark there and that you guys were

16:00 trying to do something in this space in a in a medium that I think was

16:06 you know, filled with people who really couldn't, you know, contribute to to the community in some way and I you guys came out and you did it and and the one thing that you know obviously I came on last year I guess a year and a half ago now, you know I came on because I respected what you guys built in and then when you all came out with with your own bourbon that that threw me off so I was like I wasn't expecting that as like that's the kind of move that you don't see media people make. Yeah, I remember off to the result too because I remember we were kind of in like negotiations of

16:46 our partnership or whatnot and the ironing out the details and we were at like an old forest or event I think it was like the President's choice or whatever. But we had just kind of like confirmed that we were going to start this brand and I was like what is friggin and think of this because these are

17:00 reviewer you know, is this gonna throw the deal off? we you know, we set you aside and you're like, we need to talk about this and you went about the bourbon but about our deal and then we told you we're like we're starting our own bourbon brand. You know, you don't we don't want to be involved. We know it will let you to be

17:15 out in the sense that we don't want you involved but we don't want to, you know, implicated Okay, anything for your reviews and whatnot. So, and you're like, Yeah, I don't care if it's totally fine. I was like, Whoa, monkey off my back. Yeah, that was gonna be a total deal breaker. But anyways, well, it's there have been some, some history there of like,

17:36 whiskey, whiskey media. You know, starting a brand there. Whiskey magazine actually had had its own label for a bit in Scotland. So it's not unprecedented. It's just not popular. You know, people tend to to frown upon it. Did you all have any concerns that you know, you would, you would piss off like, you know, the distiller.

18:00 That now you're competing with them. Jimmy concerns like that when you guys were thinking about this? No, not really. I mean, when we, when we look at what we're trying to build, and what we're trying to do, it's we're boutique, I mean, we are not going to be kind of kind of person that we're not going to have to to $20 million to dump into a distillery and build one. We're not gonna be one of those people that are trying I mean, it'd be amazing to get bought out by somebody that's not on the radar, it's probably never gonna happen. Because we're not at we're not that kind of level, right? We're not at a level where we're sourcing hundreds and hundreds of barrels and then creating these crazy single barrel programs and then aging stuff and then trying to release to mass market. Like that's really not what we're trying to do. Yeah. And not only that is you know, we took this as an opportunity to kind of divert it in a in two different ways. So first and foremost, yes, we sourced like, that was the kind of the way that it was all built off of. But when we started this, even to how it all even began was the idea that, you know, we talked about a brand on the podcast, and then a few weeks later, I get this phone call from a guy

19:00 He's like, Hey, I helped build that brand. Would you be interested in doing your own? Like, never, never even crossed our mind, right? The time we were doing, we just kind of start doing single barrels for the Patreon community. We're done. And then they were selling out really fast. And so I was just thrilled doing like single barrels for from other distilleries. And I was totally content with that, you know, at the time. And so like, yeah, our broker called us and he got the idea. And Kenny called me and he was like, Are you interested? And I was like, not really.

19:32 You know, and then he's like, Okay, and then like, two weeks later passed, and he's like, well, I'm going to meet that guy that has let you know this. And I was like, Alright, I guess I'll go you know, it's like, Monday night, how we met it like hell or high water and I never been there like, Oh, go check it out. Go get a cocktail. Yeah. And so we we sat with them, and they were, to our surprise, they were like, I thought they were gonna be like two older guys, like, you know, just kind of real sharp, like, businessman like, you know, kind of like

20:00 Don't know, there's intimidating for some, but like we met them, they're really cool. They like had really great ideas. And the whiskey they had was really good. And I was like, You know what, I think we can make this work. And at the time, I think Kenny just thought, you know, we were gonna do like, a barrel picker too with it. And I was like, No, no, no, Kenny, we need to start our own brand. And like, we could make something much more bigger than just one or two barrels from that. So I immediately left that meeting and I could not sleep for like two nights. I was so excited about the opportunity. Like I told my wife I came home and I'm like, this is this is something I've been dreaming of my whole life. This is opportunity. Like you always wanted to own Well, no, I never did but like that. You know, I've grown up around this my whole life. And I've always been enjoyed bourbon and I love being around the community and just even the opportunity to have my own brand like was like, just shocking to me and like I was so excited about it. I couldn't even put into words. I just bet

21:00 All my attention went to for like, four months. And so Kenny and I gone, you know, got on. I was like, I know a designer, let's get call him get a bottle design made up. Let's go. And then the broker sent us some samples, you know, to kind of pick our first barrel to see if we're still interested in tell him about, you know what we did up here? Yeah, I mean it was it was we had three barrel samples. And we all kind of know that it was coming from Tennessee. We knew that and that was one of the things that we thought ourselves. So we had we had we go into it with the same exact mindset that every other whiskey geek goes out there and they're like, I don't drink Tennessee whiskey. Yeah. And basically in like, no way. We're like, we're like we're from Louisville Bardstown. Kentucky is in our blood. Like, why would we ever do this? And so I said, Alright, you know what, like, let's give it a try. I said, Let's take these three barrel samples. I'll grab a bottle of Henry McKenna. And I said, if it's better than hundred McKenna, this was right after you'd like named whiskey.

21:57 When I say better, like better did our palates, right?

22:00 That day at that time, whatever it is, yeah. And so we sat outside or barrel proof versions of it, you know, we're just sitting there and we're drinking of it, and we're drinking it and home behold, like the first barrel that we lost that we liked. I was I, we loved it. We said, this is it. This is the winner. And that ended up being Episode 001 the first barrel release that we ever did. Yeah, so we went down there.

22:23 I think the first one we went on, they rolled out like 10 barrels that and our intentions were to just buy one barrel, and you know, and we get down there and we taste it. They're like, I don't know. 10 or 12 I can't remember exactly. And we found three that were like really good. And I was like, man, we got about three of them and I'm freaking out. Like how much is this gonna cost? How do we ship them? How do we do all this like there's like, you know, all this anxiety but I was excited because I knew the whiskey was good and I thought that people would enjoy it if they would just, you know, drop the stigma of Tennessee but if they open up the bottle and try it I was like I would because we taste

23:00 A lot of good stuff. I mean, not to say that we're gifted or our palates are better, but we, I mean, we're whiskey geeks like everyone else. And we've tasted pretty much anything and everything. And we thought that this was in that realm of really high quality product. And so I was like, Yes, I'm, I'll put my name on it. And let's get it to market. How did you all get the money to start this to just come from your own financing? Yeah, I mean, this is all completely bootstrapped by what we put into it and everything like that, we've got a pretty good deal that we cut out with our distributor, or our distributor, I'm sorry, our broker where our deal is basically says that we and this is this is also kind of the way that we built this as well. pursuit series is nothing like anything else that you can get in the bulk market because we've talked about the bullet market on the podcast before you want to start a brand. You need 50 barrels, here's your check for whatever 80,000 $90,000 maybe even probably $250,000 whatever it is.

24:00 Few trucks show up, your barrels roll off, you get what you get, right? Where to be empty, some can be half full, some could be full and some good taste like hell, some good, you know, it's just you don't know, it's a huge gamble. And so what we get the opportunity to do is actually go to the broker, and during the day two to 5000, barrels and inventory, he'll roll out what he can for us, and we'll sample through and we will select every single barrel we get to choose from, from the broker. So it's unlike everything else where it's actually a true single barrel that we are choosing out of amongst a lot of these. And when we're looking at a lot of the Tennessee stock, we reject about 80% of the barrels that we go through, right, so we're looking for really the best of the best when we go through this, that those guys that we work with, I won't name names, because you don't want to give them right. Well, no, I want to help them any way I can.

24:48 Because he's been instrumental to our success, and we wouldn't be here without him. But yeah, I mean, from the initial meeting, he was like, he's like, I know, you know, we have you

25:00 are not like typical people we sell to, you know, you're going to buy a barrel here, a barrel there. That's not what we typically do typically, like Kenny said they move 500,000 barrels at a time. And so he was very creative and like, how we could finance it, how we could make this work, he was very interested in making us succeed. And so that was one thing that, you know, is really helped us, you know, be able to cash flow this and kind of get to where it is. Otherwise we, I mean, we put up a lot of money upfront initially, but we were able to kind of recoup that pretty fast with the the financing terms He's given us. Yeah, and those financing terms may not last forever, because I know because like I said, we go and we select barrels now like now when we go when we select barrels, like I said, the first time we went we had 12 or 14 to select from. Now when we go it's anywhere between 30 to 60 barrels, and we do it over the span of two days. And we're slapping stickers left and right. And we're taking like, you know, maybe 1010 to 12 barrels when we do this. And he does the bottling too. Yes. Yes. So that's that's the great thing.

26:00 That's kind of like a one stop shop operation for us they'll do bottling they do labeling so we're able to source our glass source our tops, get our labels created, local design agency that we have and everything like that have them shipped down there. Yeah, you need if you're a bourbon brand out there you want some repackaging, or when to start relay design. They're incredible. Yep, here in local relay design as the one who actually helped build our, our label and everything like that. So um, so I was curious. The who came up with the idea of calling, you know, first of all the pursuit series, that makes sense, you know, but who came up with the idea to call each one of them in episode that was me. Really, just a brilliant idea I loved it was like each barrels, you know, a single barrel, so they're all unique, and I was like, we're really trying to

26:49 play off the podcast keys and that's where we were successful. And so I was in, you know, most bourbon bottles when we were doing the packaging and design. Most of bourbon balls are really masculine and they're very light

27:00 Serious, you know, they're dark, they're, you know really kind of like leather manly kind of and I wanted to brighten it up kind of make it fresh and fun and playful and our designer had the same kind of vision too. So he kind of, you know, if you'd look at a bottle, you know, it looks like you know, an iTunes

27:19 podcast player. So there's a play button, you know, there's the show notes and so I kind of came up with the episode and then I think you might have came up with the show notes I can't remember but we just wanted to play off the podcast as much as possible because you can do that with single barrels because they're all unique and they're all individual and they have their own different things that we like about them so I thought it made sense. We also stand on the shoulders of giants at the end of the day, right? I mean, we look at we a lot of this inspiration came from the brands that we already like and we cherish I mean when we look at what you can do from will it family estate, which you get with old forester birthday bourbon, when you look at that we took a lot of those cues and put them into there. You know with Will it family stay

28:00 Having a single barrel offering and knowing that like when that bottle is gone that's it when people are out there and they're like I've got to have barrel c nine D like gotta have it and then you know if that translate to the same thing as somebody says like oh I need Episode Five from you know procedures whatever it is they kind of translate that and we we try to be as transparent as we can on the label like that's one thing that we come from a whiskey background is like as much as we can put out there from you know, the proof the age everything like we want to make sure everything is ha did as much as possible. Not only that, as you know if we can

28:33 divulge the distillery we will we do that again with some of the craft offerings that will do yeah, and with the art labels are paying the s and are the most inefficient thing ever and it's my fault because of the episode and also, I did steal from birthday bourbon when I was looking at bottles on the shelf. I thought I liked how birthday bourbon had a different color of each one. And so when you look at a shelf, and you look at the different colors, you can say oh I have that particular

29:00 year two particular so I wanted that each episode to have their own color. So you look when you have them lined up, you're like you know which episode you have. Yeah, so both of you have been a part of the narrative of trying to get whiskey distillers to be more transparent. Now that you're on the other side a little bit. Do you understand? Do you have a little bit more appreciation for those distillers who may not be as transparent as they should be? Well, I can see in some instances, yes, I can see it because they've worked hard to build that brand recognition build that they, you know, they spent a lot of money to trademark you know, and protect that name so I can understand that they don't want some like piggybacking off that and kind of in particular, like we're talking about someone who may, like source their whiskey out or sell it at like Barton wood or decal, or even in some circumstances at once upon a time brown Forman or for Rosa heaven hills sourced a lot. Yeah, yeah. So I can understand why they don't end there. You know, at a time there were so many

30:00 People source and they still are, but there's so many different brands sourcing so I could see it, you know, just being confusing and

30:08 but at the same time too, it's like, it also helps them because it's like, you know how many like Lux ro s or Brooks seven or you know that you know, it's heaven Hill juice and you're like, Damn, that's good. It just elevates the heaven Hill brand even more in my opinion. But what I find fascinating is when one of them when a when one of them win an award, they're like, Well, you know, whose whiskey that really is? I was like, Yeah, I know. It's brown Forman. Why don't you let the world know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that was one of the things that we try to do is we try to take a lot of the things that the whiskey geek would find appreciative, right, and we try to divulge as much information as we can. And at the same exact time, I think that we've had a lot of good success and a lot of good feedback on the show notes portion as well. Because if there's somebody that says

30:54 I don't feel like taking a risk and a gamble on an on a 75 or $115 bottle, like I don't want to do that. Well.

31:00 What we do is we try to put our show notes like we try to find a prominent flavor or a little spin on it, that is a way that you can kind of get an indication of like, this is the flavor that we are getting inside this bottle, right? So you have a little bit of a better estimation of what you're getting yourself into that you're just not blindly throwing money at it as well. Let's go on to take it back to like the starting of the brand. I want to ask both of you this question, what was the most annoying thing at the very beginning about starting a brand? The government like paperwork, the paperwork is so annoying and so slow and so cumbersome? It's, I mean, they they really like they want you to quit, like they don't want you because the amount of paperwork and the waiting and all the stuff you have to fill out the trademarks, all this stuff. It's I mean, it's a lot of legwork and upfront costs just to even like get a label approved. And that that was the most annoying for me. Oh no, I agree with you because

32:00 Even going in navigating the process of figuring out like, okay, like what kind of license can we get? Like, we can't get a DSP because we don't own a distillery. We don't own a warehouse. We don't own these things. What kind of license do you get? And you look around, you're like, Well, I know this company x and this company, why like they don't own a distillery, like, how are they doing this? So there's this whole world of these even navigate to figure out like, Oh, that's what it means. We had to get our wholesalers license, and then we got our wholesalers license, and then we're like, Okay, well, let's go ahead and we'll start navigating this path. And then even trying to like we don't we haven't released anything from GP we have a bottom in GP, but we said, there's some good stuff from a GP, like, let's go ahead and get samples. And we talked to them and they're like, hey, okay, we need your DSP. Like, we don't have a DSP. Here's a wholesale license. They're like, What the hell's a wholesalers list? So it's like, you know, there's this whole world that it's just like, it's It's so confusing, that's underneath the covers, and even the people and they're like, we don't even know what you need sometimes, like, like, you fall with the Kentucky ABC. And they're like, we don't even know what you need. Like, let me try to get my supervisor well.

33:00 call you back in like four months.

33:03 That's a true story. Maybe not four months, but it was at least a few weeks. And yeah, there, we try to get registered with the state of Kentucky when we're trying to trying to least open up distribution in the state. And it was kind of like, well, what papers do you need? Well, I don't know. What do you have? Yeah. And then like you're you're buying and then you're buying whiskey and trying to transfer pause, the government's on shut down and you can't, so then they they're not doing anything. And then they have a backlog. So it takes even longer and you're like, you know, I own several businesses. And it's like, I like to move at a fast pace. I like to get things done. And Kenny's the same way in tech. And it's like when you try to do anything is you have to plan at least eight months in advance because it just takes that much in paperwork, shipping distribution and all this stuff. It's so slow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, our first bottles we were supposed to release of november of 2018. Right now they're supposed to be in September, and

33:57 they didn't Yeah, they didn't release till what December.

34:00 Yeah, late December. Yeah. All right. So you guys, it takes a little while to get some approvals. But you get it you get, you get your look of the bottle and everything ready to go and then you get your first release out. And it's a pretty successful release. It's sold out quickly. Within a within a day. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's who I mean, what new brand can say they sold out their first release in a day. Well, to be fair, it's only it's a single barrel. So it's only 100 fake. You know, that shit, guys, it is. It was surreal. I you know, I thought it I thought it'd be quick, but not that quick. And so it was very, it was very cool. But with that, you know, is new to us and new with our our distributors toolbox. They were just kind of up and running. And so there were a lot of just roadblocks from both ends, like we didn't know how to do customer service or some shippings didn't get, you know, correct, you know, not their fault. Just

35:00 Just things happen, you know, when you're shipping things and you're like, from now on, we got to hold back so many bottles so we can make sure we can cover you know, all the, you know, anything have any things happen because we, we literally need to sell out everything to like recoup our money like so we didn't, you know, keep a bunch of bottles, you know, so we're just like, we need to sell it. And so we definitely learned that aspect. We need to hold back some to

35:24 Yeah, fix any errors. Any you know, on that note, you know, you know, big shout out to Blake. Yeah. What didn't mean what he wasn't trying to talk? No, no, absolutely. But I'm just saying like this. This is only successful because of him so far, right? I mean, yeah, Blake has been a great part. It was it was one of those things when we were I remember being there at our broker. And you know, we had to take a break because there's another person there doing a barrel pick. And we go we're in the break room, and I'm on the phone with Blake because Blake was just like just getting steel blocks off the ground, just like kind of like an idea. And I said like, Alright, man, you got to tell me how this works.

36:00 Because we have a national audience, we're not going to sit there and try to cover the entire US and try to get distribution in all these different states. Like, tell me how it works, right. And so that has been instrumental in being able to get this in the hands of our followers and listeners across the nation. And this is kind of why we are also a big supporter of breaking down the, you know, the Commerce Clause and the opening up shipping between states and everything like that. And, you know, we've we've seen the power of what, not having a distributor can actually give you Yeah, I mean, that's that's really what we've ultimately found at this at the end of the so one of the one of the things that

36:42 what how it's being operated is a threat to the three tier system. And there's so much money behind that and there's so many people out there trying to defend it right now. Do you ever get nervous that this model might come crashing down at any time

37:00 Any minute when we we bring a day. Yeah. And we branched out because that there, there was a time last year.

37:08 In the summer I kind of was like, Alright, we need to kind of diversify how we're going to get this into people's hands. And so we've, we looked at our biggest states and where we have the most listeners or who who have

37:24 followers who's purchased things from us. And so I was like, Alright, let's look at those states. So it was Kentucky, Texas, Georgia. And so I was like, we need to get some distribution, traditional distribution set up in those states, because we want to be able to get just in case something we want to be able to get the product to where we have the most fans. Well, you have you have that's twofold, right? I mean, you have one where you have stores that want their own exclusive single barrels, like they want to be able to have that for their customers. And then second, you can't get away from the eyes that you get just eyeballs Right. I mean, when somebody just goes into a liquor store and they start looking and

38:00 What's on the shelf? What's behind the glass case? Blah, blah, blah, blah. It's a lot easier to get eyeballs on your brand doing that than it is to say, hey, go visit this website. Yeah, right. I was amazed like, when we when our list our audiences found but when you tried it like we did a friends and family barrel where we were like selling just to our friends and family to say thank you for the support, you know, and you know, a lot of my family members are like, like, what do you mean I can't go get on the shelf like I can't go to liquor barn again. I was like, No, you gotta go this website and like ordering like, that sounds like too much work. I was like, really? You'd be on every day. Like while I was gonna say when Bart did they just get internet or

38:38 I've got dollop now, you know, thanks a bit, you got mail. But even just like everyday consumer, you know, people that are whiskey geeks like you tell them they're like, Where can I go get on the shelves. There's still this mindset of in which I like it to like go on the store, talking to people seeing it on the shelf and see what it looks like holding it and so there's definitely that you

39:00 kinda have to like change people's mindset that you can get online order and it'll show up. Yeah. Because there is something about the experience of going to the store. And having that built in audience to it. You want to you want to be able to supply

39:15 you know, meet the demand of this audience, this podcast audience, and how have you all been able to do that aside from silver box? So I mean, that's it's see boxes, it's the main driver, right? I mean, going online was the main driver. And that's only because that is the best mechanism to get it in the most hands across the US. We can't get into everybody's hands because of certain states. But that's why we said traditional distribution. Yeah, I mean, those states and that was one of the things I think I think Ryan had that that lightbulb moment when he had to actually go to Texas for for an event. And he realized Houston alone has more population, the entire state of Kentucky and what just I was in Dallas, but yeah, Dallas has like 7 million people. He says like 11 you're like Kentucky has like

40:00 Three or 4 million people, you know, there's a ton of people here. There's more barrels of bourbon here, then then people as Yeah, like to say so Exactly. We're a small state. But yeah, that's one of the main drivers when we look at population that's and that's one of the things when now we start connecting those dots when we start talking. And you start hearing about other distilleries, and they're like, Oh, I'm sorry, this brand is not going to launch in Kentucky. And people are like, oh, like, you're not gonna launch in your own backyard. And it's like, no,

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Whiskey Quickie: Elijah Craig 18-Year-Old

Tue, 26 May 2020 10:30:38 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Elijah Craig 18-Year-Old. This single barrel bourbon is 90 proof and around $200 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

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254 - The Present and Future of Jim Beam with Fred and Freddie Noe

Thu, 21 May 2020 10:30:13 GMT

What can you say, sitting down with the Noe family is always a treat. Fred Noe, Master Distiller at Jim Beam, and Freddie Noe, 8th Generation Distiller, are about as genuine and real as it comes. This show takes a bunch of turns. We talk about the new Fred B. Noe Distillery where new projects and small batch blends will take place, Legent, Little Book, and... we ask Fred Noe if he’s ready to retire. You’ll love his response.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Weller.
Tell us about the property.
What are your plans for growth?
What are the plans for the Fred B. Noe Distillery?
How did you get interested in blended whiskies?
What's the hardest part about blending?
Fred, what was your past blending experience?
What did you learn when creating Legent?
How long was the creation process for Legent?
Where did you disagree in the process?
What kind of ideas do you have for the new distillery?
Do you like focusing on consistency or innovating?
Will Little Book always be a blended product?
Did you always want to be part of the family business?
Fred, are you ready to retire?
Talk about the ham house.
Any hobbies outside of bourbon?

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0:00 So if we're going to do any innovation from was putting knob Creek on it, it needs to be in that knob Creek family you can't go off and have a run punch knob Creek. You know, who knows?

0:27 Welcome back everybody it's Episode 254 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny, and let's talk about some new releases. We have touched down in Texas. Yes, our first release of pursuit series is now available in five different specs retailers across the entire state. Episode 26 is a 15 year old Tennessee bourbon, our tasting notes, our brown sugar churros with a chocolate caramel dipping sauce. It's got me thinking about dessert already. So listen up because there's only five stores carrying Episode 26 across Texas and it's only expected Retailers so you've got Dallas at 9500 North Central expressway in Fort Worth at 2750 South keulen Street, Austin, Texas 4970 West highway 920 San Antonio at 5219 does avala and Houston at 2410 Smith Street. Happy Hunting Texans with more pursuit series news Episode 24 and 25 are now available on seal box comm if you're looking to get your hands on another bourbon with a high h demon, Episode 24 is another 15 year old release that can be shipped nationwide. This one it's all chocolate milk. I know many of you are looking for something super unique and we also have a weeded bourbon from Finger Lakes distilling and which is our episode 25. Our last two barrels from Finger Lakes wet quick so we're excited to bring another one to you. So go to seal box comm search for pursuit or you can go to pursuit spirits calm and click the Buy Now button on Our website we also have some other single barrel picks coming in our 17 men to foolproof and to Buffalo Trace barrels will be landing very soon, so heads up to our Patreon community and pay attention to your emails when they start rolling in. And other release news Wild Turkey has announced that they are releasing a 17 year old bottled in bond under the Masters keep label. The Masters keep bottled and bond will be a limited release with approximately 14,400 bottles with a suggested retail price of $175. On the trade of new releases, the TTB has approved over 180,000 products over the last 12 months through April of 2020 which is about an increase of 5.1% over last year, around 8700 labels in beer there are around 42,000 products that were approved in the last 12 months. Wine 120,000 in spirits 17 point 4000 however, the one that has The biggest gainer is actually spirits because in beer, the last three months there was only 10 and a half thousand which is actually 21% less than last year. And wine there were there almost 30,000 over the last three months with is 22% less than last year, and then spirits by about 4.7 thousand over the last three months, which is an 11.3% increase over last year. Now let's talk about some industry news. Earlier this year the Indiana alcohol and tobacco commission denied total wine a liquor license in the state because it does not meet the state's residency minimum requirements. Under current state law, at least 60% of a company's common stock must be owned by people who have lived in Indiana for five years. In true total wine style. The retailer promptly filed lawsuit against the agency and bit based on the Supreme Court opinions on Granholm and total wine versus Tennessee. The district court's decision will grant to the retailer's preliminary injunction prohibiting state from enforcing its residency requirement. This is again one more Domino to fall where we will soon see more interstate commerce law start lifting. And for today's podcast, what can you say? sitting down with the nose, it's always a treat Fred and Freddy note are about as genuine and as real as it comes in the show. It's gonna take a bunch of turns. We talk about the Fred Dino distillery legend, little book blending. And we asked Fred No, catch this one. If he's ready to retire. I think you might be shocked at his answer, and we're not going to give it away. All right, so Joe from barrel bourbon wants you to know that it's gotten a whole lot easier to get their unique cat strength whiskies from around the world. Just visit barrel bourbon, calm today, and click the Buy Now button. Up next we got Fred minich with above the char, so continue to stay safe and enjoy the show.

4:52 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char Oh, I opened my email with excitement when I saw that headline, new welder single barrel. Oh boy have we been waiting on this one? Have we known about it for so long and wanted to see that press release and see the price on and how it would be distributed and where? how we could get it. Oh, I couldn't wait to read about it. It was a few paragraphs long. And you know it said MSRP of 4999. Now, listen, I love weather. I love weather weather is probably I think the most successful product line and all of bourbon you got a special reserve allocated? Well our 107 antique allocated well a 12 year old allocated well our foolproof allocated, William LaRue Weller super allocated and every single one of those over the course of my career has had 90 points or higher from me and they're all typically quite delicious and those that aren't supremely delicious are better than Pretty much just about everything else in their category. So it's it's a great line of whiskey and Buffalo Trace does such an amazing job there whiskies so good. But the fact of the matter is, as soon as that gets into stores, that MSRP of 4999 will be shot all to hell by household retailers who want to mark it up for 100% by flippers who go in and buy a bottle and find somebody on the internet Who will pay two $300 for it. I know there's no easy way to do this. And I know Buffalo Trace really, really does hope that you you the bourbon fan can be that one person who gets it for 4999 and they think that this is the way to keep everybody engaged and hope that that price keeps them coming back for more. But we got to be realistic. These SRP s For whiskey, that's so great. So great. They're just they're just not. They're just not there. I would love to be able to pay $50 for this whiskey, I really would. But the fact of the matter is, I would be willing to pay far more. And I don't know this. I don't know this. And the reason why I say the reason to say I'd be willing to I'd love to buy it at that SRP. Don't get me wrong. But I wonder if if they raise the SRP, just enough to cartel the retailers from increasing it from 4999 to 100. Or if it was just enough to cut into the profit margins of a flipper. I wonder if that would stop some of it. Now, I don't know it's all based on consumer behavior. And right now we're all acting very differently. So maybe this is the one time because of the virus, maybe this is the one time we will actually see a suggested retail price of a Weller be just that on the shelf. And you know, if there's anything good come from a pandemic, which few and far between, maybe that's at least one positive we can take out of it. Now, not even that it's that positive, because still, we're in a friggin pandemic. And that sucks. But I do hope that you can find it on the shelf at your local retailer for 4999. And if you do find one of those, if there's two bottles there, grab both of them. Call me and I'll get the other one from you. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, I've got some great news. I'm so excited about this while the pandemic has taken away 100% of my live events, I mean, bourbon and beyond gone, all these private tastings I've had gone. I now have a way to book me for private tastings. Go to Fred MiniK Topeka dot live. That's Fred MiniK dot Topeka dot live and you You can book me for a private tasting. I've also got a regular Lecture Series setup, called bourbon revealed. The history myths and scams. So if you wanna learn about bourbon scams, go check it out. But that's this week's above the char Until next week, cheers.

9:21 Welcome back to episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan headed down to Claremont, Kentucky today, sitting in an office that we've we've been familiar with before, we had an opportunity to sit with this master distiller one previous time on the podcast, but now we got him and his son on here, the next in line, hopefully to take over the throne. But, you know, this is also an opportunity that first time we've had one of these people on the guests or on on the podcast, but you've also had a history with one of our guests as well, too.

9:51 I guess you said yeah, we were. Well, we play football together basketball. went to the same high school. I'm a little older, he's probably more mature than I

10:01 wouldn't say

10:02 but yeah I was good sharing some funny stories about football and stuff so now I'm happy to see Friday It's been a while so I always forget out great the view as to when we come here like I mean when Do y'all ever just walk out you're like damn you know oh amazing but

10:19 sit on the front porch a lot. Yeah, I just want to get away from emails Squadron sit. Yeah, marinate. I see what's going on. Because when the sun shining and it's

10:27 nice. Yeah, so

10:29 super camera row, you'll see a lot of photos or just random sunsets or sunrises here just because you know, sometimes you come in and you just kind of takes your breath because like you say, sometimes you take it for granted even Oh, now you know being here every day.

10:42 Well, yeah, when I grew up here, you drive to 45 Volvo and you like, Don't even think twice about Bernheim forest or anything now I'm like looking at it's like it's this magical place. Go see the

10:51 giants.

10:55 So you've heard their voices now. So today on the show, we have Fred and Freddie no master distiller And the in training, if you will to be taken over there one day of Jim Beam. So fellas again, Fred, welcome back, Freddie. Glad to have you on back. Yeah. So yeah, I kind of want to talk about that view a little bit more too because I think it's something that is kind of wrong. You kind of put it the best way to kind of like takes your breath away a little bit. You know, you probably it's one of those things that it might be in your backyard. You only think about it, you know, even being in Louisville. everybody's like, Oh, we think a slugger museum and like, I've probably been there since I was to grade school. Almost like you just don't think about it when it's in your backyard. But it's it's awesome to finally like come up here and you said probably after that day, you just kind of go out there. Pour soft glass and kick it in the rock or something like that.

11:43 Absolutely. It's perfect spot and I want to set up my office up here. As I

11:48 hit that watering hole, you know, after hours.

11:51 I used to be in the basement with no windows where

11:54 maybe they figured they'd kept me in jail long enough. It was time to turn me loose.

11:58 Yes. Let you see the light When did when did that happen? One of the we're like we're because so anybody that's unfamiliar with the grounds, the visitor centers.

12:07 The caddy corner to this bigger White House that you see over here. Where was the when did the move happen? Well, in 2012, we opened the steel house, and our Chief Marketing Officer at the time, I thought that I should be closer to the visitors because he'd saw my interaction with people just walking around. And he said, we need to get your work closer to the folks that are coming out of season. Why don't we put your office in the beam house, which is kind of ironic. Baker beam, my cousin gave me a picture of me in the same room where I am where my office is, when I was two years old, sitting in my dad's lap with my mom. So it was kind of he said, You're coming home full circle, and I'll come right back to where I was when I was two years old. And actually my dad sits just about where that easy chair was Booker was sitting in and we have here real close and being Baker actually lived here. This house he was the last beam family member and we turned it into offices and conference room upstairs. So in 2012 mobs came from down below the hill to the top of the hill. So

13:11 my vote would have been the knob Creek house, you know, to like get away from everyone get a

13:16 nice view when they when they redid the house up there. Yeah, I saw be my office. I said we'll never find you.

13:24 You're on down.

13:25 That's the point. Yeah,

13:26 well, so I guess I don't really know about the knob Creek house. So where is the knob Creek couser. I'm assuming it's by knob Creek, but

13:32 no, actually, it's on the property here at Claremont. And it's kind of funny how we acquired it. We went into it. It was owned by the everbank family, which owned the Cadillac Dealer in Louisville back when Jim Beam was was still running the distillery and I guess they had signed a some kind of agreement that we could utilize that water source. There's a lake back there. Use that water source when we needed it for distillation purposes and somewhere that had gotten lost and so in the was it early 90s I think is like 92 or 93. We ended up buying this property to gain access to the water. And then through purchasing it we actually found out that we already had right of use of the water. So we didn't nearly need the property after all, but the knob Creek team put up some money to redo the house. The house was kind of falling down, because like I said, we were there for just the water. And now it's kind of turned into kind of a little getaway place. We've got up on the hillside on the other Hill, we're on one Hill. If you go back down to planting up on the other side,

14:33 on Airbnb

14:40 it was the White House on Yeah, they're on. They're on Airbnb. So it's a pretty cool place. It's got a nice Lake there in the back. It's up, as we say kind of up in the holler. So there's not much. Not much going on up there. Dad's kind of got a little funny story about some people that stayed it's kind of good. I want her to hear this. I want her to complaint, you know and the whole time as we let Customers are coming in to purchase barrels or you know just coming to visit the client to stay there it's a three bedroom house and there was a group from New York bar owners and went up and visited them and they got him settled in and live next morning and came to the office as How was it? I don't know man sir. is too dark and too quiet. I

15:22 guess if you come from man had like good like sound machines have their

15:26 sleep in New York they used to yeah horns and he has a discerns and then up there there's no streetlights Yeah, so I mean you know the dark when the sun goes down, it's dark. I said well, we could had a lot of fun with him. We just snuck up burned picked on the wind. It's funny say the banjo in the background or something.

15:46 Really get them scared,

15:47 right? Fair enough as it was it sounded like but

15:50 you know, I'll have to read the review on Airbnb. Great place Lake but to quiet.

15:56 Three and a half, three and a half star

16:00 So the other thing I want to talk about the property alone, I mean, the bourbon boom is still growing. You all are still building warehouses. I mean, I used to drive by here going to Bardstown quite a bit in the past year, and you would be able to see there was you could see the skeleton growing outside of the warehouse. That was you could just see going down towards Bardstown. What are you all seeing right now with the growth in regards of like, are you able to still acquire more property around you? Or is it just kind of like hey, we've just got to make use of what we have right now.

16:29 We're making use of what we have but we're always looking with burn arm fours burner neighbor we're kind of you know, there's no way we're gonna get put warehouses over there but we're looking for joining property we can find any for possible growth in the future

16:45 with promise there's no flat ground here. There really

16:47 isn't a lot of waiting to get young.

16:49 I saw Yeah, I saw the you know, they're knocking out some limestone up there. Does that for another warehouse sir.

16:56 That's actually where the Fred B no craft distillery is gonna go. That call the new distillery is going to be going there we're getting some dirt work moving. But you know his point of Burnham actually they bought some land behind us here as well. So we're kind of surrounded on on two sides by Burnham which I mean you know all their conservation work so it's great for us as for our watershed to be able to have such great neighbors but it does from time to time kinda with no I mean there's just no land really available around us it's all kind of you know, bought up or housing has kind of come around a little bit as well. But luckily we do have a little bit of space at Boston where we can continue to put some new warehouses so all is good for now it beam we'll see how it goes in the future because you know, land is a very valuable commodity if we need to keep expanding warehouses.

17:43 I know it's harder one of the things to actually plan out if somebody was in the land or like Okay, now we're making pay top dollars, right?

17:49 real bad, right? Yeah.

17:51 Oh, yeah. That's running here. We want it Yeah.

17:54 Nobody cared about this stuff. for 20 years now they want the this land.

17:58 Well, it is funny even you know, we talk About the price of land around here and we're like, oh man, but the people in California, New York, they're like, what you pay? You pay? What? For? What? Yeah.

18:08 13,000 an acre. It sounds

18:11 crazy. Yeah, that sounds it sounds too cheap. They're like, yeah, they pay that in a mortgage for one month or something like that was some of the places some, so it kind of talks about about the Fred Urbino distillery, like what's what's the grand plans for it? You know, what's the what's the idea for it?

18:26 Yeah, I guess I'll kind of start on that one. It was an idea that I had had, I guess really, as as I was working on little book, and really getting into kind of product development. I noticed that you know, with blending, there's so many different aspects that you can go into, and drive different flavor through bringing these different streams together. And so as I was actually sharing the first batch of little book, coincidentally at my grandmother's bereavement, actually, our CEO would come down and we just chat and you know, after it was over, and he says anything on your mind. I said, you know, I'd really like to have a small distillery where we could do some experimentation, whether it be through mash bill through operating parameters, different barrel lengths, things like that on a smaller on a smaller scale. And so I let him taste a little book as kind of a teaser there to say, Hey, you know, this is kind of some of the things we could maybe come up with. And so that's kind of how it got going. And it's kind of evolved over time as it's been probably about a four year process of us getting kind of locked into what a where we want it down there at the bottom of the hill now. And then kind of what what it was going to serve its purpose and so we're going to be pulling into Booker's and bakers production. And kind of basically anything that is in our small batch or super premium category will be made in this distillery once we get it up and going, but it's also going to serve as kind of a playground as he said a couple of times for myself and some of our r&d team to really get in there. And, and for me, it's a lot about Learning about our current whisky even, you know, having the opportunity to get in there and put, you know, new probes and things like that, as you expand distilleries, a lot of times your your app or experimentation kind of goes to the wayside. And it's more about production needs,

20:15 and that and consistency, and I think that

20:17 you're exactly right quality and consistency. And so being able to kind of step back, almost kind of start at a smaller scale and be inefficient on purpose to where we can

20:28 actually screw up. Yes, right. And your work, you know,

20:32 you know, and that's kind of how I pitched it as we kind of got into some of the meetings was Hey, you know, I could make some of these adjustments in the distillery today, but when you all get a phone call and see the amount of gallons that I've, you know, made an adjustment just to see what would happen, whether it'd be a good or a bad thing you know,

20:48 know that all right, this

20:48 one thing quite turn out right? We have to scrap it. What

20:51 exactly so given us a good opportunity to be able to explore a lot further as as we try to look to expand the American whiskey agree

21:00 that was actually just kind of answered my next question because I was about to ask like, Why couldn't you just experiment with something else at this? And then you just said it's basically because of the larger production. So if you want to change a different ratio of the corn to the rye or anything like that, then you're not everything. Oh, yeah, you're kind of stuck with it for the next x to the X amount of years. Right?

21:19 You're exactly right. I think a lot of it comes down to having that smaller batch size to be able to do some of those things, whether it's tweaking the grain, or even, you know, we have a lot of unique vessels in our distillation system. We utilize some of them, we take some of them offline for some of our products. But as you say, it is today's time if I want to do a just that, you know, for Booker's, we bypass a retention tank. If I wanted to bypass the retention take in something else, essentially, I haven't been making Booker's it's an experiment. And we're pretty tight on still time. As you know, bourbon is just can't make enough of it. So really, those experiments can can be counterproductive, even if it do you do. Hit on Something good, you know, because you're missing regular production to do these things. Yeah.

22:03 So Fred, what do you think about that? Are you like, I think it's not broke, don't screw it up.

22:08 What are you doing? Either you have to my dad, he was always tinkering with stuff. Yeah, over to Boston plant over there, you know, in the book or no plant. You know, it was funny watching him, you know, Chicago folks would come down, they always visited Claremont. This is where the conference rooms were, this is where the bottling was. So over there and he always kind of called them in Siberia. I can do whatever I want to do. And the people from the house of knowledge as he used to call it, they didn't know what I was doing so he could he could tweak things and do things like Freddie's talking, and they never knew so he could make something and ease it right in and try different things. And nobody you know, ever knew but now everything is so allocated and steel time is so tight because you know, in the 70s they shut the Boston plan down so you know, they didn't really need the Liquid as much as we do today. Every hour is money big time. We need whatever we're making there. Now Freddie can play and do some stuff and that's when he took the ball and ran with it. There's a lot of people been trying to get this craft distillery for several years. But when he brought it up to Matt Shattuck, our former CEO, Matt jumped on it immediately. Then he goes back to as I called it, the house of knowledge and said, we would like to do this and all of a sudden, all this interest became Okay, we're gonna do it. You know,

23:32 Freddie, where did you get the interest for blended whiskies? What was that? What draw drew you to that?

23:38 It's kind of crazy. I've thought about it probably 1000 over 1000 times with like, when I like it came to me. I don't remember talking about it. Now I don't need I was gonna say I was gonna ask you to blend in but

23:52 we won't talk to one

23:58 whatever. You can find it the Time, right?

24:01 No, you know, I guess in reality just through learning in the distillery, you know, I don't recall if it was even before I came to the distillery, but I know as I had an internship, right as I was probably about a year and a half before I was finishing up College, where I went around to each department in the distillery or in the facility, not just the distillery, they're bottling and everything shipping. And it was kind of during that time that the the idea came to me because you know, I had had a beat in my head we use corn, rye and malted barley for Jim Beam. So from a very young kid, I knew those three grains were what made the liquid of Jim Beam. But so as I got into distilling and learning, I just kind of took me to if you took corn, whiskey rye whiskey and malt whiskey, individually and then blended them to those mash bill percentages. My thoughts were at four years old, what it tastes like Jim Beam or what it tastes like something not even close to bourbon, even though you're utilizing the same grains and so we're That's where it kind of started thing. And so at the end of that internship went back to school. I just remember thinking about that and thinking, I'm not gonna ask anybody this question. So I don't feel like a dumb man. Because I didn't know you know, I mean, I was like, is this a stupid question? The hell? I wouldn't know. Right? So I got a chance later to do an internship with our r&d team. And really, really, it was about me getting in there and learning their processes and how they affect our our day to day business. And they kind of pitched to me to come up with a couple of prototype liquids while I was there. One of them I don't really like to talk about, but it's kind of funny. Let's Let's hear it. Okay. I will go on and bring it out. The best part about it listen to these things are things that just no lighter. Yeah, right. So I tell it from time to time, but not too much. But so they said we want you to before you go back to the plant, I want you to kind of act as an r&d product developer, and pitch to us two different prototype liquids. And they gave me a couple of rules. One of them could be a bourbon or a whiskey. And the other one could not be. So I couldn't just do to you know, I couldn't just go get a six year old and a nine year old and say, Oh, this is two new whiskies that aren't out on the market. And then one of them because I had been working with flavoring, you know, we at Pinnacle vodka was very popular at that time. So we were working on a lot of different flavors in that aspect. So a lot of my time was working with them as well learning what they do. So they had pitched it as one of them could be a bourbon, one of them couldn't. And one of them needed to have some type of flavoring to it. So I went to work on which also makes sense because even like the apple and everything like that they're very popular absolute drinks out there for a lot of the consumers. Absolutely. So I, you know, me being me, I guess I wanted to knock out both of those rules on one so I could focus on the other and do exactly what I wanted.

26:50 Fred is this is this, just another shortcut that he's just taken? Is that what this is I get to go

26:58 back a long road versus Short road he's gonna take it which is that's good. It was much like his grandfather. I see a lot of booger in Freddy. It's a It's amazing. So you know, as a kid I liked Hawaiian Punch juicy red juice. Oh, I think everybody loved

27:12 it. Yeah.

27:14 But so i thought you know, we go to the beach every year for vacation, I thought if I could develop a liquid that I could just sip on the rocks or even if you just put it in a cooler and chilled it and just drink it neat. You know, I like fruity cocktails on the beach from time to time. It's nice and nice and warm out. So I thought I'm going to create this. I called it rum punch and it was going to be juicy red juice flavored

27:37 romaine. I thought you're gonna say push up.

27:40 Close, but not quite. It's a Howard's down drink. Yeah. So I went to work on that. And dad was there. This is where it was interesting. So as I'm getting ready, do my presentation. They're like, Oh, we invited your dad and I think even the plant manager to come see your presentation because I was presenting the sounds like great. Not only did I work on Something with flavors and kind of rum. They invited my dad to taste the same thing. But so that one that one wasn't very good. It didn't taste anything like Hawaiian Punch juicy red juice. And I wouldn't I don't know that anybody's even sipped I've still got the sample bottle at home. I don't know if anybody's even tried it since I

28:19 since I made it. What did it turn out to be like? What did it actually taste like?

28:22 It didn't taste it kind of tastes like fruit punch a little bit. Just a boozy fruit. It was kind of a boozy fruit punch

28:32 wasn't before your time like now the ready to drink category is booming right now so maybe it's just a few years too early

28:38 to revisit exactly one of our marketing guys gives me some some shit I guess he'll say you know because he talks about a little bit he's like your next products going to be that that room punch I promise you we're gonna make sure that's the next probably you and i t shirt. Don't give him any more. I got plenty on his own. But so that's kind of I thought, you know, got that one out of the way. I will Walking around up there to the lab and I seen some samples of four year old corn whiskey. Obviously we had four year old rye whiskey. And that's kind of where that thought really sparked in my head was I'm gonna try this blend that I have been thinking about, that hadn't really talked to anybody about. And so that's kind of how it started. I created what I call it was Jim being blended. And it was a four year old corn whiskey blended with a four year old rye whiskey and a four year old malt whiskey blended back to the percentage, the Jim Beam Asheville. It wasn't very good either. It was very corn forward, you know, it's organic, right? In theory that Yeah, early and today I was excited. And, you know, to be dabbling in blending. I already had a good idea, you know, with the mash bill percentages, that I was going to do the certain percentages. So it was a little bit simpler than that. And then some of my blending has become as I've worked on little book, but it really opened my eyes because that one wasn't that great. But I tweaked it a little bit as I was in the lecture. Just to see if there was any differences as you change and that's really what sparked my interest in blending was getting in there and, and traveling something that I had kind of had in my head and was really honestly a little worried to share it because I thought it might be a stupid question, you know, but I kind of come to learn that there's there's not a lot of stupid questions sometimes. The most simple question can lead you to some great things. What's her

30:21 what's kinda like the hardest part about blending that you've really found out? Like, is it just trying something you're like, it's gonna work I'll get a bunch of wasted product like what's what's the hardest part you figured out about blending so far?

30:31 I guess the for me the hardest part is, or I guess the most challenging would be, you know, if you've got four liquids and you put them at 25% each, by doubling up on one or you know, doubling a little bit, not doubling but adding a little bit more say 10% more of another and dropping percentages. It's not as apples to apples as the flavor being closer to the original one stream. As those liquids kind of mingled together. They really take on different For an identity, and I think that's where I thought blending, you know, if if I like this at 20%, if I add 23%, and I'm looking to get a, say a longer finish, and I know the other two liquids I'm using or three liquids I'm using have a shorter finish. You know, sometimes you think by adding more of the one that is giving the attributes, you think it actually throws the whole blend out of balance, and has negative aspects of it. The one good thing is you get to taste a lot of samples. And when you're blending, as I say, with with straight whiskies or straight spirits that that are phenomenal on their own, it's, it's kind of hard to say that it's a bad blend, it's just maybe not the exact direction you want to go. So I get a taste a lot of good samples. But I think the challenging part is, when you have an idea or you're trying to hit on something, whether it be like I said, a longer finish or maybe a little more aroma on the nose. Getting to those places from where you are is a lot more challenging than just maybe adding a couple more drops of this or that and

31:58 go ahead I was gonna say After you come up with the kind of your blend and it's like nail, you're like this is awesome in the tube. But then like, does that always translate to a bigger batch you know, Are there times when they get bigger like this did not turn out like they always tell us every barrel is a little bit different

32:13 it is you know, and I think we do a really good job after I've gotten to a prototype in my my test tube there, we'll go out and get some more samples of different barrels from the same lots that I'll be utilizing for a little book or whatever we're working on, just to make sure that because when we're doing a small blend, you could go get one barrel of each liquid, and you could blend for months because you know, it's just one barrel. So a lot of liquids there and you're only blending in a lot of times, maybe 3753 or 750 ml sizes, so there's a lot of whiskey. So going back and then picking different barrels from that same area or same date that it was distilled, just to make sure it's hitting those profiles. So before I finalize, we make sure that the liquids are going to be variable Similar. And then of course, at the end, if when we're dumping for bottling knock on wood, it hasn't happened yet. But for the first three little books, each of them was was very similar and aligned with the profile that I was looking for. But we'll see how that continues to go because we do keep reserved barrels just think I never tried to use every single barrel because if you want to make a little tweak, and you've already dumped every barrel, you're kind of kind of pigeon holed there. So hopefully, like I said, knock on wood that our process continues to go as it does. But as you said it every barrel is a little bit different No matter if they're side by Saturday and totally different warehouses. So it's, it's that's kind of where the art comes into it a lot, for sure. And so Fred, part of this is, you know, what was your kind of like past blending experience? I mean, is it if you try to recreate something that Freddie's doing here, have you been focused on like, production operation and stuff like that, rather than sitting here and saying, like, okay, let's start blending a lot of different products to see if we can make something new. Well, we you know, we mingled a lot is funny. We don't blend we mingle when Freddie got into the blending has no that was always a curse word in bourbon. Yes. You know until a little book, you know, he really crawls the path that got people thinking about blending in bourbon because, you know, when you say blended in this state, you start thinking about great neutral spirits and colors and flavors, which that's not bourbon. But when we had the Suntory acquisition, I was tasked and it was actually after Freddie had done his first version of little book to work with Cindy the chief Blender from Suntory to bring east and west together. So we actually blended and created the product Legion, which it was essentially was doing the same thing dad did, we're finishing bourbon in secondary barrels and then taking those fluids and putting them together. So that's where we kind of dip my toes in, in the blending but we were tasked For the from the CEO of Suntory. And that's what they wanted us to do to bring the two cultures together. And it was a learning experience for me. First we had to learn to be able to understand each other are

35:15 very, very different. You have a translator between you too,

35:18 like no, we used to, I guess our eyes when we tasted, you can look at each other's eyes and tell he speaks much better English than I do Japanese.

35:29 So mostly it was Cindy trying to figure out what I was saying. And then sometimes when we get on conference calls, I didn't have a clue what it was okay, whatever you say Sanjay and he was sent samples, and we would get together whenever he was here in the States. or whenever I was in Japan, we would sit and just taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, and it was a it was a learning experience for me, but I kind of saw what Freddie did with his little book because the variant just a little bit more of this and a little bit less than that. It can change it dramatically. Also, the mingling in the tank, just because it tastes like this today, it doesn't mean it's gonna taste like that tomorrow because we did sign with Legion we would taste and then the next day we taste it was wait a minute didn't taste the same. So the mingling together after you blended the fluids, so we've got tanks that we built specially for this product down here and it's got a slow row agitation in it. So that mix it up and we don't just mix it, blend it and bottle it we make sure it sits in this tank in the tank never goes dry. Some of the techniques that Cinzia uses in Japan, which over here for four, we fill the tank with liquid, we ran it dry and then we came back and did it again. We never left heels as we called it in there and dumped it on top of them.

36:52 I mean is that the same thing as considering like the selection method, but usually people call it

36:57 in regards to that maybe a little bit but we don't let it go. Lately driving a little bit left and he's dumping on top, so it's as all new and we had to train our operators here at the plant because they weren't used to that kind of technique on production. So it was a learning curve for all of us here in Kentucky and I know it was a learning curve for Cinzia in Japan because he'd never played with Bourbons before, he was amazed the temperature here and the finishing, how quick bourbon will take on the flavor from say, red wine barrel, or Sherry cask. You know, he was thinking maybe two summers after one, we'd already picked up flavors that he was ready for. So kinda. It was like, a big learning curve just like Freddie's learning with he is, we learned a lot for this Legion. And so it's been it's been fun to watch and to get involved even late in my career to get to do a little blending and play with it. And it makes me appreciate more what Fred has been doing, because I understand it's not just dumping things together. A graduated cylinder and saying, well, I want to 20% of the 30% of that. In loans, your numbers add up to 100. And you're good, not. That's not how it works, you know, it's trial and error. And then what strength Do you bottle at? I mean, there's a lot of variables that you can change a lot by just a little bit of water maybe or your finishing times. It was a, it was a great,

38:24 great experience for me. I just realized, I've been saying it wrong the whole entire time. I always said legend, right. So Legion now now and I believe I'm starting to say, I don't

38:32 know if that's a

38:34 word or not.

38:36 It's coming from the Gospel of you right now. So that's what I'm gonna talk about the

38:40 gospel of Fred.

38:43 I sent you down some dark paths.

38:48 So gonna also talk about the time commitment that went into it, because I mean, you just said that there were times when either you know he was coming here. You're going to Japan your mailing and shipping samples back and forth. Like what was the I'm assuming it was a at least had been over a year or two ago. Somebody said, Hey, we're gonna go ahead and do this. But how long did it really take to actually start from concept to finalization? There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. So how do you find the best stories and the best flavors? Well, rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box shipped out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box there featuring a distillery that mixes Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to a rack house whiskey club calm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box.

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Whiskey Quickie: Jack Daniel's Single Barrel Heritage 2019 Edition

Tue, 19 May 2020 10:30:00 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Jack Daniel's Single Barrel Heritage 2019 Edition. This non-age stated whiskey is 100 proof and $70 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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253 - OKI Relaunch, Craft Bourbon Bust, and Return of Age Stated Knob Creek on Bourbon Community Roundtable #44

Thu, 14 May 2020 10:30:06 GMT

Today’s podcast featuring the roundtable talks about the controversial relaunch of the OKI brand. We examine the potential motivating factors behind New Riff selling the label and if it’s a pure money grab by the new company that owns it. We then look at the current landscape of craft distillers and if they will survive the COVID-19 conditions as over 43% of all craft distillery workers have now been laid off or furloughed. Lastly, we see an age statement return to Knob Creek.

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You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about buying whiskey for cheap during the pandemic.
OKI is being relaunched with new ownership. Why would New Riff do this and is it a money grab?
118 craft distillers surveyed recently, 42% said they do not believe they will able to stay in business for more than three months with COVID-19. Is the craft boom going to bust?
The return of 12 and 9 year Knob Creek. What does this mean for private barrel selections?
Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Nick from BreakingBourbon.com , Brian from sippncorn.com, and Kerry from Subourbia for joining.

Support this Podcast on Patreon

0:00 There's two things you can count on on the roundtable. That's I'm gonna be here and that my Internet's gonna go out.

0:17 Welcome back because it's Episode 253 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. And on our news this week, we selected a barrel of wheat whiskey from old elk. But we're also joined by special guest and master distiller Greg Metz, you might recall back from Episode 154, because he was also the previous master distiller for that big factory in Indiana we call MGP virtual barrel picks, they might be the new normal for a while, so we're looking forward to bringing more of those to you via live streams. So make sure that you are subscribed to our YouTube channel, so you don't miss a single one of them. Now onto the news. Will it distilleries master distiller drew Cole's Veen has been named a finalist for the coveted James Beard award.

1:00 Award for Outstanding wine, beer or spirits producer. The James Beard Foundation awards honor the best in food dining from cookbooks and rising shifts to the best restaurants and of course distilleries in the US. Time magazine even called it the Oscars of the food world. Drew Colvin first joined Willett distillery back in 2003. And overtime, he's developed mash bills that extend the company's bourbon and rye portfolio, which earned him for semi finalists nominations for the James Beard award. However, this is the first year that he's actually been named a finalist. So hats off to drew congratulations and awesome work on the recognition. The winners for the James Beard awards will be announced on September 25.

1:42 The 2020 release of the mixers 10 year old single barrel Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey will go on sale this may of 2020 it is 94.4 proof and it will sell for suggested retail price for around $130 in the US new bottles of larceny barrel proof and alarm

2:00 Craig barrel proof will be coming soon to a shelf near you both bearing the code B five to zero. The letter B means it's the second release of the year. digit five means it was released in the fifth month of the year, which is May. And the last two digits, you guessed it 2020 denote the year. The new batch of Elijah Craig barrel proof will come in at 127.2 which is on the lower end of the spectrum for the line. And the larceny barrel proof is now in its second release when you bottle that 122.2 proof and that's just one point lower than the initial first release, comprised of barrels ranging from six to eight years old. The larceny barrel proof will have a retail price of around $50 whereas the 12 year old Elijah Craig barrel proof will be around $80 you can look for both of these coming to a whiskey quickie in the near future. For those that enjoy the shutter Bock, we're from Texas comes a collaboration with bow Cody's and their new Texas Bach. It is a malt whiskey made from the exact recipe

3:00 shiner Bock beer, utilizing the breweries Nashville and proprietary lager yeast strain, to what they call create that remarkable flavor profile. It was Asian first fill American oak barrels for at least two years and made within Nashville of over 51% malted barley, about conus. Texas Bok will be bottled at 50% ABV and will be priced around $40. It will also be available for sale at the distillery and retailers throughout Texas and Oklahoma for a limited time and keep it on that Texas trailer bourbon. The garrison brothers bourbon distillery out of high Texas is releasing their garrison brothers bowl Maria bourbon. This bourbon is aged for four years in staves that have been dry aged for at least 25 months in the Ozarks. Then the liquid was transferred to a second new American barrel and aged for another year. Of course we all know is re barreling. It is finally bottled for this second release at 115 proof the 2020 bull Maria release

4:00 We'll be around 6000 bottles with a retail price of around $160. Now with more release News, New riff is doing their spring 2020 special release with the new riff back setter bourbon and rye. For this release, new rep really focused on sour mashing process and use the back set from the pizza malted barley in their mashing of their standard bourbon recipe. as they've mentioned, it resulted in a smoking flavor that is hauntingly unique with layers of peat envelopes a creamy spicy bourbon and rye. The back setter to pack will be listed for a total of $99 and 98 cents. And for today's podcast, we're featuring the roundtable it's another yet potentially controversial topic where we talk about the relaunch of the okay AI brand and we examine some of the motivating factors behind it not only just from New Roof but from the new owners as well. We then take a look at the current landscape of craft distilleries and if they will survive the current COVID-19

5:00 conditions. As a personal note, please make sure you're going out there and you're supporting your craft distillers. You're going to hear more about it in the podcast today. And lastly, we also talk about the return of H statements that we're seeing on a brand of knob Creek. We're all excited to see that now as well. Joe from barrel bourbon who wants you to know that it's gotten a whole lot easier to get their unique cash drink whiskies from around the world, just visit barrel bourbon.com and you can click the Buy Now button bourbon to your door. It's as easy as that. Up next is Fred minich with above the char, so continue to stay safe, and we'll see you out there soon. Cheers, everyone.

5:40 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char. This is not going to be a pleasant above the char if you're someone who is eagerly waiting for the prices to drop because of the pandemic. Some time ago, I was having a conversation with somebody and I saw it also on Facebook and Twitter. This is a considered

6:00 A theme amongst people in the bourbon community talking about how they cannot wait for the bourbon to drop in price to take advantage of the pandemic. I thought to myself at the time, you know, it's it's not a very nice thing to think because if we drop in price, that means people are going to lose their jobs. That means businesses are going to be going bankrupt. That means the bourbon boom that we've known that's kind of helped support this podcast and other cottage industries such as Mint Julep tubers, and r&r limousine Pegasus,

6:38 such as the travel industry that has become Kentucky bourbon trail. That means if all those prices start dropping, and all those wholesale barrels go out on the market for far less than they were, oh boy, yeah, you can maybe get a 160 $5 bourbon for something like 40 bucks, but you know what, and also means somebody can't feed their face.

7:00 Family, that means somebody is going to be out of work that means that the industry that we have known and love that has been thriving and growing is on its way to a major, major decline. But when I first saw that I was just kind of just kind of like ignored it and kind of moved on. And then people like jack rose and silver dollar started putting up their products for sale out of survival. And I was like, wow,

7:29 okay, I get it. We're going to be okay, we're going to be okay. But as many of you know, I am also an active

7:38 an active vintage, you know, buyer and I'm always looking for the market for like, you know, rare gyms. I was having a conversation with somebody

7:48 about a week ago. And I was talking about like, all the lots that are up for sale. And he says, You know what, I'm going to wait just a little bit longer, a little bit longer. When people

8:00 People are much more desperate.

8:03 And I don't know why that bugged me so much, because that is a part of business when you are someone who was looking to buy something you do want to buy when the person is, you know, willing to sell for the least amount. And that just bugged me. And I'm not saying that we should. We should be overpaying for things in the vintage market. But I believe in fair markets, I believe in fair market value. I believe in paying for a rare bottle of dallying bottle and bond.

8:35 I believe paying for what it's actually worth and not waiting for someone to they can't feed their family. I think right now what we have seen in bourbon, to a lesser degree, but what we have seen with this pandemic, we have seen people for who they really are. We have two sides that are constantly bickering and fighting over how we should deal with this and blaming one another all the time. And then you have the

9:00 Majority of America right there in the middle trying to figure out what to do. And it seems we also have those who cannot wait for you to hit rock bottom so they can buy up your collections. So, if that's you, or if you know someone like that, I asked you to please not be that way to change your mind to think of this as like a moment of a human just being human. If somebody comes to you, you know, for you to buy their collection, or to buy a bottle, you know, even if it's out, you know, encourage them to do illegally, of course, but be fair about it. Be fair about it, because you don't know what that money can mean to that person's family.

9:48 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char during this pandemic, hit me up on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram, just search for my name, Fred MiniK. Cheers.

10:04 Hey everybody and welcome to the 44th recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. We've got a lot of people joining us live tonight as we discuss a good popery of What's New in bourbon news. And thankfully, we won't have to talk much about COVID because that really hasn't really impacted much in the bourbon world. Everything is just kind of status quo. There's a few hints of releases coming out however, I think it's actually a good thing that hasn't happened because it keeps people away from going out and running and chasing bourbon right now in a time when you shouldn't be probably doing that. So everybody's kind of being a little safe. Ryan has your purchasing habits for bourbon decrease now? Yeah, all my funds have allocated towards to go margaritas swirl Margarita.

10:51 We do those carry out Margarita is like three times a week. It's like when we first started they would just give you the Margarita was in a straw and you're like, Oh well, you know

11:00 I guess I'd have in the car on the way home and then and then then they went to we can't give you a straw and you're like, Okay, so I start bringing out straws. And then they went to you have to order an appetizer when you get it. So now it's a, which is fine. So just get the chips and walk with it. But the swirl Margarita mojitos if you're in mobile, excellent. There you go. So that's what you've been spending your money on. I actually bought my first bottle in a while today I saw I went to my local store to go and buy some things. Oddly enough, I had to get more tequila because we are running low because of margaritas and such and considering we just kind of had, you know, Taco Tuesday and everything like that. And, you know, cinco demayo. So I think the one thing that I did buy was the the makers 101 that new like fancy box. So look for that in a whiskey quickie coming soon at some point when we can Yeah, exactly. So let's go ahead and let's, let's kick it off tonight because we've got a lot of good topics as we start diving into this. And so I'm gonna go with the person that that

12:00 In the middle towards the bottom you start with Brian Harris sipping corn everybody where you blog and then let's start with a fun fun question night indeed believe in ghosts yes I absolutely believe in ghosts and maybe I'll write a there's some whiskey blogs that I might need to do on on ghosts but they're they're true find me at sip and corn mostly on Twitter also Facebook and Instagram and online the the website is sip and corn calm you can also find it at bourbon justice calm. Thanks for having me again guess of course. And let's go to our good friend Carrie over here Carrie. How's it going? Good. Thanks guys for bringing me in tonight. Carrie from suburbia calm. It's up to you our bi a. You can find me on Twitter at bourbon underscore gamer and Instagram at suburbia. And yes, I absolutely believe in ghosts. And sometime when we're off on a tangent, I'll tell you all about the stories growing up in a house in Atlanta, that was definitely haunted.

13:00 Okay, well, I'm sitting on pins and needles can't wait.

13:05 Call me later, right? Yeah.

13:07 All right, Nick, your turn. Hey, everybody. Glad to see everybody tonight. I'm Nick one of three founders of breaking bourbon. Find us online at breaking bourbon calm and check us out on social media. All at breaking bourbon. We're on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Patreon and now, tick tock so throwing up some videos up there too. And you gave in. I'ma be like, yeah, I joined you guys. We joined you guys, but I guess I'll burst the bubble here. I'm not a believer in ghosts myself. I like a good ghost story. But that's about as far as I go. So all right, Blake, you're up, buddy. All right. I'm Blake from burner and toolbox calm. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, that's Bo you are Bo n r and then seal boxes. S e lb a CH

14:00 And I'm actually you know, let's see. Where's the vote Ed? I don't know for split but I'm with Nick on this one. Yeah, that can't can't go down that goes throughout. You know, maybe it was too many like, corny tours as a kid through St. Augustine, Florida, which is about 30 minutes from us that that did be in But no, if, you know, they've made 10,000 TLC and discovery show TV shows about it, they still can't track it down it goes, I'm gonna go ahead and say they don't exist. So

14:31 few more of these Bourbons, so and you never Yeah, you're right. It doesn't exist, but I can go to Instagram and see that it does exist. So that's

14:41 20 says the truth is out there. Ryan, did you believe in ghosts? Uh, sure. I don't know. Yes, Ghostbusters. Like one of my favorite like movies. So like, I gotta believe in it. You know, I had the whole you know, backpack and like thing you slide out and catch them. So right yeah.

15:00 I'm all for them. I mean, it just kind of makes me wonder if like bourbon and Ecto cooler would be a good combo then. Hey, I'm all for it. I mean even remember Ecto cooler that was like the the with Slimer. Like that was that flavor back in the day? Oh, shit, I was good. All right, so let's kind of move on to our first topic because I think this is one that is a little polarizing. And so this is something that has recently happened is that okay, I the brand that was originally owned by new roof and kind of what put new roof on the map is really kind of recalls they were putting out anywhere between 10 to I think like 14 or 15 year old 36% higher I MGP towards the end of it. We've had Ken Lewis of new riff on the podcast before telling his story about how he bought those barrels when he was still when he owned the party source up in Northern Kentucky. And then he finally found a way to be able to turn that into another business and then sell those as a way to kind of you know, really got

16:00 To get the launching point going for a new roof now what we found out is that the is that new roof has sold off the brand. And it is now being owned by two people. Then it also started the

16:14 blank. We're just about before we started the what were the brands where they started ramus Yes.

16:21 Yeah. What was the other? I don't know. We just we just totally blanked and we're terrible. I'm terrible hosts that I shot.

16:27 volstad except the one. Well, it was there's the Jordan grants George Freeman. I really want I know of offhand, but exactly the MGP burn. Yeah, MPP bought it from them. They got 16 from them. So let's kind of break this down a little bit because the one thing that that I'm kind of looking at this I look at it in the first aspect and I'll kind of throw this out there is why would new riff want to sell? Okay, I Well, I mean, I think that you know, they've kind of made it clear that they want to be all about the district.

17:00 They waited those four years. Okay, I served this purpose. So why not cash in on it? You know, I don't know what the you know usually go on like a base of

17:11 sales multiples and that kind of thing for a brand. So this is probably a little bit different, but we talked about it a little before of, it's kinda like the black Maple Hill, you know, black Maple Hill was this old brand. That

17:24 I guess was it originally with kbd? Or will it in a, you know, the people out of California bought it and it dropped out of quality? Then it moved to Oregon in. I can't tell you how many people say, Hey, I found a bottle of black Maple Hill and it's like, well, is it in a short squat model? Because you're not going to want to drink it for 100 bucks. Right? But that but that business model works, you know, people they've heard about this brand, it's got a little clout in the community.

17:51 So why don't I go ahead and and, you know, put some more bourbon in it. But I get that i think i think my my question is

18:00 Why would why would new ref and why would Ken Lewis actually want to get rid of something like they had something for so long it was it was successful. There's nothing that said they couldn't revive it years down the road. Why would they just take it and sell it to somebody else like it? That's one part that I'm still trying to figure out how to understand here. So I think they I think originally actually dug up I was looking around at websites actually dug up a website that's that's still out there. And it's new riff I think their old website I'm going to share it up here on on YouTube but it's got a whole kind of page dedicated Okay, I I'm not sure this is supposed to still be up or not on the web. But you know, I almost feel like they've kind of at this point realized their success with new roof is so strong that that idea of ever going back that okay, I brand as part of new roof. Maybe they've just gotten to the point where they said we just we just don't need it. That's not part of the vision anymore. You know, the idea was it was always going to be a short term brand.

19:00 I think but I get it, you kind of hold in your back pocket just in case you know, 10 years 15 years down the road, you may want to reintroduce it. It's almost as if now they're looking saying you know what, we're not going to do anything with it. We still like the brand if we've got people that are interested in taking that brand to a new height, we don't want it go ahead guys. You guys take it and we're doing our thing over here. So I think it's a lot attributed to numerous success that they've had now in the idea that there they probably don't plan on putting any resource into Okay, I or didn't for a long time and they're saying if somebody else is going to so be it, take it we'll take a little money and be done with it. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, they think about the single barrels that had a lot of success in 2019 and a lot of them were new riff I mean they're they're proud of what they got with good reason. To me you know, think of another example Who else could do this and it's smooth Ambler. It's like smooth Ambler getting rid of old scowl once they have their own distillate. That's that's a bigger scale, I think and that would be really surprising if they ever did that.

20:00 That's the same idea once you're once you're proud of your own distillate and your own product you move toward that and and help keep the lights on by selling a brand did that did okay I ever get distributed outside of Kentucky Ohio and Indiana

20:18 the small that it wasn't much outside was it? I don't think so. I think Yeah, I was like the tri state area was what they had like 50 barrels in total right or it wasn't like there was massive amounts was there dudes a finite number of barrels they started with and that was always the idea was it was just going to fun there next thing you know it's never going to be a brand that continued in it was never going to be a brand new we're going to go try to source more to somehow continue at least that's what the how the story goes. Yeah cuz new is made its way now and it's coming to Georgia. And yeah, I feel I kind of with Brian. On that whole thing. You put your initial investment into that that one company but once you see that you

21:00 your heart and your soul is in the product that you're making and the label that you're proud of. It's like, what's the point of keeping behind? You know, I mean, money speaks at the end of the day, right? So, you know, you make money from selling that label, why not? Yeah. And then the last time we were there, I mean, they got a ton of like, expansion going and building stuff. And it's like, they probably could have used the cash. You know, the capital. I mean, I don't know how lucrative of a deal it was just to sell the brand off. But it might be to to meet some short term cash needs that they need to, you know, keep growing the new roof brand and it's like, Hey, you know, Hell, I can't tell you how many Okay, I bottles I passed on like, just because I was like, I just MGP again, you know, who? Stupid me But uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it probably. I don't know how valuable that brand is really. I mean, it's somewhat noticeable. But I'd say in the grand scheme of thing it's not, you know, that well known of a brand in the grand scheme of things. I mean, we as hobbyists, we know, aka Okay,

22:00 All right, I want to go out and ask 20 people, you know, if they've heard of it, they haven't heard it yet. I can tell you people were like, okay, that, okay, bring it,

22:10 bring it to a big market and see if anyone knows anything about it. And yeah, I don't think they would, I think they're gonna have to put a lot of effort into it to really get the snowball rolling again and take it anywhere from from where it kind of is sitting right now, you know, beyond that, the tightly knit enthusiast market, but I don't think it has that massive, you know, appeal of like other big brands, but it's an easier story to tell of, you know, where it came from, and people kind of, oh, have you heard a new riff and you know, it kind of it. For me, it's just an easier segue for retailers to explain to customers why they're charging $120 per bottle, but yeah, we'll see. And so I kind of want to put a thought in about, you know, the whole sales aspect because I look at this, as let's rewind the clock back like

23:00 I'd say a while ago, you know, when other brands were basically doing mash trading of labels and distilleries to basically stay afloat. And Ryan, you're probably right. Maybe this was something to get a quick cash grab, because who knows in 10 1520 years, if anybody's gonna care about it, but it could also be in 10 2015 years, when people like us for like, holy shit, it's back like, Oh my god, right? Like, we would have like a party about it. This is just kind of like, Oh, this seems a little weird, right? I mean, yeah, it's weird. And it's like, if it's just two guys doing it, and you look at a business venture out of it, like how much do you really think they paid for it? 10,000 20,000 If you really think they paid like $50,000 for this brand. Oh, I was thinking at least 100,000 I was thinking 100 myself too. I was thinking I was I was also thinking New Roof might they might have told this story. You know, these guys might have told a story. This is our plans with it. And that could have been something that the folks at New riff kind of said okay, we're kind of seeing the vision.

24:00 And we're, it's not just about the money, it's about the idea that you're going to do something with this brand that we're never going to do and that we don't want to do, and don't have any plans to do. And that might have been part of it too, because they did talk about kind of retelling that story and, you know, doing some things with this brand to kind of revitalize, which obviously, they need to do. But that may be part of it as well be really interesting to know what was paid for it. Yeah, gosh, I wouldn't think I just couldn't imagine paying more than, like, 25 $30,000 for it, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I just think I think I see. I'm trying to think of like a I'm just trying to think of like percentage of business that limited releases are you know, for for Okay, or anyone and it's not that much and then you're trying to think about the margin you make on that and I'm like, okay, that just doesn't seem like a valuable that much. Like, I wouldn't pay much more than that to to profit off that name, I guess but maybe I don't know. I'm an idiot. So who knows? When they're when the bottles come out and see how expensive they are? Then you'll know how much Yeah, you'll figure it out. Really quick.

25:00 Yeah. And so that kind of like tails and dovetails in the next part because we we look at this from our perspective and our perspective as enthusiasts and also keep this in mind. Nobody gave a shit about Okay, I until the MGP. hype train started. Right, right. I mean, it was around for a while some people were getting some bottles, they were 1213 years old people like that, then all of a sudden the MGP chasers came around, cleared those out, then kept going and moving to the next distillery until every distillery is basically cleared out of this high aged MGP. So one thing that people have to understand is that this will not be the same product as you had before. And if you want it to be that, maybe you should not buy a bottle and wait additional 10 years, and maybe it'll be there because we all know that what's available in the market today that you're going to get from a GP is probably around five years old. If you're lucky, maybe six. And so I guess we we look at this and we think like okay, if you are going to be under new ownership with this, how like what is that price point do you think that you need to be at

26:00 Do you look at this as like a pure speculation of just like, hey, let's just ride the coattails of a brand that was known by a bunch of people in a bourbon community in the tri state area, and then try to make a national brand out of it. But what's that? What's that price point got to be at to be able to do that? And how do you stay competitive against everybody else in the market? Who's pushing MGP? Because you're not you're not you're not unique anymore? Let's keep it to say they're gonna be MGP, though. I mean, oh, you know that? Yes, because it says it in the press release that they are sourcing. 36% high right. MGP to do this brand, they're not steering away from what it was before. Yeah, you gotta be at like $100 or more. I think $40 is a good price point for if you're looking for something that you want to say I want to take it national, I want this to be just about every state or every state. It's somewhat similar to other Bourbons out there, you're going to buy it because the flavor because the label, maybe the story a little bit, but I think $40 is kind of that sweet spot where you're not

27:00 so high that people are just going to ignore it and bite your high enough that they're going to look at it as an elevated brand out there so if they're putting out a $40 bottle and it's hitting everywhere I think with the right marketing behind it and a decent flavor decent age I think they I think they could do it and make it something like like smooth Ambler we're seeing that coming coming back now and that's at that price point. For example, you know if they want to go higher if they want to go into this 70 hundred dollar range they're gonna have to really we've quite a story I mean, think Kentucky owl kind of you know, they're gonna have to source some stuff that we didn't really know was available to source or that was, you know, kind of a surprise to kind of hit those higher numbers or they go above 100 but be interesting to see if they kind of go towards that limited premium side or if they go towards that make it available to everybody side on that lower price. I think you guys underestimate the ridiculousness that people will pay. Yeah, or ridiculousness. Well said I always think of my head.

28:00 Is that heaven store? bourbon. That was that total wine? I think it was like 399 or 499 I'm sure it was sourced from somewhere. Maybe MGP have a bootleg one. Yeah, the one that was like it was like, seven years. It was like 27 years old. No, not that one. It wasn't that old. But it said something like, here's heading included a guitar string from somebody and had a leather bound notebook and and it was 499 and I'm thinking nobody's gonna buy that this is bullshit. And a week later, all three of them were sold out. You know, I think it's, it's, this is the ideal market. If you want to push into you know, marketing bullshit. This is the market for it right now. People are gonna buy what you put out. And all you need to practically do is charge a high price. Yeah. And a fancy bottle. Fancy bottle has got instant prestige and there might not be anything to it. Yet

29:00 Yeah, as the comment is right now just put a horse on the bottle and it's

29:05 that's it. I think this is a mark. It's a perfect mark. Well, you know, Douglas Pendleton put it in the chat. Price dries perception. And that is extremely true in today's market. It's like, well, it's under dollars. It's gotta be better than the bottle. That's $50 Yeah. Why would they only charge 50? If it's worth 100? Yeah, cuz they had to pay $200,000 for the brand, right?

29:30 It just went out and he says the price is double Blake. Yeah, just double. Yeah, I mean, the one thing that I see this and this is just from a pure whiskey perspective, is that we've we've seen this story before. And we've seen and we've tasted this whiskey before. And we know a bunch of different places that are putting out five year MGP 36% high rye, sorry, all it's not ready yet. In my opinion, it's still not there. And I think there's still going to be a lot more time that needs to go into the barrel to actually make this live up to the hype.

30:00 what it was before and so you're gonna have the same exact people that are getting burned by the same products and then it's just gonna be history repeating itself. Yeah. Are y'all ready for the big reveal? It's me and Kenny who bought it?

30:17 totally get it

30:21 opens and it's $1,000 is that is that pursuit release 340

30:27 Yeah, episode

30:29 together. Yeah, we're getting our own boxes that have like hydraulic lifts in it that just like raise it up three inches so you can take it off its pedestal. They're they're holograms of Kenny's tic Tock videos.

30:42 We've got to take the sticker game to the next level, right? We've just had to figure out how to do that to make people really want to know what's what took the sticker game to the next level and is underappreciated is gifted horse. It was a terrible whiskey. But did you know it was Scratch and sniff? Yeah, I don't know if everybody I can't believe you.

31:00 Nobody I can't believe no one else has done that after that because it's such a crazy funny idea to me. I want a bottle just so I can have a scratch and sniff label again, like I don't even care that the whiskey sucks. I want gifted horsetail. man you love orphan barrels, I do like a round table Buffalo Trace for a gifted horse. It's worth $140.

31:23 Get on it, man. Make it happen if you can. Alright, so let's let's kind of move on to the next subject because this one is it's kind of a sore subject. This is definitely dealing with COVID and everything that that's been going on because according to a survey that has been released by the distilled spirits Council of the United States, as well as the American distilling Institute, with a survey of 118 craft distillers they found that two out of three have worried not only about the short term, but also the long term survival of their business. And 42% believe that they will not be able to stay in business for more than three months, and another 21% of worry that they will go out of business for the next three months. And I believe

32:00 We've also said that 43% of all craft distillery workers across the US right now have either been laid off or furloughed. So we look at this right now that we're potentially in the craft boom bust. Now, the the question for you all that I kind of have with this is that in a capitalist sort of mentality and opportunity here, why aren't more big players in this game, trying to swallow up craft distilleries? For dimes on $1 right now?

32:33 Before before y'all Sorry, guys, y'all know a lot about this, but I just have a question do they say? I mean, did they say why? They're struggling because it seems like the spirit tree is booming, right?

32:47 Yeah, local distilleries, they own their yard. So like they really depend on tours and, you know, local events and tourism. You know, I was I was digging into that more to carry because everywhere you're seeing is how

33:00 All sales are up, and you've seen it all over the place, if you're not seeing it on the news, seen it with people, you talk to just your friends and family and so forth. You know, I was looking at that too and started digging around a little bit about that, and kind of found this this whole kind of changing dynamic of this idea that people aren't buying on premise now that they're buying from the online retailers or some of the big brick and mortars you know, for the most part, and that's that hurts. They're basically the these craft distillers or major margin is what they're selling on premise with their bars, the restaurants, the stuff they're selling directly with the bottle, so where they're seeing their profit is basically dried up, even though they might be still selling some of their product. But then a lot of that stuff being bought online is the big name, lower price kind of stuff that people are just, you know, kind of repetitively buying. So all this crap stuffs going to the wayside. And these guys are sitting on a lot of them and insane amounts of debt that they need to service and it's a very short it's really pretty sad. I hope they don't

34:00 Go under to the you know, to the extent that it looks like they could, but it's a very short window for them to either survive this thing or not survive this thing.

34:08 I didn't think about how much is that how much of their revenue is from people coming in and on site? So they make a lot of their profit derivative. Yeah. 30% is a pretty conservative estimate for most craft distilleries have tasting rooms.

34:25 And, you know, they have a bar and that kind of stuff, it could be even higher. And, you know, so all that's just gone out the window. So they're kind of making up with it with hand sanitizer trying to, you know, do what they can into next point. You know, whenever people are buying for a pandemic, they're grabbing, grabbing fodder grabbing. Yeah, I think I think that's a good point. It's like, people are drinking more, but they're not, you know, like one seven fives of like Evan Williams, and that's what they're, you know, that's what most people are grabbing for. They're not going for the higher price craft stuff. And so it's a and do it like

35:00 You know people are buying alcohol but you know, restaurants and bars are like zero. And so they you know, a lot of the tastes like you all said the tasting rooms and visitor centers, you know that these guys depend on or just it's gone from to zero and so and I don't really think they're getting any help either I mean the PPP stuff goes to two employees and a little bit to rent and that's not their expenses I mean they they have a lot of suck sunk and expenses that they're just not really getting anything from the government on here. Yeah, you know, their revenue and they've still got a, you know, fun that Vendome still and their construction costs and everything else there. I mean, it's it's serious. I agree with Matt. Matt's comment there that hand sanitizer production has kind of caught up now. Yeah, yeah. So what do you they don't need to do that anymore, either. Yeah. And they struggle with that, too. A lot of regulations were tricky. A lot of them ended up making it and not even really being able to sell it.

36:00 They just, you know, made it a lot of pro bono. And a lot of cases that really wasn't a moneymaker per se. I think they just got stuck in a place where they didn't really need to produce whiskey and they were trying to help and, you know, trying to keep staff. Yeah, and a lot of these places have a pretty low staff count to, you know, to Brian's point. There's not a lot of people that work in a small craft distillery, usually, a lot of times, it's actually just the owners, maybe that are that are working there. You know, and they're there. A lot of times they have just an incredible amount of debt to service that even in a perfect world when everything's going well. It's a hard business. So you just you just pull out one little piece, you know, it's like a thing of Jenga pull out one piece the whole thing's gonna topple. And it's very, very well could be the piece I'd be curious Blake, what you're seeing on the sealed box side, from the, you know, kind of like the online sales side there and people approaching you from the craft distilleries. I mean, what's kind of been your feel for these folks that you are

37:00 pretty well. Yeah. So a lot of them are, you know, definitely feeling the feeling the effects of it. Most are making it but most are making it we got it. Yeah, no, no, I'm like, What can we send Blake an arrow or something? Like, uh, I think it's I think it's fun for my computer. Oh,

37:20 it's a ghost behind you, Blake. I left the podcast almost two years ago and Blake's internet still stayed the same.

37:30 So true. True. I, you know, I, I would say as much

37:35 as this has been damaging for so many small businesses and restaurants and bars and distilleries, and etc. I kind of feel like maybe we're getting close to good news starting to prevail and hopefully coming out of this thing within a month. I mean, you start to look at at least here in Georgia, we buckled down March 14 is when pretty much everybody

38:00 Went indoors and

38:02 our hospitals are at a very low rate right now. And I'm just hopeful that we can kind of come back out now and support these craft distillers I know that right before everything hit the fan. wilderness trail was distributed here in Georgia. And I kinda was just very curious to see how their sales went. And my local store had bought a couple cases of their they had the weeded the regular bourbon and the the rye. And all of it has to has sold pretty well. He said he's ordered more of it. So hopefully, we can get out of this thing and get back to these craft distillers. This is the one thing that that kind of strikes me a little bit. So I'm sitting here I'm trying to read the chat. And there's some people that are saying like, oh, like, it doesn't matter, like their whiskey sucks. It's too young as to whatever. Like this is the this is the moment this is the movement that we need, unless you want to keep drinking the same whiskey from the same six distilleries for the rest of your life. And I think that

39:00 Blake made a very good point in his presentation that he did at whiskey from home during that that online conference and saying that if you're buying craft whiskey, you're not trying to buy something that is just as good or comparable as the big guys. Instead, what you're doing is you're trying to get something that makes you drink or taste something different, right? Like you're finding either new grains, you're finding new ways that the they you know, they put it like a different age proof or they you know, they did whatever it is different because we all know that if you go to heaven Hill, or you go to a beam, you go to these different places. They've got, you know, like one, two, maybe three or four recipes, and they are cranking out stuff like on that still 24 hours a day. They're not changing. They're not experimenting, right? And so it's it's really hard for you to sit there and try to figure out like, okay, like, I hope your palate or your taste doesn't change over the next 1020 years because that's essentially what we're going to get. And I know it's been a bad rap on a lot of craft distilleries that they get, you know like in this, this, basically

40:00 pigeonholed in this part where they said like, oh, sorry, Your whiskies too young. It's two, three years old. And it's, you know, it doesn't meet my flavor profile. I get it. I'm kind of with you there. But we've got to be able to give them a chance to be able to get to the point here at 5678 910 years old when this whiskey is really going to start being mature and it does taste phenomenal that we've got a lot of options out there as consumers. So yep, yeah.

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Whiskey Quickie: Riverset Rye

Tue, 12 May 2020 10:30:54 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Riverset Rye. This non-age stated rye is 93 proof and $40 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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252 - Distilling in Memphis: Filling Barrels Ten Feet Off of Beale with Alex Castle of Old Dominick Distillery

Thu, 07 May 2020 10:30:48 GMT

We went on a road trip to check out Old Dominick distillery in Memphis, TN. We’re excited to let Alex Castle, Master Distiller at Old Dominick, share the history behind the brand and how it was resurrected. We learn about her time at Wild Turkey and then dive into their current operations and product lines. If you are in the Memphis area, make Old Dominick one of your must-stops so you can check out their incredible facility.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Share a sip of pure Memphis with Old Dominick Distillery. Learn more at OldDominick.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Whiskey from Home.
Tell us about your background. Did you grow up around bourbon?
Talk about your time at UK.
What did you love about working at Alltech?
What happened after graduating?
What was your role at Wild Turkey?
How did you end up at Old Dominick?
Did Old Dominick have an initial vision?
What are honeybells?
How was the transition from Kentucky to Tennessee?
Tell us about the history of the distillery.
How did you decide to launch with the Memphis Toddy?
Talk about the design of the facility.
What was your vision for the still?
What was the inspiration for your recipes?
Tell us about your products and mash bills.
Talk about the barrels.
Why keep the barrel wood regional?
Will it be harder to keep the wood regional as you scale?
Talk about the rooster.
Tell us more about your gin.
What hurdles did you have when opening the distillery?
How have you been received in Memphis?

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Whiskey Quickie: Legent Bourbon

Tue, 05 May 2020 10:30:24 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Legent Bourbon. This non-age stated bourbon is 94 proof and $35 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

251 - Pairing Country Ham with Bourbon Drams with Steve Coomes

Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:30:07 GMT

Bourbon and ham, is that a pairing you would expect? To be honest, neither did I. I’m a sucker for killing a plate of prosciutto at a dinner party, but thanks to our guest Steve Coomes, we’ve discovered a new love for country ham. When done right, the saltiness of the ham just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve as he talks to us about a past life as a pizza judge (yes, a pizza judge!) and then we get into hams. The diet of the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those ham legs you see hanging inside rickhouses. I think it will surprise you. Of course, it wouldn’t be complete if we didn’t do a bourbon and ham pairing. Try not to salivate too much.

Show Partners:

You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Whiskey From Home: WhiskeyFromHome.com

Show Notes:

Bourbon in a Decanter: Does is go bad? https://advancedmixology.com/blogs/art-of-mixology/does-bourbon-go-bad-in-decanter
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Derby.
How did you get into spirits writing?
Tell us about your bourbon and ham parings.
Talk about your culinary background.
How do you judge a pizza?
Tell us about the hams you brought today.
How do you come up with the pairings?
Are the pigs fed a specific diet?
What is the difference in the thickness of country ham and prosciutto.
Tell us about curing.
What sizes do hams come in?
What flavors are you looking for when pairing?
How much does this ham cost?
Where can you buy country ham?
What do you think about hams aging in rickhouses?

0:00 That country ham industry is its own worst enemy, many times and understanding what it needs to do to make itself look on par with Italian cured hams. Yeah. My wife it's charcuterie. She's like, Oh

0:11 yeah, you say it's like oh no, no way. It's like

0:28 Welcome to Episode 251 of bourbon pursuit. I hope you all are hanging in there with your quarantine here, because I know right now, mine's looking pretty Shaggy. I'm due for a haircut. But before I get to the news, I want to tell you once again about whiskey from home with the help of some of the best names in bourbon. We're doing a five and a half hour livestream of whiskey soap entertainment on May 2, starting at 12pm Eastern. So right now go to whiskey from home calm and get your free ticket there sessions on bourbon history. The best Bourbons on the shelf right now. Blind flights how to hunt for great bourbon, a virtual food pairing with Peggy no Stevens and a virtual bourbon tasting with our good friend, Fred MiniK. The shopping list for everything that you need to follow along. Is it whiskey from home calm, so go there. Check it out. It's a free event. So come and spend your Saturday afternoon with us. Now, bourbon into decanter doesn't go bad. This is a question that was asked and answered with extensive research from advanced mixology calm. After you buy a bottle of bourbon, how should it be stored? does it stay preserved for years or even decades have left on open? What about the canning of bourbon? Can it go bad then? Well, it all comes down to aeration, and without giving too much of it away. You can read all the answers to these questions to the link from advanced mixologist calm in our show notes. For today's podcast, we talked about bourbon and ham. Is that a pairing that you would expect? Well, to be honest, neither did I I'm a sucker for killing a whole plate of for shoot, I was at a dinner party. But thanks to our guest, Steve Coombs, I found a new love for country ham. When done, right, the saltiness of the ham, it just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve, as he talks about his past life as a pizza judge, you heard that right up pizza judge, I mean, talk about a dream job. But then we get into hands, the die to the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those hand legs that you see hanging inside of Rick houses. I think it's gonna surprise you. Of course, it wouldn't be complete if we didn't do a bourbon and hand pairing. So try not to salivate too much. All right, don't forget it whiskey from home calm, go register and get your free ticket. If you haven't had a chance yet, go to barrel bourbon.com and you can get cash drink bourbon, whiskey, rye and rum. All delivered direct to your door. Just look for the Buy Now button at the top of the page. All right. Now here we go. Yo, here's Fred minich with above the char.

3:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I'm a little sad right now. I'm actually really, really sad. We've had to cancel bourbon and beyond. I think many of you all know that. But that's the festival that I co created with Danny Wimmer presents and COVID is forcing a lot of cancellations, especially in the music world. What's gonna happen to the Kentucky Derby? No one really knows. But this Saturday would have been my 13 Kentucky Derby in a row to attend. And I'm just sad because that piece of that that moment is gone. It that it's gone. That piece of culture, that piece of celebration. And it's not necessarily about the horses. It's about the gathering of the people the smoking of cigars, a sipping a bourbon, seeing my wife go through, you know, 15 thousand different hats before she chooses one. So many great moments I've had over the years. I want to share one with you. Now, if you followed me you know that I've, I was a guest of the governor last year and I've been a millionaire's row and I've been around the celebrities and all that. And a lot of people be like, that would be that would be the one that would be like the one memory that you would want to take away when you think about your experiences as the from the derby. I've also been a photographer on the derby. I was on the finishing line in 2008 and got some really beautiful photos of a Belle's before she passed away. And yet, that's not it either. Now, my favorite Derby of all time, was when I was in Peggy know Stephens box with with my wife. We were just pregnant. We're just getting out of that first trimester where we could start telling people you know how it is if you've been pregnant? Well, I've never been pregnant. My wife spent pregnant but I say we as in like, you know, family, and you get out of that first trimester and you're so excited to tell people and we're Catholic. So that first step is always like, Alright, who are going to be the godparents? So it was on Derby Day, like, two, three years ago, that we were in Peggy's box and we asked Peggy, if she would be the godmother to our son, Julian. And she cried, said yes, of course. And it was just a magical moment. It was a wonderful celebration. And then I think I lost a couple hundred bucks on the race. But there's no replace in the derby. We can't replace that. That's just a magical, magical moment. If you've ever been, you know what I'm talking about, but we're doing something that is as good as we possibly can present right now. And that's whiskey from home. It is an amazing lineup of bourbon personalities. And I hope you will join us all day Saturday. As we drink bourbon as we talk bourbon, we're going to be streaming across the interwebs. Unlike any time before, this is the first, this is the first time my knowledge that we've ever seen something like this a virtual conference in the bourbon world. And my hat's off to Kenny Coleman. He's just done such a good job, you know, stepping up and getting this thing going. On the back end. I'm trying to get all the streaming stuff set up. And Ryan's going to be making cocktails and you know what, I'm going to try and make them alongside him. So I cannot wait to see how this goes for everybody. And I hope you will join us. It's this Saturday. I'm sure Kenny's already talked about it, and you're going to hear more about it later on. But it's going to be a great time is it going to replace the derby? Nothing can replace that in our hearts. But what it can do is it can help us get us through the fact that we are missing missing the greatest two minutes in sports. So that's this week's above the char. This one came from the heart. If you have a heartfelt story about the Kentucky Derby, hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to my website Fred medic comm and send me an email. I like reading those kinds of stories. Until next week, cheers

7:23 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole team here today we've got bourbon and we've got ham where we talking pigs and bourbon today so this is this is something that I know Ryan and myself we're big barbecue guys, we got our green eggs, you've got your drum, you've got all kinds of things so terrible, but yes, it's a better omen. Yeah. And you know, for me, I love I love charcuterie boards when I go out to restaurants to can't get enough a ham. And I mean you remember we were talking about going to North Carolina you're talking about the gym. Oh, and ham. Is that what it is? Yep.

7:56 Yeah, the Serrano Hamza Oh, the ham on Hello. Yeah.

8:00 hormone

8:00 that's a source that's your jam on or GMO yeah

8:03 Jay Michael Jackson working there.

8:04 It's the jam the jam and ham. cured meats are like you're talking about love language and I used to raise pigs I used to raise pigs so like this is like ham to me is like it's what I grew up with. We used to raise do rocks and Berkshires and everything's kidding

8:21 yeah I had my Linux I knew you're in the hug business you ever notice had their day their pig in the mud? Did everyone pay the pig you know in the mud?

8:28 Yeah, we made them yeah, we literally like I'd had to clean them all the time because they would get it get really bad and we had some we did have some some hampshire's as well. I had like, like one of these really nice prized hampshire's, and the damn thing died when it touched concrete like it was it was a carrier of what they call a stress gene. And one of my big contributions to the hog community is that I donated him to science instead of eating him

9:00 After he died, you get a tax write off for that or something. I

9:04 don't you know what I think we did, but if they actually they've cured they've bred most of that out there.

9:09 Yeah. And you can't eat them unless you cause its death. Right? If it does that on its own, you gotta

9:15 take there's any rules on

9:19 that to show up live to the budget,

9:22 whatever it sounds delicious. So if

9:24 you hit by a car, I think that seeing well we don't want to know how the sausage made, you know, no pun intended.

9:29 Who knows we might get back into that action today and kind of talking about cured meats as well as we go through here. But you've already heard our guests today. So today is our guests. We've got Steve Coombs. Steve is all over the place. He knows about pigs. He knows about bourbon. He's been a writer for bourbon Plus, he's also an author. He's been a contributing writer for bourbon and banter. So Steve, welcome to the show.

9:49 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

9:50 Yeah, so I mean, we kind of talked a little bit there but let's let's kind of talk about some of your your bourbon cred. You know, how did how did you get into actually start writing and kind of Knowing and exploring the spirits world,

10:02 I always call this the confession moment in that I was probably 4748. before somebody got she was the tourism director in Bardstown. And I was down there doing a story for Southern Living magazine, y'all remember Don crystal? Oh, yeah, Don, Don said, we pulled up to heaven Hill. She said, Steve Coombs, you get out of this car right now go inside and do that tasting said you're not going to do an article on my town without tasting some bourbon and believe it or not honest truth, it really clicked that day. It was funny that 92 proof larceny lit my mouth on fire to the point of numbness. And I mean, and now we're drinking barrels, barrel strength, dry, you know, it's no big deal. So I got hooked on it literally just because of the culture. And of course, watching Fred, Fred and I worked many years ago together and seeing what it did for his career and becoming attracted to the characters in the business. My gosh, I mean, I've written about the culinary business for 30 years and never had Have I found such a concentration of friendly characters in one single business? And you especially talking about how rough it was in the wine industry, you know how snobs were in that like you didn't want any more involvement with that the low ego part of this businesses just you know gold for writers don't think yeah,

11:15 I mean the the characters are amazing. I remember that time in your career you You called me I've really how did you get here? How did you do that and all that and I and it for me, this has always been easy because of the of the people and at the time, you were like thinking about, you know, teetering with tequila a little bit. Remember I was and I still love it. But it's a whole country away.

11:38 And here we live in the country of bourbon country, and it's right here and you can drive to barks down to 15 minutes and be interviewing the geniuses in the business or Frankfurt or, you know, Larkspur,

11:49 one of the great things that you've done is that a lot of people come into, into in bourbon and they just, they kind of repeat the same stories. You know, not a lot Have people you know, try to go outside of what's already been done. And you've kind of you've done that. And I've been telling you for a long time that people want to be, you know, learn more about ham and the pairings of it and now you're doing seminars on it and everything. So how did that how did that start? How did you develop this whole new platform that really no one's explored Really? And this ties back to you? Hopefully you remember the answer to this gotta stop this kiss fest over Yeah,

12:27 it is. Yeah, all right

12:30 later, but let me let me say this. he mentored me 15 years ago when we really started he was your supervisor. He said your light just like today? No, I'm kidding.

12:40 I'm totally kidding.

12:41 I was always on time. You were I told him that the company didn't really tolerate that crap and you still ended up military and you just show up on time?

12:47 Yeah, that was that was back when I was still falling a little bit my military code now I'm 10 minutes late to everything cuz I just don't care. Fred. Fred

12:54 called me in July of what was it? 2014. You said that a publisher called Do about doing a book on country ham? That's right. And you said I don't know anything about the subject but I have a feeling I know someone who does. And he called me and he said call the publisher and see if this will work out for you. And I wound up writing that was my is my It was my first book country ham, a southern tradition of hogs salt in smoke, which came out the year after that. And so by then I'd already begun enjoying bourbon and I'm tasting it just like we're gonna taste today. It was late night it was it Believe it or not, sounds so fake, but it's really true is midnight, I was editing the book and sipping it and tasting it with this. Oh my gosh, this works really well together.

13:39 Yeah, it's a match made in heaven.

13:41 Oh, exactly. In and that's really where it kind of clicked. But Jay Denham, who is one of the great cures and Kentucky who's moved back to Cincinnati, had come to me, we're friends. We're talking ham and he said, you know, we should do a big whiskey and hand pairing some time and somehow or another led to the bourbon classic. And we did One with have not had been hell I'm sorry Jim Beam. And it was a hit from then. And ever since I've been doing a lot of these tastings My gosh, we've got six books already this year through March out of town. And it's a lot of fun to spread the gospel of both I mean, pork gets a bad name the United States and this is this is really good stuff that we don't try today. The other other white man and he is really really read me forgot that tagline. Yeah, so horrible. I kinda want to rewind it back to you even a little bit more here. So kind of talk because you were you were a chef previously in your life too, right to kind of talk more about your culinary background. So I my mother was a good Southern cook but never did understand restaurant food until I had to start paying my tuition at St x and my parents said you know, times are a little tight you boys need to get some better jobs if you're gonna keep going to say next pay for it. So I start working and fine dining. And it was the restaurant that really gave Louisville its own restaurant boom was called Casa goes on. It's long since gone. But that was the first place that I tasted really, really good fresh fish, real asparagus, Hollandaise, all these kinds of things. And I realized that was wired for the culinary industry. didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated college and was stuck watching the chef's and thought that looks interesting. I'll try that. I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer, but I was an absolute terrible manual typewriter typist, mine was the last class at St x in 1982 that use true manual typewriters. And the best I ever did was 32 words a minute. And that wasn't gonna fly at a newspaper. About five or so years later, I got a laptop. It was an IT WAS AN NTC multi sink if anybody remembers it, you guys are toddlers

15:43 weighed 11 and a half

15:44 pounds when that one had like a real floppy like the five and a

15:48 half inch floppy? No, not that 123 and a half no hard drive. And that was the first time that I ever discovered that word processing allows you to correct your mistakes and like well maybe I can do this thing after all. And then so I started writing about the rest Strong industry that was 1991 I still do it not nearly as much because of, you know, publications like yours and, and I'm really digging the spirit scene but to be in it this long and have gotten to travel to really neat places in the world, just writing about food has been a treat and I'm in a food town. So it's been a good career. I let me let me add something to this. He was the editor in chief of pizza today. And then he later was the editor, editor of a website called pizza marketplace. And Steve was a god in pizza around the world. And if you think about pizza, it's like its own sounds delicious. Anyway.

16:44 Steve likes too skinny to be like, doing all this food cookies, but

16:47 he would he would write about these like pizza dough throwing contests and it'd be like Italy versus United States or Canada and that was going on when you're there, man. And it's just it was just it was fun. For me from a career perspective, that was the first time I had ever seen anyone cover a beat very uniquely, and that I've never told you this, but the way that you own pizza gave me a lot of like motivation, you know, to, you know, to discover, you know, in that or in the early times in my career to find what I could like your neck hat, find my niche like you did. And like, he was a god and pizza. If you Google Steve Coombs, you know, we put the quotation marks around it, and then pizza, you'll find a lot of his old stuff and it's beautiful. I kind of want to talk about both. I know

17:41 I kind of talk about pizza just for a second. So kind of talk about like, how do you judge a pizza like in your mind when you were going into judge a pizza like what how does that how does that work?

17:50 there? It's It's the last contest that I did for a long time was in Columbus, that client I was telling you about that I had been up there was the North Custom was a minute American pizza contest can't recall but we judge it on crest quality Christmas. You would look at what you know the rim of the crest which at the time is called the corny God or the cornice. And you'd look for the texture of the dough. You judge it on the the flavor of the sauce how it presents itself well with cheese you don't want to slide off. That's a problem. He looked at the ratio of toppings with sauce and crust. And when you look at the marketability of it is this thing really something that would sell in a in a pizza restaurant or do the guy just make it up on his way in and then do you do thumbs up sideways? Thumbs thumbs down? There wasn't there was there were 38 judges in this contest to manage you know, the volume of pizzas that were coming through. So you really did have to have a rigorous pizza quickies now it's a bookies. Yeah, we could Yeah, yeah. So it was it was pretty rigorous judging, and I'd seen a similar system in Italian I'm sorry in Italy, but uh, it's basically based on what you know, making the Italians win. What's their system What style do you prefer? Like?

19:03 Okay, I really do.

19:04 Yeah, me Neapolitan, New York. Go neck and neck. Yeah. And I like that salt mine like a Pete not pizza. Taco foldable floppy.

19:11 Yeah, there seems to be a trend right now of people bashing Chicago style pizza saying it's not really pizza. It's just like a big like a lasagna. Yeah, it's

19:20 Are you in that? Are you No, not at all. That that's it's a derivative of an Italian version of pizza called torta pasqual Lena which means Easter tart or torte. And it was basically you know, the deep dish and they would put another layer of crust over the top and it was it was like kind of like we will roll out a big lasagna for celebratory event. And and that's the way it was treated. It wasn't the Italians don't see pizza as a slice after slice thing. Like we eat it here. I mean, we're committed. These dudes have had an appetizer, some wine, the little bit of pizza, then, you know something afterward. We look at Pizza as a whole meal sometimes our meal. Yeah, no. So

20:01 kind of goes back to that old saying like, any pizza can be a personal pain if you want to try harder. Yeah.

20:06 Yeah, yeah. So

20:09 they would look at that at a pizza that size and say, Man, that's for 10 people. 12 people, you know, and we look at it sometimes they will you get two friends. Yeah.

20:22 All right pizza pursuit come to you in 2021 Yep. All right. So let's let's kind of head and kind of dive in here with with what we have in front of us. So kind of Tell me Tell us a little bit about like what you brought today and variations and why you chose this.

20:34 So we have a couple of hams before us today. And I like to focus on people who use the very breeds that Fred was talking about having raised years ago. Heritage breed hogs because the quality of the meat is higher. The fat is much more present. It's better marbled, there's a better cap like this area here is called and you get a much better balance of flavor and texture. encoding a lot of the things that we talked about with bourbon but only presented in a solid form. I also when I did the book several years ago, I really got to taste a lot of country ham and these specific cures are the one that I ones that I really like to use in presentations. I have found that their meat tastes best with whiskey out of you know many others, partly because of the fat partly because of the complexity that's gained in aging just like bourbon.

21:26 Yeah, I was about to ask like how what what the rigorous process of testing all that was like to be able to figure out exactly what would pair well

21:33 and what no more rigorous and you guys sitting at the bar, just tasting lots of different things and lugging it somewhere in your memory or Notepad. It's just tasting and tasting, tasting and tasting and think it through. It takes it again like bourbon, a little goes a long way you don't need a ton of country hand three ounces, a country hand would give you your full RTA dose of salt, so you don't need much of it. But I've really gotten to where I'm very fond of this first hand nearest us is from the hammer it in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. This is a guy who his name is Bob woods and he's the one that coined my favorite phrase that he used in presentations and he said, Steve, country ham Ain't nothing but hillbilly prosciutto that's what it is. A traditional ham is cured basalt only a country ham is cured with salt and sugar and various other peppers if you like but that's basically the difference

22:26 now these particular pigs you talked about that are worth or they spent a specific diet or they just like you know, in Italy I've seen you know, the swine are fed like a corns only and like massage Do you know? sure that's the procedure department hawks, but they do like to let him get out and free range and did you guys or did you have to keep them in pens or it varied?

22:49 You know, there were some breeds that we would like kind of roam Chester hogs were ones that we would let roam around. You could kind of trust them and they were diggers. They route the hell out They were real readers.

23:02 Very what's rude or mean? Guys? You gotta understand.

23:05 They stay with their nose. I'm gonna say slay

23:07 their noses into the ground to get at grubs and such. Right,

23:09 right. Yeah. So they and they also like to get a nice cool spot to get underneath there. the Berkshires were runners. And so like, if you let them out, there's a pretty good chance that coyote would get it, you know, because they would go out in the woods or something. And they do rocks for really, they were just kind of lazy. They didn't really want to do anything. So even if you open the pin up, they'd be like, yeah, there's a lot out there and I got this water bucket. We're good.

23:35 I love the accent do rocks. Because here in Kentucky me Derek now. Yeah, same spelling,

23:41 just like him. Oh, and and Jim. Oh, well.

23:44 What's fascinating about that is that we would buy hogs from all over the all over the country. You know, because we were competitive. We were showman we were competitive, you know, trying to win jackpot hog shows and stuff. And you go to you we'd go to Illinois, which Illinois had like For a long time, they had like the best genetics for hampshire's and everybody was trying to get a little bit of Hampshire in their in their breeding processes. And they would you would go there you couldn't even understand and they'd say hag, you know, the different enunciations of the breeds? It's fascinating you can it's one of the few kind of light words where you can tell where someone's from, based on how they pronounce breeds. Yeah. And if you look at all they're all most of the of the breeds come from like some kind of European You

24:33 know, when did when you said free range so like, I'm trying to think like a, you know, a cow, like if you have grass fed beef or versus like corn fed corn fed, like much more fatter, like, more flavorful for me anyways, whereas you get grass fed, it's kind of more grainy, kind of earthy kind of flavors, is that do they do the similar things with pigs or?

24:52 Absolutely, I mean, you can you can tell the difference and it just tastes this against some neutral pork sometimes if you cured it, and you do. If we didn't have that diet to begin with, it's not going to influence the meat

25:05 in a thing to that they do with with all animals in, it's very prevalent amongst swine is that they actively add antibiotics because these things are always getting sick. You know, if one of them gets, you know, some kind of flu or some kind of cold, it could wipe out an entire herd or a farrowing house, which has all the piglets in it and you you lose your entire investment so that a lot of these farmers will actively add antibiotics into the feed. And so like when when you hear someone talking about free gain free range or natural or a lot of that means is that they're getting a feed that is not as you know, doped up if you will, and also like they're able to see

25:52 the mo corn thing for you know, hang their hat on that you know, but does it make a difference in the you know, antibiotics versus not any biotics with the meat flavor.

26:01 I've never heard anybody yeah say whether it just always I think it's a no better than I sure

26:07 I think a lot of that also too when you look at this a lot of like ham and sausages is about the processing. So very few people are actually are actually just getting the you know, getting the getting the meat from the hog, you know slicing it and cooking two of them, you know the same way everyone's doing a sauce or they're doing a special cure. It's very it's not like before you can cut you get two steaks, slap it on there, cook it up, and you can tell you know, it's very it's very different with this because much of the art is in the curing and I'm fascinated to me. I'm very fascinated with the art of curing because we go into warehouses and Kentucky, you know, bourbon warehouses like will it and you can see these little, you know, hams just kind of in the rafters. We won't talk about that.

27:00 Alright, we'll see you later. So

27:01 yeah, I want to talk about Yeah, no, I have my opinion on that.

27:05 Well, let's go ahead we'll come back Let's taste I don't know let's let's definitely taste I kind of want you to kind of talk us through, you know what, what we have and like what we're pairing it with. We already talked about what we what we have and then we went on, despite what your brothers

27:16 told you. So what are we left or so let's go with the front one, the one closest to you. This is from the hammer. This is an 18 to 20 month old hand it's called a tin Shuto. So I'm like Fred. I like to hold it up. I like to see the marbling in it. Oh wow, I've never done a efficient Oh wow.

27:33 Can you imagine being do i mean i don't know if I've ever gone to a restaurant and then like I never seen anyone,

27:38 anybody. I don't do that in a restaurant. They bring a light to this and make me a flashlight.

27:42 That smell I mean, I guess like I'm not using

27:44 this particular ham has huge Parmesan cheese note to me, but it also has that very Porky note that barnyard note that I love Parmesan cheese is definitely there on Yeah, for sure. And it's like to lay it right on my tongue.

27:56 I've also I don't think I've ever gone through and like tried to I mean, dude, I'm assuming since you do this and you judge you try to do the palate tasting and trainings like it's the same way you do with a bourbon you're sitting there you're looking at the color you're looking and you're actually smelling it you're nosing it the same way you would do with a whiskey or something like that.

28:12 Believe it or not the way they judge ham contests you don't see the internal part of the ham it's never cut to look at it is in Italy they typically use a horse's cannon bone and they kind of sharpen it down to a point in they stick it into the near the H bone of the ham to see if the thing is properly cured because you know instantly about that aroma that comes out a stick it in the stick through their nose and say yea or nay. And that's one of the criteria for judging here in Kentucky is is that thing properly cured and so you put it in a couple of parts of it the Beavis and Butthead joke in the butt face of the ham. And so they're checking on aroma. They're checking on appearance, how it's trimmed. Typically a country ham is smoked so that The way that is colored is important they don't want they don't want to just super mahogany like Western Kentucky cares will do that sometimes it's not

29:09 a favorable the typical to use mahogany wood for no or they use all different okay oak is really common

29:15 I'm sorry hickory Hickory, Hickory. Okay. So yeah but it's much more superficial than you would think they'll probably palpate it you know smash around some but it's not nearly as intense as you might think. But taste that with the toasted which is on the left you know it's gonna love This is Lauren when she added this guy's like smacking our lips we're gonna do and

29:36 she's always never do that.

29:39 I sound effects

29:40 is if this didn't have enough brown sugar on its own. It's really bumps it up. Andrea Wilson at makers not talk about when we do these pairings we want to compliment, contrast or elevate when we make a pairing. Compliment means they go well together. Contrast means they make each other interesting. Elevate means each makes the other better. And I think this is a

30:05 pairing appearing that elevates so why go with the the toasted on this one? What was the? What was the significance behind that one just

30:13 it's a simple approachable whiskey. I mean, it's it Who doesn't like toasted? It's not my favorite of the mixtures line but I really really like it. And it just pairs well with food. I've paired with a lot of foods and you think you guys can jump in on this with me, but for some reason, their line the mixtures line pairs better than any and I'm thinking that there are two things that are noticeably different from everything else we've done. And that's low barrier entry proof and low proof in the bottle. And for some reason that seems to result in a really good pairing food. I don't know if you've ever thought that through But

30:51 no, I mean, I guess with alcohol overpower. Yeah, I would say that's probably

30:56 but I think everyone's different to you know, some people have you know, burned their power. What's out they need that barrel proof all the time. I wanted to ask you a question about about like the the the the sliced country ham always feels sticker to me then prosciutto and I when I was in I was in Italy and I was at a price Judo place and they had me go up go behind and cut they they let me cut and I used actually did the bone and when I cut they were like you're too thick Get out of here. So it wasn't that thick it was like this but so why why what's the difference between like you know the standards of the thickness?

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32:49 What's the difference between like, you know the standards of the thickness In contrast, I think it's a great question

32:57 in the United States and certainly in the south. In United States where country ham is most prevalent people don't eat it and people I say eat it raw No not yet rots cured it is chemically and physically transformed into a shelf stable product so it's cured it's not raw it My mother was one of many who just abused ham country ham and would cook it to you probably had it Ryan in Barcelona baseball leather consistency and intensify the salt it was just overwhelming absolutely no fun but when I did this book I can't tell you how many people how many cures did not like it like this. They they thought that this is kind of like it with a little red add gravy or whatever and like this is the best expression Yeah, this is the barrel proof barrel strength expression of their product

33:50 or essentially throw it in a sandwich with tomato and you know let us in pickles.

33:54 Well done like well yeah done like that. I've enjoyed it too. It Nancy nuisance place I think I posted a photo A couple days ago of it but yeah Fred This is the shark eatery cut that really shows to me respects the the product and its natural best and did you cut it with I not like you're talking about like off the the hammer itself I'd still be doing it to try to get these things done you got to be an expert or an expert to do that I can do it but I'm slow I have a commercial slicer in my house. Oh

34:24 nice and then I know what I'm getting at Costco next commercials

34:29 I'll help you find one on the on the US market will be a lot better go where one out with a ham

34:33 I got a question after you cut yes or no because it's cured do you have to do anything to like seal it to preserve it or how do you preserve it after you've already cut into it?

34:42 Well, before we started you probably saw me taking it out of those vacuum packages that just do that but

34:47 oh you and I'm talking about the actual whole ham. What do you do with that after?

34:52 I like to break it down into as large sections of muscle as I can both to make it easier to slice But to do is you say get it into a vacuum package and and seal it that way so that the more muscle integrity you have the better it's going to be preserved I can keep them in a refrigerator or a freezer for a long long period of time and they're fine

35:13 What size do these typically come in when say you want to go buy like a hammer

35:17 so a country ham depending on the maker or the cure, I should say starts out at about 20 to 23 pounds green weight is Joe recall that to green that seems to be industry and industry time. And what's that? What's that mean though? It means fresh. Yeah, fresh

35:35 jiggling way so it's basically like trying to buy like an eight ounce filet or an eight ounce steak and then you cook it and then it

35:40 but that's been that's probably been dry aged for a little while so that this this thing was only King you know, 48 hours ago.

35:46 All right then. So remember my role and stray from butter dogs. It was just it was raising them. Put them on a truck and say goodbye. Give me the check. Yeah, once they were done, I was don't name them. I did name a couple of

35:59 yeah But But yeah, they'll they'll shrink to about if they start out at 22. There'll be ready it, you know, at about a year at 17 pounds so they lose. That's their Angel share, you know them losing that moisture to intensify the flavors that are inside the ham and to trigger I'm trying to think of the garden it's an enzymatic reaction that that really makes the meat shelf stable. All that works together and it works together because the place we live just like bourbon is so good here because of our climate. The same thing happens to hams that you know that once you hang them outside and let them be subject to the weather. It's amazing. Now there's not that many places in the world that you can do this.

36:44 Well I've never I've always wanted to get into like curing my own ham or something like that. Because I know a few people and a few different bourbon groups and that's like one of their kind of like side projects or side hobbies assisting

36:55 at 89 guy yeah, he's got some good ones going

36:58 yeah. So with the One

37:00 of those in my refrigerator home All right,

37:02 perfect. So I mean, so talk, I mean, because I don't even know like, even the process of how you would even start doing that, hey, you'd have to require the leg, but be like, what, what's that? What's the next step in that process?

37:13 It's it's pretty crude, frankly, it's, you trim the trim away certain parts of the hand to make it look good. And you rub the hell out of it with carrying salt. You know, I mean, you're sticking in every little nook and cranny because you want to get that salt in there to penetrate to the bone and push the way with and push the water out essentially. As cures would say it's a race to the bone if if, if bacteria gets to the bone of the hand first, you've lost your ham if if salt gets there first you've got a cured ham. And what it does, basically is created by getting the water out it starves the bacteria, that's what they need to thrive. And that's all the salt does is pushes it out. And of course flavors it very deal

37:58 to I just did the second premise. I'm sorry I jumped ahead

38:01 I couldn't I did it too oh my god it's perfect oh my god i mean it was it was funny like going into this you know I have a I have a little bit of I don't want to say a criticism but I have a little bit of that that kind of I hold back a little bit be like oh can you really pair like ham and bourbon together holy shit yeah you can

38:20 say that's so fun about this is to see that happen and people you know the scales fall from their eyes they go really

38:27 you can do this well I mean it's in I think it kind of just gives you a little bit more you know a benefit to hear to say like okay, you were able to show me like for me to sit there and say like, I don't even know where I would go and find a different kinds of handy and start experimenting with around here. But if I did, and I came down here my basement I started pulling, you know, Jefferson's reserve, I started pulling Booker's I pulled you know, whatever, you name it across the line and tried to figure out like, how did these pair I don't really know if I'd be able to do that. So I guess when you're doing this, what are some of those new wants his or flavors in a ham or a bourbon that you're trying to pair with a particular Wang Kenny. I wish I could French it up and give you some fascinating answer. But it is mostly trial and error. But But the key

39:14 attribute that I want from the ham to actually from a country ham is fat content to coat the palette and smoke a little bit of smoke in there. Salt is everywhere it doesn't matter the to AI know how to cut the the hand correctly so choose correctly. So really it's it's fat. And one of the virtues of a whiskey that pairs well is that it cleanses the palate. Yeah, and and this this so what we tasted here just a second ago that Fred and Kenny cheated on wisely. was a 24 month old Broadbent country ham. Yeah, broadband done from a Berkshire hog. Yeah, Burke charade. Yeah. And it's just as there's no app That's it. This is one the the the company's won the Kentucky State Fair country ham championship 18 times out of 53 or so.

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Whiskey Quickie: Elijah Craig Barrel Proof A120

Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:30:09 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Elijah Craig Barrel Proof A120. This 12 year old bourbon is 136.6 proof and $60 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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250 - The Future of Bourbon with Eric Gregory, President of the KDA

Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:30:31 GMT

The Kentucky Distillers’ Association does more for bourbon in the US than just Kentucky alone. Eric Gregory, the President of the KDA, has been on both sides of the government trying to put the interests of the distillers and consumers first. We talk about his experience with government lobbying and how he revived the organization. What is the future of bourbon? Are distribution laws changing, what will happen with tariffs, and how will the Bourbon Trail maintain growth?

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Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about up and coming writers.
Tell us about your background.
What was it like at the KDA when you first got this job?
What was your first lobbying experience at the KDA?
Any good horse racing tips?
How do you see bourbon growing?
What do you think of the tariffs?
Tell us about the lobbying process.
How do you keep it bipartisan?
When you hear rumblings of new taxes what do you all do?
Tell us about the steps you have taken from the promotional side of the Kentucky Bourbon Trail and the Kentucky Bourbon Affair?
How many trail visitors did you have the first year?
Talk about partnerships.
What are some of the weirdest requests you've gotten from people?
Are there other states that look to your organization for guidance?
What is your position on the secondary market?
Why do so many people oppose shipping alcohol?
What do you think about bourbon tourism growth in Bardstown vs. Louisville?

0:00 How many visitors Did you have at that time?

0:01 The first year we did the passport in 2007. We had 189 people complete the Kentucky bourbon trail

0:10 and send them a pin.

0:23 Hey, it's Episode 250. Another big number mark and we're glad you're still here with us. And well, it's not much has really been going on because of COVID-19. It's putting a stop on pretty much everything except delivery services. And that's where we start this week's news alcohol delivery app drizzly says it has seen sales explode in the last week of March climbing 537% above the company's expectations. What's more is that 42% of those orders came in from new accounts. The company says that new buyers on the platform have jumped 900% year over year. Same goes for minibar, sales are up 143% new buyer is up 547% and quarters are up 100% with an average order size up 22%. If you haven't had the chance yet, go listen to our podcast back on episode 248 when we had drizzly CEO and founder Corey rellis on the show to talk about his business. A recent study by economics at john Dunham and Associates estimates that America's wine and spirit wholesalers can expect to lose up to $921.4 million in uncollectible or difficult to collect receivables, due to on premise accounts such as restaurants, bars and clubs that have been impacted by the shelter in place environment, and Massachusetts craft distillers are urging their governor to allow permission to deliver spirits. The Massachusetts distillers Alliance asked Massachusetts officials to take steps similar to those made in a handful of other states, such as California, New York. Washington, Kentucky and Virginia to eight independent distillers that are struggling during the current crisis. In a quote by the Alliance's board, they wrote we pay over two and a half times the rate of excise tax per proof gallon paid by brewers. Yet during these challenging times greater latitude is being extended to restaurants, breweries and wineries. While our businesses remain bound by the rules and laws that put us at great financial risk. We have a significant struggle ahead for some good news, and you all are the first to hear it because we are putting on a free online bourbon conference called whiskey from home happening on May 2 2020. Starting at 12 o'clock pm eastern This event will be streamed live through multiple properties with speakers from the entire castle the roundtable but also Peggy knows Stevens. It's bourbon night, the bourbon review, dad's drinking bourbon and more will have live seminars, panels, virtual tastings. The list goes on or incorrect credibly excited to bring more of this great content to you all. And if you can, please share it. Spread the word. Let your bourbon friends know, let your bourbon societies know let your friends that aren't into bourbon and want to get into bourbon know about it and family as well. This is a full five and a half hour jam packed event that will be streamed live, and you will get the chance to network with other people in real time and ask questions through chat. Go to whiskey from home comm and register today for your free ticket. Now for today's podcast, I was super excited to interview our guests. The Kentucky distillers Association does more for bourbon in the US than just Kentucky alone. Eric Gregory, the president of the KDA has been on both sides of the government trying to put the interest of the distillers and the consumers First, we talked about his experience with government lobbying and how it led him to reviving an organization that was struggling. He's maneuvered the KDA into a model that other states can follow. So we discuss what the future of bourbon looks like. Where the laws changing with the regulation of distribution? What's gonna happen with the tariffs and how will the bourbon trail maintain its current pace of growth? All right now Don't forget it. Whiskey from home.com go register now to get your free ticket. I also talked to Joe from barrel bourbon this week and he has a special message he wants me to share that will lift your spirits. You can now buy barrel craft spirits products and have them shipped right to your door. Just visit barrel bourbon.com from the comfort of your home and click Buy now. Alright, here's Fred MiniK with above the char

4:37 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Kyle man or at bourbon numbers on Twitter. He writes nothing better than expanding my whiskey perspective. Are there any up and coming writers in bourbon that deserve the above the char spotlight? Or are there any underrated sites we should add to our family favorites. Thanks. Listen, there's nothing I like more than promoting good writing and a perspective that is different than mine. Listen, I am a big, big fan of the cocktail walk. Now I as you know, I am a big rum head. So I would I would get you to start with the cocktail wonk. That's Matt Patrick. He actually writes for me at bourbon plus, he writes the vintage column and that is a writer, you need to check out he wrote the book, The Tiki minimalist. So that is a great book. He's a great guy. And if you're wanting to learn more about another spirit, rum is the one I would recommend going to of course, I wrote a book called rum curious and Matt edited that for me. So I'm a big fan of Matt and everything that he does for the rum community. After that, I would say if you're not already following him, whiskey jug is a young up and coming writer. He's been at the game for Little bit of Joshua Peters is a. He reminds me a lot of myself about 10 years ago when I was out there kind of investigating and trying to break news in the whiskey circuit. he's a he's a very good, he's a he's a very good no bullshit kind of writer. So I'm a big fan of what Joshua Peters is doing. I think he's got he's got a bright future ahead of him. And I also wanted to ask you to go and check out the classics, the writers who are no longer with us. Gary Reagan wrote the book of bourbon, probably one of the one of my heroes in the, in the bourbon world. He because he kind of came at bourbon in a very similar fashion, as I did, but he was a bit before his time, and he broke into like, he broke away from bourbon a little bit and made his own bitters and kind of got a little bit more into the cocktail movement. And then you have the greatest whiskey writer of all time, in my opinion. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, the guy with the glove and the jacket and the weird stuff, I'm talking about Michael Jackson, the beer, the beer critic and whiskey writer. His words just flew off the page. And we're just so beautiful. So check those writers out. I'm a big fan of all of them. And I think they can all add to your perspective. But at the end of the day, it's about whiskey is about an experience for you. While the writers, the bloggers, THE podcasts, were all about bringing the information. We're all about trying to explore this community with you. At the end of the day, it's about you, and what's in your glass what you like, and what conversation Do you like to have around whiskey? So thank you for the question, Kyle man or at bourbon numbers on Twitter. Now that came in on April 4, when I asked people to send me their ideas for above the char. I love getting a good idea. So hit me up on Twitter. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to Fred medic comm and send me your idea. But that's this week's above the char until next week. Cheers.

8:15 Welcome back to an episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Fred on the road today down in Frankfort. The you know, it's always funny. There's always a good joke that says How do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky? Is it Louisville or Lewisville? And they're like, Nope, it's Frankfort.

8:30 Yeah. You know, hopefully our guest today is part of a campaign to move it to Louisville, you know,

8:35 oh, well, I mean, they just got this new place that we're sitting and that is true.

8:38 That is true. Well, so this is where at the headquarters of the Kentucky distillers Association. And you know, 15 years ago, these guys could not get a meeting with a lot of the legislators. Now one of the first calls a new governor makes is to the KDA because bourbon is political capital and I believe that the Kentucky distillers association is the most powerful lobby in Kentucky. And that was confirmed to me by the Senate Majority Leader, David Thayer. I asked him, I was like, hey, how powerful is the KDA? They're like, and there's really not anyone more powerful right now. I mean,

9:15 is it basically coming from all the taxes from? Well, like it's fun and back in the mistake, let's take a look at what bourbon has

9:21 done for the state. It's really one of the only good conversations that people can have when they're talking about Kentucky you got the derby but the horse industry has been falling for for a while. I mean, it's that's a signature industry and it's it's been hurting. Yeah, getting the gambling, you know, they're trying to bring it in, but Ryan keeps getting denied. And the coal industry is turned to us. Sadly, I mean, it's not. If you look at Eastern Kentucky, it's hurting. And bourbon is the one thing that's kind of carrying the state forward. And one of the reasons why is because of the man we have sitting here and what the KDA has done for the last 10 years. In 2009 you know, when there was a new sales tax Taxes coming in. They protested. And they poured whiskey on the state capitol steps in the way of their protests. And they've been every single year, they have been peeling away ridiculous laws county by county and in the state and in town by town. And that's why we're able to like have a sip of bourbon while you visit a distillery a mean people don't realize that it wasn't that long ago that we didn't have tours, these guys created the Kentucky bourbon trail. So that is why everybody who's listening to this should be thankful that we have someone like this who has their interests at heart fighting for them in the bourbon industry.

10:44 In Frankfort. Yeah, there's a there's a lot to go over today. And with all that, I mean, taxes, tariffs, you name it. So we'll we'll get to a little bit of that. But you know, we'll first introduce our guests. So today on the show, we have Eric Gregory Eric is the president of the Kentucky distillers Association better known as the KDA. So Eric, welcome to the show.

11:00 Well, thank you, you, you guys are making me blush here. So thank you for the kind words. And I've got to say, we obviously couldn't do this without strong support from our membership. So let me lead off with that we appreciate and value all of our members. And they say guess before

11:15 we before we kind of dive into the KDA in the membership and really what the key days mission is like, let's kind of talk about you real quick. Like, where's where's your background? Where'd you come from? Did you I mean, were you part of, you know, moonshine and you said you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and make this legal and get off

11:31 get into business. I this I liked where you were moonshiners?

11:33 No, no, no, no, I grew up in the cornfields of Western Kentucky. My parents ran a grocery store. My dad was a huge Maker's Mark fan and my mom like ofits and in the 1970s I mean, I could still you know, see in my mind's eye my dad coming home every day from work, boring him little makers and in a glass with one cue, my mom Love ofits and some sprite or some ginger ale and then go on the back porch and sit and that was their time and they talk about their day and have a drink. And so it was just always surveillant in and in our household. So no, really just, I'm the luckiest sob in the world. I started my career many people know as a reporter, with the Lexington Herald Leader newspaper, spent eight or nine years there, immigrated to Hawaii for a couple of years and worked at the Honolulu advertiser. Oh my God, why would you come back here that everybody asked me, you know, how crazy are you? So have you ever lived in Hawaii? It's a great place to visit but it's really really expensive. And it's pretty far away from family. And, you know, once you get over there and you realize that everything that you love deer in the world, to me was in Kentucky and not only my family, my wife's family, but I'm a huge Cincinnati Reds fan. I love Keeneland I love the horses. I love Berman. I love UK basketball and they just want a championship without me and Kentucky and things and the tug of home really starts kind of, you know, getting pretty strong. So since those

13:14 those you'd be late night tip offs, right, I mean, if you're sitting now I

13:18 will do a six hour time difference. I'm sitting there having lunch, you know, at the local bar. And in watching the games that was kind of kind of crazy. But move back to Kentucky work for the paper again for a couple of years, went into political consulting. After that one of my jobs in the newspaper was covering the state legislature and back then the limit every two years. For 60 days. A happy channel used to say that he wished the legislature met every 60 years for two days instead of every two to two years for 60 days. So I covered them and I kind of had the political bug a little bit so when political consulting and public relations running campaigns in Kentucky, Indiana and Tennessee That led to one of my clients was the electric power cooperatives and doing lobbying and things for them and they ended up hiring me as their GM lovers manager. So I spent almost eight years working here in Frankfurt is their contract lobbyist, and, and September of 2007, I got a call from one of my best friends. He said, your dream job just opened up. And I said, What's that? He said, the president of the Kentucky distillers Association, he said they want somebody with a media background check. They want somebody with public affairs, government affairs background check. And they want somebody with lobbying experience to check and I love their product. So check that check. But in a resume, three and a half month interview process, Oh, wow. And they they offered me the job on December 7. And it's funny because they asked me in my last interview, how long do you think you'd stay at KDA Acid Are you kidding me This is like the best job in the Commonwealth outside of UK basketball coach you know where President a church on downs or something like that you I said I'm here as long as you'll have me You can drag my cold dead people body out of that chair someday but but we haven't slowed down since it since taking over it is been an amazing run so far

15:18 I kind of want to kind of want to give a little bit of a historical perspective here about the KDA. At this juncture Go for it. It was not really an organization that was known for doing anything or getting anything done. And no offense to interior history, but they didn't do anything. You know, other than like some some efforts in the 1800s and the 1950s. They were mostly just kind of a drinking club of the distillers getting together and they just, they just let things be dictated to them. And I'm curious because everything changed when Eric took office. And you know, Bill Samuels, Jr, who's the longtime Maker's Mark Chairman, has told me many, many, many times is that A lot of the growth of bourbon is because of this man and his leadership for the KDA. So I'm curious, you get the job, what are those first 40 days? Like, what are you assessing? And how are you? What are you looking at?

16:13 Well, it's funny, because the job description in those conversations, they were saying things like, you know, we'd like you to, you know, can you promote this bourbon trail thing we've got going on and, and I went into one of the the meetings and the interviews, and the New York Times had just done a front page travel section feature on the Kentucky bourbon trail, and actually held it up at the at the interview and said, What did y'all do to get this? And they literally said, Well, I don't know a reporter just showed up one day and like, you're getting front page travel sections in the New York Times without drying. You know, you don't know what you've got here. This is amazing. So, yeah, that first 40 days was really transitioning. My predecessor, a great man senator, former state senator Daniel out of Springfield have I don't think is enough credit back in the 70s and 80s when he was a state senator, he really worked hard to keep the ad valorem barrel tax issue from just exploding and driving a lot of distillers and those aging warehouses that Sandy out of Kentucky. And really, you know, he was running the KDA out of his law office in Springfield. And most people don't know that Katie went part time in the 1980s Oh wow. Because bourbon you know, had taken it on the chin and most people had written it off as Matt Shapiro said to the great liquor store in this guy and there was not much you're right for the KDA to do so. He You know, he but Ed for saw the the bourbon revolution coming and the Kentucky bourbon trail picking up speed and said you need a full time staff again. And so that's that's where I came in. So yeah, that first 31st 3040 days was really quite frankly kind of relaunching the association from scratch. We had to find an office in in Frankfort. We moved our operations here from here was running it out to get him his law office in Springfield, Washington County, find an office. After three or four months, I was allowed to hire an executive assistant and just got thrown into a legislative session, you know, with no idea. We need to come up with priorities. And you know, just really, like you said, start to get the KDA build an image bank among the legislators that we're here and we're lobbying and we're not asleep at the wheel anymore,

18:28 quite frankly. Can you remember that that first lobbying experience you did for the KDA?

18:33 Oh, yeah. They started talking about tax raising taxes in 2008. And myself and the wholesalers Association, and the retailers all went in and started talking to, to the legislators because they had just raised our taxes in 2005, wholesale taxes went from 9% to 11%. So we went in and say, Look, as you just, you know, raise our taxes a couple years ago. You're Gonna do it again and we fought it back that year and 2008 but then it came, you know crashing down upon us is very mentioned in 2009. But, again, I was doing all this I'm a bourbon geek. First of all, I'm a longtime bourbon geek. I'm one of the people that stood in line and you know, outside of liquor barn waiting for the different wax colored bottles and whenever bill Samuels I was one I am one of the first before I took this job, I was one of the first bourbon ambassadors at Maker's Mark. I worked my way through college at a liquor store right before Keeneland All right, what bottles were you stashing away back? at you know, we hidden makers gold that was really about the height of bourbon back then, but I remember vividly when we got the first bottles of Blanton's in the liquor store, and they were $35 and we were like Who the hell in their right minds gonna pay $35 for about a bourbon you get makers for 10 over here, right you know and Because we were the last liquor store before Keeneland in the airport, Toyota had just opened up and all the Japanese executives would stop at our liquor store and stock up on bourbon that before they got on the plane to take back home, and they fell in love with blends, and they love the bottle and the horse on top of the bottle. And so every Friday night, when they were making their rounds back to the airport to go home, there was a line of camrys waiting at the draft through and I knew I had to have cases in cases of Blanton's there and I would just go out and load them in the back of the car and they hand me over the cash and go so is more and more of the small batch really the bean products, the small batch selections, the you know the the knobs and things like that as those started rolling out. I had to really become more knowledgeable about what was coming out for our customers at the time. And so my friends all kind of, you know, kidding me about them being the bourbon geek and in teaching about that. So that's awesome. It really

20:58 does run through your veins.

21:00 You know and again and I got a lot of great tips track tips you know from the trackers coming in I think between that and you know that kind of kept me in school paid for for

21:12 me people can say that they made their way through college just like having a good few bets here and there right?

21:18 Especially my bets I guess what's your percentage on on betting?

21:23 I do. I don't do it anymore. You know when you've got young children Fred so once you your children start growing up and I've got you know, I'm putting my first into college later this year and then my son who is getting ready to turn 16 I got to get a car for him and everything else. My sister works at Keeneland and so you know there every now and then I'll get her to place a bet for me, but, boy, my bidding has gone down exponentially is a head start.

21:55 And he said a more attention and he's like winning by that by that.

21:58 Yeah, what's the best bet is Keep your money in your pocket, right? Yeah,

22:00 exactly as I'd say, if you do have a good horse racing tip, what would it be? Oh, wow, you are gonna go bet.

22:08 You know, I'd probably have to have a form with me, you know, to answer that question. Again, I really used to study that form. And there was a group of us former reporters who are now lobbyists and in everything up here who would hit kealan all the time. So I'm big on Kentucky born and bred, you know, I do get a lot of great tips from from my sister who sees them come through as yearlings, you know, in the Keeneland sales and stuff like that. But mainly, I look at bloodlines, you know, a when a family coming down the form the first thing I'll do is start circling but bloodline so that know that that'll be a good, you know, and then you get to look at, you know, how long it is. And if they're closer. I mean, there's just, I don't know,

22:54 that's a that's a good one. It's nice.

22:56 The Kentucky way, right. Yeah.

22:58 My dad's tip, he said Always circle, the ones that were the owner and the trainer are the same person because he was like they put a little bit more effort into that that horse. Right. That's a good point. That's, that's that's his little tip. But yeah, I like to go ahead and try to run with it again, you're still gambling at the end of the day. So let's go ahead and kind of want to shift gears a little bit and kind of talk about the growth of bourbon and kind of really, where have you seen it? And kind of, you know, you've been a pretty instrumental part of this. And so a few months ago, there was a press release that came out about now that there are more barrels of spirits aging Kentucky than there are people, twice as many, twice as many barrels twice as many. You're right, twice as many. Yeah. So kind of talk about like, Where, where do you kind of see the evolution of this going? And like, do we expect three x four x now coming here in the next two, three years?

23:44 A short answer? Yes. I'm typically pretty optimistic about that. I guess the biggest challenge that we faced are the tariffs, the retaliatory tariffs that are put on us. Because you know, everybody asks y'all, you know, what's feeling The bourbon revolutionary thing and we all know, you know, the rise, the cocktail culture, the madman effect. I think bourbon tourism has been has played a big part of that maybe a bigger part and most people understand the fact that we're just putting out some of the best juice that the Commonwealth has ever delivered, again is good. But really the opening of the global markets to me has been one of the if not the driving factor in the growth of Kentucky bourbon, because the I don't think it's any coincidence that back in the mid 1990s, when we had NAFTA and the EU treaties, that's when you start to see the spike in production, and the you know, the growing global thirst, but because we're fine, we were finally on a level playing field with our friends in the scotch industry who've had a 600 year head start on us. So, yes, you know, we have seen bourbon growth exponentially in the past five years. We're currently in the middle of a $2.3 billion capital investment spree. And most of that is Pre production for that, for that global market. We've you know, especially to the EU, you know, in the past three to four years, you're looking at 20 to 30%, even I think two years ago was 43% growth every single year to the EU market. And so that's when we got the call 18 months ago that the tariffs were starting to be used as pawns in a trade war that none of us saw coming. My first reaction was damn we made it we're being used as pawns in a trade war, then that was that was oh my god. Now we're really, you know, what are we going to do now? I really do believe that. You're going to continue to see growth and a lot of people ask us after that press release came out, you know, because not only do we have more than 9 million barrels aging right now in Kentucky. We filled 2 million barrels for the first time in the modern era of Kentucky bourbon in 52 years. And you know, we'll we thought the tariffs are hurting wires. Are you feeling that many barrels and begin the blessing and the curse of Kentucky bourbon is you can't make it overnight. So administration's change, you know, you're looking six, eight years out, hopefully this issue would be settled. But, you know, if the EU market which is almost half of all of Kentucky's whiskey exports, if that continues to escalate, as it has with the new tariffs on scotch whiskey, then you know, to me, that's a game changer. You know, it's, it's something that could really have long term effects if we don't get this resolved pretty soon.

26:35 And you're you're pretty knowledgeable person on this particular subject. And there is people that talk about this all the time. But when it talks about tariffs, they talk about exports, and they have this very narrow minded view and they're like, that's fine. More bourbon here in America. kind of tell people maybe they I don't believe that's right, but kind of give your kind of explanation rationale on that.

26:57 Yeah, well

27:00 Well tariffs or taxes First of all, and in we'd like to say there are no winners in a trade war. You know, there's no really good way out of this because what most people don't understand is when bourbon took a nosedive most of the bigger distilleries diversify their portfolio so they own a scotch whiskey distillery or an Irish Whiskey distillery, a Canadian whiskey distillery. Tequila distillery. And so that's when you saw the tariffs, you know, enacted back, you know, it wasn't just you. It was Canada and Mexico, and other places as well. A company like brown Forman or Jim Beam that owns multiple distilleries across the world. They're not only taking a hit on the retaliatory tariffs on Kentucky bourbon. They're also taking a hit now on scotch whiskey and Canadian whiskey and Irish whiskey and things like that.

27:50 So they're getting both ends of it. Yeah,

27:52 you know, and so they're taking five punches through the gut right away. So you know, that's not good from an industry standpoint because You're, you know, that that for destroy a purely business standpoint, it's hurting business, then we have, as an industry have done so much over the last generation to convert scotch drinkers, you know, mainly from a global community over to bourbon drinkers. And that's a lot of investment in that that most people don't understand. And that market helps us, you know, grow here in Kentucky and produce more alcohol. So if you're a scotch drinker, if you're a newly converted scotch drinker, to bourbon and you go into your favorite watering hole now and you see that bourbon is 25%, higher in price, do you go back to what you were drinking, and now we've lost you, potentially for a generation, that that's not good. Then you've got the situation where, if you're a company, you try to absorb that 25% or as much of it as possible as you can Which means less jobs and investment here in Kentucky, which again, hurts the Commonwealth. or going to your point out, you know, hey, I've just invested $50 million and doubled my production and I've got these stills do I keep them running? Well, okay, you do that. And suddenly, in six years, there's a glut of spirits on the market, that's gonna cause a price war, which probably the first casualty is gonna be the craft spirits market, it's going to put people out of business. And that's not good from a global spirit spirits industry, as well. So we don't like door number one, door number two or door number three on all those and that's why we've been lobbying awful hard to get this resolved as quick as possible.

29:47 So talk to me a little bit through about what your processes when you're lobbying against efforts like this,

29:53 bang the drum as loudly as possible. We've met with pretty much anybody who would listen to us And I've got to give a hand to our partners at the Scotch whisky association that still spirits counts the United States the American craft spirits Association, the American just just distilled spirits Association I mean this affects all of us. So one of the things that we did in Fred was actually there a couple years ago we brought the world whisky community to Lowell and had a W nine some of their Nanos so we called the W nine and talked about this you know, what are we all going to do about this because it affects everybody and we met for two days and eventually put out a resolution calling upon the world's leaders to get together and resolve this quickly before the long term consequences you know, send them became real and even planted an oak tree right in front of the Frazier there and got a lot of press and we got a lot of phone calls about it and and we all kind of went back to our corners and, and did what we we've continued to do is is just talk to us. Every Congress person, you name it. Congressman Andy Barr in Kentucky was having a fundraiser with Vice President Pence flying in. He managed to get our major companies in a meeting with Vice President Pence who from Indiana knows exactly what bourbon means to Kentucky. And he took that message back to President Trump. The governor here in Kentucky had Vice President Pence in last year during the derby did the same thing for us to help us. We've got you know, we're on speed dial with Senator McConnell's office checking in consistently with them on what more they can do. We've had meetings recently with commerce, cabinet, finance, cabinet trade, you know, Senator Grassley, his office, all these people just really explained to them how devastating these consequences could be if this goes on much longer. And the answer to them is all you know, we understand, but these decisions are being made itself high levels. That's where the frustration comes in. And, you know, we know that the US does have trade issues with countries and we get that. And we know that the steel and aluminum thing is a real issue because here in Kentucky, we have great steel and aluminum plants because of our historical low energy rates. So, you know, we're not pointing fingers at anybody, we're just, you know, going up and just trying to tell our story on you know, what this could mean to the industry. You know, because it's like, again, it's like just putting the brakes on a freight train, which is trying to sell bourbon at the end of the day, or at least

32:38 get and I want to remind, I want to remind people to who are listening, and we're never we're never really going to get a lot of backlash on this. People are gonna think all this is political. You know, you're you're you're bashing Trump and what he's trying to do. I want to remind people that this is not political. This is this is an industry who speaks to both sides. Absolutely. And talk bipartisan Talk Talk to us about about that about how you how you have to kind of keep your personal politics out of it and how you have to work with both sides. What's that like?

33:11 Well, you know, let me start from a state point here. You alcohol bills in Kentucky are incredibly hard to pass no matter what the subject is. I mean, we've even had people up here that will vote against our social responsibility efforts. Just because the word alcohol it's in the title of the bill. So we have to have Democrats and Republicans supporting alcohol measures or they just won't pass. So yes, we are constantly we say we support our friends and we have friends on both sides of the aisle. And the great thing about our Kentucky General Assembly is they understand that because they know that some of their members because of their constituencies and coming from drag counties just cannot support alcohol yet but without like how he said yeah,

33:54 yeah,

33:56 yeah, TBD drywall wedge, the you know, the The great thing about one of the smartest things that the KDA did, you know, years ago back in 2010, was invite the craft distilleries are coming into Kentucky into the Association. We change our bylaws, because not only is it good for them and our our legacy distilleries have been tremendous mentors to them, but it also spread our political footprint across the state now in 32 counties. And so we've had legislators now who never voted wet, who vote wet because they understand the the economic impact and the tourism impact, especially of that craft distillery in their district. So that's really helped. But we know you look at you know, we have a political action committee, we raise money for that. You look at our donations, they're almost evenly split between Democrats and Republicans, because we have to have support on both sides of the aisle. So we're very fortunate in Kentucky. Yes, we have Senator McConnell, who can be a lightning rod, obviously, if you're, you know, in politics, but we're lucky that we have his leadership up there because he has the President's ear and he is always, you know, carrying our agenda. That's why we have given him awards in the past. We're very fortunate to have john Yarmuth out of level now chairing Ways and Means and so met with him recently and, and he gets it because congressman Yarmuth is a huge rabid fan, and especially in local bourbon city right now, you know, and all the tremendous growth there he sees the tourism impact in the economic impact on a daily basis. Having him in the house carrying that message for us is equally as important. And, you know, he and Congressman Brett Guthrie started the bourbon caucus in DC which which is growing and as more and more states you know, produce America's only native spirit. So we have to be bipartisan and it's funny because as presently Katie, you know, you have to be kind of like a chameleon on my Republican friends think I'm a democrat and I'm a democratic friends think I'm a Republican. And I say well, I must be doing something right. Y'all don't know what I

35:55 guess. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you also have to be careful to with your membership of when you go to bar what you pick?

36:01 I do. And it's funny, obviously, you know, when people ask me, what's your favorite bourbon Kentucky bourbon is always my answer. But in it, what I usually try to do one of two things I'll usually try to drink from the county I'm in. right then. I also tend to favor our chairman or Chairwoman right now, at the time if you know this year is the heaven Hill, year to chair the KDA. And our great friend Jessica pentagrams. For heaven Hill, general counsel is is the new Chairwoman, so you'll probably tend to see me drink more heaven Hill products this year. But then there are some bars I go to and you know this Eric, what do you want and just surprised me, you know, just just mix me a good old fashioned then and I'll go from there.

36:48 Yeah, the his memberships got spies on him.

36:51 Yeah.

36:54 They have to though. Yeah, that's right.

36:55 And so I guess one of the other things I want to talk about a part of the lobbying effort here is, you know, There has to be it's got to be frustrating because we're This is a syntax basically at the end of the day right like it's alcohol and I would imagine that government just look at it like it's an easy target right an easy target attacks. When you won't like your rumblings of anything like is it like Alright, here we go like put the bat signal in the everybody get together. We're going to fly there. We're going to squash this before it ever blows up.

37:22 Well, first of all, yes. That's when you look at the government affairs strategies for your strategy number one is always hold the line on taxes. Everything else is one a one B. And Fred, highlighted our 2009 bourbon Tea Party in which we poured bourbon on the Capitol steps. And if you go to my office on top of the cabinet, I have the empty bottles in there that serve as a daily reminder for me and never forget that you know, yes, right now they're your friend but in thirst or for revenue. The first place they usually look is cigarettes or alcohol or one of the what they We think of as sin industries. But I think we've done a good job, you know, challenge changing the conversation in the culture in Frankfurt, especially from sin to signature. And that 2009 bill was probably the best wake up call for the industry and the association. That is one of the best things that ever happened to us. I mean, I can tell you the dates It was announced, if it's ingrained in my memory is announced on February 6, they pass it on Friday, February 13. That took effect on April Fool's Day. I mean, you couldn't have written a better script for how all this went down. But you had the bourbon industry and not just bourbon the alcohol industry in general because you had the beer truck circling the Capitol. You know, we galvanized they in you, we fought the governor, the Senate president and the Speaker of the House on an issue and came within one vote of killing that in one week. And it brought us together more, more and quicker than anything could have. So it's actually a blessing in disguise. For us, because we held an emergency meeting after that, February 26. See, these are how important these dates were to me and the history. And one of our board members looked at the rest of the board and said, Are we really a signature industry? Or is that a self portrait? And you could see everybody just kind of living, they physically took a step back from the table and went, you're right. Are we really a sanction? We'd like to think we're a signature in se, but are we? And so they said, what do we need to do? And so we said, All right, we need to have an economic impact study that shows what our impact is to the Commonwealth, we need to start talking about bourbon not just as a drink, but as part of the culture and the economy and tourism and things like that. And so once we started doing that, and we did, we came up with the first ever economic impact study and it is such a tool for the industry, you know, to showcase what we mean to Kentucky that we do it every two years now. And it's a no brainer. We just know we do it every two years. To update and so that gives us also the ability to forecast right what jobs are going to do what we think is going to be coming in there and down the line. But once we started talking about bourbon as economic development and tourism in and investment in jobs, it really changed the focus here in Frankfort, that we weren't a sin industry more as as Fred said earlier, because I remember sitting in a meeting in 2010 with Bill Samuels and and senate president or Senator Robert Stivers, who's now senate president and him looking as the saying you are not a signature industry. You're an image industry, but you are not a signature industry. Coal is a signature industry because he's from the coal fields of Eastern Kentucky. And now to hear him stand up and say you may be the only signature industry left in the state because coal is is dying tobacco is dead. You know, horse racing definitely has its challenges. That's, that's been, you know, a 180 turnaround from where we were 10 years ago. But it's a lot of it's been a lot of hard work, educating legislators. And, you know, in all, like all the other tools that a trade association uses, like political action committees and things like that, to make sure that they know that we appreciate their support and changing these laws.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Old Forester Single Barrel Barrel Strength

Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:30:41 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Old Forester Single Barrel Barrel Strength. This non-age stated bourbon is 130-135 proof and around $70 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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BONUS: Cutting Out The Three Tier System with Adam Koenig and Christy Trout

Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:30:12 GMT

If you don’t live in Kentucky, you still need to listen because this is the first piece of legislature that could hit your state next. Adam Koenig, State Representative and Chairman for the Licensing and Occupation Committee in the House, and Christy Trout, Lawyer, Former Commissioner the KY Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control, and Special Counsel to the Speaker of the House, give us a break down of the Kentucky House Bill 415. HB415 is the beginning of dismantling the three tier system. Giving consumers the ability to buy directly from distilleries and producers themselves, putting more money back into the pockets of the distillery. No distributor in the equation AND the distiller also acts as the retailer. Second is shipping. Distilleries, as well as breweries and wineries, can now ship to your doorstep in reciprocal states. Listen to get all the details

Show Notes:

Download the HB415 Summary

Support this podcast on Patreon

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249 - Will COVID-19 Change Bourbon Commerce Laws Forever? Bourbon Community Roundtable #43

Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:30:04 GMT

Today’s podcast, as you guessed it, is a reflection on what’s been happening with COVID-19. The whiskey industry is going to see some big changes. We’ve seen legislation pass as it relates to shipping and delivery of alcohol because it’s deemed an essential part of living and our culture. How long will this trend stick around and will we see this continue when the pandemic is over? Do you want to see more relaxed liquor laws? Lets hear it in the comments.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about grains.
Lots has changed since our last roundtable with COVID-19.
Are people actually drinking more? Or are they just hoarding?
Is distribution down with distilleries producing hand sanitizer?
Will COVID-19 change consumer demand indefinitely with services for shipping and delivery?
KY HB415 has passed. What could this mean for the greater United States?
Should these large corporations that have donated 50k, 500k, or 1M be donating more? Billions in revenue vs a small donation amount in comparison.
When this is all over, what’s the best thing that will come out of COVID-19?

0:00 Are you interested in preparing your expertise on the distilling process with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you need to check out the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program that can be completed in as little as six courses. The program is taught by both UVL business faculty and corporate fellows. So you are getting real experience from experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. We're talking leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory, jack daniels and more. get enrolled to this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. So your meetings of the day are Andy, Donald Trump.

0:46 No wonder you drink Jesus.

1:01 This is Episode 249 of bourbon pursuit. And it's another week stuck at home. I don't know about you, but we're party hopping. We're going from the living room to the dining room, the kitchen, all just looking for some entertainment. And as you can guess the industry news has also been pretty slow. So you're in luck. We've got a short intro this week. We all know that restaurants and bars are feeling the pain right now. So one man in Tampa, Florida stepped up with a $40,000 cashier's check to purchase a bottle of the old Rip Van Winkle 25 year decanter that was listed for $20,000 to help save debts one of his favorite restaurants in the area. This bottle was only one of 710 that was released back in 2017. That had an MSRP of around 1800 dollars. In bourbon pursuit news. Our jack daniels barrel proof single barrel went on sale this week. And then it's sold out. Because of COVID-19. We've had to delete three of our barrel selections this year, and we're hoping we will have to reschedule anymore but I hope everyone can

2:00 Be grateful that we've got ourselves a few good bottles that get us through this process. And if you want to see all the barrel selections that we have scheduled, and the ones that we have for the rest of the year, go to patreon.com. Slash bourbon pursuit. During this time when you're hanging out with family or friends on zoom, they might be seeing you there sipping a bourbon neat. While they've got a cold, refreshing beer in their hands. Ask if they want to try some of your bourbon, fill up a sample bottle or to walk it over, drop it in their driveway, put it in their mailbox, take this opportunity to spread the good word of bourbon. And since they're stuck at home, tell them to check out your favorite bourbon podcast so they can binge and catch up as well. You'd be doing both of us a favor, and we'd really appreciate it. As you know, we're pushing out more content on live streams. So make sure that you're following our social media handles. And you may have even seen some bonus episodes this past week as well. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and make sure that you never miss those bonus episodes. today's podcast as you guessed it is a reflection on what's been happening with the Coronavirus

3:00 The whiskey industry is going to see some big changes. Because of this. We've seen an insurmountable push for legislation. And that's been passed because reflects the shipping and delivery of alcohol because it's now deemed an essential part of living in our culture. But how long will this trend stick around? Can we continue to see this as the pandemic is over? Hopefully, we get to see more relaxed laws continue to happen. And if you want to see more relax laws and what you'd like to see changed, let's hear it in the comments. Once again, enjoy this time inside with your family. Have a nice pour bourbon, and now you get to hear Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char.

3:39 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrel craft spirits. Our Bourbons have won a few medals, some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Use the store locator at barrel bourbon calm.

3:53 I'm Fred MiniK, and this is above the charm. This week's idea comes from an old email

4:00 Keith Norton wrote on March 3, sorry for the delay Keith wanted to know, what's the difference between bourbon rye bourbon, and a weighted bourbon from a taste perspective? is one sweeter than another? does one have a multi flavor? And, yeah, happy to approach that. It's actually a good good chunk of that information in my book bourbon curious that you can go to and it's a pretty good guide. Look, when it comes to breaking down the flavors of all whiskies, not just bourbon, but scotches. There's so much that goes into it. The mash bill is something that we tend to get

4:42 connected to because we understand it, we really start formulating thoughts about how one profile is different when in fact, a weeded bourbon has is historically going in at lower barrel entry proofs and I would argue that hey, maybe it's

5:00 Not the wheat that's causing it to have that real velvety structure and the deep caramel notes. Maybe it's the barrel entry proof. And then you have

5:10 the high rye Bourbons that tend to be extraordinarily spicy. I've had some of late that tend to be more floral than spicy. And where does that come from? Why it's a matter of fact, the yeast, but talking about the yeast is not necessarily as sexy as as the grain. Now there are definitely those that are more malt forward and heaven Hill is a kind of a like a classic example for me that they tend to a lot of their whiskies will have like a caramel malt flavor to it. Now where's that coming from? ag could very well be their distillation technique or the the way the barrels raging. But when it comes down to it, you do have some generalizations to how these whiskies will taste in nine times out of 10 the higher the right content, the more spicy

6:00 You will find okay so I'm talking about like pepper, cinnamon, cardamom all these like baking spices that you would like have in your your baking spice rack, you know you'll find a lot more of those and the higher right Bourbons, you'll also tend to find like a nugget of herbs from time to time. Now the weeded Bourbons will they tend to be a just a touch sweeter, just a touch softer and they don't have that same kind of vibrant finish on kind of a generalization. Now you give me a William LaRue Weller from the Buffalo Trace antique collection and you're gonna get your socks knocked off, you know, so I mean, it varies but Maker's Mark which is kind of like the everyday standard, you know, we did bourbon, you know, four or five years old we did. recipe, you know, a lot of people will taste that and says it's very wood forward has nothing to do with a wheat

7:00 So more more of the things that we taste in a nose out of whiskies, you know, grains only probably make up 20 to 30% of, of the, of the flavor. Most of it's coming from the barrel and the techniques, if you were really you need to lump the grains into like the fermentation techniques. So if you put that if you put the grains in the same kind of like soup as the fermentation and the yeast, you know, then I think that that 20 to 30% goes up to about 40% it's all about who you talk to, and you know what distillery prioritizes? How, you know how they make it. So is the grain important? Oh, God, absolutely. It all starts with the grain. But is it the end all be all for the taste and flavor that you get? No. But it sure is fun to talk about and it's easy to understand. So that's the

8:00 This week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char like Keith, why don't you write me an email you can go to my website Fred minik.com that's Fred minich comm click that contact button, and at the very least, maybe we can start a conversation about good bourbon. Until next week. Cheers

8:21 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. This is the 43rd recording of the I know that sounds like a question. It is the 43rd recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable actually to have the second guess myself because it's so many times but Fred Ryan, good to see you all again on this glorious quarantine evening. How are you all? Great. I feel like I see you all more on quarantine virtually in real life.

8:51 No, it's Oh, it's always just good to hang out with my with my fellows. It's good to see you guys. Well, I would say that I'm I'm getting

9:00 Getting a little stir crazy, like I'm ready for this stuff to end. It's that or I'm also getting to the point now where I have to get on like zoom meetings for my daughter, because she has like virtual soccer practice or like classrooms and stuff. And it's killing me because I've been using zoom for three years now. And I know how to press the damn mute button, and you log on and it's just chaos. There's just sound coming from everywhere.

9:26 Well imagine what it's like to be a teacher. You know, I mean, this whole thing has made me realize that we don't pay our teachers enough in and whatever we can do to increase their salaries. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah, we can pay their salaries.

9:43 Exactly. I'm all about it. I'm all about it. So we've got it. We've got a good lineup of stuff to talk about tonight. But let's go ahead, we'll go around the horn. And you know, because a lot actually changed since we're here at the Ross roundtable with COVID-19 but I was able to just do the regular introductions.

10:00 So we'll start off with Blake Blake, just kind of tell people where you blog at. And, you know, if if you know, where do you think or how do you think Carol Baskins actually killed her husband?

10:11 Yeah. So I'm Blake from bourbon er. You probably know me as the Cal Ripken roundtable still undefeated on the roundtable that you know, if you're undefeated by just showing up that's how that's what I kind of W in this in this world. But no, always fun to be here. So thanks again. Yeah, everyone who watched Tiger King, go back and listen to the podcast. I feel like that's the new debate. It's like, well, was the movie better? Was the book better? You know, our generations debate was was the podcast better? Or was the documentary better on Netflix? So check that out. Definitely more entertaining. So I'll go out and check the podcasts. We actually ended up watching last night the the kind of like after, whatever it is with Joel McHale. And so it kind of talked about, it was just like a one hour series of just you know, interviewing pretty much everybody

11:00 Except the tiger king himself, so it was, it was pretty good. Yeah, check that on Netflix if you haven't yet. Officially on Netflix, I saw everybody complaining on Twitter that Joel was basically just making fun of everyone.

11:14 He made fun of himself too. So, okay, that's what makes a good host. Yeah, he was also tied in so we me and Joel McHale something in common.

11:26 Yeah, just go ahead and just dm each other on Twitter. Yeah, yeah, but the glory days.

11:33 All right, Jordan, what do you think was did she feed into the Tigers are buried in a septic tank? Oh 100% the Tigers quick, easy. They were hungry. Why not? So this is Jordan from breaking bourbon calm and catch us on the socials at breaking bourbon. Make sure to visit this site for our near daily Release Calendar updates. Awesome. And Brian, what are your thoughts? Do you think Carol did it or you think you think you think maybe she's she's clean on this one.

12:00 I mean, you are the wall here. Well, I'm gonna throw you for a loop on this. I haven't seen it. I don't have Netflix. I'm also the person who avoided seeing Titanic and Avatar, so I try not to do those things. Yeah, I'm really exciting like that. Yeah.

12:17 Titanic was it because you like you already knew what the end was gonna have. It was well is knew what was gonna happen and it was it people were too far into it. Well, it was too big. I guess I was contrarians on that.

12:29 But I can't so I can't. I mean, I know from Twitter what's going on, but I'm clueless when it comes to it.

12:36 But if so, if you want boring stuff that's not up to date. Come see Brian here, right. sipping corn mostly on Twitter, sipping corn calm and bourbon justice, calm. Thanks for having me on again, guys. As always, man, always happy to have you here. So I guess the one thing we want to start talking about is because a lot has happened since the last time we talked, I remember it was what three weeks ago

13:00 Go. And it was maybe actually it's probably four weeks ago things were like just starting to snowball, right? Just a little bit. I know Jordan in Pennsylvania like there was talk of like some things happening but they hadn't closed down all the liquor stores yet. And now they now they like reopen them up somewhat like online like a hot mess. Yeah. So yeah, so for those at home that don't know about PA, it's a state run system. And it's beyond sloppily managed on a good day, right? Oh,

13:33 they shut down the liquor stores. But before they did that, they announced that they're gonna shut it down. There is of course, a mad rush and ever ignored social distancing. And they also shut down online delivery. And then they've opened up online delivery maybe like a week or two ago, but I have yet to talk to one person who has figured out a way to get in. And it was really funny. So they did an article, like basically saying the came out touting the success of the online liquor.

14:00 Store and how well it's going right? They basically measured it by saying, Well, on a normal day we get, we processed four orders an hour, but now we're up to like 50 orders an hour. Right? And you think about that, and that's an entire state, right. So like any other private business would go out of business long time ago. And somehow pa spins out for a wind. So it's been a hot mess, the good news, local distilleries around pa or shipping. You know, we've seen a lot of uptick in supporting local, which is great. And I'm a huge advocate, especially during this time supporting local for all businesses. So we've seen a huge influx of people around the state buying from their local distilleries or trying out new distilleries around the state, which is really nice, but point at the state just dropped the ball on this one. And I guess that kind of goes into really like the first subjects when we look at the way that consumer demand has really changed from COVID-19. I mean, let's let's not beat around the bush like we've been touting this for a long time. And you know, Blake's been on the forefront with opening sealed box and trying to get shipping happening in and making that happen.

15:00 And then all of a sudden you see drizzly and instacart and Bart and all these different kind of services like they're gonna meet like five or six x three annual projections now, and you now are also seeing every single liquor store every single restaurant scrambling to get their, their, their online or basically get their store online. And not only that, I mean, we'll talk about how 15 Hospital for 15 and a little bit, but I mean, do we see that after this thing starts ending like after it's over? Are we going to see some of these services start going like back to normal? Or do you think this is this is gonna be the new normal? thing, Pandora's Box been open when it comes to liquor delivery, that's for sure. So, you know, other businesses aside, I think consumers now are realizing Well, we should be able to everything else. When we get to our doorstep, we should, you know, be able to get liquor to our doorstep to and the convenience is just there, right. I mean, if you can avoid a trip to the store, they don't have it in stock, all that stuff. Sure. And I think people are once they once they get used to it. They're going to continue to

16:00 expect that afterwards and I don't blame them. And it's not going to take along the east to this. I mean, if we can get drive up cocktails made ahead of us for the from the restaurant and get that and if we can get curbside service or delivery service from the liquor store. I mean, it's the trains leaving the station already. I hope that's I hope this lasts. One thing that I noticed that after after I wrote that Forbes story, and

16:26 I can't remember what the title was, was something to do with like a pandemic, you know, bring a war between the distillers and wholesalers. I got a lot of feedback from distillers thanking me for this the one thing that I have realized in this in this current state is that the distilleries really really want shipping. I mean, they want they want shipping, probably more than anything that's out there. And

16:55 you know, they don't all come out talking about it, but they all really want it

17:00 Because it's another revenue driver for them. And this has shown that this is where the consumer populace wants to live moving forward because we're not. I don't know where when you know, when we're going to go back to normal. I mean, everyone wants to talk about, you know, when that's going to be a nobody got a crystal ball, but everybody needs a drink. And that drive thru is nice. That delivery is really freakin nice. And so let's I want to talk to the guy a little bit that that actually could show us a graph of sales like Blake, what have you seen in regards of like, just your online sales? I mean, have they increased at all? Or is it kind of status quo? It definitely has, um, it's a little hard because it is a newer company. So like saying that it's up, you know, 90% over last year's is a little bit of a, you know, a false sense of what's actually happening because I don't have a ton of historical data but in general, you know, you have what they call OMD. So October

18:00 November, December, then it slumps. And we still haven't seen that slump yet. You know, it's it's been jumping right up. And, you know, it's funny, you can kind of see as some of these states, certain states in particular will, they'll call for a lockdown, and we'll see an increase in traffic from those states. So it is a really interesting thing because I think a lot of these government officials are having to think about this for the first time whereas before they just had a lobbyist or whoever was saying, nope, we can't do that. It's not safe. And it's like hold on with all this. It's like, what Why is this not safe again, like it's not safe for people to go to a liquor store. So explain to me why it's not safe for them to have it delivered to their home. So you know, you don't want to say like something good comes out of this where we get this push through because it is so minor compared to what we're facing, but it it has a lot of people rethinking it and, you know, just on the steelbook side, we've seen a giant increase in in sales and people interested

19:00 from other states that we can't ship to, and it's like, hey, why can't you ship to me in New York? We're, you know, we're locked down and I'm like, I'd love to, but your state says we can't. So.

19:11 Yeah, a fear I have

19:14 is then that they're going to be so busy trying to rebuild their states and do deal with so much more important issues that's gonna get put on the back burner even more. And so like, I don't know, it's every day It seems like Andy gets at contended our governor gets asked like, so why are liquor stores essential? You know, and like, it's so you know, there's still people trying to like prod that there. You know, because we have some inch, we have an interesting demographic in our state. Well, I think I think we might have talked about that last time picking back on that though, Ryan, so I know. Right? And that's what was surprising for a lot of people in Pennsylvania because there is you know, I've read a lot of articles from just doctors and nurses have the same thing as much as we don't want admit it right like alcohol.

20:00 abuse is a large issue for a large amount of the population and if you don't give them access to alcohol then they're the ones clogging up the hospitals oh yeah right no doubt so and but I think that also should show you like it should be eye opening for a lot of people yeah for sure no doubt i mean i i totally agree and this is kind of broke down that barrier like that distributors could say Oh, it's not safe but now they're like we need this to keep sales going. So it's like you know it's a it's pretty funny but yeah, I hope it all continues on because I mean, it's it's fantastic. We tried the drizzly app and got stuff shipped to our house and now I got all my neighbors doing it for party mark here and like they're like loving it. It's it's pretty sweet.

20:42 You know, there's a there's been another wrinkle that's come up from this and you know, while the the shipping stuff and everything is Come on, I you You always hear me talk about this. But the anti alcohol people have started coming on saying that this is

20:59 they're looking

21:00 To try and ban alcohol and every single state right now. So they're they're taking advantage of this pandemic in a very different way. They're saying that this is going to lead to more abuse in the homes there's going to be more domestic abuse, there's going to be more alcohol related problems, there's going to be more liver failures and stuff. So they're taking this as an opportunity to say, hey, look at all these sales, you know, our country we're going to be hurting from this we need to ban all liquor sales. I mean, that that's some of the stuff that that's also going going on right now back door, and I just with legislators, I feel like we should make an amendment to the Constitution then if that's what it's gonna be to

21:36 try that.

21:40 Yeah, Brian, you're not busy, right?

21:43 Let's do that. Round two. I know there's a surge in sales, but it's more of like a stocking up thing. Like I just don't see it continuing down this path. Like if things kind of slow. Well, I go back open and so like, is this stocking up or have you guys seen those videos of people going on and

22:00 Dog filming their neighbors recycle bins 17 bottles of wine Yeah. And and bourbon bottles all over the place. Yes. I don't know if it's stocking up, you know, in full transparency my my consumption is definitely up because I don't know everyday feels like a Friday and a Saturday kind of so it's like Alright, well it is five o'clock I can go ahead and have a drink and then some days like alright, it's three o'clock I'm not doing anything the rest of the day. You know, I'm not getting drunk or hammered any of the times, but it's definitely more than I normally would during the week.

22:37 So you know that that adds up over time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. My consumptions way up it actually yesterday. I was like, I'm taking a day off yesterday. Yeah, fires me. And I still haven't had a drink yet. And I'm like, I was like, I haven't not drank ever since since it started it. You know, I would usually drink take like three or four days off a week. But now it's like you

23:00 You just do 234 every night because you get off at five o'clock with Andy. And then he cut in President Trump's lawn and then you have dinner.

23:08 And then you put your you have dinner with your kids and you turn on a movie, then you have more drinks. And then next thing you know you're in bed and you wake up, repeat. So so your meetings of the day are Andy, Donald Trump.

23:24 No wonder you, Dre. Jeez.

23:28 I might be the only one like, I feel like I'm still like my, like normal scale like myself. I'm right there with you, Kenny. Yeah, I was like, I don't really think anything's really changed in that regard. However, there were a lot of stats that came out. I mentioned them. I believe last week on the opening of the podcast, talking about really like there has been a spike in alcohol sales like it's there's, there's no you know, there's no hiding it like there has been a surge. But then there was another great article that came out an opinion article by Steve Coombs last week that kind of talks about like are people actually doing

24:00 making more or are they just hoarding? Because if you look at the actual sales of things that are happening, it's a lot of like 1.75 and one liters of stuff. And so that equates to a lot of unfortunately Tito's, but there's also a lot of 1.7 fives of Maker's Mark and other types of, you know, basically bulk whiskey that people are actually purchasing rather than going out and you know, getting this little 750 here or anything like that people actually making these big bulk purchases. However, I think most of us here have enough bourbon in their library or their

24:36 choose any random choose any random closet in your house that could defeat the most general populace out there. So I tell you, I've been doing these nightly tastings and I've been trying to be creative with the stuff I taste and, and

24:52 and that's when you I found that that's, that's the one the one way to like determine how much I really care about a bottle because I'm finding myself

25:00 been very reluctant to go into my stash of like 1930s the 1950s stuff. And

25:09 and I'm like, I, I know it's I know people want to see me drink that, but I can't do it. I can't open it up yet. I don't want to open it up for that I want to open up for something else. So maybe it'll we'll get there. But what I have noticed is that yes, well we have a lot of stuff. It's very interesting to see what I am drinking. Because, you know, when I'm that, you know, live streaming or something, I'm drinking something very different. And it's not stuff that I would know that I wouldn't think I would be drinking. So just Evan Williams bottled and bond

25:41 it's nothing like that. It's mainlining it it's funny you say that phrase because I think you know, mean economic have talked about this a few times. We've almost taken like the opposite approach. In fact, Eric did an opinion piece on the site not too long ago where, you know, the more we The more we know, people are getting impacted especially from economic and being in New York. I think

26:00 Almost switched our mindset to be like you have a special bottles we're holding on to maybe we'll start cracking one or two more of those more often just because you never know. Right? So I think it's interesting you say that and it'll be even more interesting to see how your mentality changes the longer the actual lockdown goes down. Right? Yeah, that'll be truly interesting. Yeah, it's definitely a psychological thing and it's not really it's, it's I'm definitely still drinking the good stuff Don't get me wrong, but I mean, I've got some of those really, really rare bottles that I hunted for worked hard to get and, and, you know, I was looking forward to like cracking them open with friends and like, our night or something nothing and it's like when the hell am I ever going to be around people? Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, I'd like to look at the see that that hopefully the lies at the end of the tunnel, but man, I just something tells me it's not though. I really want this to be over soon. But today was pretty. It's pretty grim. So yeah, yeah. How do we how do how do we get to it?

27:00 point where we're not. We talk about it, but not like in the depressing sense. It's like, Oh, yeah, so make sure you wear your new mask out there, by the way, the weather is going to be 55 and sunny today. You know, it's only when you become used to it, and no one no one's bracing for that. Yep. It's a maybe a poor analogy, right. But in terms of so think when the smog index came out, and you know, you go to a polluted city or pluta country stuff like that, and used to be home in the smog, like off the chart now. It's just like, you know, la or, you know, if I go to India or anything like that, it's like, here's a smog for the day. Gonna be bad for your health. Moving on. That's it, and you're like, Oh, okay. normal part of life now. All right. It's just gonna be kind of like that, like, viruses are breaking out. Just be extra productive today. All right. Great. Thanks. So the trash cans, employees, please don't. But it's a good question that came in from Brian here. And he's wondering if, if the distribution from distilleries distributors is way down right now, especially with hand sanitizer production going on. Along with folks being quarantine. I mean, what

28:00 What do you think is the the short term and the long term outcome of what we're going to see here? So I actually talked with a couple people about this from the distributor aspect. And they were saying that basically, their sales numbers were about pretty close to dead on what they were in prior months. And that's 100% because of off premise. So they lost all of the on premise. And we're able to make up the majority of it with off premise sales.

28:29 Now for other distilleries who rely heavily on their tasting room or that's even you know, they lost that part which really hurts but as far as like the big guys go, I don't know that they're that affected because the demand through distribution has been so strong because retail has been so strong.

28:48 So I don't know it'll be interesting to see how that all I think the hand sanitizer thing is great for their, for them just kind of giving back, but it's not really making up

29:00 A huge part of their revenue. And ultimately, I think it's the smaller guys who are going to be affected who, who have a bigger, you know, tasting room and all that kind of all those kind of sales going on. Yeah, I mean, anybody who geared up for tourism is just looking at this scared and glammed up scared, kind of want to get, you know, Brian or Jordans kind of thoughts if we see any kind of short or long term effects of these distilleries haven't been shut down or producing sanitizer. Yeah. So, sanitizer. I think it's great. I'll address that first. I think it's awesome. I think it's great. I have yet to see some hit areas or at least even be available online. I think it's going to first responders, which is the right thing, so that's even better. But I was thinking about this the other day as I was going for a run on the treadmill, right? So all these distilleries the last two years have just dumped money and expanding their visitor centers right Woodford just opened up their new one right buffalo trail.

30:00 was doing a huge expansion. Everyone's that was the whole the whole shtick, right? let's dump more money, let's think big thing, right? But those who have put all this money in there, it's almost a shame because I don't know if it's ever going to go back to the way of having just a crush of people line up at a bar right thing of going to a Woodford for a Buffalo Trace on a Saturday, right, with all the tourists. Everyone's just lined up getting shots and tasting your samples and stuff like that. And that may never go back to the way it was. And, you know, they might be regretting that that influx of cash, they just put in that this your experience now. I mean, I think it'll come back to at least some extent, but that's never where they're making their money. I mean, they have to get the people there in the first place. And there are a lot more people who are drinking Woodford than ever that ever make it to that tour or to any other distilleries. So they've they've got plenty of bourbon that they've distilled in the last few years socked away, that'll still come to the market.

31:00 They just need to find a new way to market it. And instead of trying to bring people to the distillery, which I think is a small percent, I mean, it's a growing percentage, but it's a smaller percentage. So we're taking a hit on the old bourbon trail, as far as that marketing goes, but there's, I think there's plenty more to do and they can recover from that. Yeah, and humans forget things. I mean, it's, yeah, we're I mean, it's easy now to say all we can but it's like even like after the last recession, you know, like and people got in trouble with you know, loans and mortgages or whatever and like a year later, they're doing the exact same damn thing. Yeah, we're still giving like no proof mortgages in like, you know, I AR, whatever you call it, but just alarms and all that. Yeah, arms. Yeah. We just need like two more tweets that says whiskey kills the virus and it'll open.

31:56 Start just spreading the rumors now might as well

32:00 So I guess that kind of makes me want to go into sort of like the next segment here. And that's looking at House Bill 415. So I know that a lot of us have been kind of following this for for quite some time in regards of what this means. And there's this, this great PDF that got sent out by some of the people that were for the bill and making it happen. So just to kind of like digest this down. What this really means is that, and hopefully what this means is a potential domino effect of what we could see for the rest of the United States to hopefully latch on to. And this is the giving the ability for distilleries to now ship direct to consumers, completely bypassing a distributor and bypassing and actually, I guess they function as the retailer in this point, right. And that's what I know that there was a lot of

32:52 commotion, I guess, you could say from distributors and everything like that and retailers that didn't want this. I mean, of course, you don't want this right. I mean,

33:00 Kinda like it pokes a hole in your whole business model. But the the other side of this is that this is now putting spirits and putting Kentucky as one of the first states to now have the same exact law as around what is it like 40 or 42 other states that allows shipping of wine, right i mean shipping and wine from California or anywhere else like that's pretty, pretty standard.

33:25 However, this is now starting to allow this to happen for for greedy spirits. So looking at this now, I'm all for it. I think this is something that we've been offered for a while Blake, I know is he's over the moon for it. But I kind of want to think is there because I know Fred, we had brought this up before and this that you know you you had talked about the warning signs of saying like, well, all it's gonna take is for like, you know, one kid intercept something and then this could all all go under. Has this bill passed like sort of change your mind and regarding

34:00 of of potentially like the shift we're starting to see in in the legal side of things

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35:19 you had talked about the warning signs of saying like, well, all it's gonna take is for like, you know, one kid intercept something and then this could all all go under. Has this bill passed, like sort of change your mind in regards of of potentially like the, the shift we're starting to see in in the legal side of things. Well, first of all, I've always been for you know, some type of shipping. I've always thought that you know if wine can do it, you know, whiskey should have that same, right. I've always just taken the side of like, taking the kind of devil's advocate side of like, I know like how the wholesalers think and as soon as this bill was passed, they came out against it.

36:00 very heavily. And basically said it was a shame that Kentucky took advantage of a, of a pandemic to get this thing passed. And they called the they called the KDA. And a bunch of people who push for quote bad actors. I they use that a lot in their press releases. I still don't understand what that means. Well, still hasn't like approved or vetoed it right. He's hasn't even like, right. Didn't auto into Milan? Yeah, but not until like June or July, I believe. So there's a 90 day period before it become goes into law. But it's like it was but by him not signing it or vetoing it, it basically passed and that was just the weird provision to it. So it's, it's good. But yeah, I think from a from,

36:50 from an overall perspective of like, people have kind of swung to this pendulum of like, as long as someone is checking the ID

37:00 And oh, by the way, the wholesalers, they own a little piece of a company called drizzly. So they're okay with delivery as long as they are getting, you know, it's as it seems as long as they are, have like a guaranteed structure of someone, you know, being 21. And someone texted me today and said, The wholesalers are okay, as long as they're getting their cut. That's what I was gonna say. I was like, making sure that we're getting there. 25% that's what I was making sure that that's what they're gonna say. And and that's a, I get that. But, look, if wineries can do it distillers should be able to that's it. You just sound like a bad actor. That's all it is.

37:41 But I mean, I mean with this, it's still only two like six reciprocating states, right. So it's, it's more than that. It's like 12, I believe. Yeah, it's a handful. But yeah, it's a handful and it's in that it's in that release.

37:56 But the some of the big wind states are on there. So

38:00 California is not on there. But you know, Rhode Island. What are we going to get from Rhode Island or Hawaii? I mean, hold on the islands get some decent distilleries. How do they do it?

38:11 Alright, so here are the states. Alaska.

38:15 Arizona. I you know what? No, Connecticut, Hawaii, Kentucky, Nebraska, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Rhode Island and Washington DC giddy up. I mean, when I look at this, though, I try to think picture it from. And I think this is one of the things that Chris, one of the people that helped draft this and lobby for it kind of looked at this as really the first domino to fall, right. I mean, this is this is a radical change in consumer demand and the way that laws have to now adapt to what we're going through. I mean, I think john Henderson said it in the YouTube channel, but earlier, like, it only took a global pandemic, for us to finally move the industry forward. Right and

39:00 And if you look at that, I think we are moving in the right direction. Now it's a move in the right direction, but you need you need a legit state to jump on board with this to make it matter. And I think we're the first logistic unit. Well, the thing is the the list of states you just listed off there nothing in the record, you mean like a large long Nabila? gorgeou, Florida, you're nice. No, I like that. And that's when it's gonna make the most difference, like because the no offense the other states, but they're, they're peanuts compared to those and like, I just have a feeling to those states are gonna iron fisted, you know, to keep it in their states as well. So is that right move in the right direction, but it's not there yet. Well, I mean, do you look at this as a move for that? Or is it a move to actually help distilleries? Right, this is this is another another way that we can look at putting more money back into the pocket of the distillers. We've, I don't know how many times we've talked about this on the show that the three tier system has been a problem.

40:00 That's why the secondary market exists because, you know, they it goes off to the distributor and distributor goes, Well, I don't know, like it goes to whatever kind of algorithm that they want to however they want to do it. This now puts a little more power to the distilleries, if they want to do it. Yeah, they are. But they still have to have the distributor to process the tax payments and stuff. So the distributor is going to charge something and get a little bit but it does, it's definitely great for the distiller because they're gonna keep more revenue, but the distributors have, because I doubt each distillery is gonna have their own, you know, maybe they will, but I don't see enough. I just don't see enough shipping demand with those states to justify having a dedicated team to deal with the tax implications of you know, shipping and cutting out the distributor as the current level, not just attacks the right building out three commerce capabilities, building out the team, that shipping everything dealing with the customer experience online and all that stuff. It's it's harder than people realize to just snap your fingers and do those things. I think

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Driftless Glen 51 Rye Whiskey

Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:30:24 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Driftless Glen 51 Rye Whiskey. This non-age stated rye whiskey is 102 proof and $60 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

BONUS: Bourbon Trends in Journalism with Aaron Goldfarb

Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:30:13 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3B9BXuy3k&w=560&h=315] In this special bonus podcast, we take a moment to talk to Aaron Goldfarb, whiskey and cocktail journalist and the author of Hacking Whiskey. We talk about his origins and how he got into journalism. The state of NYC at the moment during COVID-19. Then we talk about what led him into covering spirits, his thoughts on the secondary market crackdowns, some of his favorite articles, and where inspiration strikes. Show Notes:

Hacking Whiskey

Transcript

0:00 Alright, you knew I couldn't do a whole podcast without screwing up. You're gonna think I'm a boomer all these guys at home.

0:07 I'm Generation X. I swear it. Starts from the top.

0:22 Welcome to this special bonus episode of bourbon pursuit. We're all stuck at home during quarantine. So I can't think of a better way to make the time go by faster than bringing a few bonus podcasts to you all. In this episode, we're joined by Aaron Goldfarb. He's a renowned whiskey and cocktail writer. So you've likely come across many of his articles through vine pear, calm, esquire.com, whiskey advocate, bourbon plus, and many more. He has a book out called hacking whiskey and we talk about that later in the show as well. Now at the beginning of this podcast during that blooper, it sounded pretty good. Did that sound about normal? Well, it's about the sound a bit muffled because I

1:00 wasn't paying attention and didn't realize that Aaron was talking into his computer microphone instead of the external one. But don't worry just a few minutes in, we fix it and it all gets squared away. Now make sure that you are subscribed to our Facebook and YouTube channels because we are doing live streams pretty regularly now, and we'd love to have you join us. So enjoy this bonus episode and remember, keep those hands sanitized. We're all in this together. Cheers.

1:30 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, a special COVID-19 edition. Kenny here and we are talking with somebody that had tried to join us in the last roundtable but we had some technical difficulties so I wanted to reintroduce everybody to the man Aaron Goldfarb. So welcome back. Take us back to the show. Yeah, I think I might have faked those technical difficulties just because I wanted that one on one conversation with you. You know what? I you're you're making a little money.

2:00 blush a little bit. I appreciate the appreciate the kudos there. But honestly, we're happy to have you. You know, actually, I got a message from Ryan and Fred earlier. They're like, hey, Are we recording something tonight with Aaron? And because I just I just put it in our BP calendar. And Ryan was like, man, I hurt my back today. I can't make it. I feel so bad. And then, Fred's Fred's. So everybody probably knows that he's doing live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock. And he's like, he's like, I can't make it just let Aaron know that he's one of my favorite writers. And I was like, it's like it's okay guys. Like I can I think I can handle this on my own.

2:35 I don't get double team. Yeah, when we start talking about whiskey and it's an easy way to kind of get going. So I kind of want to you know, learn more about you, I guess, you know, we've I've read a lot of your stuff before, through various media outlets and everything like that. But you know, I, we don't really know much about you. So kind of talk about a little bit like about your entry, like, first into journalism. And then really what

3:00 got you into whiskey as well?

3:02 Yeah, you know, my entry into drinks writing and whiskey is kind of just consistent failure over 20 years I, I went to film school

3:12 at Syracuse and I wanted to be a filmmaker. I kicked around in the early aughts and Manhattan, writing screenplays and trying to make films that didn't work very well.

3:24 wrote a few novels those worked a little better. But this whole time, like any good writer, I was drinking heavily.

3:33 helps me get through the good times in the bed. Right? But unlike the other writers who might have been slugging handles of vodka, I thought, well, you know, there's a better way to get drunk.

3:44 And luckily, you know, I moved to Manhattan in 2001. And that was right as craft beer was emerging. That was right. As you know, the craft cocktail scene was emerging in New York, the epicenter of all places. That was as you

4:00 You know, bourbon was again becoming hot, you know, Pappy 15 comes out in 2004, I believe and you know, you can get on the shelves for 30 bucks or 50 bucks. And that was a lot of money to me back then. So I didn't buy as much of it as some of my friends that had normal jobs did at the time. But, you know, it's very lucky to just be old and growing up at the right time, that naturally I was in all these scenes at the same time.

4:33 So I developed a knowledge base. I never had any plans to write about this stuff.

4:39 You know, your college counselor or your high school counselor doesn't say, you too, can be a whiskey writer when you grow up.

4:46 You know, maybe they say that these days, but they weren't saying that in the late 90s and early 2000s.

4:53 You know, I think maybe David wonder was the only booze writer on planet earth Michael Jackson, maybe

4:59 I've heard that name.

5:00 Before I know Fred's talking about Michael Jackson before, and everybody wants to think of the pop singer, but no, there was somebody before that, that or maybe not before that, but still a person in the scene that was writing a lot about about Jackie and about cocktails. Yeah, you know, Lou Bryson, I guess was there, he's always been there.

5:18 But you know, I built this knowledge base. And then, you know, around

5:23 the late aughts, the early 2010s. Now, all of a sudden, the mainstream publications were realizing, you know, these things are red hot, and we haven't cultivated any writers that necessarily know about these things. So I was a writer, not a magazine writer, or website writer, and I knew these things. And so my first gig ever was for Esquire, I kind of fell backwards into one of the best, you know, in my opinion publications in in the history of America. And I was writing beer and whiskey and cocktail stuff for them. You know, from

6:00 I don't know 2008 2009 on and then I kind of worked myself backwards and started writing for more niche publications, you know paunch fine pair whiskey advocate bourbon plus, and, you know, everywhere I've written for everyone by now, you know, I'm sure I'll be fired from jobs and right for new ones I mean it's the life of a freelance writer you take what you get and move on to the next one. That's it's interesting to like just like fall into Esquire that's like somebody like in my world just saying like, Oh, I got my first job. It's a Google right it's like in the in the tech world. So I think it's it's really interesting and cool like how you want to do that so have you been Have you been in Manhattan in New York most your life or like his his New York something? Are you your homeboy, you Norco your whole life? No, I kind of have a weird growing up too. I'm, I believe, a fifth or sixth generation.

6:54 Born in New York, and I lived there till I was about three or four and then, you know, this was the early 80s

7:00 In New York City, which I don't know if you've heard there were some issues. My my family moved to Oklahoma City. So along with Fred, I would be the second Oklahoma regular. I'm here.

7:12 live there till high school then, you know, back to New York since then. And I went to college at Syracuse and upstate New York, and I've been in New York City, now Brooklyn, since 2001. And I've been a Brooklyn since 2014. And so you're also in the kind of like the epicenter of what's happening right now with the Coronavirus I mean, especially with I shouldn't say the episode that's actually in China, but I'm saying like in America, like where all the eyeballs are on right now. It's like where you're at because it's it's the most you know, between you and San Francisco. It's the most densely populated area inside of the United States and you know, the numbers that are coming out and staggering like, I'm assuming that like right now it's it's pretty chaotic, like you'd be able to just like, look out your window and just like to see the rat start scurrying because there's no people out like, kind of give us an idea of like, what what's

8:00 Life in New York City right now. Well, you know, it's funny, I'm, you know, I've had some professional successes in my life, you know, books and whatnot. And that doesn't lead to strangers from my past necessarily writing me but this everyone I've ever met in the world who's got my email or phone number has been messaging me i think i think people assume with all the death and whatnot. It's a zombie apocalypse here, but

8:30 you know, I, I go outside every day. Some days I take a jog. There are not a lot of people on the streets. I am in a quieter neighborhood in Brooklyn. I'm in Park Slope, which is a family friendly neighborhood, but it is. It's, you know, a brownstone neighborhood. It's not the sticks by any means. I don't know what it's looking like in Manhattan now. I haven't been there in a month and I'm not sure if I'll be there for another several months. But um,

8:56 yeah, the streets are empty.

8:59 There's a lot

9:00 around the block space by six feet to get into every supermarket I go, I go Trader Joe's he's going crazy for Trader Joe's during this and it's it's funny like you say that cuz I've noticed that even our Trader Joe's there's people like lined outside so we'll say I would never go to Trader Joe's because the aisle width and news York is incredibly tight so I kind of go to the places where I don't want anyone bumping into me getting close to me.

9:27 You know of course unlike a lot of places we shop in New York by carrying it home so I go to my you know, snobby supermarket across the street and I put as much as I can possibly carry and I don't even really think that hard about what the week of meals is going to look like. And today my family just ate a grilled chicken with you know, whatever scraps we could also find some days we're eating incredibly and others were not like we ordered delivery about once a week that's still very avid here.

10:00 If you haven't heard just about every great cocktail bar is delivering cocktails right now. I haven't done that a lot. Because I have lots of booze myself, as you can see, and I know to make cocktails, and I'd rather deliver him and not coming to my house, both for both of our sakes but um, you know, if if you

10:19 you know, if I didn't have a family, I would just be reading a book a day and writing an article a day and watching a movie every night and drinking some whiskey and 90 days later, I'd come out of this, but I'm living in a house with a three year old and a newborn, and a wife who's on conference calls 10 hours a day for her busy job. So it's it's very stressful. It's very hectic, I'm outside of this dwelling 30 minutes to an hour a day if I'm lucky.

10:46 And you know, that's life right now. It's it's for people that are single and alone. It's probably lonely and incredibly boring. For people with families. It's It's It's probably the most stressful

11:00 In aggravated and tense I've ever been, you know.

11:05 So I kind of want to get back into your a little bit of your your journey into bourbon and your journey into whiskey. Like Did you have a Sherpa along the way that kind of taught you? You know, because I can look behind you in the camera right here and I see a bunch of wild turkeys decades. You got some knobs you got, but I mean you got more Russell's picks than probably rare bird 101 so

11:28 that's, and that's that's part of it too. So kind of talk about like, who was who's kind of like taught you the ropes.

11:36 You know, I kind of have a weird Sherpa. It wasn't you know, an older gentleman. You know, a good buddy of mine from college. You know, we were talking about I was kicking around making, you know, $15,000 a year writing screenplays no one wanted he became a salesman from day one. And this is my friend Derek.

11:58 And, you know

12:00 He had a massive expense account. So he didn't know more than me. But he could afford to learn things on someone else's dime. And I mean, a massive expense account. You can't even get guess the number and I won't say it in case there's

12:18 lessons and causes Listen, well, he doesn't work there anymore. But in case any litigation is pending. No, he lived in DC, which, you know, of course, at the jack rose. We've heard about what's going on with them right now.

12:31 And we, you know, he'd come to New York a lot for business. And again, this was when the emergence of really great bars in New York were coming, you know, milk and honey 1999 pegu club, I think that's 2005.

12:48 PDT 2009. Now New York's never been a really great whiskey city. To be fair. There's just too many rich people that, you know, if jack rose existed in New York, it wouldn't exist on day two.

13:00 They just got to make their prices even higher than if that's what it takes. You literally cannot price trophy bottles high enough in New York to keep them in stock.

13:10 But anyways Derek, you know we'd come to New York and we just spent silly money trying every cocktail on the menu at PDT trying any good thing in the house and you know, in the in the arts in New York City

13:26 it was still a wine city. So, you know, things like Pappy were in George t stag and stuff you could, you know, get for a reasonable Port $20 report wasn't reasonable to me back then. But of course it was reasonable to people with money so you know, even when I wasn't a writer, even when I had absolutely no money, I tried every every great whiskey released from you know, the late 90s on I never owned any of these bottles till till you know the last decade when I actually started making money by

14:00 You know, I remember when Derek got I think a case of tornado survivor and just all this stuff we were we were trying all this stuff and I you know, we were both learning together on on his his company's time. I mean, learn the learn on a case of tornado I think that's your living right are you know the right people I mean that's that just kind of give us the whole thing of like, you know you never own a boat, but you have a friend that owns the boat. And even better if the friend owns the boat and someone else is paying for it. See, there you go. That's, that's 10 times better. 10 times better. You know. And there's one thing that you kind of mentioned right there about, you know, trophy bottles like in New York just being always astronomical and always rocket high. I mean, I'm assuming at this point, like you've given up the chase in regards to finding something around New York, you've got your local spot, or do you just rely on as you mentioned earlier, just like buying pics from some of your favorite people in the scene?

14:57 Yeah, well, you know writers like me.

15:01 are lucky I get to at least try everything

15:06 released because because companies send it out they don't necessarily send full bottles but Buffalo Trace since you know the B tech lineup every year and you know, every company wants you to taste their stuff.

15:18 And I like all that stuff if I ran into, you know, George t stags or hands at reasonable prices, I do buy them.

15:27 But you know, one of my favorite things to drink is is Russell's reserve pics and they're 50 bucks or 60 bucks. That's what I'm drinking most nights. That's what I was drinking earlier tonight. This is what I'm drinking right now.

15:40 Oh, there you go. The bourbon Community Roundtable internet friends pick. I thought I thought I'd kiss some ass. We'll take it. But you know, some of this stuff is extraordinary. wilderness trail is extraordinary right now and even though I have you know, thousand dollar bottles in my house that I really don't give a crap about them being

16:00 drained. I'm reaching for wilderness travel right now I'm reaching for Russell's reserve single barrels almost every single night that I'm drinking.

16:09 So, you know, I don't I don't know why. That's what interests me. You know, Blake said to me, you know, he's drank so much great stuff that he kind of enjoys the rawness of young young craft whiskey. And I wouldn't say I enjoy that that much. But you know, wilderness trail has a flavor profile, you're just not used to, you know, how many more, you know, aged mdps can you drink? How many more you know?

16:33 weeders from Buffalo Trace, can you drink you know, at a certain point, it's fun to try new flavor profiles. And that's one reason I think you're seeing a lot of bourbon geeks get into Armagnac or wine or other stuff just because they're bored with with their palates. After you've drank everything. You're just like, you know, I need something else to excite me. Yeah, that's true. I think you I think you bring up a pretty good point too, especially when we talk to a lot of people in the whiskey realm. And I think it was probably what

17:00 Three years ago, maybe two years ago when this whole like MGP craziness, like what? A Well, I mean, just it went off the off the rocker. And there are groups that were searching and hunting and just trying to find this, you know, anything over 10 year MGP and just clearing out these smaller distilleries that had anything left of it. And people are really hung up on it. And, you know, when they look at even like what we did, and starting on whiskey line and saying, like, Well, why don't you go MGP right, because everybody else was doing it. Right. And, and I think that's, hopefully it's at the point that you people will start getting that sort of fat or palate fatigue of trying the same thing over and over and over again. I think Blake's a little bit of a special character thinking that like, Yes, I want young, young Raul whiskey.

17:43 I wanted to see if he get that tattooed on his back or something like that. But um, I think I think you do bring up a solid point there because there's a lot of not only great values, which you just talked about in the Russell's world, and you get a lot of diversity, especially with those pics

18:00 There's a lot of good stuff coming out from younger distilleries now that are starting. And I think this is a while we see the the plunge of MGP stock in B, you know why I think people are going to start changing their their minds here in a little bit. Because there has been this idea that, oh, like, I'm not buying gun whiskey, I'm not buying something that's not from Kentucky. That's I, I was that person like two years ago, maybe even three years ago, I was that person too. But now like, we're starting to get to the point where a lot of these distilleries around the country outside of Kentucky are having products that are four years old that are their knockouts, I mean, they're fantastic. And we're going to get to the point here in the next, maybe another two, three years, where the shelves are just gonna be littered full of just goodies like that. Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, a lot of people used to think craft whiskey sucked because it wasn't old enough. And now you have craft whiskey.

19:00 That's you know, and it's second decade and some of it still sucks which proves

19:06 the reason it sucked was not because it was young and then you have wilderness trail and new riff which are you know, four or five years and they're they're incredible you know a lot of craft whiskey I drink one time just to see what it tastes like well there's Tron New Roof I actually reach for over you know, the big boys

19:25 So, you know, it wasn't he that a lot of these brands that I will not name unless you you know, get me in a bar, not on your podcast were bad was because they were bad because they were distilled poorly because maybe they were fermented poorly because who knows why.

19:41 But you know, wilderness trail is as certainly shown that youth is not

19:47 any excuse for not being great. So so you know a lot about whiskies we can get that we can look behind you can read a bunch of your articles about whiskey, but you make a lot of different articles about mez cows and

20:00 About everything, like, kind of talk about your journey into other spirits like, it's it's cool to have your buddy that helps you get into this wonderful world of bourbon that probably spoiled you beyond belief. But then how do you how do you get into all these other sex of like figuring out I know you've done stuff on like the perfect Martini or stuff like that to like, kind of talk about, like, how do you get into the realm of doing that as well? Well, the cynical answer is I'm a freelance writer, and every article I write makes money so

20:32 you tell me what to write about. I'm in exactly. I'm writing an article right now. I'm sorry, Fred. Pay to pay was good.

20:41 But no, you know, I have a theory that guys like us.

20:47 We collected things and we were obsessed with things from day one. I collected baseball cards, comic books, anything and I collected them as hard as but I needed full sets. I needed everything I needed to know every any passion I need.

21:00 To know everything, and then you know on to the next one. So at a certain point, you don't know everything about whiskey That's impossible. You're still learning stuff. That's why I think a lot of people have moved back towards towards dusties. Because, you know, once you've kind of mastered the modern whiskey culture, you got to start learning. Oh, that distillery produced that Oh, that's where you know, you know, stilts or whatever. And then you start moving on to other things and other tastes.

21:29 You know, as I said, Armagnac has become an inexplicably kind of big amongst, you know, upper echelon geeks. You know, it's just fun. I do drink neat whiskey almost every single night. I'm not, you know, reaching for other stuff every single night, but I like to learn

21:47 other things.

21:50 You know, I drink a lot of rum rums a very weird category as I'm sure if you've read ROM curious. You might know Yeah.

22:00 down around here somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

22:03 A lot of cool things in ROM. You know, I'm Mike my quarantine drink of choice has actually been gin cocktails, which are fun. Yeah, I will say that I am a big fan of gin cocktails. It's just something that is it's light refreshing guys. Actually gimlet is like my number one. That's what I always reach for. That's actually my my wife and his official cocktail of quarantine the gimlet. See, we can hang out. It's like It's like Gatorade and cocktail form. And I'll tell you

22:34 and shout out to new riff. They've got a barrel aged gin, and that's what I've been drinking and it really is. Yes, it's fantastic with it. I have a bottle of that over there. I like their gin, but I've never thought to use a barrel aged and am I gimlet? Alright, tomorrow. Here you go. We're creating new traditions around here already. Yeah. So no, I you know, I'm just a fan of everything except vodka actually, but I will write about it.

22:57 You know if if something's interesting, I want

23:00 Drink it if something's tasty, I want to eat it. If something's good to read, I want to read it. You know, there's lots of things in this world I don't just don't understand people that you know, kind of get stuck in their lanes and don't try to enjoy and learn as much as they can about everything. It's It's fun to learn things. I mean, that's kind of the most fun thing is, you know, I'm trying like everyone else. I'm also getting into arm and Yak and it's fun to start at zero. And you know, after a year ago, I kind of know a little about Armenia. I could I could tell someone about that. Oh, I know a little bit about mezcal. I don't know a lot about mezcal, you know, that article you're referencing, we did a blind tasting with two bonafide experts. And, you know, I think I have a pretty good palate. So I can say what I think is good and bad, but I can't tell you about you know, the varietals of a golf a or you know why this one tastes like this or where this grew or you know, the different ways of fermentation but they knew all that, you know, and it's inspiring to think, wow, I could learn all that, you know, bourbon kind of really only has one way to make it

24:00 mezcal is infinite. You know, rum has so many. Just lots of stuff to learn and so little time, except now when we're all sitting home.

24:10 So you're, you're like a leech of information is that what it comes down to? Because you're able to kind of just talk to a lot of these people that are really, really know it alls in this world and just kind of really take their story and harness it and develop something that is appealing to a visual reader. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll never convince my parents that the most fun thing about writing about alcohol is is actually getting free education is not free booze, but, you know, it's, it's really great. You know, some of my story ideas are literally like, you know, I'd like to know a little bit more about that. And, you know, it's like a con game, I can reach out to the most important person on the topic, and they're going to talk to me if you're an average off the street, and you email the most important, you know, Armagnac maker Gen distiller and said, Can I talk to you for an hour they'd be like,

25:00 know why, but you know, they'll move mountains to talk to me just because I will write about them. So, you know, it's it's not just a way to pay the bills. It's not just a way to get free drinks. It's, it's, it's a free education on topics that interest me and you know, after over a decade of this stuff, I still have a passion for it all. So when we get back to like a whiskey article, is there one that you've written over the years that you look back and you think like, man, I loved writing that one like was, you know, was it the person? Was it the? Was it the whiskey? Like, what was it that that really like, drove you for that article? You know, my favorite articles are kind of goofy or dumber, less prestigious ones. I mean, I will admit, like the one you did with, what was it? Janae Yeah. Janae. And she made that ridiculous, old fashioned way back in the day that went viral. And you kind of said like, all right, where's she now sort of thing? Yeah, I mean, those are my favorite to write.

26:01 You know, I can I can write a, you know,

26:04 interview with a distiller or an article on how a whiskey is made, you know, in my sleep but you know, the kind of weird ones one of my favorite articles I wrote for ponch probably four or five years ago was the history of when it became very trendy in New York and Miami for bars have beds in them literal beds in them.

26:23 And those stories are always very hard to report. You know, if you if you want to write a story about you know, a distillery today, it's very easy to get these people on the phone to talk to you, they'll talk to you all day. But if you you know, I wrote a history of of foam parties a few weeks ago for fine pair, How the hell do you find a guy in the 90s who decided you know, we should blast foam into these a booth in nightclubs. It's not easy.

26:49 And it's, it's, you know, I could write a lot easier stories I could write, you know, what we call listicles Top 10 whiskies and, and, you know, get paid And work for an hour but you know, I just thought

27:00 have a passion for finding these really stupid, weirdo stories and bringing them to you. I just had flashbacks of like Panama City Beach, Florida next spring break. It's just what happened right there.

27:15 I can't wait to read that article and it comes out. So there's nothing that you'd mentioned right there about like, top 10 lists. And it seems like that is that seems to be a driver for a lot of lot of articles. It seems that it I mean, it could be articles, it could be YouTube videos, it's anything anything as a top whatever. It just drives people to it. I mean, do you have a like a love hate relationship with it?

27:40 Yeah, I mean, you know, every time uh, you know,

27:45 Esquire, GQ, you know, best whiskeys to drink right now. 10 best, whatever lists come out, you know, I see the Facebook comments I'm not seeing articles written by me articles written by anyone. And people resume their, you know, the, the brand paid for them or whatnot.

28:01 It's it's not that insidious but you know it's it's kind of like an ecosystem. You know, the brand hires a publicist and pays them, the publicist and bottles to a writer. The writer drinks the bottle, the writer wants to keep the publicist happy. The publishing company asked for a top 10 whiskies list. They publish the last 10 whiskies the last 10 publicists they like sent to them, rinse repeat, so I don't really like that stuff.

28:27 publicists probably hate me more than most writers in New York because, you know, kind of

28:32 bitchy and I don't play those games. But you know, every writer on planet earth writes listicles whether it's David wonder richer, you know, whoever, you know, they pay the bills. They have good SEO. Everyone argues about them. It doesn't matter what website it is. If you write the top 10 whiskeys right now it'll do pretty well for the day. I try to write those as little as possible. They do not interest me

28:59 if I'm doing

29:00 Those kind of lists I tried to make them interesting. I did a

29:04 about every year or two, I try to pick the best whiskey in every state for Esquire.

29:10 That'll keep you busy drinking. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. And you know, people get furious. That's not North Dakota's best whiskey house as this guy ever tasted, blah, blah, blah. The answer is probably no, I've tasted maybe one or two Caesar, but I'm trying my damnedest unlike a lot of writers who are listening, you know, but as I said, the last 10 whiskies they've gotten the mail.

29:33 But, you know, it can be very tough to be thoughtful in this industry. When a lot of

29:42 you know guys like me, or girls like me that get paid to do it can kind of just phone it in, you know, the amateurs actually put more work in it because they're doing it for a passion not to make money. So you know, whisky blogs are some of the best smartest out there.

29:59 Whereas

30:00 You know, a lot of professional websites and magazines, it was just, you know, Hey, could you write this over the next hour? Well, I don't know anything about vodka. Okay, well, right, it's

30:09 go to the store, get five bottles, review it come up with a list. Yeah. I mean, is that is that something that in the writing world, I mean, I guess I can kind of even picture it my own world where it very beginning of my career, like I was gung ho, and I was trying to cut my teeth doing grunt work and trying to, you know, doing a lot of like, like, really hard kind of it stuff and like working insane kind of hours. And then at some point, you're just like, Okay, give it up. I'll focus on what I'm good at. And then, you know, kind of just like, let the professionalism take off from there. I guess in like, the growth pattern of what a writer is like is does it kind of have that same sort of trajectory or path in regards of, you know, you start off early, as you kind of mentioned as an amateur trying to like write a top 10 list and then you're like, Okay, I'm done with that, like, I'm going to try to find some more

31:00 Interesting. Well, I mean, food and drink writings unlike any other, you know, we're so close to the subjects, you know, we have friendship with bartenders and distillers and whatnot.

31:15 And if we weren't doing it, we'd still you know, drink these things and go to these bars. I don't think anyone would, you know, hang out with politicians if they weren't a political reporter. You know, and there's, you know, the famous thing that just sports writers hate sports by the time they've been a sports writer so long.

31:33 Yeah, you know, when you're early on trying to break into writing, and it's probably different now.

31:38 Or maybe it's even tougher now. You'll take anything someone gives you it just seems like so hard to get paid a literal dollar to write something. So it's less early on for a lot of these writers and I noticed it amongst younger younger writers right now about finding your voice and trying to do in anything interesting.

32:00 And more letting you know the site's dictate you. And the funny thing is, if you came to these sites as a, or magazines or newspapers as a 22 year old with these outlandish ideas with these crazy ideas with these ideas that no one else is writing, you probably have a better chance of selling it, you'd probably have a better chance of making good money

32:21 and it took me a while to figure that out.

32:25 figure out exactly like Oh, you're gonna pay me more I'm gonna go over this way. Yeah, wait, I'm gonna give Redbird a shout out. Yeah, go for it. David's a good friend of the show. So he's an adult and I can see you've got all you got a lot of Turkey breaks over. Okay, yeah. wrestle wrestle the muscle there. so fantastic. So I guess another question is, is that you know, once you start getting into this world, and yet, I can always understand as a writer, you have to be conscious of, you know, where the money's coming from. And so that's what you focus on. But is there something about whiskey that keeps you intrigued or keeps you kind of always tied to it?

33:01 We're like, What is it? What is it about whiskey or bourbon that like keeps you wanting to come back for more? Well, the one thing I don't write a lot about is mine. And I never really understood why I don't dislike wine. I'm not a connoisseur. And then I realized and I said to my

33:18 editor, puncture Italia, I just don't find wine funny. But whiskey is so funny. And if you've read a lot of my stuff, it's about you know, secondary markets. It's about Turkey dues. It's about you know, California gold. It's about infinity bottles. It's about, you know, geeks lining up at jack rose, even though you know, there's a pandemic, you know, there's just so many funny characters. The distillers aren't necessarily funny character characters, but they're not necessarily funny characters. But the collectors the the people that drink it and pursue it and and the people that listen to podcasts about it. They're just funny characters.

34:00 Probably a funny character to look, I live in a 1200 square foot apartment with two children and I got an entire room of whiskey. That's, that's, that's not probably a good use space.

34:12 But um, yeah, it just infinitely cracks me up to to go on the internet every day and just see what whiskey geeks are talking about doing and drinking and trading and arguing about meaning and all that stuff. And maybe one day it won't, but it's really funny to me. And, you know, if you're writing a boot story, and there's not something funny about it, it just doesn't interest me that much. As Sure. There are some of the good memes that come out of whiskey and come out of bourbon, especially, you know, even those secondary markets where people get butthurt. And then you've got the the other groups where there's people that basically have court hearings about you know, stuff like that. I'm kind of like, what at what other point would people just have this like fake court system over a transaction of bourbon that happened on the black market, like

35:00 It's it's comical. Yeah, I mean, you know, my like, career like, ethos has been trying to explain this weird world to like normal human beings like no you you first of all you have to know like 10,000 acronyms.

35:15 Yep. Yeah, I always I always thought that there'd be like a good t shirt like just full of acronyms like everywhere. You have to have like a stock market ticker in your head. What? Happy 23 Pv w 23 is now worth 19,000 You idiot. Then you just have to I mean, you have to know like if I don't pay attention for a week I come back and I'm I'm I'm messaging my friend Derek who's still locked in on it. Like what the hell is going on with this? Is that a real thing? You know? Is this is this will it box club a real thing? And you know, that was I tell you what, that's been one of the greatest recent ones when it's you can just tell the the oh geez versus the new people that are into it. They're like, Where's the signup button? I don't see it. Yeah, well, that's you know, that's

36:00 Also really funny to see you know, it drives me nuts because you know even though I said you know from the get go I was trying very good stuff I still you know, paid my dues and spent money on regular Maker's Mark and odd and stuff and these guys who were you know not even drinkers last week or you know, thinking they can just go from like nothing to balling out with you know George t stag or whatnot, it's like you know, slow down

36:28 train your palate start with 80 proof let's, let's get you up to

36:33 this level. I will say that is is like one of the corner cuts that you are, you know, corners that you can cut here in the in the whiskey world is that if you come with a big enough checkbook, you could have one of the best collections that are out there in bourbon, you know, because it's still, you know, especially in regards of what scotch prices and everything like that our whiskey prices even Pappy 2318 1900 dollars a bottle. That's that's a drop in the bucket for what some scotches go for so

37:00 If you come with a big enough checkbook, you could have one of the most insane bourbon collections that are out there just by buying directly off the secondary. Yeah, that's why it cracks me up you know?

37:10 Every so often there's yeah well constantly there's How do I get Pappy post have money. I mean, it's not hard.

37:17 You know, my friend of mine, Alex Bachman, he, I think he still does he used to

37:24 fill bars with with with spirits that was his job to find, you know, a new bar opens and they want the you know, most sick list he'd fill him up and you know, everyone Oh, we got the full Pappy collection. We'll just give him $10,000 and he can do that. It's not very hard. What's hard is finding 1960s tomorrow. What's hard is finding you know, 1950 stencil well, or what's hard is finding, you know, obscure scotches you've never heard of, or Japanese releases of, you know, whatever. That's hard buying, you know, Van Winkle or B tech that comes out every single year. You just need market rates.

38:00 Money. And again, it's not that much. You're right. I know you've written on the secondary market, but I want to kind of get your idea of like, Where is your stance on it in regards of how it was taking down or how it was kind of like ripped out? Like, was it a good thing for distilleries? Is it bad for the overall ecosystem of bourbon? Like, what's your what's your take on that?

38:18 Well, you know, I used to say, I was a free market capitalist. Now I'm stuck in a pandemic.

38:26 You know, you don't really see the secondary market for new scotch. And why is that? It's because it's priced correctly.

38:35 A lot of bourbon is not priced correctly by the distilleries.

38:41 Because they want to be the good guys who, you know

38:44 20 years ago, there was no such thing as bourbon that cost more than $50. And you know, Blanton's you know, in the 90s didn't sell for $30. So they remember that time, and they remember that time is bourbon being in every man's drink. And so

39:00 They don't want to charge what it should cost.

39:05 And, you know, I'm very friendly with Buffalo Trace, but I don't think you know, releasing their press release every single year and saying MSRP, Pappy 15 $80 or whatever it is, I don't know what it is right now. I don't think that makes him look like a good guy. It just makes everyone else fight over what the accurate prices.

39:26 So I don't begrudge anyone for charging what they charge. I don't begrudge anyone for paying what they pay.

39:33 And I think it's kind of ridiculous that the distilleries get mad at so called gouging. Well, they should price it what its price because no one's bought an $80. Pappy and, you know, a million years unless they live in a control state I suppose and won a lottery, which is likewise absurd. These places. These places would need lotteries if it was priced correctly.

39:56 So now, you know, I think that the the online Secretary

40:00 The market does the job that the distilleries didn't do and that everyone's mad at the liquor stores for trying to do.

40:08 Do you think that this is also a play by some of the distilleries to say, well,

40:15 let's look at the long game here. Let's not try to make a quick buck off of it and price it at the market instead. And you and you know that you've seen pretty much every distilleries putting in multimillion dollar expansions and everything and so they're betting on this on the long term. And it's it's the Amazon model, right? It's it's like let's let's do, you know, massive scale and not try to do you know, just short bursts of high volume? Yeah, you know, that that's true, and that's, that's a fine way to work. You know, how many total van winkles are released a year 80 to 100,000 compared to how many Buffalo Trace Eagle rare whatever. So you know, how much of a moneymaker is it for them, whether it's

41:00 Priced correctly or priced at whatever they want to call the MSRP. Yeah, I think that's a fine strategy and I guess honestly, Buffalo Trace is maybe the only distillery that has to deal with that for roses one release a year old forester one release a year, you know, all these places with one release here.

41:21 have to figure out what it what it should cost. So, you know, if that's what they want to do, I think that's fine. It feels a little hypocritical for them to price it at, you know, a very low MSRP and then get mad at people for pricing. It is the correct one. I likewise think it's silly for

41:40 liquor stores, though to you know, proudly put up their George t stag for $900. It's like, you know, I think you have better goodwill. If you sold it to your best customer for $90. I think you'd have better goodwill if you figured out a way to get it to a true lover for $90. Instead of making that extra three or $400.

42:00 But you know, I people,

42:03 economist aren't necessarily opening liquor stores. So

42:07 that's, that's for sure. Everyone's trying to figure out what works best for them and and pays the bills. Well I think the moral of the story there is that every other distillery needs to come out more special releases. Because if you do that, then they just keep following that same exact trail, every release should be a special release, right? Absolutely. Every bottle of special bottle.

42:30 And so I'm gonna just kind of like go back to like one of your stories real quick, because you had mentioned the California Gold stuff. And I know the person that makes that he's a good friend of mine. And I know that when you write stuff, and whether it be about secondary, whether it be about something like that, you might get a lot of blowback catch a lot of flack online, like have you ever like felt like Oh God, like people are really attacking me over something like this? Yeah, I mean, you know,

43:00 If you're a writer on the internet, you get called an idiot everyday your life.

43:05 But if you feel like you're exposing Fight Club or something, well, you know, it's tough because you know, I'm both a part of the hobby, I enjoy drinking these things. And I don't want to ruin the hobby, but I'm also looking for interesting stories. And after writing these stories for years, it's impossible to ruin the hobby. California gold was again, something I drink at my friend Derek's house.

43:28 And for a year or two, I was like, you got to get me in touch with our friend.

43:36 And, you know, he's he didn't want he didn't want press and then for whatever day when he said, Okay, I'll talk to you.

43:44 And

43:46 my daughter was a newborn then and it was about the worst behave she's ever been. And I was conducting this really tough score of an interview while she was just losing her shit. And yet, it did very well and

44:00 Now people I see a story came out and

44:04 can't even remember a literal magazine citing California Gold the other day and it didn't even it acted like everyone knew what that was. It was very weird, but I've become friends with Mr. California gold.

44:17 We talk occasionally. He's always got interesting takes on things. And I think it's great even though most of the commenters under Facebook will say it's not that good.

44:28 Well, most of the commenters are probably the ones that never actually had a chance to try it. And that's what it comes down. Yeah. So joke's on you with that one.

44:37 Whiskey. Awesome. So, oh, yes, yes. Make sure you're talking about hacking whiskey real quick. I want to give you a plug for that. Sorry for the shameless plug. No, at least through this is actually a perfect book for this time. came out in 2008 18. has a lot of my funny stories like California Gold, infinity bottles, I think I think I'm the first person read about infinity bottles. Maybe the second I don't know.

44:59 But it's

45:00 Really funny geeky stories plus experiments you can do from home blends.

45:08 Like you know, Travis hills.

45:11 The four roses thing Yeah, barrel proof yellow label. Yeah, really fun. you acquire every single four roses and make a barrel proof yellow label. And we did that and he also tried to do creating his own Moray mirages or marriages or whatever they're called, looking all the small batch limited edition selects and then actually trying to go and find those exact age ranges and try to do the race and ages and stuff. Yeah, I wrote about Yeah, I wrote a punch article about that too.

45:41 Where Blake mentions that he likes to Vitamix his blends because he puts them together and people were furious about that.

45:47 But yeah, there's fun experiments fat washing which is infusing you know, meats and butters and stuff into whiskey for cocktail, smoking cocktails.

45:57 Making foods out of whiskey. It's it's a very fun book. If you're

46:00 stuck inside with nothing to do except a lot of whiskey and how am I going to use this for everything I'm going to do for the next 90 days? A lot of fun experiments. There you go find it on Amazon I'm guessing Yes. Like everything else and they're still delivering so you don't have an excuse go by hacking with order it right now. It'll be there tomorrow. Well, you know, Aaron, I want to know like I said, this is a really good opportunity to kind of catch up talk about more I guess more about you your writing career and as well as just talk about whiskey in general, and kind of get an update on what's happening instead in New York. So it's been a pleasure getting to talk to you this time. It was fun. We didn't have any kids run in and yell at me.

46:40 Technically, I could hurt I hurt I hurt him a little bit the background so yeah, I mean, we'll we'll clean it a little bit and post but yeah, it turned out I think the biggest technical difficulties my quarantine beard.

46:53 are you growing it out until you until you can walk outside and and shake hands with somebody again? Or until my wife divorces me?

47:01 Whichever one comes first. No a day for whichever one comes first. There you go keep that razor handy though. Yeah.

47:10 Well Aaron, that was awesome talking to you. If anybody like wants to get in contact you or wants to, you know follow you on social media how they gonna do that?

47:20 If they want to yell offensive things at me Twitter's fine at Aaron Goldfarb,

47:25 also at Aaron Goldfarb and Instagram.

47:29 And you can probably figure out my email address too if you want to send me crazy tips about blends you're making or weirdo stuff going on in the secondary market that I can turn into a story and get everyone mad at me for ruining bourbon. I guess it's another thing is like, do you actually search Instagram to be like, Oh, that's interesting. Like I could write an article about that. Like, is that are there ideas that pop up like that? Yeah, like like most human beings on planet earth when I have nothing to do, I'm looking down at my phone looking at Instagram, not necessarily whiskey stores.

48:00 But there's just so many bottles out there and things so quickly become hot. You're like why is this cool guy making a big deal about something that what is this?

48:13 And I usually as Derek I say what is it?

48:17 You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you see weird stuff on Instagram and you file it away I usually screenshot it

48:25 to pay attention to it because I'm usually looking at Instagram late at night after a few and the next day go Is that something and you know if you see it happen a few more times. Okay, now you got a trend. Let's follow this. See what's going on. But yeah, yeah, that's a good place to find stories. See if you can get inspiration from anywhere then. Anywhere just when you're in the house, the only place you can get inspiration from is your phone.

48:46 Awesome. So Aaron, thank you again for coming on the show is a pleasure to have you. Make sure you go you follow Aaron on other social media channels. You can follow bourbon pursuit as well. And we'll see you next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

248 - Delivering the Online Bourbon Buying Experience with Cory Rellas, CEO of Drizly

Thu, 09 Apr 2020 10:30:04 GMT

As we’ve seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it’s now become necessary for the spirits industry to adopt technology and delivery services to stay alive. Cory Rellas, the CEO of Drizly, was on the forefront of this years ago. This podcast dives into their business model and how they are helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could mean for Drizly, and if there is an opportunity to extend this business model into cannabis.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the power of packaging.
What is Drizly?
How did you come up with this idea?
What's the timeline?
What was the state of the industry when you got started?
What were the challenges?
Why did you go through New York early on?
What is your big selling point to retail locations?
Any pricing restrictions to prevent gouging?
Talk about pricing transparency.
How are you using the data you are acquiring?
Are you sharing the data?
Do you have a CRM?
How are the products delivered to the consumer?
How are you dealing with competition?
Are you all interested in getting bought out?
What's the end game?
What happens if shipping laws change?
What is your best selling bourbon?
What are the top 5 selling spirit categories?
What's your favorite bourbon?
How do you work with brands?
What needs to change to get more people buy alcohol online?
Are you lobbying at all?
Is there an opportunity with cannabis?
What would the perfect alcohol market look like?
What's the latest trend?

0:00 To be the best, you have to learn from the best. Louisville and the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry than from a university located in its epicenter. The University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit.

0:36 I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selection has been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head.

0:54 You said it wrong. It goes bourbon bourbon, bourbon, bourbon bourbon

0:58 right brown, brown, brown brown. At

1:01 least that's what we want to hear.

1:03 I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't.

1:21 What's going on everybody? It's Episode 248 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We just got just a little bit of news to run through. And as you can guess most of it relates to COVID-19. Pennsylvania State run liquor stores are reopening, but only with online and shipped to home orders. Until further notice. Customers can purchase up to six bottles per transaction from a reduced catalog from thousand top selling wines and spirits from the website. All orders must be shipped to home or non store addresses, and only one order per address will be fulfilled per day. This is possibly in reaction to the losses now being seen by the government in an article Hosted by Trib live.com. For the two weeks of not operating, the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has lost an estimated $91 million in revenue, or around six and a half million dollars per day. quite staggering numbers. And the Virginia ABC has announced that for a limited period of time Virginia distilleries are authorized to ship their spirits to consumers and licensees in Virginia. Now, there's some legal mumbo jumbo about addendums to these distillery store agreements, but it's another big win for consumers and for these distilleries to help everyone get through this period, you can get more information on shipping, including a full list of all 45 Virginia distilleries on the Virginia ABC website. figures released by data analysts IWA ASR have found that for the week ending in March 22 of 2020, that total beverage alcohol sales grew by 40% in value and 33% volume compared to the same period in 2019. And this is to account for the stockpiling that we've seen during COVID-19 Spirits available in one liter one and a half and 1.75 formats have outpaced smaller variants, and the Ws are noted that the larger size formats and value brands tend to benefit from panic buying, as people look to stock their home with as much as possible in the light of a lockdown. According to IWC, or whiskey brands like wild turkey Crown Royal jack daniels bullet and Maker's Mark have been the ones that have seen this most increased purchasing. Alright, now on to something not about the Coronavirus Buffalo Trace distillery continues its exploration into oak tree varietals with the release of its old charter oak Tinker PIN code. This species of oak is native to the Midwest United States. These large Chica Pin Oak trees are often found in parks and larger States after the Chica pin barrels were filled with Buffalo Trace mash number one they were then aged for nine years before being bottled at 93 proof of a suggested retail price is going to be a $70 MSRP and like all other releases in this series, supplies will be limited. And the chicken folk bourbon will be available in limited quantities starting in April. Now today's episode is one that I'm personally really excited about. I'm like a broken record on here preaching how the spirits industry needs a digital revolution. As we've seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it's now become a necessity for this industry to even stay alive. And Cory rellis, the CEO of drizzly, he was on the forefront of this years ago. And this podcast dives into how he even thought of the idea into their business model and how they're how they're actually helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online, and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could actually mean for drizzly. And is there an opportunity to even extend this business model into cannabis. Now if you haven't noticed yet, we are doing lots of impromptu live streams that help give you some more entertainment during this time. We've done virtual happy hours with our patrons Our community, late night blind tastings and more. So make sure that you're subscribed to our YouTube channel to get the notifications and also, consider joining Patreon. We're doing zoom meetings to help connect our community. And we'd love to have you there. Check it out. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Also, don't forget to catch Fred MiniK on his live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock pm eastern time. They've been highly entertaining and educational. enjoy today's episode. Stay safe. Stay inside. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

5:36 Hey everyone, Joe here again. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. lift your spirits with barrel bourbon.

5:50 I'm Fred minich. And this is above the char this past week. I'm just telling you, my brain has been suffering. I've been working so hard on I've been doing two live streams a day on YouTube. I've been writing a lot for Forbes, I've been blogging as much as I possibly can. And I hit a wall I hit a wall where I had no ideas left me none in the tank. And I want to thank every single one of you who responded to my query on Twitter, where I simply asked Can you please give me some ideas for above the char? I got so many great ones. I'm going to start with this one from the whiskey stop. It's at the whiskey stop on Twitter. And he wants me to talk about the power of packaging. A unique shape of the bottle. Does it have a twist top a synthetic cork, maybe natural cork a great or unusual label? Did it influence your purchase was a good did it suck? Did the packaging work? its magic on you. What a brilliant question and what a time Hundred like truth is that packaging matters. Oh my God does packaging matter. And let me tell you if you overthink packaging, you will fail and that is where you fail. Most of all when it comes to packaging, what I have noticed is is that many people try to target women and they do it with like a like a fluffy pink or they've got some kind of like special dressing on there and they have like rainbow colors, and women rejected every single time. Another one is when someone tries to be overly fancy, they get like a crystal, a major crystal top, a really fancy label, and then they fill it with like two year old MGP whiskey

7:49 adds a big fail.

7:51 So the packaging always has to match what's inside the bottle and the packaging cannot overstate Something so the overselling is the case of a brand that went too far with trying to attract women. And the whiskey not matching would be the decanter or the bottle that had shit whiskey in it. And the bottle was just stunning. And I've always believed that to me, you can measure a bottle by what is fascinating it or the closure. I am such a fan of natural cork you can read my cover story and bourbon plus magazine to get an idea of like, what goes into making court but I am really connected to the earth and I love I love the sustainability aspect of cork. And when I hear that pop when I pull the bottle next to my ears and I go that is an undeniable sound that makes my mouth water and makes me want a sip. A screw top doesn't do that. Lot of the synthetic corks are like stuck in there like they don't make that same sound. And the glass tops that are starting to become more popular. I could never get those things off. I have to pry them off with the damn, you know, butter knife. To me it all starts with with a good cork on the top. Now people can argue all day long of the merits of cork, but I'm just here to tell you I know what I like. And I like hearing this sound every time I open a bottle. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, listen, I'm bound to continue to run out of ideas with this Coronavirus stuff going on. Because I'm not stopping. I am driving content every single day. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube and give me some ideas for above the char I'll select my favorite and read it in the next episode. Next week, cheers.

10:05 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred in our virtual hangout space. And today we are talking about a topic that we know far or should say, we know all too well, you know, when we talked about this on the roundtables, we talked about it, you know, with distributors, we talked about what is the future consumption and delivery of alcohol really going to look like for the the mass market and we look at, you know, coming from a tech industry myself, we try to figure out, like, how can we get, you know, our product into the hands of consumers faster than anyone else. And what we're gonna be talking about today is really talking to a company that's on the forefront of all this. And when we look at this, it's not only just being able to get in the hands of consumers, but you can get it in less than an hour sometimes. So I think it's gonna be a really cool conversation of how we really dive into this. So Fred, and Ryan I mean, you know, we've we've talked about shipping before, but have you all have y'all ever had a service delivered bottles to you yet?

11:08 No, not yet. But I'm super excited to learn about it. I'm fortunate I live like a half mile from a liquor store so we can get it pretty easy. But yeah, I mean, the liquor industry moves at a snail's pace. So you know, there's a lot of friction points and getting bottles delivered to your house and I've had plenty of bottles delivered to my house just not legally. But I would like to make it legal so yeah, I'm really excited to talk to them about this today.

11:36 Yeah, I've had I've had quite a bit sent to me I also you know, being being a personality on the spirits network, they regularly send me stuff and they you know, that's part of their, their whole thing is that you join and you get to be become a Club member, and they ship barrel pics and stuff to you.

11:56 And so let's go ahead introduce our guests today. So today, we Have Cory rellis Cory is the CEO of drizzly, you might have seen him or the app, you've seen probably their logo and a lot of liquor stores are the ones that deliver bottles from liquor stores to your doorstep. So Cory, welcome to the show.

12:15 Thanks for having me, guys.

12:16 So was that a decent elevator pitch? Or do you have a better one? That's usually us.

12:21 It's a common misconception. So I would actually like to give you my elevator pitch.

12:25 Please do please do. Yes.

12:27 Yeah. So So actually, drizzly was formed a lot with a lot of knowledge around the regulations that you guys have been discussing. I know we're going to talk about that further. So I'll put that in the back for a minute now, but the model is actually different than people think we don't do delivery. And really what drizzly prides itself on is digitizing the inventory of local liquor stores, so that a consumer can come online, shop across their stores and find a larger selection, comparison pricing and ultimately get that delivered to them. But the delivery is done by either the retailer themselves or Third parties, that door dashes Postmates shifts to the world. And so we're really a tech middleman empowering the three tiers, but not necessarily changing the status quo.

13:10 Cool. So it's kind of like a an Open Table kind of concept for liquor stores, maybe you're kind of looking at what's available and can then kind of pick and choose that way.

13:20 Yeah, that's not a bad comparison. And Ryan, you were saying you live next to a liquor store. And I think that's really drizzly, his opportunity is not necessarily to replace the liquor store, but to provide an experience you couldn't get by going to any one liquor store. And that goes again, back to selection, to transparency of pricing to the surface and multiple stores being able to get to you when and where you want it.

13:40 And so I kind of want to roll back the hands of time here and kind of learn more about you so kind of talk us through, you know, where did Where did spirits become or is this just like an idea you had and you said, like, Hey, this is fun. Like, this is a this is an opportunity that's, that's basically ripe for disruption. Like, what What got to the point of like you getting here and saying like, okay, cool, like this is gonna be a good venture to kind of go through.

14:07 Yeah, it's a it's a less sexy story than you might imagine. And it started with regulation. So going all the way back to my cousin Nick, Nick rellis, and then co founder, Justin Robinson. And it was born out of trying to figure out why alcohol was only 2% online, or even one and a half percent online. When you saw grocery, when you saw a restaurant, we saw electronics and clothing, all these other verticals are coming online at a rapid rate. And we started to think about why that is with alcohol. And regulation became the clear component of this whole piece. And so we started digging into the legal code. I mean, truthfully, looking not only at the repeal and the prohibition, but also state by state liquor codes and trying to understand how does this model need to work for alcohol? How can a tech platform both empower the industry but not be a part of the industry and still be an unlicensed entity within it? And then the third piece is, how do you carve your moat? How do you be more than deliberate because you know, when we start projecting the 10 years down the road, that's a commodity at the end of the day and so we need to be better than going to the liquor store and elevate the status or I'm sorry, elevate the physical liquor stores to do something that couldn't do in the physical world.

15:11 Alright, so I don't know if he really answered my question there because I really want to figure out more about you right like Matt

15:17 Boyd. All of those Kenny.

15:19 Bad we want to get to know a little about you, right? I mean, like, like, we're like so where'd you go to school? Like Where'd it Where'd this really kind of like, really spawn from?

15:27 sure my road was a little bit sideways. I grew up in Texas. And I would say that I'm a big bourbon fan for that reason grew up loving bourbon actually, but was a soccer player at Notre Dame spent five years there had a fifth year for soccer and wanted to play professionally after school. But a couple ACLs later, had to give up that dream and ultimately had done an internship after my first injury, kind of preparing just in case it didn't work out in the long run, and took a job out here in Boston at Bain Capital. They're credited affiliates, sanctity advisors. And that's when I started to get to know businesses a little bit better. I started to get to know regulated industries incredibly well, I was dealing with coal and steel and some pretty, pretty old industries at the end of the day. And then the three of us that I was mentioning, started just kicking around ideas. And so this was a big jump for me, I was in, you know, kind of the standard finance track at that point, thinking about what the next couple of years looked like, whether it be business school, or continuing doing what I was doing. And it felt like the right time to jump it felt like the right collection of folks to try something new with and a little bit of naivete got us to the final to the finish line and push us over the edge

16:40 to like your own little incubator, if you will.

16:43 We had a bunch of ideas. They were all terrible. So

16:47 we struck out on a few. This one became, I mean, really, the passion of the other two guys is what got me to believe and then the more we dug in, the more we really peel back the onion, the more we knew something was here, not just as a small thing. company but something that could really turn into something as a larger platform.

17:03 Give us a timeline behind this what was you know, when when did the light bulb light bulb go off?

17:10 Yeah, so 2012 the light bulb was starting to go off with the text of why can't you get alcohol delivered? And the response was you can you idiot. And so that started down the rabbit hole of when you get called out to some extent, what do you have to do? You have to take the next step and figure it out. And so that's when we started researching the liquor code. And it's funny how things work in Boston being a good microcosm of this project. One question you get and put in touch with the next guy who you can then ask the next question to and it starts to unfold unto itself. And it's not necessarily we saw some grand vision of what alcohol e commerce would look like and what drizzly has now become, but the next step was always apparent if you're willing to take the time. So 2012 was the idea. 2013 was the very first iteration and we've evolved since then. But bringing one liquor store online. Learning about consumers and what they're looking for what e commerce was. And then in the last three years, our models really accelerated.

18:07 So walk us through like the state of the industry, then when you guys are getting like what it were liquor stores doing as far as inventory or trying to do online sales, what was kind of the State of the Union when you guys got it started?

18:19 I wouldn't say it's too different now. We're moving it forward, but begrudgingly, I'd say for some of them. So what was fascinating about the current landscape delivery did happen, but it didn't happen in the paradigm in which we have now moved it towards which you could call liquor store. You didn't necessarily know it was on their shelves, but you could say, you know, I'm having 10 people over for a party, I'd like to place a $500 order split between a couple things, can you make some recommendations, so there wasn't transparency into what you could buy nor the price behind it. And you had to have big orders at the store is going to take the time, but delivery did happen to some extent. On the other side. Ecommerce within this space was just like not even on the radar for regulators or legislators. So you're talking about prohibition being repealed, that is still a lot of the framework and the intent behind the laws that are written. And so there was nothing to comment on e commerce at that point. And one of the first things we did I mean, this is the time of Uber, right? The cars are moving around you at the touch of a button, the world's changing because you have a phone in your pocket. And we're sitting here thinking, Okay, well, how does it need to look for alcohol? And unlike Uber, we couldn't just get into a city try to stoke up consumer demand, and then ask the regulations to be changed. That's just not the way this industry works. We had to go the other way. And so one of the first things we did was go to New York State, the Liquor Authority, they're the SLS. And we asked for a declaratory ruling relative to our model to basically say, not only we elite, not only are we legal, but we're three tier compliant, and we're doing things so aboveboard, that the SLA is willing to bless our model going forward and so that was actually the first moment where became not just a hobby, but very real and something that we thought we could then Take a run with.

20:01 So you you kind of said, All right, we need to sit down, look at the laws and figure out how we can sort of navigate these choppy waters. I would imagine when we've we've talked about all the time, anytime you try to put any kind of disruption into this marketplace that there is you're going to be hit hard with a lot of people that are lobbying against you. What were some of those like early conversations, you remember having people that are like this will never work like you're not going to get it to fly.

20:29 I have a hard time remembering ones that weren't like that, to be honest. So I can speak to the other side easier. Most of it was doubt that this is a very slow industry to change. And you have pretty significant entities that control pieces of the supply chain, and if they're not on board, you're not going to have success on a macro scale and other slices of it. That can work. You could do direct to consumer wine, you could do shipping, there's different pieces of it. But on a macro scale of trying to bring the physical footprint of alcohol online. We needed a few things to go right one was New York. And Funny enough, the the woman, Jackie flute, who blessed our model, as the general counsel for the New York State Liquor Authority is now on our team. And she was kind of the veteran in the space when she put her stamp of approval that meant a lot to the industry. The second one was the wholesalers, the wine and spirits, wholesalers of America and powerful group of people and in terms of their lobbying prowess in their space within the industry, and we got them on board as a three tier compliant model that can move forward the consumer experience in a way that they could get behind. So that was that was a big piece of it as well.

21:33 So you talked about being going above and beyond what the authorities there were, what were some of those things that kind of helps sell New Yorker where they were like gave you that that blessing?

21:44 Well, I think transparency is the first thing and not only transparency, communication, but transparency of the supply chain and what consumers purchasing what bottles from what retailer and if you can track all of that which obviously tech can do and can really enable that process. That is a leg up for many Anything that's happening in delivery today, connect. The second one was, we came with an offering for ID verification through delivery. That was again, not only transparent, but did it in such a way that they could have confidence that under age was not going to be a problem within this business model. And then I think the third part was just being very descriptive on how the flow of funds work. And then also what drizzly is and what just isn't, I think there's a line that needs to get drawn as to what is a retailer's job and competencies. And when you encroach on those too far, you start to erode the license that they have worked hard and in need to live up to, relative to what a software platform is doing on the other side. So it was more just a lot of learning and explaining who we are and how we do it.

22:45 So I know that the liquor laws are they're different everywhere. I mean, every state is different. You've got to navigate that everywhere you're trying to launch. And so when I think of New York, one of the things that I know of at least in New York, and who knows if at least There's plenty of stores that actually have websites in New York. And they can deliver within New York as well, like they can run through UPS, FedEx or whatever it is. So what was the idea of going through something like New York first, that might already have some sort of system set up like this versus something like Texas, right, which is a huge market, but has a lot more regulation versus something like DC, which is really like the Wild West?

23:26 Yeah, there's a few things to pick apart there. So we actually got off the ground in terms of our model in Boston. And then we went to New York to get the model blessed one because of their size and then to the regulatory credibility when they put their stamp on something. But what was unique about Massachusetts in one of those fortuitous things that happens. It is a an incredibly regulatory driven market for alcohol. So if you're compliant here, you've almost kind of fit the lowest common denominator for the rest of the states. And you can roll it out from there. So I think that was a big fortuitous bounce in our direction at the beginning. The second thing We learned from a consumer side of things, every state is so different, and how consumers buy alcohol. Because of the regulations in New York, as you're mentioning, you have a wine and spirits store and a beer store, you have a license cap so that you don't have chains. But you have a ton of independence, which is obviously very different than Texas or California, where you have a bevmo or some of these larger chains out there. So the consumer experience really needed to adapt on where you are, and who you're going to be working with on the retail side, the East Coast was set up pretty pretty darn effectively for us because we could work with independence, learn how to bring on a smaller shop make a real difference in their business. And then as we rolled out to larger cities and states, we were more ready. We were more ready to have conversations with some of the bigger retailers.

24:45 Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we should most most people that are in the retail market should really start looking at is how do you become a little bit more competitive in today's market and just being on the corner and relying on your neighbors to kind of keep you in business might not be able to thing that's gonna keep you floating for much longer. So when you go and you have these conversations, or at least in the very beginning, I'm sure you have a whole team that have these conversations now with liquor stores around the country, what's your what's your big selling point to them to say like, hey, like we can bring your inventory online? Do you integrate with like their existing POS? Or does it say like, Hey, you need to have a new POS system that that we we run and manage, like, how does all that work?

25:28 There's a lot to it. But you appeal to them first as a consumer, and you start to think about other industries and how they've come online. And where do you buy airline tickets? Where do you buy hotels? How do you buy or how do you shop? for clothes online aggregator model and starting to get them thinking about this is going to happen in the space. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and so you appeal to them on a consumer level to start. The next thing you're really dealing with is fear. You're dealing with fear of competition, you're dealing with fear of transparency of pricing, and that's how far back this industry goes. As you know, they still believe That people can't get their prices if they wanted to walk in, it gets a little irrational. But then you can speak to them around numbers now. And this is obviously changed over seven years. But you can talk to him about incremental consumers that they wouldn't have been able to serve otherwise. And we have data behind that. You can talk to him about how a marketplace actually elevates to the experience to the point where multiple stores are able to succeed at a level that if you were the only one doing delivery in this area, we wouldn't be able to get those consumers to not only come and check out the site, but also come back and shop from you in the future. And then the last thing is, is we need to be more than just the consumer marketplace. And so when you're talking about point of sale systems, we need to be to elevate and help them generate more profit from their in store business, that things there's things like the catalog and the accuracy of what's on their shelves and how they actually think about that there's data on consumer trends and what they want to put on their shelves at what price at what time. So there's a lot of things as a tech company that we have access to the can really elevate their entire business and it's a whole package that when you work with drizzly makes you a better retailer.

27:01 So you brought up up pricing. One thing that we've noticed a trend in liquor retailers is there's a lot of price gouging. Do you have any restrictions or anything like that with the retailers you work with that you set them within like a

27:18 close to the MSRP or anything like that?

27:21 And it's a good question. So in some states, the price in store is legally mandated to be the price online. And I could give it's a couple states, it's not the majority by any means. So that one takes care of itself. But our job is really to bring their in store experience online and the way they want to do it. Our approach to price gouging is not necessarily to give them mandates on what to price it or to keep it in certain things is to insert competition. It's to have a marketplace to keep them honest to the point where if you are going to try to price things 40 50% up because they're rare and Other people that have that same item, they're obviously not going to purchase yours. And so it really just gets back to an efficient marketplace idea and making sure that consumers are the arbiter of what's successful and not regulations or drizzly or someone else.

28:14 And so to kind of like tackle or shall I say, like, tack onto that one a little bit. When we think about pricing, we've actually had KL we've had a spirits on the show, because we kind of talked about like, what does it look like to be in an online first kind of market? Right? Like, like, that's gonna be the new consumer drive. That's the new demand. If If Amazon's next whatever's coming next, if it's drizzly next, whatever, it's going to be like that online marketplaces really where people are going to go for. And so the other thing about the pricing aspect is this is like when you put your prices online, you're creating this level transparency, because you know exactly like what somebody's charging for a 750 ml in early times versus what somebody else is charging. Does that ever like Upset any retailers? And they're like, Wait a second, like, how are they able to charge less than I can like, what's their? What's their distributor? charging them versus what they're charging me? Do you get caught any of those kind of situations?

29:12 There's definitely yes, I mean, transparency introduces more knowledge into the marketplace for sure. Are we introduced to that conversation? Not necessarily. But I'll tell you one of the biggest learnings from early days it drizzly from switching from a single store experience. I am shopping from the store across the street, who I've been brought online through drizzly to a marketplace where I'm shopping by brand first and then drizzle is telling you the best way to access that product, whether it be selection, you can only get it at one place, price delivery, all those different things. And so what's come out of that though, one store may price something as a margin builder. Another one actually may price price it as a loss leader, and the various strategies within those retailers really come to fruition when you break down those physical barriers and put all of those things on one page together, so it's not necessarily that, hey, I'm getting a worse deal from my distributor. But it starts to highlight what someone does in store online in a much, much more transparent way. And you compete a little differently online. And so it started to me an education of this is how I went in store helped me win online. And there's usually an avenue to do that. That's the bigger conversation more so than I'm getting gouged by my distributor.

30:24 Yeah, that was

30:25 actually going to be my question how, as a liquor store, do you compete online, it kind of reminds me of the car business, you know, like the car industry used to have to rely on a salesman and try to whittle them down and beat them down to get the you know, the most fair price but now everybody knows the price What can a store do to compete? You know, if if you guys are and what parameters are you kind of determining that makes a store better or worse for someone?

30:50 Sure. And it's one of those things when you when you come on a jersey you're going to see a bunch of information and that's really where where I think we can win in the long run. Is asymmetric access to information and that includes price. That includes delivery times, that includes your selection, whether it be longtail wines, or high end and rare Bourbons. And so highlighting that is a big piece of it. And then you start to think about other people that are starting to focus in this industry. I mean, grocery, for example, is starting to come online for alcohol in a bigger way, total wine is being very aggressive. They are feeling independence or feeling that distinctly in the cities that we're seeing that, but there are advantages to being an independent liquor store location, for example, you have access to consumers within 2030 or 40 minutes that a total one could never get to in that timeframe. Not necessarily selling private label. Private Label online is a little bit more difficult. And so what of your selection, do you want to highlight? What are your higher margin products? And how do we highlight those to the consumers you're willing to speak to, and then also providing them tools. Again, going back to this data conversation, there's not a whole lot informing what they put on their shelves except for that stuff. salesmen walking in drizzly can bring transparency to that as well. What are consumers in this area buying? What are the trends? How should you think about pricing it? And how do you build that into an overall larger strategy to have a successful business and in a rapidly changing environment, which we're seeing, depending on which city different rates, but it's happening.

32:17 So you brought up data, you bring in a datum, and we are in the age of big data where we are dominated by it. Tell talk, walk us through, like how you use that data? Do you sell it to the to the suppliers? Do you feed it into like a market research hub? How are you using the data you're acquiring at point of sale?

32:40 Almost all of the data we acquire, we are using to inform our own offering. And so it's simply commerce things like how do we construct a better flow to increase conversion your likelihood to hit checkout? How do we start moving shelves around in what is effectively a digital liquor store to be more personalized to you So that the next time you come back in, we're more apt to show you the right product at the right time at the right price. That's really what we use the data for. Going back to retailers and brands, we can aggregate it and anonymize it and give them larger trends that could be cut down by geography, but never anything that's highlighting a particular store or a particular consumer more. So just highlighting a different slice of the market. And one of the interesting things about the alcohol industry is you have your Nielsen's and your IR eyes and some of the bigger data providers who have a interesting offering within the alcohol space. But they're big gaps, the independent liquor store market where you don't have receipt data, or you don't have consistency of point of sale systems. Those are not places so New York has an entire market. Those are not places that people have great insight to and drizzly through its 350 retailers that we partner with in New York City can start to really build transparency into a market that is otherwise been only aggregated into depletion data. So Other things. So there's an aggregated view for the external partners. For us internally, it's how do we create a better ecommerce experience?

34:06 Because that thread can be

34:07 actually, you know, it's fascinating.

34:09 There's a lot to take in, right.

34:11 I used to cover retail, I used to be the tech writer for the National Retail Federation's magazine stores, and I felt myself going back to the old days. Listen to you talk there. And follow up on that data is that, you know, we don't really a lot of the a lot of the numbers that are that are out there that are public. They kind of like you're saying, like the Nielsen numbers. They're not really complete. So my question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public? Since you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there?

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35:42 My question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public and you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there.

35:53 You're hitting on a great thing. And we actually do believe in the democratization of our data just because we think it's going to make all of us Better, including the consumer experience. So we released something a long time ago called the data distillery. We are thinking about how to do this in a larger way, not only for trend data, but again, how do we create something that becomes a backbone for the industry so that we are sharing data? Not because I think some people think you by holding on to it, you're more valuable. Our view is by using it to make the industry more effective, the consumers will win, which is ultimately what we're all about. One, one quick anecdote. I mean, we see trends earlier, our average consumer is millennial, older millennial 30 to 34 years old, 5050, male, female, and these are folks who are trendsetters. These are social people. And so, Rosie a couple of years ago, I mean, seltzer took off about eight months online before it did on, you know, in the physical world. So it's just one of those things where we can really inform based on the trendsetters that purchase on our platform brands and how they should be thinking about the world and then a larger play as to what you're saying Fred around, using data to benefit the industry.

36:59 Fred, you Actually, you know, and you kind of cover my question, but I guess as a liquor store owner, do I have, you know, do I have the same access to that data? Is every single store within your system? Or is it store specific or regional specific? And like, from a CR is do you have a CRM base as well with drizzly for the retailer?

37:20 We do we do. So if you're a drizzly retailer, we have a tool that's actually just culturally retailer and that gives you access to all of your sales data, all of the customers that are purchasing from you. And then also an aggregated view on some of these consumer trends and thoughts around the inventory, you should be stocking. So that is absolutely part of being a partner with drizzly and a CRM side. We're obviously aggregating eyeballs on our site. We're aggregating consumers and want to speak to them in an intelligent way. A piece of what we're doing in 2020 is starting to take our technology and utilizing that to allow retailers to do this themselves. So you can imagine white labeled websites that Allow them to merchandise their own products more effectively and almost have control of their own website by utilizing drizzly assets. And you can start to see where that would go in terms of CRM capability, the ability to talk to their consumers in a more discreet way versus the aggregator marketplace that is drizzly. So there's a lot within that, but yes, I can see us more and more powering some of their ecommerce needs, not only to benefit us, but I think it's a necessity for the market to benefit consumers.

38:26 I also think it's a necessity to because of course it for me, it always comes back to tech. And, you know, you go and you look at some websites, and I mean, some of them are just they're just archaic, right? You know, a lot of liquor stores, these mom and pop shops that try to build a website, there's a flash banner on it, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, that's why, you know, at least not in this particular segment, but this is why a lot of people that are creating their own businesses, they look at things like Shopify because it makes their you know their system a lot easier. I mean, or is that like one of the big selling points that you have for just lead a lot of these retailers is like, let's Let's take you at least to the 2020. Now,

39:03 yeah, that's a great point. So it wasn't when we started, to be honest, we thought more about how to aggregate consumer demand in our marketplace. And so that's a little bit different. That's almost like the Amazon side of things of will collect the eyeballs, we'll build the technology. And we're going to utilize your physical shelf space. On the other side, the selling point there is just incremental consumers incremental profit, so that that works. On the other side, there's so much we can do to look like Shopify to be a platform, which is an entirely different business model, but one that we really think we can enable the hundred thousand independent retailers out there to serve customers, and I keep saying customers because despite everything else that goes on within our business, we talk a lot about internally, the reason for our existence, our purpose behind everything is to to be there for the moments that matter and the people who create them and yes, we sell alcohol and help people transact online. But we're there to actually provide a better consumer experience and allow them the time and the freedom and To find that right bottle at the right price, I mean, we all know how cool that can be. So, it all comes back to democratizing what we do to the benefit of the end consumer.

40:10 Well, first off, hats off for trying to make change, positive change in this world. That's always outdated. That's we know, it's we know, it's insanely difficult to actually do. But I think there's one aspect that you know, we kind of want to touch on as well because it is a it is a part of the drizzly system and no, it's not just you know, basically creating the catalog for for what the consumer sees, but there there is a component of actually how it is delivered to the end consumer. So kind of touched on a little bit about you know, you said the post mates the, that sort of model of like, how does it once once a transaction happens online, at what point is drizzly done with it, and it's either on the retailer, it's on whomever, to get that into the hands of the consumer.

40:57 So when someone hits check out What we have done is send that order through a gateway to the merchant of record, which is the retailer itself. So just one data point there. If you're shopping from ABC liquors, that is the merchant of record on your credit card drizzly is not within that flow of funds at any point. What we do do on the other side is build the technology so that if the retailer wants to do the delivery, they have the ability to do that it almost is like the Uber driver app to some extent for this space. And that's about 92% of our orders. So most of this is retailer delivery using our technology, and we are providing the customer support throughout the entire experience until the bottle has received at its location. The third parties are interesting just because delivery is such a inexpensive piece of this whole thing and they've added scale and efficiency in a way that you almost need multiple categories, multiple verticals to do and you can imagine a mom and pop getting frustrated on a seven 7pm Friday. Too many orders coming from drizzly too many people internally It would be nice to be able to have a courier of some sort. So that's what we built in. They're all tech based, we have full visibility into when it reaches the consumers hands inclusive of ID verification. So we're always a part of it. And at the same time, we're not the ones physically handing the bottle off.

42:16 So you're like a almost like a marketplace, right? As for getting those together? I mean, is I mean, is it really like you're popping out? And it's like saying, like, okay, like Uber Eats, post mates doordash, like, whoever is going to answer this, like, come and pick this thing up.

42:29 We don't put it out to bid per se but we do work with most of the partners you just said. But that was also an idea to be honest. And there's people who have created that, we found that having one option per store is a little bit better just because you get used to who they are and do things in a in a bit simpler way.

42:44 And so I guess a another question that I kind of want to actually go ahead and because it's I'm sure it's a the business side of this. So go ahead and answer it is

42:51 actually a business side. So you talked about how you kind of laid the framework for this whole really, for what is an is an new category that's kind of changing the space and now you got competition. You got all kinds of people coming on board, minibar and a few others. So how do you? How do you how do you deal with that? How do you, you you have to compete with him at individual retailers? Do you guys share retailers? How does that work with your competition?

43:21 Well, Fred, I mean, going back to 2013 when we Magneto got back in the stone age's. Exactly. I felt like I got some grit. Now, that was pretty good. In 2013, when we kind of announced the model, there were about 50 meters out there, minibar absolutely being one of them and have a lot of respect for what they've done. That phase isn't necessarily over at any time, but the big boys are now here. And so we're actually thinking about competition, not necessarily for just alcohol specific, but the logistics firms. I mean, Uber Eats has tried to do alcohol delivery. 10 different times instacart has prioritized alcohol and e commerce. Why Walmart and grocers are starting to think about how to do this in a bigger way, total wine. So you can imagine that there's, we almost need to find a way to succeed. And this is what we talked about a lot internally. In 567 years, every bottle on every shelf could be transacted online and sent to a consumer, whether it be delivery pickup or shipping. And in that world, how does your business model succeed? And that's really where it just has been built for. Not necessarily the me twos today that are, you know, predominantly just about delivery and convenience, within that

44:32 value proposition. At what point do you stop, you know, you're talking about some pretty big names and they're trying to get in the space? what point do you stop competing and just start? You can't beat them join them in that regard, is that the end goal? Seems like with most tech companies, they want to get absorbed or bought out, you know, at some point have an exit strategy.

44:51 Yeah, I mean, there's always there's always thoughts on the next strategy, but to be honest, we're being built for the long haul and alcohol is a bit a bit you I mean, there is a moat, from regulation that comes from embracing them, rather than trying to knock down these laws. Now, if tomorrow, the Three cheers went away, and it looked a lot more like selling electronics online, I might have a different tune as to about where we fit in the long run. But I do think we can stick out a place here for the long term. And a lot of that comes back to kind of this underpinning of how do you take regulation and code that into your technology? And then also, how do you take a mom and pop an entirely fragmented retail base, and then aggregate that in such a way using your catalog, your tech that we know where every bottle is in the country, its price and how to get it to a consumer, what you build on top of that within your product experience? Just kind of opens up the world to you and I just think that's something entirely differentiated and difficult to replicate. All that being said, not looking to sell by any means today, but it's obviously something you sit up a little straighter when Amazon gets into your space.

45:58 Yeah, I would imagine so. Yeah, I mean, I think I think Amazon might have been one of the big names that, you know, people are gonna recognize and you know, they're they're definitely trying to get into the space as well. And so, you know, another question that that kind of follows along with that is the when we start looking at, you know, Amazon, you start looking at instacart, and all these different kinds of companies that are trying to get into it. And if you kind of said something like, if the three tier system is goes down tomorrow, like what what would that really mean for you all? And if basically, this gets democratized to the point that it is just like, buying and you know, buying an electronic off Amazon like, What? What is that? Is that truly like gaming or a game over? I mean, are you really reliant on the three tier system to to make this happen?

46:47 At this point? No, but I think two things become obvious. Right now brands are about as far away that you can be from a consumer when you're a big CPG right. So they are unbelievable storytellers and brand builders from The awareness message side of things. But it's not like Procter and Gamble and Walmart, where you have co located offices and you're trying to figure out where to put things on shelves and incentive basis. And you know, you're buying shelf space and tap space and the rest. That doesn't happen well, at least not legally, at least today. And if that goes away, then the way brands work with retailers changes overnight. And drizzly has a value proposition there, but it does need to shift pretty significantly. The other side of the coin though, is we almost need to plan for the three tiers to go away because drizzly successful, when the product experience, the consumer experience is so good that they no longer need to go to the store. And that goes back to not just the selection and the availability and the transparency of price, but then packaging it in such a way that again, almost guided shopping or personalization to where you almost feel like you're missing out if you're not going to Jersey because you've learned so much about your product. There's a crazy stat we just learned that you know 40 45% of our consumers Unless you're using Drupal as a discovery tool, and not necessarily transacting on the platform, I think that's fascinating. I think that's something that we can really lean into to drive value for the consumers at the end of the day. And again, I think that's one of those unique things that regulation be damned, we can do better than anyone else.

48:16 And how does your game change if shipping laws are broken down? Now, let's say the three tier system still there, and it's great. However, now that you know, New York and shipped to California, Wisconsin, you can go to Florida, and liquor stores can now compete, you know, across state lines, like what is that? What does that do for your business?

48:37 I think it'd be a little bit of the Wild West to start, I think you're going to start to see the macro or the larger chains, assert price dominance because they can then start to think of their business on a national scale versus distributor, distributor and state by state. I think we could really take advantage of that world to be honest again, I keep beating on the same point but if we know what's in 40,000 stores We should be able to surface all of the items at the best price possible for you almost kind of this notion of tell us what you want, we'll figure out the best way for you to get it. And I think that's one in which we would really succeed. Shipping is not a huge piece of our business today. But that speaks to the use case, we're going after more so than the consumer demand inherent within shipping. So I think we could really take advantage of it. It would, it would require a little bit of adaptation and how we do things.

49:24 All right, I want to jump back into some data stuff. This is I think this is some fun. This will be fun for you. What is your best selling bourbon based on your data?

49:36 It's a little different than you might think. It's a brand that we've done a lot of work with, to try to figure out how it resonates with the millennial consumer but bullet bourbon was our largest brand in 2019.

49:48 Bigger than it's a

49:49 popular brand,

49:50 but it's you know, it's not it's not necessarily makers, or Jim are some of these other ones. So yeah,

49:55 still a top 10 bourbon from a sales perspective. Now what are The top five selling spirits so like from a categorical perspective

50:06 category spirits are the spirit themselves.

50:09 The so the know the category spirits so like tequila ROM bourbon like what what's your top five there?

50:16 I might get this wrong but we'll see here I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selections been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head.

50:37 You said it wrong. It's goes bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon,

50:41 right. brown brown, brown brown.

50:44 At least that's what we want to hear.

50:45 Well, I didn't I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't

50:53 bleep me out but it's funny I've I've sworn on this and I didn't hear any negative reaction. Now I say anything other than bourbon. And there we go.

51:00 Yeah you get around Fred that's that's the type of banter you're gonna get out of it and so you know as we kind of want to like ask a question because we really didn't ask it in the very top of this because you said you were a bourbon fan like what's what's what's kind of like your go to you got some favorites cuz I see behind you you got a Coors Light came behind there I figured figured we could I mean you're in the you're in the spirits business like let's let's get some bourbon on those shelves back there.

51:25 Oh don't worry we do have that this is just one of the rooms

51:29 well so I like to play nice because we work with a bunch of different brands in their businesses. I'm a big Booker's fan I love 100 proof Booker's over a glass device when I go home. I'd say that's more of a Friday night drink than anything else. But that's probably my go to if I'm if I'm opening something on the regular.

51:47 What do you mean by by working with brands? Like what is what does that mean to you? Well,

51:52 I think there's two things. The first would be on the data side. So these are folks who are looking to learn about consumer trends, figure out how their business brands are resonating with consumers. And it's less even about the online spend. It's taking those learnings and apply it to the offline. And again, massive media budgets and trying to make them even 1% more efficient by learning about the online consumer in depth. That's a big piece of it. The second piece is, shirtsleeves, the fastest growing company in the fastest growing channel for alcohol. So to that extent, they are trying to figure out how they're going to win online. Knowing that in five years 10 12% of all alcohol is going to be sold online. So drizzly can be almost a test and learn area for them. You can speak to consumers in a personalized way. You could sell advertising, we haven't done much of that to date. But all of these things are basically a lab for them to figure out how their brands can come online, and either keep or grow their market share versus the physical world.

52:49 So what was that you say? 10 to 12% is what it's going to be in the future.

52:53 Yeah, if you look at some of the larger data providers, they're projecting 13 $14 billion in 2023. Slightly less ambitious than that. But you're seeing this industry come online at 40 50% year over year, which is significant, we do think it's gonna be the fastest growing CPG over the next three to five years.

53:11 So what what do you all need to do to try to position yourselves to say like, we can grow this beyond 10 to 12%? Like how, how do we change the minds of the consumer to say, like, Oh, we can we can get this to 20 to 25%? Like, what do you think has to change in the culture to try and get people to start buying more online?

53:32 I think you're actually hitting at it pretty good there, which is awareness. Not many people know that you're allowed to buy alcohol online. And even if you do, there hasn't been a way to do so that should take away from going to the local liquor store. I mean, that's, that's a behavior that's worked for decades and decades. And so to break that behavior, you need to build something that is not one or two times more effective than going to the store but 10 X and really, that's where the product offering needs. to elevate the purchasing to where I don't need to leave my home, or if I did, I need to at least see what's online to really inform my experience in a way that I could never get on store. So it's a combination of awareness, and then a product offering that is just so superior going to the store, that they're going to order it online. Again, utilizing that store, though,

54:18 for sure. And I don't know, I mean, I guess there is there is also something about, you know, being a consumer going to the store, looking at it holding in your hand. And maybe, maybe that'll just become a thing of the past. Like, what do you what do you try to do to try to like counteract, like, some arguments like that? I mean, but then again, there's also like, Alright, well, you know, people used to love to have the feel of holding a newspaper in their hand, but nobody really does that a lot anymore, either. Can I still read the newspaper? I gotta be honest, physical core. You're killing me, man. Like you're young. You're young and hip, man. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper.

54:54 no and no one I know we call me hip, but that's all right. I wrote for newspapers for a long time. DDS. to bash on them, I mean, for God's sake,

55:03 there isn't. There's a key word in there that was it was wrong.

55:08 Yeah, but to your to your larger point, I don't want to necessarily be in a world where you can't feel a physical bottle where you can't go look at it, I want to lean into that. And so while the physical store might need to change, I hope it still exists. And I do think it should exist, but in a little bit different format. Instead of trying to have 5000 or 10,000 items on your shelves, and trying to have that inventory in that working capital and play that game. I'd love to see a world where you can almost have a retailer that has an e commerce DNA from day one. And then they have the experiential side of going in being able to taste products being an elevated experience knowing that on the back end, you can get any of those products delivered to you shipped to you or walk away with them from a warehouse around the corner. So they almost become showrooms informed by the DNA of e commerce versus having to compete in the current way of doing things today.

56:00 So So drizzly has been very active on the, you know, on the on the trade front. Where what do you do from a legislative perspective? Dr. You do you guys have a lobby firm that you're spending time in DC Do you do lobby in every state that you're in? Talk us through that particular process from the government perspective.

56:23 It's a core competency of ours. It's really what we were built on. So we have an internal team composed of General Counsel who has industry affairs experience, and then also the woman I mentioned Jackie fluke, who was on the New York State Liquor Authority, and they're really quarterbacking state by state, both almost legal protection side of things, and then an advocacy side for what we believe to be the best way to bring this industry online. We have lobbyists in every state that there is legislation moving we're in those rooms and our real thesis here is the engagement is important because I mean, we spend all day thinking about content tumors and the intersection of their needs and desires with a controlled and regulated substance. We want to be a part of that. And we think we can actually help doing so. So that actually speaks to something else we're doing, which is taking our platform into the cannabis world in the near future as well.

57:16 Oh, that's I think you hit on a pretty good topic there because we've we've actually covered on the podcast before what's the effect of cannabis and the, the, you know, this the distilled spirits market? What do you kind of see is the cannabis market kind of being an opportunity?

57:30 Well, I think it's a massive opportunity. And we started, you know, talking about market size. Alcohol is 130 billion dollars sold off premise each year 2% online. So you can do that math. We think cannabis is going to be a 30, maybe $35 billion legal market within five to seven years. But you're talking 40%, maybe even 50% online. It's a different consumer behavior, and there's no ingrained I know how to go to a store and there's no kind of behavior you need to break off, there's actually a stigma from going to a store. So all of that coming together, we think is a great opportunity. We do think it needs to be informed by alcohol legislation and the know how behind bringing alcohol online, it's just it needs to be treated with respect as a category. And that's one of the things we think we can really bring to that conversation.

58:22 Okay, so I have a request for your cannabis stuff, your delivery, you need to have guys on with backpacks on bicycles. Doing the deliveries through through town.

58:35 You mean like the movie half

58:36 but yeah, exactly.

58:40 Yeah, that's not gonna.

58:43 That wouldn't make it right. A legal team.

58:45 Yeah, no, you definitely wouldn't. But you could absolutely work beside me because I come up with these ideas all day long and get shot down. So it's good. I mean, it

58:54 is another thing that you know, even with the cannabis market, I mean, if you're, if you're always engrained in these legal discussions. Do you find it like fascinating that the legalization of cannabis and the laws change like that? I mean, it is happening fast, way faster than any kind of deregulation of any alcohol allows any alcohol laws that have been there. Do

59:16 you find that kind of fascinating. I mean, there's states that don't allow alcohol to be sold online that are going to legalize Canada. I mean, Cannabis, e commerce before alcohol. I mean, it's so backwards. It's unbelievable. And yet they factor into the same conversation, if not the same agencies or legislators thinking about it. That is usually tied at the hip. And so I do think they will push each other along. But I don't ever want to live in a world where they're not thought of separately than other commodity goods that are not controlled and we get to see it, right. I mean, we do occupy an important position, but under age usage, and just the various respects that come with being in a controlled industry, they do need to be treated with respect.

59:56 Well, awesome. And I think that will I gotta leave One last question for you since you are ingrained in all this so let's put a let's put a blank canvas on here if you were to picture like the perfect commerce market of like what alcohol delivery looks like, like what is it in your head?

1:00:16 No other constrictions the perfect alcohol market.

1:00:18 Yeah, like it could be getting rid of three tier system, it's opening up shipping like what what is your, what is your, your, your kind of dream here of how this would all work and create a better experience for everybody else out there.

1:00:32 I would love to shop at a place that had access to any bottle across the entire country, any bottle whatsoever, the rarest of the rare all the way down to the bud lights of the world. And know the best way to receive that product. And that could be different from me to you. It could be price it could be I want to receive it in the mail versus go pick it up and enjoy it with someone else. But that's really what I get excited about is if I knew where everything was every single bottle and consumer got to this Not a distributor, not regulations, not anything else, but a consumer got got to decide what they want when they want it. That's the world I could get pretty excited about online.

1:01:08 Fantastic, Cory, thank you again for coming on the show today. It was great to kind of hear your story, the story of drizzly and really what you all are doing to advance this marketplace a lot further too.

1:01:19 So I did have one last question. And you you, you mentioned that this you had these great trend spotters. What's the trend right now that you're seeing that in eight months, you know, we can cash in on

1:01:34 this may not sound that unusual to you. I mean, just you can you can read about in the newspaper now, but low ABV, low caloric intake, things that are part of the health movement are absolutely taking on. It speaks to a larger agenda, which I believe is people are drinking, sometimes more quality or a little bit more specific on more frequent occasions. So that's drinking less but drinking a little bit better. I think that's Something we're seeing is a larger challenge low ABV and low calorie being a piece of that. Okay.

1:02:04 I must be swimming upstream because for me, it's like give me the highest proof bourbon. And I love I love my stouts that are like 13 14% ABV?

1:02:13 Well, but I think I think you always have to put us bourbon people in a different box because we're just flat out weird. That's true. Don't follow the trends.

1:02:22 That is true. So Cory, thank you again for coming on the show today. It was really was a pleasure to have you. And again, knowing more about you and the company. If people want to know more about drizzly how they can order online, everything like that. Give them an idea of what our listeners can go do.

1:02:37 Yeah, drizzly calm is our website can walk you through what's available in your area, and if not what could be available for shipping, and also have an app on both iOS and Android and that brings the world of online alcohol to your doorstep.

1:02:50 There you go. If you're a small online retailer, you now have an opportunity to start capturing the next wave in the market. So I appreciate it. Make sure you go and check out drizzly.com You can also check out all their social media handles. I'm sure they're everywhere as well. Make sure you follow bourbon pursuit on us. Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and if you like what you hear, make sure you support us patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Alright, that's it for this week. Cheers y'all, and we'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whiskey Quickie: Hillrock Estate Exceptional Cask #1

Tue, 07 Apr 2020 10:30:12 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Hillrock Estate Exceptional Cask #1. This non-age stated bourbon is 116.8 proof and $120 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

247 - Castles, Concerts, and Whiskey with Alex Conyngham of Slane Irish Whiskey

Thu, 02 Apr 2020 10:30:02 GMT

We started off the year talking about Scotch… and now…we’re talking Irish Whiskey? It’s not another April Fool’s joke. We had the opportunity to sit down and capture one of the most interesting stories in Irish Whiskey with Alex Conyngham, co-founder of Slane Irish Whiskey. We talk castles and rock concerts because that’s one big aspect of his history. Then we get into the dynamics of Irish whiskey and if there are commonalities between bourbon like sourcing, regulation, and financing a distillery. Then we discuss the role Brown-Forman plays and how they are trying to appeal to both bourbon and Irish Whiskey consumers.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

DISCUS hand sanitizer portal: https://www.distilledspirits.org/distillers-responding-to-covid-19/distilleries-producing-hand-sanitizer/
Less than 100 bottles left from 3 different barrels of Pursuit Series left on Seelbachs: https://seelbachs.com/search?q=pursuit
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking bourbon during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Where did you grow up and how did you get into whiskey?
Tell us about your rock concerts.
How did you decide to do the concerts?
What is a good Irish cocktail?
Where is Slane?
What makes Irish whiskey unique?
Do people source Irish whiskey?
What is the process?
How did you decide to start the distillery?
Did you use a consultant to get started?
What's glamping?
Tell us about your dad.
How did you finance the distillery?
What was it like to work with Brown-Forman?
How big is the distillery?
What age can you sell Irish whiskey?
Tell us about the whiskey?
Do you have your own yeast?
What's the typical Irish whiskey proof?
How long are you aging?
Tell us about your packaging.
Would bourbon drinkers like Slane Irish whiskey?
Tell us about the ultra premium Irish whiskey category.
What is the price point?

0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered, how is this made? Sure, there's the grains and the barrels and all that science that goes into it. But what about the package design, class manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things that you need to know. But with the University of Louisville online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away from learning from industry experts from renowned spirits businesses like brown Forman, jack daniels, and more. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit.

0:37 Well, listen, I always love drinking Irish whiskey in the heart of bourbon country.

0:53 Hale you cool cats and kittens out there. It's Episode 247 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny.

1:00 I hope you're hanging in there because I'm trying to hang in there. We're all watching Tiger came together to try to get through this. But in the midst of all what's going on, not much has been happening with actual bourbon. And the industry has kind of been shifting focus to figure out how it can help the situation. So we've got some more updates there for you on that. And as you know by now with our reports last week that many facilities have turned overproduction to begin making hand sanitizer. Last week reported that discuss or better known as the distilled spirits Council of the United States was working with the federal government on including distilleries into the Cova 19 relief plan, and they were successful. As a part of the economic relief package. Congress has eased tax regulations so that distillers producing desperately needed hand sanitizer to address the nationwide shortfall would not have to pay a federal excise tax on the alcohol use. This package also includes measures to help small business loans and small business operating costs, that many smaller distilleries around the nation are going to need

2:00 While their doors are closed for visitors, and if you're in the medical field and you're looking for sanitization supplies, or need some for your local community, discus has created a portal that lists every distillery in the US making hand sanitizer. The portal also lists distillers who need supplies, and those who need help distributing, you can get this with the link in our show notes. We've also been seeing more control states getting tighter, Alabama has closed down several locations, but Pennsylvania still remains the only state that has all 600 of its brick and mortar stores currently closed. This has led to other opportunities for distilleries in Pennsylvania to begin shipping directly to Pennsylvania residents as well as doing curbside pickup. While discus has also been urging the government officials to reopen their doors immediately. Some Pennsylvania residents are even going to extreme measures of driving to places like Delaware, New Jersey and New York to stock up and the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board is now discussing

3:00 The possibility of reopening online ordering during this time. And two weeks ago, we reported on Kentucky House Bill 415. And what that could mean for interstate commerce. A version of the bill has passed that allows distilleries to ship bourbon and other spirits directly to consumers. Now, here's what it means for shipments coming into the state of Kentucky. So out of state distilleries and retailers can purchase a shipping permit for shipping distilled spirits, wine and malt beverages into the state of Kentucky. shipment details need to be submitted to the Department of Revenue every month or a 15% tax on the grocery receipt must be paid. Now here's what it means for shipments going out of state. In state holders of these permits that allow the sale of alcohol by the package will be able to ship to consumers outside of reciprocal states but also following state and local laws of that particular consumer. Now it's important to note that this bill would only affect shipping

4:00 In other spirits from the top of Kentucky's three tier system, that means it's the producer, leaving out the distributors and the retailers now giving consumers the option to purchase direct from the distillery. This is only available so far in Kentucky but serves as a benchmark and a template that other states could soon follow. So it's a huge win for consumers out there. House Bill 415 will head to the full Kentucky house for a vote relatively soon. As this pandemic continues, we've seen an explosion in e commerce. Many platforms like drizzly and thirsty are going to beat their annual projections by five or six x. It's finally a revolution into the digital age for spirits because it's an industry that's been lacking for far too long. And next week's podcast is featuring Corey rellis, the CEO of drizzly, so make sure you tune in and don't miss that. And as a small plug, we've got less than 100 bottles left from three different barrels of pursuit series.

5:00 left on seal box comm we know it sucks being stuck at home. But hopefully you can do it just a little bit more with some hand selected barrels from the bourbon pursuit team. Are you really bored at home? Like so bored that you would even have a conversation with Alexa? Well, the team over at go bourbon calm decided to put it to the test. And they asked Alexa, what's your favorite bourbon? And she replied, definitely bullet. They even quizzed Alexa on bourbon by asking, what's the difference between bourbon and scotch? So if you're looking to sit there and put Alexa to the test, go on, give it a try. See what you come up with. We started off the year in 2020, talking about scotch and now we're talking about Irish whiskey, who would have thought, but we had the opportunity to sit down and capture one of the most interesting stories in Irish whiskey. Alex Cunningham is one of the founders of slain Irish whiskey. We talked about way more than just whiskey though. First, we talk about castles and rock concerts, because that's

6:00 One big aspect of his history. Then we get into the dynamics of Irish whiskey. And if there's some commonalities between it and bourbon, such as sourcing regulation, and how do you go about financing a distillery in say, Ireland, then we discuss the role of brown Forman and what they are doing and trying to make bourbon and Irish Whiskey consumers happy at the end of the day. If you're a part of the bourbon pursuit Patreon community, make sure you're joining john and the other folks over the discord server where there's a virtual happy hour happening almost every single day and zoom. I think by now many of us are becoming experts in zoom. So come in and join in the fun. All right, let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char

6:46 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrel craft spirits, we're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm.

6:56 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char as well.

7:00 All isolated and supposed to stay six feet away from one another one very odd and very good consequences came up from this for me personally, and that is my TV bourbon is going dry. If you've listened to this podcast before, you would have heard me complain at one point or another about my TV bourbon and how that's the one vise that I have when it comes to sipping a little too much. That's right my TV bourbon as I'm watching the Vikings are justified or Better Call Saul or reruns of Breaking Bad or the wire. I find myself having one bourbon two Bourbons. Whoa, boy, let me have a third and hey, after that, let's go ahead and have a nightcap of a fourth. It's happened met sometimes twice in a week and you know what? That whiskey goes straight to my hips and my belly and I tell you what, it's the one thing that I cannot shake when I'm in the gym but

8:00 For whatever reason, I just don't want to sit on the couch and watch TV as we're isolated. You know what I'm doing. I'm cleaning stuff, organizing things. I'm doing all the things that I was supposed to do you know, when I first got married, and I just kept putting them off and putting them off and putting them off. This past week, I taught my son how to use a drill and we fix the fence and fix the door and I cleaned the garage and I'm like, holy cow, Who's this guy? Where's he been the last 15 years. This isolation business has made me productive, more clean. And I'm actually on a really good schedule with my tastings. The one thing that I have given up, it seems, is my TV bourbon. I learned long ago to look on the bright side. So I hope you're able to find some comfort and find some things right now that helps you get through this time of isolation. And hey, maybe it's a bourbon. Maybe it's two, but I do recommend not doing it while you're watching TV because

9:00 that could lead to four or five. And that's this week's above the char Hey, you heard me mentioned all this stuff that I'm doing with my tastings. I'm doing nightly live tastings every day at nine o'clock on my YouTube. I'm doing a face off of something in my office. Never know what that's going to be. So make sure you go to my YouTube and click that subscribe button and notifications. So you can check it out. Until next week. Cheers.

9:30 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. But you know, we might be branching out every once in a while and trying new things. And in today's episode, we are again branching out from bourbon trying something different. Because you know, we get we get kind of stuck in our hole in Kentucky and we think that you know, bourbon is the all be all and there's this whole other world of whiskey out there. You know, you've got sir Yeah, exactly.

9:58 I mean, we forget that

10:00 bourbon is just such a small segment of the whiskey category in itself, you know, you've got scotch and today we're gonna be looking at Irish whiskey. You know, we've I've been to Ireland, I've been to Dublin I've, I've, I've had a few of them over there. And I've, I've enjoyed them. I really know the powers of the world and stuff like that. And I'm excited about our guests being able to to try something that's new. That's, you know, that they're building and everything out of there, too. Yeah, and I'm ready to start this Irish Whiskey pursuit podcast. You know, what we should we should licenses what we need to do now. With everything proceed.

10:35 Now I know we talked about scotch and rums and Irish Whiskey is one of the few things I have had and like, kinda really enjoyed because it kind of reminds me a lot of similarities of bourbon not so much but it's just, it's more approachable I guess from a bourbon standpoint to make the transition to it. So, but the thing is, I know nothing about it as usual other than Ireland. It comes from Ireland.

11:00 It's Irish. And yeah, so I'm excited to meet our guests. And this is a beautiful looking product and excited to hear what is Irish whiskey and about this product and let's taste it. Yeah, absolutely. So today on the show, we have Alex Cunningham. Alex is the co founder of slean Irish whiskey. So Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Now, we had talked about this before because I thought I was gonna butcher your name. incredibly bad because it is spelled This is Cunningham, by the way, and you know where we come from around here. It's like see you and and I am his his CEO in y in gh am so I thought it was gonna be something that can be like, how can I say this? He's like, he's like cutting him. And I was like, that's awesome. We just like to confuse people. Yeah. But you'd mentioned that really hadn't been somebody eons ago. They just changed it. Yeah, we put the wire in there and actually the wire ties in with our with our family Christ, I guess. So. That goes all the way back to the 1100s and it's in it's on the bottle of slains that was

12:00 Before the See you in and I am so I think that's probably where the posers I think that's probably when everybody came over and they had to change their names that probably had something to do with that. Yeah, my family history had that same exact thing happened to them as well. So, but anyway, I kind of want to talk and let's start a little bit from the beginning about you, you know talk about where you kind of grew up assuming it's Ireland because you you know, you're definitely not from like, East Texas is what it sounds like, you know, kind of talked about where you grew up and kind of how you got into whiskey. Sure. slain is the place that's where I call home and we named the whiskey after that. It's a stunning little village about 45 minutes north of Dublin, in an area called the Boyne Valley. And believe it or not Irish Whiskey was bigger than scotch back in the 1800s. And there were a lot of distilleries in the boiling Valley because we are on limestone bedrock there. So we've got great water. Same is here. Yeah, exactly. There's a reason though. scotch and Irish like

13:00 Kentucky because they were off to that water for making whiskey.

13:04 Earlier today, yeah, good horses, Motherland, but it's hotter and hill here. Exactly. He's patenaude. He goes a little bit. It's okay. So yeah, the water quality's really important. That's why a lot of the distilleries were there. And also we got some of the best farmland in the country. And so I farm as well. My family's been farming and slain for generations, and we grow barley. And we weren't growing that historically to give it to capital for feed. But we love our Irish whiskey. So we said Why the hell are we giving it to the cattle wouldn't be a lot more fun to turn it into whiskey. So they set out to do your crop rotate. Yes, are really Yeah, really important. It didn't actually used to happen too much, but monoculture and continuous is not a continuous crop cultivation ain't good for the ground. So what we do now is we introduce rotation crops, we plant Hydros every year to boost the biodiversity. So after a crop of volume I put in beans it'll put the nitrogen back in the soil. It'll again

14:00 Putting nitrogen eggs. And I think you're talking right my alley over my knees like, let's talk coding.

14:07 It's a big part of it right you've got a good whiskey comes from good ingredients. Sure we take that very seriously, but we're the only Irish distillery that would be surrounded by its own land bank. So we've got 1500 acres surrounding the distillery. I grew up about 2000 tons of barley, and you can make a lot of whiskey from that. So that was one of the reasons we got into the business in the first place. My Irish Whiskey journey, I guess, started I was a brand ambassador back in 1999, working on the leading Irish whiskey in the category, so that was where my journey started. But it wasn't until the Reddit is a Jamison Bernie che was okay, just a guess. Yeah. And you know, and that that brand has opened up the category for Irish. And now I think people are looking for a little bit more choice, but

14:52 we started our own journey with the whiskey app slain, really back in around 2009. So slightly

15:00 At that time, the family home is called slaying castles. So that's where I grew up big old rambling place pretty cold, but wonderful. Hide and Seek was good. And this is this is like real castles not like Walt Disney kind of castles is real. It's a real kitty castle. Yeah, and this is a real one. But there's a big responsibility to a place like that going. So we have survived by diversifying and back in the early 80s. My dad Henry, who I started this brand with decided he was going to turn the front garden into a rock music venue. And so we started doing rock concerts in 81. With a you to the opening act at first show.

15:42 Yeah, so that was good. And the gate you do? Well, they were just starting out everybody, somewhere. And then since then we've had everyone from the stones, Bowie Springsteen, and on three weeks time, we're gonna be having Metallica arriving and we just went to Metallica city.

16:00 It's awesome. Yeah, it's really good. He's had the chance to meet all those people. But now he gets the idea. It's like that

16:07 level, right? This is the real highlight. Yeah, we're the A plus plus. Yeah, totally. So that's gonna be a good show, and we'll be selling, slain to that crowd. So we're gonna have a bit of fun. So we came out of rock and roll and capitalized on the awareness of slain. By adding value to the barley, we grow ourselves and turning into whiskey, which is something that we love drinking. But learning how to make it was a whole different journey. I want to hit on this rock and roll part a little bit more. So kind of like why why did the idea of saying like, let's just turn the front garden into a concert venue, like a field of dreams, we'll build it and they will come? Yeah, well, slightly. So Ireland was a pretty tough place in the late 70s, early 80s. We had some difficult times in the country and dad loved his rock and roll. And he had to find ways to bring extra income in in that climate. And he just said, let's give a chance for everyone to forget about the troubles for a day and come together through music and practice.

17:00 approached him from Belfast, and they didn't have any money to put the gig on so a guy from the east on the lending who became known as Mr. Everything, because everything's gonna be alright and

17:12 he put up the money and they managed to put that first gig on and then you know we're now Ireland's leading outdoor music. How many people are we talking about? 80,000 Wow, wow. Okay, so it's a big garden so it's like Nokes, or I forget, I forget it's like a castle like I got to keep that in my head here like it's pretty massive. Yeah, not for castle. Yeah, but yeah, an actual castle. Yeah, so lots of people have made that journey to slain and I know they get the chance to try the whiskey while sir or while so there as well. So we're going to be smashing it. Some slang cocktails on the day for Metallica. So should be good fun. You gotta get a particular cocktail you go to because around here it's it's old fashions Manhattan's you know that's that's kind of the go twos and you can mix it with a rye or bourbon, but kind of talk about like a an Irish type of cocktail. It's used with Irish whiskey. Yeah, well, funny. There's there's a good amount of

18:00 American influence in slain and actually makes a surprisingly good old fashioned no that's maybe a little controversial as we're hearing a lot about okay, but we've got our readers off some really nice heavy brown sugar notes in the liquid and I think that works very well for an old fashioned in fact the bath one of the better ones I've tasted had no sugar syrup a little huh no it's that's the way to do it. I mean, you know, no flavor additives or anything like that. The D model the cherries or do you kind of like I love a bit of modeling you know? Yeah.

18:31 No muddler no muddler for you? Yeah, but you got you got to do the look sardos yeah they're like oh my god I'll delicious if there's there's no like sorrows and like send it back. Now getting so geographically where where is slain? So you're talking in between Dublin and Belfast on the East Coast were a few miles inland, as I said in the boiling Valley. So if you're heading straight up from Dublin about 45 minute journey

18:58 and we literally have the room

19:00 Boyne which is our water supply for the distillery flows right through the farm. Okay, well with the rock who's the you met some cool people I know obviously us but who are some of the most memorable or do you have any stories like of festivals like that? You know Come on. Yeah, well when I when it comes to what happens with artists what what what happens in slain stays and slay it's like Vegas, but Nivea. I have been lucky enough to to to meet some and and

19:28 Dave Grohl springs to mind when the Foo Fighters played. He was an absolute gentle learner in here he performed in the pouring rain and did an outstandingly good gig. Total gentleman. So yeah, I think they love coming to slain because it's a very special place. There's a benefit of the Irish crowd. We got the backdrop of the castle and the river and then of course the whiskey added bonus. So talk about Irish whiskey. What makes obviously being from Ireland, but what what goes into an Irish was good and makes it you know, unique.

20:00 So I think Irish is a category is seeing some really strong growth in this country and it's doing doing pretty well in Kentucky for us. I think it's a very approachable category. So in terms of the definitions, we got a pretty extensive technical file that governs the rules are making Irish whiskey and I won't go into too much detail but what's different about slain I suppose the distillery is we actually make three different types of whiskey at the whim of distillery. So across the water in Scotland, you typically have a malt distillery or you have a grain distillery. slains actually got pots and columns. So we got three parts deals, because we believe in triple distillation. And then we got six column stills, because we're a protected heritage site. So we can build two tall columns, which would be what you normally do, we have to split the two into three and six columns. That allows us to make three different types of Irish whiskey. So you've got grain whiskey, which is a little similar

21:00 To I guess American as in its column distilled can be a mash bill of malt and other cereals. Then we make triple cereals that's that's when we don't hear too often. You know, most people will talk about different grains, you know, early cereals too often Yeah. Is that an Irish thing? Or just I guess is that is that analogous to a? No, that's probably maybe a bit of an Alex thing. I am a farmer. So I guess we grow different cereals on the farm, primarily barley, though. But the pot stills that we have, we make two different types of whiskey out of that we do a triple still malt whiskey, which is from 100% malted barley, so that's kind of similar to scotch. But then we do something called parts still, which is only made in Ireland. And you take a malted and unmalted, barley and the mash bill and you run it through the pot stills, and that leads to some really big charactered kind of quite oily, delicious whiskies that develop dried fruit nuts, they get older, and we are making that claim now but it's going to take a bit of time for those to be ready. So that's a few years away. What we're focusing

22:00 on now is our slain blend. And I think you asked what makes Irish whiskey. Not all Irish Whiskey is triple distill, but a lot of it is and we believe in that too. And that delivers a really lovely, smooth, accessible character. But what we've done on top of that is we've developed a triple cast maturation. So that adds character. So triple the steel for smoothness, triple cost for character. What do you mean by triple cast? So like, is it honoring? Sure, sure. It says it right here in the label. Let me see. So we've got a, I see virgin, Virgin season and Sherry. Okay, so it is right there in the label. Yeah, so three very different animals. So as they go through each cask in separately or as a like a blend of the three different guests know, so it's a little bit like when you're mixing your music, we like to do them separately so that you get a lot more control, because then when it comes to the blending of the three, you can actually fully dial in to the impact of the one barrel. So this is not a sequential, we're not taking the same batch and running.

23:00 Through a library. So effectively what we what we did is so the distillery went into production about a year and a half ago. So fairly recently now anyone who knows anything about whiskey is you don't make whiskey that quick. So to get ourselves started, we actually bought malt and grain whiskey from other distilleries in Ireland, between three and about 10 years. And it was good juice. But we wanted to try and create our own flavor profiles. So we actually took that liquid, we blended it in different proportions and split it between three different barrels for roughly two more years, and that secondary maturation are owned. So let's we'll feed through the same violin program, but it's those three different barrels that give you the unique kind of rich, robust character slang. So is that pretty is that common and are like this, so for sourcing to start out, because it's pretty common here? Yeah. So we're up to, we're up to about a, I think, close to 20 distilleries, okay, and come from a base of only three

24:00 So this has all happened in the last five years or so. So Irish Whiskey just like it is happening here a lot of distilleries are springing up and yeah to get themselves started. They are they are sourcing from others and we did that too. And we're we're perfectly honest about that. I guess the difference is we didn't just buy what we bought and create a plan and put it out to market we actually spent two years doing our own maturation at slain to try and build our own flavor profile. Is it so like here when we source was I don't we source our own? Do you have to go like through brokers and like or can you just go straight to the story? What's the process like over there? To buy the whiskey? Yeah, to that whiskey. Yeah, I mean, at one time Irish Whiskey because of the growth that was going on, it was pretty hard to get supply. But we were lucky enough that we did get some good juice and some of it was quite old as well, which wasn't wasn't easy, and we probably paid a pretty penny for it. But again, we wanted to deliver one slain launch, we wanted the best possible liquid and that's why we bought good whiskey to start

25:00 With and did spend an extra two years staying out of the market to add that triple cast character. So it came with a cost but I think it was worth it for sure in this was 2009 timeframe is when this started. And then I started out small reasons. So the 2009 we originally myself and dad, we played in the whiskey sector and slightly different brand attached to slain initially. So we worked with other distilleries at that time. And then there was big changes in the industry and about 2012 big acquisitions happened. And we actually lost our supply at that stage. And then we did what I had always wanted to do, which was to build our own distillery, because ultimately, the only way to have full control and credibility, I think, is to build your own distillery and it was a bit of a crazy journey to get there. But But we did. So when you're you approached your dad, you're like, we're gonna start a whiskey company, her words, you know, what was his initial reaction? Yeah, I mean, look, if you

26:00 grow up in a place like slain. Dad always taught me you know you are, you're never going to own this place. You're just protecting it for the next generation. So that that that long term vision, you need that in the whiskey business. So nothing happens in a day. So people thought were a bit crazy was actually dad's idea to start it and dad as a maverick. I mean, he was the guy who opened the front garden and invited them Lizzie to come stomp around so he what he wasn't fitting was another good banner. Yeah, well, one of the great tracks whiskey in the jar, you know, which dad used to love playing in the nightclub, which we also haven't had in the castle back in the day. So whiskey.

26:38 Whiskey was always a global bag with you.

26:42 I got a big suitcase.

26:44 But, uh, No dad, it was dad's idea to start the whiskey because he he puts laying on the map through the gigs and we wanted to find a way to I guess capitalize on that. Plus, you know, he and I love drinking whiskey and we're already

27:00 growing the raw materials so that the kind of the stars aligned. And to see these buildings which are right next to the castle, they're the old 18th century stables. And ultimately they were linked to the farm. So they had grain stores, for example, they now they are now home to the distillery. So we're kind of its history repeating a few like, we're adding the value on site, creating local employment and making some great whiskey. So like, we're when you're starting a whiskey company over there, like are you like, because I'm assuming you didn't know how to make whiskey if I didn't. So is there like consultants and experts kind of like your you know, their, you know, the late day pick roll a lot of people use to kind of, you know, help get them started getting the recipes figured out? How did y'all go about that? So I would have to say the Irish Whiskey industry is very collaborative, and I got a lot of good support from other people in the industry. I asked a hell of a lot of people a lot of questions and I kind of learned as I as I went along. I learned a little bit of I guess, from my

28:00 Ambassador is a little bit about selling whiskey but didn't know much about making it. Now I don't profess to be a master distiller and master blender. But if we were going to build a distillery, I needed to know what we were doing and where we were putting our money. So I visited distilleries in Ireland, Scotland over here in America probably annoyed a lot of people a lot of questions. But we built up what I would call a old school distillery in terms of how we make the whiskey. So we got wooden wash backs, we got a hand beaten, copper pot stills, three of them. But when it comes to how we kind of make it, there's a lot of state of the art stuff there as well. So sustainability is something that's really important to me. And so we have a lot of energy recovery built in. So whenever we're heating something up, we're cooling something down. And we've even invested in an anaerobic digester on site which will take those what some people call waste. After distillation. We'll be feeding that to microorganisms.

29:00 They create by gas and when we burned by gas to heat stills, so that's going to reduce our carbon footprint by about 25 to 30%. So everything was slain is built to last and I hope that was slain. You know, it's not just about protecting for the next generation, it's actually leaving at that and when you start it, that's all right. Where did you get that from? Was that, you know, was that ingrained in your family? Or is that yes, I think ingrained in family and it's just it's, I guess, my own personal belief.

29:28 My wife Kareena, who? Who runs an amazing glamping site, and other reason comes slain on long like glamping Yeah, that's been a thing. I'm sorry. It's glamping be right up your alley. It's like camping for for techies. Oh, exactly. I'm, I'm on board. Yeah. So so we have an organic farm and we grow veggies and we rare animals and we obviously produce barley. But the glamping allows people to kind of stay in immerse themselves in the landscape. So that kind of lower footprint style of living is just hi myself in Korean. I like to live our lives. If we

30:00 Can and the lessons that we've learned that we apply to how we make our whiskey. Talk about your dad, kind of like what those lessons that he put on you or like. He said he was a maverick, but he is kind of talking about more about him. So he's a maverick, but he's got great intent. And, you know, he has done, you know, I wouldn't be sitting here and we wouldn't be involved in slaying if he hadn't kept the show on the road by by putting those gigs on back in the day. And he's a very resilient, determined individual. He's also one of my best friends. And we've had a lot of fun working together. I think what he taught me is you, you need to be prepared to take risks in life.

30:41 But just don't hurt anybody along the way.

30:44 And do things as as best you can. And I think that's how we've tried to approach the whiskey and that's why we ultimately stayed out of the market a little bit longer to spend those two extra years and proven the whiskey. So I think he's he's taught me to

31:00 I guess the other big lesson is do what you love but make sure you have fun doing it. So kind of talk about his his growth path because was was he ever involved in the whiskey industry he just like drinking was, again joy drinking that he didn't have any connection to to to whiskey in the past. So it's a new thing for us as a family. Bryce's closest connection was you working working? Yeah, well, it's I guess, yeah. And maybe I guess that's where, you know, when he had that lightning bolt of let's get into the whiskey business. I just as soon as he sat at all the pennies dropped. I was like, You are so right. This is something we need to do. And people thought we were crazy to do it at the time because it's a good few years ago, and I've been at this for 10 years. But look at where Irish Whiskey is now and where it's going. You know, it's really growing as a category in this country. And this is the number one market in the world for Irish Whiskey America. So it's important not in Ireland. No art DPR

31:59 the Irish had gotten behind.

32:00 You know, we were down to very few brands a few years ago and, and it's great to see all these distilleries springing up and more and more people are coming to Ireland for Irish whiskey, you know, you've got the Kentucky bourbon trail here, which is amazing. But the Irish Whiskey trail is getting going as well. So I would encourage anybody who does want to come to Ireland to make sure they get on that trail and, you know, short come to slain but there's lots of other good distilleries as well, to kind of talk about the bootstrapping process you know, you want to go and you want to start creating a distillery you know, Ryan already talked about the, you know, finding the right people and figuring that out. But like, monetarily, like you've gotta you got to figure out like, how far in debt Do we have to go to figure this out are quite fun. Yeah.

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33:59 You

34:00 Got it. You got to figure out like how far debt Do we have to go to figure this out are quite far. Yeah.

34:06 It's still going. Yeah. So yeah, no, we did look we were we were lucky in that we ended up partnering with with Brian foreman, and myself and dad financed everything on the project up until 2015. So we hadn't laid a brick so to speak, but we had started restoring the the yards. We had designed the entire distillery and that meant our own efforts, but we did bring in some very talented people. We had a scotch stellar on board. We had one of the people who originally designed the Middleton distillery, which is down in County Cork, so we had a good team on board. And one of the proudest moments actually was when brown Forman came on board. And we shared that our technical designs we kind of expected, you know, hey, we know what we're doing making whiskey. We'll do it our own way, but actually they took the designers read and made a couple of

35:00 modifications on energy recovery that I hadn't spotted, but generally they took it as read. But financing it was was tough up until that point and we had to pay the deposit on all of the stills. Our sales come from Macmillan and Scotland. There's only two makers. There's an unsightly left and Ireland but there's four sides to Macmillan, we went with Macmillan. And that was a pretty penny to pay that deposit. And had we not done that we would have lost our place in the queue because there's such demand for stills. So I had a few sleepless nights over that one. But I was lucky enough to meet Gavin Brown, who's one of the brown family members. And we had an amazing lunch where we spoke about the potential for Irish Whiskey but actually more about what it means to be a family business and thinking about next generation. And ultimately, that led further down the road to getting the deal done. And we got that done in 2015. And pretty much as soon as we signed that deal. We started building the distillery who made that initial call or new

36:00 Meaning, like really seeking you an Irish Whiskey coming out? Or were you like looking for investors to kind of help get you past that dip? You know, is this that I call? Yeah, Brian foam was a company audit mode for for a long time. And they I knew they had publicly stated they wanted to get into the Irish category. So I guess we both had something the other party wanted but ultimately, you're like I got exactly what you're looking for. Yeah, but that's not the way it comes down to the people. And, and ultimately, it's about relationships and myself and dad felt comfortable working with what is essentially another family business. And not only that, they know how to make great whiskey. And what's really exciting about what's happened with slain or bland is actually the barrels that they bring to the table as well, because we have, I guess an advantage over some of the other brands in terms of those barrels that we can access. Mm hmm. You have an endless supply. I've seen it. Yeah, we do. We have an endless supply, but it's not just the

37:00 It's not just the level of supply, it's the quality that goes with us. Sure. So we've been able to tap into some barrels that others just can't, I'm always interested in, because I'm an entrepreneur, but not nearly on your own scale. But like, when you get absorbed by, you know, not absorbed or purchased by another company. What's it like, like, because you're when you're, you're doing everything you can to hustle and mostly make it work and do everything. And then every decision goes through you, but now you have like, you know, a parent company to kind of like, guide you and teach you like, how's that? Like, like, because you're like, Well, I know what I'm doing. But they're like, No, we know what we're doing. So what's that relationship? Why Yeah, it's a it's a transition. I guess. It's an intriguing question. I think a good one. You know, when you've I remember in the early days when the phone rang, and be like, you know, hello, welcome slaying whiskey and they're like, Can I can I speak to a marketing department? It's like, Yeah, sure.

37:52 Hello.

37:54 So you get the dollar. So

37:57 yeah, let me check to see if the rain yeah

38:00 I completely that's how it works, right and, and you're fighting as a small and then suddenly you got all of these resources and additional people.

38:09 For me, it's worked really well, because they have been incredibly inclusive, I'm still very involved in everything from liquid decisions to how we communicate about brand and how we behave. So I think the key to success is making sure that you respect and include what you started with, and it's gone better than expected. They're really good people to work with. So they're going to help embrace your core principles. Absolutely. Yeah. But they bring so much to the table. It's not just the barrels, you know, they got they got great technical expertise. So when we were when we were putting the blend together that involved it was a collaborative approach between Ireland and and some of the expertise over here, you know, and, and that worked really, really well. So I think it's a it's, I'm happy with where it's landed, for sure. So how big is the operation now?

39:00 That's over and slain. So the distillery can produce roughly we're not up to that yet, but if it could probably about the equivalent of about 600,000 cases of whiskey a year, but we're, you know, we're we're warming up slowly. young age. Yeah, you got age. So there's one thing you need in this business, it's patience. Yeah. But you know, because we make three different types of whiskey and we're planning for the future, as well as supplying stuff that will feed into the blend, where we're pretty busy. We're not up to capacity, but production certainly ramping up. So bourbon like typical as you know, alright, before we can start selling it was it with Irish as though the rules are kind of three years in a day, okay. But, you know, I would never want us to release anything until it's ready. And that's kind of the key is just give it the time it needs. Having tastes a lot of Irish I think, certainly over for the minimum for the grain.

40:00 Then malt is going to take longer. And then pot still actually takes the longest. So that's why our launches will come over, you know, give me 20 years, we'll have a lot of rain. And I'm looking forward to that. But we just focus on the blend for now. Very cool. Well, let's try it. Yeah, let's let's actually right. We've done a lot of talk him and he's, yeah, Do y'all have like a jeers thing in Irish last what was what was the scotch one? I guess? So it's similar. It's all derived from Gaelic, okay, so scotch Gaelic and Irish Gaelic? reasonably similar. But in Ireland, it's a little different. So it's launcher. launcher. launcher in a second. Okay, okay. I don't think it's actually a word, but I just made it one. So kind of kind of talk about the whiskey a little Sure. Okay, so firstly, it's an Irish Whiskey blend. So blends account for a good a good proportion of Irish Whiskey volume that is sold.

40:53 Blend means you're putting two different whiskey types in this case together. So you put malt whiskey and grain whiskey.

41:00 In the same in the same blend. However, what we did was the whiskey that that we originally purchased would have all been in American whiskey barrels, which

41:11 the vast majority of Irish and scotch is matured in American whiskey barrels because you guys can only use them once here and we are very grateful thanks very not very sustainable. Well, you know it Do you know what, it's fine because those barrels do not go to waste very, we say thanks a million we'll have those so they come over to Ireland. So that had all been an American whiskey barrels. But as I said, we then spent two years doing a secondary maturation which is which is the triple cost it brings all this lovely character. So when we're tasting slain probably makes sense to talk about these vowels individually and we can try and pick up some of that some of the notes that are there. So I just threw this will do so. Start on the nose. Now probably one of the things is going to hit you strongly as this lovely vanilla hit. Nice rich have even Yeah, for me. It's like

42:00 boozy banana foster like, bananas false now you're talking my language. Yeah, it's like, yeah, real boozy with the we talked about the caramelized sugars. You know, the torch just got off of it. Yeah, no, I like that. Actually, that delves into the second barrel. I'll focus on the first one. Sorry. No, no, no, you're totally right because a banana foster now is absolutely where we're at. And I'm delighted to pick that up. The vanilla head that comes first is really coming from that first barrel, which is a virgin American oak. made right here in Kentucky at Brown Forman cooperage. Now what's special about this barrel is it's customized specifically for slain. So all of the research and development of brown Forman have been able to do on different levels of toasting and charring is fed into this barrel. So it's like a, it's a heavy toast, medium char. And that toast is really what makes the difference because it helps to draw out the van islands that then become vanilla.

43:00 So using virgin oak for an Irish Whiskey blenders is pretty unusual as what the SEC is most probably aren't united that not they're not. But what is unique is this barrel was made specifically for us for slain and it does deliver that really lovely kind of aromatic vanilla hit nose. Now you will mention that banana Foster and that kind of moves really neatly into the second barrel. So our second barrel we call seasoned seasoned, as you probably know, that's just a term that means someone was living in that barrel before.

43:33 And it's an old veteran. Yeah, exactly.

43:37 In this case.

43:40 So it is American whiskey. Most American whiskey barrels, a lot of them end up in Ireland. However, the challenge with that is if you're an Irish distillery, you're typically going to be buying a barrels maybe through a dealer say say Calvin cooperage, for example, or you might have a relationship with another distillery like order stellar say, Heaven, Hell or an artist.

44:00 Brown Forman, but the challenges that they actually make lots of different whiskies and the rain, really any track or trace. So when those barrels arrive in Ireland, you don't know exactly it's labeled as murder and completely so the way the industry deals with it is by blending it all together. However, because of our relationship with brown Forman, we're able to focus in on particular barrels. So we're primarily using as our season we're primarily using a Tennessee whiskey barrel or a jack daniels barrel. And that delivers very particular flavor notes.

44:32 Also, those barrels have to be shipped wet because otherwise they're going to dry out and live on their island Island. So there's a little bit of liquid in there and we are not throwing that away. We're just pouring our whiskey in on top. So the net result is you're picking up some of those lovely flavors. So ripe banana is absolutely coming from that barrel. And then Irish whiskeys tend to be blends tend to be nice and sweet. But that sweetness can go from like a nice, light clear honey to a much heavier dark branch.

45:00 Nothing that comes out of slain is light or fluffy. We're in the business of kind of rich and complex. So I wanted us to get to a heavier sugar note and that's where that second barrel the season barrel really comes in. So you actually you're right on the money with a banana sauce. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the torch came in. I mean, it's, it's basically like we're two bourbon casks already. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, for us. It's an easy transition. Yeah. And I think that that's a good point. You know, some people have described this as an as an Irish whiskey, a good Irish Whiskey for bourbon drinkers. Because I think there are some familiar familiarities and similarities there, for sure that American influences is definitely there. Do they hook you up on the yeast do here or do you have to use your own power there? So at the moment, we're just using standard distillers used to have our distillery however, brown Forman are one of the few companies that do cultivate their own yeast strains. So I think that's maybe something to look out for the future for sure, because I always get like brown sugar notes out of the old forester yeast. Yeah.

46:00 Whatever but yeah anywho but I'll quit talking let you know

46:05 why we're drinking whiskey. This is good. So I think if we had just finished with those two barrels, we would have ended up with an Irish Whiskey that probably just tasted a little too like an American whiskey. So we needed we needed something to kind of balance that influence. Now. The person who got me drinking Irish Whiskey was was my grandpa way back in the day probably before he should have but that's a whole nother story. A common theme.

46:32 Yeah, but he was a lovely man, but he loved his Irish whiskies that had a Sherry cask influence. Now quite a lot of Irish Whiskey does have a Sherry cask influence. And that really stems from our history where before American whiskey took off, and all of those lovely barrels became available, we would have used what was coming into the country, which was wine, port and Sherry. And so out of those ones, the Sherry ones were the ones that really captured my imagination.

47:00 In the early days of drinking whiskey, and that's kind of stayed as a theme. So, at the time brown Forman didn't know I guess too much about the Sherry side of things. They have their scotch brands now. So that's that's changed but at the time, I had to convince them the importance of what a Sherry barrel could do. So we actually we went out to her wrath in Spain, and we taste a lot of sherry there was a lot of fun amazing food out there. But what's been yeah are fantastic. But what a Sherry barrel does for for Irish Whiskey as it It adds this fantastic body and depth and lots of color. So we're talking about an Allah Rosso Sherry cask. It's been seasoned with Allah Rosso for a full two years before we even look at it. It's then shipped wet, over to slain and again we pour our whiskey in on top, and very quickly, it starts to take on lots of lovely color and these characteristics so

48:00 So going back on the nose, behind your banana Foster and the vanilla and those lovely sugar notes you may pick up a little bit of a almost like a raisin or a kind of date note maybe even a little bit of fig so you're kind of getting into dried fruit territory and that's the primary influence that Sherry cask and also get like a graham cracker kind of yeah smell on it. That's probably from the barley that I'll dig out what a graham cracker was until, like two states but I get you Yeah, I'm the I'm the I'm sorry I don't know commentary.

48:36 No, I I totally get you but on the pilot.

48:40 So I find it's as easy as easy to gravitate towards Yeah, so IRA dangerous, delicious. Good. dangerously delicious. Oh, yeah. That Yeah, so welcome. If you're if it's smooth, right and Irish is generally has that lovely smoothness but it is full body on the palate.

49:00 Like I said, it's got a lot of depth at the end like Nevada's smooth products, they kind of the finished falls flat, whereas this one's still kind of building a little bit on Yeah, I guess it's, it's a nice linger. I think where the Sherry cast comes in is there's this lovely little brain or kind of baking spice note right at the end.

49:19 And it kind of it's not, it's not Bice by any means, but it's a nice little kind of spice at the end. And that's really coming from that Sherry cask. And it's kind of like, nutty or creamy, like peanut buttery. Yeah, at the end. I don't know. I'm pulling all the stops today.

49:36 But so this is I was looking at the bottle. So this is 40%. So 80 proof, correct. kind of talk about the reason of going to 80 and not 9095 whatever it is, I don't really know honestly because us we don't know the Irish Whiskey industry that well so I don't know if like if that's a common thing. Generally most Irish Whiskey blends will be at proof. That's fairly standard for

50:00 For a blend, if you start getting into your, into your single malt or certainly a single pot stills, you know, that can get a bit of variation, sometimes a little bit higher. We settled at 80 proof, which again, is fairly standard because we just felt it worked really well at that level. Now, it is strong enough to hold up, you know, one of my favorite ways to drink and slaying would be on the rocks. So in that way, it behaves a little bit like a bourbon.

50:27 And it needs it.

50:30 I guess. Yeah, I mean, nothing wrong with it neat. And you have this with a banana pudding or something like that. It's fantastic. But put it on the rocks and it holds up, it doesn't wash out. And that was really important when we put this together. So it is designed to be a whiskey that's good on its own, but it's not going to get lost in a cocktail or get washed out when you throw some ice at it. What's the typical proof when you're dumping these before you cut it? So typically, well we put it into the barrel at about 62 and a half

51:00 alcohol. So that's what 120 and doing my mask in my head, yeah, I'm terrible around 120 proof we use Excel a little a little lighter.

51:08 And depending on what style of whiskey you're making, so our malt would be, we'd be taking off a pretty high proof around 160 or so. And then we're going to reduce that down. The grain whiskey element is very high. I mean, grain whiskey is not far off of what you'd be doing grain usual. So you're talking about 96 97% alcohol. So it's, it's very strong. So you got to reduce that down again to around 62 and a half percent alcohol before you put it in the barrel. And then what's the what's the kind of aging that you're looking to do? Or what's in this bottle today? I mean, we, we already learned that it's gotta be, what, three years and three years at a day or three years and three days, two years, three years and three years in a day, so? Yeah.

51:54 So in terms of maturation, the key to this product is is that triple cast for extra characters.

52:00 So it started out living in an American barrel for a good number of years. So the malt and the grain, they were all the stock we bought was different ages, some of it was up to 10 years old. And then we're adding extra time on that with a triple cast, which is roughly two years. So that gives you an idea of how old some of the whiskey isn't that blend. And then we'll be phasing in our own juice, you know, hasn't when it's ready, but it all goes through the same barreling program. And that's, that's how we get the consistent try to keep it consistent throughout the time. Yeah, stuff like that, too. Yeah. talks about the packaging who's Yeah, a little different. No, yeah. It's a bit different. And then you've got it got this. Is this the crest that we're talking about that? Yeah. So you asked why the why was in the cutting of name and it kind of it's tied to this, this sort of hay fork that is at the center of the crest. And that's so that goes back to my family's time in the 1100s. At that stage, we're in Scotland, we landed in Ireland and 1605. But there was a rebel Prince Malcolm, who was on the run from

53:00 Macbeth of the Shakespearean origin of Macbeth wasn't a particularly nice dude. So

53:06 Malcolm was on the run, he came to Cunningham's farm and cutting could have surrendered the fugitive or he could stand up for what he believed in which was a rebellion. He hid Malcolm Malcolm survived as a result, defeat him at birth and became king Malcolm the second and he went back and rewarded Cunningham with a bit of land and an arboreal to celebrate the occasion and he chose the hay fork that he had used to hide Malcolm in the hay and hay loft. It's a it's a symbol of rebellion, perseverance, determination, and that's what it took to get the slain whiskey project done and that's why we put it on the bottle. And then it is a black glass bottle so it's a little different. black and red have been our family colors for centuries. And I guess it was a little bit more rock and roll. So we just felt it. It set the right tone for for the whiskey

53:58 and you

54:00 We have a lot of fun putting that together. And actually, when we did the excavations around the distillery because it's all on the national list of protected structures, we found some really, really old bottles. None intact. Unfortunately, they were black glass. So that kind of confirmed that sticking with black made sense. Nice, as I say, so I'm a I'm a product of the 80s. I don't know if you were big into like, 80s movie culture, but I saw that and I was like, it's a, it's the flux capacitor. It's right there on the bottle. Nice. Okay, I hadn't seen that. But there you go. There you go. Actually, I think it might be upside down. But it's a dolly. But you know, really the whiskies really good. I think, you know, this is our first really good introduction, at least for the podcast due to Irish whiskey and knowing more about it, and knowing more about the history and sort of, really where it's stemming from as well. You know, if you were to like, give our listeners like a good reason, like, you know, they're bourbon drinkers right there. They're real bourbon drinkers or bourbon nerds. Like what's what's the

55:00 Selling pitch that you would give to a bourbon drinker to say, go out and try this. I think if you enjoy bourbon you're going to enjoy trying slain because Bourbons generally are very much flavor forward. Okay? And in the Irish category, that's what slain is all about, you know, and people are moving between brands and between categories a bit more. If you want to step outside of bourbon and get something that has an element of familiarity, but it's going to give you something a little bit different and slains a good a good call. So those heavy brown sugar notes, the hits of vanilla, those are going to be familiar, but you add in that heavy dried fruit notes, little bit of spice, it's coming from the Sherry. That's gonna be a nice, I guess, step away without having to jump too far.

55:46 Yeah, it's one of the richer kind of Irish whiskeys I've ever had. I've had powers and I've had dabbled into like Red Berets and you know stuff, but it's definitely got more than more depth than I remember of other Irish Whiskey products. So very impressed.

56:00 Well done. Thank you very much Well, we had a lot of fun not meant to get knocked out Shakespeare got to now you've knocked out a whiskey brand so we're really Wait How can you even top this? Good question I think by focusing on our on our ultra premiums further down the road so give me a decade I'll have more to talk about. Yeah.

56:21 So with the ultra premium category because we don't really know the Scott or sorry, the the Irish kind of ultra premium category, like what's that look like in in your vision? What would that entail as well? So I think in 20 years time, we're gonna be all talking about the Irish answer to scotch single malt which is pot still. So single pot still whiskies which bring that on malted barley into the mash bill, create this really lovely, rich, complex, quite oily, characterful whiskey and we are making that at slain. So we just made our first batches not too long ago, the new makers fantastic. So when that hits the word, it's going to lead some great whiskey

57:00 So it's a fairly small category within Irish at the moment, but I think it's going to be where the real kind of high end higher end of the market growth is going to happen over the next 20 years. So watch this space. Stay tuned. So what's what's the price point for a product like this? For slain yellow for the current bland depending on which market you're in for a 750? You're talking in and around 30 bucks a bottle? Oh, wow. Yeah. So yeah, so we when we won the gold medal at the Irish whisky awards, one of the really nice positive feedbacks was that we kind of over delivered on flavor for that price point because we were competing with more expensive whiskies. So that only up for a case. Yeah.

57:43 That was always the aim. We wanted to make something that was smooth, approachable, full flavored, and affordable. Yeah, we hit all three. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like for us, I think this was a valuable lesson and getting schooled and Irish whiskey. And, you know, Alex, thank you so much for coming on the show today because

58:00 It was it was a pleasure to not only meet you and hear your story, you know Yeah, I know You came all the way from Ireland for us and so we really appreciate that you know, it's a it's a badge of honor for us to have you on the show. Thank you. Well listen, I always love drinking Irish whiskey in the heart of bourbon country

58:16 like this Yeah. Trading traders. Traders for an hour. Yeah, sorry Chris Morris.

58:23 Now appreciate Alex very cool story and ton of history of your family. That's incredible. What I'd love to come over there and party party for a week Come on. We should do burn get with Fred and do burn beyond like we can do bourbon workshops are Irish Whiskey workshops over there, you know? Yeah. and beyond. Yeah, slightly beyond Irish Whiskey pursuit, watch. Go watch that trademark. Be gone tomorrow.

58:47 Another question before we go or another opportunity for you to tell our audience how they can learn more about slain. If you're any kind of social media or slain. How can they find out more about that? Yeah, sure. So

59:00 The website slain Irish whiskey.com that's a good place to start. Obviously if you are lucky enough to get to Ireland come and see the distillery because that really brings it to life.

59:11 You can find this on Instagram, slain Irish Whiskey as well. My own Instagram presence is Alex Cunningham with the Y co n y n th. Yeah, listen to the front. Yeah, remember how to spell you can find me on there. And yeah, that's a good good place to learn. I'd say you got a good man of information from the websites best place to start. What if we want to go glamping where do we go? So that is rock farm slain.ie for all and my wife loves glamping so there you go. Listen, you've got more and more reasons. My guests will be seeing you pretty soon I get there is home renovation first. there that's awesome. So again, Alex, thank you so much for coming on the show today and you know make sure you follow explain as well as him on all those social media channels. You can follow us bourbon pursuit, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and if you'd like

1:00:00 Like what you hear also make sure that you take a minute and just check out our Patreon page. It's a way that we help build and grow and fund the podcast day after day. Yep, I think you nailed it. So we'll see you next time. Cheers. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Three Chord Twelve Bar Reserve

Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:30:20 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Three Chord Twelve Bar Reserve. This 12 year old bourbon is 107 proof and $75 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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246 - Ezra, Rebel, and Blood Oath Pacts with Philip Lux of Lux Row Distillers

Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:30:25 GMT

Today’s episode features one of the largest spirits companies you might not know much about. You’ve heard of brands like Ezra Brooks, Rebel Yell, and Blood Oath, but there is a lot to discover about Luxco. We sit down with Philip Lux, Global Brand Ambassador at Lux Row Distillers and son of CEO Don Lux, as he guides us through the family history of the Lux’s along with their acquisitions of bourbon brands. Then we also get the inside scoop on what’s happening at Lux Row Distillers. After sourcing whiskey for many years, it became apparent they needed to build a distillery and they did it right in Bardstown, KY. We discuss the future of the brands and how they plan to grow and evolve. Don’t sleep on this location during your bourbon trail visit because the facility is incredible.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Find out what it’s like to taste whiskey straight from the barrel with Barrell Craft Spirits. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

Black Market Liquor Sales: https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredminnick/2020/03/19/wholesalers-warn-of-black-market-liquor-if-liquor-stores-close-amidst-coronavirus/#3b5445042e88
Supporting Spirits United: https://p2a.co/JRoHtT8
Bourbon Pursuit USBG Fundraiser: bourbonpursuit.com/usbg
Bourbon Crypto: https://www.coindesk.com/wave-financial-to-tokenize-20m-worth-of-bourbon-for-new-whiskey-fund
Pat Heist on TedX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSLWEnz-1mc
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about supporting craft distilleries.
What was your introduction to bourbon?
How did you get into the business?
What stands out about bourbon when you are traveling?
Talk about the difference between Luxco and Lux Row.
Did your dad ever tell you about how he had the foresight to acquire all these brands?
Tell us the story of David Nicholson.
Talk about Blood Oath.
Was Rebel Yell acquired the same time as David Nicholson?
Tell us about your bourbon portfolio.
When did you break ground on the facility?
Why did you decide to build in Bardstown and not St. Louis?
What is the difference between regular David Nicholson and the reserve?
Tell us about your still and capacity.
Any worries about your bourbon being ready in 4 years?
Are you trying to replicate the existing flavor profiles?
What is your storage capacity?
What is something that people might not know about your brands?
When is the Lux Bourbon coming?
Any plans to use this facility to support Luxco?
What issues have you had starting a distillery?

0:00 If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is a six course online program that will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry offered by the AACSB accredited college of business. This certificate is taught by business professors and industry leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory jack daniels and more. join this one of a kind experience and prepare for your next adventure. get enrolled into this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit.

0:38 Let's kind of talk about you know your history your your upbringing, because because you're you're young strapping lad your last names luck, so obviously you have something to do around here. Yeah.

1:00 Welcome back, everybody. It's Episode 246 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of the hosts. And here's your Cova 19 updates because a lot has changed since last week. Texas has temporarily adjusted its laws to be more lenient on the drinks industry and are now allowing alcohol as a part of to go orders. This is pretty big news because we know that anything in Texas that is regulated by alcohol is very, very hard to change. And they are also in listening distributor trucks that are designated for alcohol only delivery to support grocers and delivery needs during this time for roses distillery will temporarily suspend their operations of us distillery located in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, and that began on March 20 of 2020. And based on the current situation for roses expects to commence operations once again on April 6 of 2020. A new statement by the wine and spirits wholesalers of America or known as the W swa their CEO and President Michelle Cosmo warns that in a crisis

2:00 consequences are major concerns for industries and private citizens. And they implore all governors to keep Wine and Spirits retailers open as to not encourage bad actors to pop up black market liquor operations. Other industry partners including the distilled spirits Council of the United States, otherwise known as discus has made a similar statement. And Fred MiniK recently published an article on Forbes, referring to the actions taken by the state of Pennsylvania, where they closed the doors of all alcohol stores in the state that the same thing could happen to them, as it did during Prohibition. And you can read more with his article to the link in our show notes. Right now, many other distilleries are making hand sanitizer. Back on March 20 of 2020, the FDA issued a new guidance for the temporary manufacturing of hand sanitizer by companies and entities that are not currently regulated by the FDA as a drug manufacturer. The TTB or the Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau has found that it isn't necessary and desirable to waive provisions of internal

3:00 Revenue law with regard to distilled spirits, and therefore is providing certain exemptions and operations to distilled spirits permittees who wish to produce ethanol based hand sanitizers to address the demand during this emergency. any existing DSP can immediately commence production of hand sanitizer or ethanol for use in hand sanitizer without having to obtain authorization first. These measures are generally authorized under authorities that apply in disaster situations, and are right now approved through June 30 of 2020. There are now over 50 distilleries across the US that have switched to making hand sanitizer including big ones like wilderness trail, smooth Ambler town branch, rabbit hole, old Forester, and there's many more craft distilleries across the nation like co vault, Illinois, Coursera in Tennessee, and Caledonia spirits in Texas. I would love to be able to give everyone a shout out on here but you can contact your local distillery to see if they had any available Republic purchase in a day.

4:00 There's a lot of giving going on by bigger corporations. And here's some of the highlights. Beam Satori and southern Glaser's are donating $1 million to support the impacted bar and restaurant employees. Beam centaurea is also working with other distributors across various states, including major brands, badger liquor, Fenway associates, Allied beverage Corp, Empire distributors, best brands, horizon beverage group and more to provide donations to local organizations that will further help to support in the trade of their respective communities. biagio has also pledged $1 million to the US VG or the United States bartenders guild and their emergency assistance fun for Cova 19. biagio is also doing another million euros to support bartenders in the United Kingdom with a million million pounds. Brown Forman is donating $1 million to us big the restaurant workers Community Foundation and one level is separating between those three different organizations. gallows, New Amsterdam vodka and barstool sports

5:00 created a new t shirt highlighting support your local bartender program, where 100% of the net proceeds will go to us bartenders guild foundation. And additionally New Amsterdam will donate $5 for every t shirt purchased. Jamison donates another 500,000 to the US big mixers distillery in Philadelphia have made a $10,000 donation to the US BG patrol is donating $1 million to three different organizations. You have the children of restaurant employees otherwise known as core, another round another rally and the James Beard Foundation. Sasa rack and fireball Have you started a GoFundMe called the world's biggest tip jar by starting it off with $100,000 donation, and it will match all contributions up to $400,000 donations with everything going to tax exempt organizations. Tito's is donating $1 million between four organizations focused on those in the industry. We have the core, US big Southern smoke and the world central kitchen. They're all

6:00 pledging another additional $1 million as further needs are seen. Zamora is donating 400,000 euros to charities such as Caritas, the Red Cross and the food bank foundation. Yelp, who you all know the app is providing $25 million in relief in the form of waived advertising fees and free advertising, products services and more that during this period.

6:24 In addition, we're trying to do our part as well. bourbon pursuit we have our own fundraiser going to help support the US BG or the United States bartenders Guild. So at this time, you can go and you can win bottles of pursuit series and our latest peril picks from will it go to bourbon pursuit.com slash USB G to get entered into our raffle? We appreciate all the support.

6:47 Discuss that we talked about a little bit early before the distilled spirits Council of the United States is now asking the government to include distillers in the Cova 19 Relief Fund. distilleries across the nation have close tasting rooms suspended to

7:00 And cancel large events to limit the exposure of Cova 19. As a result, the Steelers have been forced to make difficult decisions, including in some cases shutting down production in laying off staff. As a result, many distilleries may not be able to survive during this crisis. distillers right now employ 1.6 million people across the country and generate 180 billion dollars in economic activity for the United States. You can help take action by supporting spirits united with your name and vote with the link in our show notes. This story poured out a little bit over last week, and I'm sure many people know about it, but we need to report on anyway because we all know about jack rose. It's that iconic whiskey bar in DC that's owned and operated by Bill Thomas. But you've heard back on episode 67 and 127. They're putting up all 2700 bottles for sale. In response to the escalating health and economic crisis. The public can now search through their treasure trove by stopping into the bar

8:00 browsing their whiskey Bible menu which is also available online and talking to Bill Thomas himself, you can order anything you want. That could mean 20 or 30 year old pours in our bag or MacAllan hard to find bullet family estates or jack roses own private barrels that are made in collaboration with Blanton's and other distilleries. The drums will be packaged in little sealed bottles that could be kept on your home bar in pours of the rare stuff or anything that's $100 plus an ounce will be 50% off while all other pours are 20% off. Thomas says he plans to offer the spirits at a lower price than what consumers would find on the secondary market. If you're in the area, they also have to go cocktails available from all three of their company bars, jack rose, Imperial and DRAM and grain and classics like old fashions a Manhattan's two visible creations that they all have starting at $10 each. The story is spread and when it broke, people were lined up for around five blocks. Their website crashed and they had to use Facebook and Instagram to let everyone know

9:00 Know how to contact to them. So please check out the jack rose social pages for the latest and up to date info on how to get your hands on anything. All right, let's change subjects for a minute. Let's get out of the coronavirus talk. Wave financial has finalized an agreement with Danville Kentucky based wilderness trail distilleries to tokenize between 10 and 20,000 barrels of whiskey worth up to around $20 million that will be made publicly available through a specialized digital asset fund. Now if that didn't make sense, this is turning bourbon inventory into cryptocurrency. So known as wave whiskey 2020 Digital fund, investors are able to purchase asset backed tokens linked to an inventory of whiskey barrel this year, that will represent as many as 4 million bottles of bourbon by tokenizing. It wave says that investors can gain exposure to Bourbons value appreciation and can also share some of the proceeds from when a whiskey is sold to wholesale to merchants and three years after the whiskey is first

10:00 Still, and the tokens are then issued to investors, users will be able to trade their tokens at whatever price they wish. And wave is also in discussions with some security token exchanges to develop an official secondary market infrastructure to facilitate better trading in the whiskey back tokens. A wave spokesperson added that the token was available for accredited investors from all around the world. And what they first closed at the end of March and a second at the end of June, a final close expected to take into place in September. You can read more about that with the link in our show notes. And didn't more wilderness trail news. The yeast and fermentation doctor from wilderness trail that we all know is Pat heist, who we had back on episode 121. That blew everyone's mind, had his first TED Talk published. It talks about the effect of climate on production and the quality of bourbon. And this was done at TEDx at the University of Nevada. Give it a listen on YouTube with the link in our show notes. All right for today.

11:00 Today's episode, we feature one of the largest spirits companies you probably don't know much about. You've heard of brands like Ezra Brookes, Rebel Yell and blood oath. But there is a lot to discover about Lux CO, we sit down with Philip Lux, the global brand ambassador of Lux ro distillers and he's also the son of the CEO Don Lux, as he guides us through the family history of Lexus, along with the acquisitions of their bourbon brands and labels. Then we also get the inside scoop on what's happening at Lux ro distillers. After sourcing whiskey for many years, it became apparent they needed to build a distillery and they did it right in Bardstown, Kentucky. We discuss the future of the brands and how they plan on growing and evolving. Also, don't sleep on this location during your bourbon trail visit because the facility looks incredible. Let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char

11:56 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. Tasting whiskey straight from the barrel was truly alive.

12:00 changing moment for me. In 2013 I launched barrel craft spirits so everyone could have the experience of tasting whiskey at CAST strength. Next time ask you bartender for barrel bourbon.

12:11 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char. I have some very, very staggering news. This just in from ACS a or better known as the American craft spirits Association. According to a survey of a CSA 150 craft of 150 craft distillers 67% will be forced to close within three months. 32% of those respondents said it, they won't even last a month 87% of all craft distillery tasting rooms have closed and 60% of the distilleries making craft spirits has already laid off employees or furloughed staff.

13:00 This is absolutely staggering to thousand small distillers across the country. And that survey tells us, we may very well lose two thirds of them in a matter of months. Those are people who have put it all in the line to do something that they love and, you know, want to really push the envelope. And this just breaks my heart. This just absolutely breaks my heart. The distilling community right now is trying to get federal support, you know, so they're basically looking for the same kind of federal funds that's going to be given to the airline industry in the hospitality industry. And here we are.

13:49 amidst this coronavirus scare, and we're about we're about to see a lot of a lot of great people lose their dreams. And that's just fair.

14:00 Very scary.

14:02 I think about what we do you know, Kenny Ryan and I, you know, this is, yeah, it's it's my job. But let's face it, I have a dream job. I talk and write about whiskey for a living like all the time. And I have some time said some things that are not so nice about craft whiskies. It was never anything personal. It's just about their whiskey. But never in a million years. What I wish this upon anybody in the industry, I can't even imagine, to begin to think of like, what it what it must be like right now to be a craft distiller and to know that if things don't change, you're going to have to shut down for good. So let's do what we can. Let's, let's do what we can Let's buy their products. And you may push back here and say, Hey, well, Fred, we can't go to the liquor store. Our governor is shut us down. We have to stay inside. You know, that's very well true. But get this. There's a

15:00 A lot of delivery services out there right now. That will bring a good old DRAM to your doorstep. You can go to silver box comm craft shack is another one you can go to drizzly calm, and these are all delivery services that will buy from a local retailer and deliver to you. Another one that you can join is called spirits network comm go to spirits network comm I actually have a lot of shows on there, but you can, you can buy booze, and then watch booze TV. So there's a lot of options out there that you can go to and buy craft whiskey or any kind of craft spirit. But listen, we have to band together we have to do what we can to help these small distillers because we can't lose them. We just can't. It's not.

15:51 It's very scary. It's absolutely very scary. And so let's do what we can let's band together. Hello

16:00 Let's save a distillery or two.

16:03 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you are checking out my YouTube I am dropping content every single day, in hopes of helping you get through the boredom. You can go to YouTube and just look for my channel. Just search my name Fred MiniK. Until next week, cheers

16:26 Welcome back to another episode of the bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan back in Bardstown on the road again often, but this is fun, we love going on the road. And today it's funny because, you know, we drive around bars and we do a lot of these interviews. However, this is one place that I had never driven up and we drive past it quite frequently especially if you're a frequent are over at Keystone liquors. Yeah, you drive by where the cinemas you have the movies in. It's right across the street. It is and but this is it's one place where I drove up and I was I was amazed like

17:00 How beautiful the grounds are here at Lux row distillers and being able to in the first thing that we saw a was like some house that you said your buddy grew up in that owned the land here. And then we saw their their resident peacocks. Oh yeah, yeah, this. I've been up this driveway many times. You know, it's a running joke that I say that I'm from Bardstown. But I am from bars town and grew up hanging out here with my buddy john and his family. So

17:29 it's a beautiful property got a bunch of old farmhouses gold house and some peacocks and they were like Kenny walked up and they kind of spread their feathers out I think they're excited to see Kenny And so yeah, maybe maybe see us Who knows? Yeah, but I've kind of been you know, just being in town seen the construction and everything but never really seen it till now. And man it's an it's an impressive property with all the distillery and everything. So it's all about the property. But you know, this is also we're getting a chance to talk to

18:00 About a company that's kind of like a unknown Titan in the industry, you know, it's they've had a lot of established brands that have been out there. For the longest time, it had been a sourcing product and now that they are sealing the light, they're like, Hey, we got to grow, we got to expand, we got to we got to start pumping out our stuff too. And so we know when we start talking about these brands, a lot of them are gonna start ringing a lot of names like Rebel Yell, like Ezra Brooks, like these are all the labels that these are all the names that you're probably very well familiar with and probably didn't know much about the the distillery and the people that are behind it. So guilty. I don't know much. But now I do know, because we just did the tour got the family history, and it's like a really cool story. So I'm excited to share that with our audience. Absolutely. And that's a good way to kind of segue into our guest today. So today we have Philip Lux. Philip is the global brand ambassador for Luxor distillery. So Philip, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Kenny. Ryan, thanks for having me on. Absolutely. So

19:00 Before we kind of get into this and start talking about the whiskey in the tour and the grounds and all that sort of stuff again, let's kind of talk about you know, your history your your upbringing, because because you're you're young strapping lad, your last name is luck. So obviously you have something to do around here. Yeah.

19:16 So, you know, the and you kind of talked about like, your family's been in this business? What 40 years now something like a almost 60 years, almost 60 years. Wow. So talk about your first run in with bourbon. My first run with bourbon honestly, was was pretty recent, over the past two to three years when we decided to build this and that so your mom and dad and like

19:41 and now I mean, it's really was you know, as personally my my first run with bourbon was was recent, but as a company, we've been in the bourbon industry for over 40 years doing some private label stuff with my grandfather back when you know, he was still still around. And David Sherman, who originally started the business with my grandfather, Paul

20:00 Whenever you know it's doing that private label bourbon just for four different grocery stores or, or convenience stores, stuff like that around the country. And then we we bought our first bourbon. And I believe 93 with Ezra Brooks from from Glenmore distillers, who's now owned by Sam's rack and has just kind of grown from there. And, you know, that was a little over 20 years ago now and we've grown. We've had award winning brands and grown our brands over the past 20 years and into into big, big names that allowed us to now break off from sourcing and start our own distillery and have everything distilled in house verse, you know, sourcing our bourbon from somebody else. Okay, so let's get back to the original question. What was your first my first run with bourbon was was probably three years ago. In you know, Colorado when I was when I was living there and decided I wanted to get away from kind of the, the vaca vaca scene so I started to drink some different stuff and my mom actually came

21:00 To me and in said that'd be a really good opportunity for, you know, to maybe have an idea of getting into the industry as we're getting ready to build this so I jumped kind of head over heels into the bourbon industry and

21:13 kind of ran with it from there went to moonshine University in Louisville and where I really got introduced to bourbon and whiskey and that kind of helped me in golf myself in the industry and in golf myself and what bourbon really is, especially here in Kentucky in Louisville, where it's you know, American spirit and in most popular spirits, so, huh, so she kind of was like the catalyst you didn't really you were like, that's your thing. I'm gonna do my own thing. Yeah, I'd never even really wanted to be in the industry. My I was always not necessarily pressured. My dad always said Do whatever you want to do. Yeah, he was never pressuring me at all. It was always his friends are my friends asking when when are you going to get in the industry? When are you going to do this? do that so because I'm sure your friends are like, hey, yeah,

21:58 I mean, I would take boxes of boosts.

22:00 to college with me, whether it be vaca Yeah, you'd be Ron knock that probably we just got in the house, we used to own Admiral Nelson. So that was a pretty cool product for us. And that was a fun product in college. And everybody enjoyed that. But, you know, on the bourbon side, I really didn't know much about it until I started taking classes and really engulfing myself in it with Stephen thief, like I said, as well, with moonshine you and you know, my mom is said, you know, take a chance this is something that's different, it's something that's new, it's gonna be something that you can help grow and you can be a part of, I was working in a ski shop in Colorado two years out of school, and you know, love in life, but it's hard to work in a ski shop for the rest of your life. Right? Well, I guess I work in a ski town so I need to find something a little different. And I you know, I've I've used my dad in different people in the company, and then the industry is kind of stepping, you know, stuffing box to help me work into it and learn more about it and I feel

23:00 That I've, I'm learning, you know, every day, whether it be with our products or the distillation process or the supplier versus distributor side. And, you know, with my job, it really allows me to learn, you know, frequently and, and continue learning and traveling and seeing different how bourbon and whiskey is viewed in California versus in Kentucky versus in New York. You know, I like to call you know, the bourbon trail like the Napa Valley of the Midwest now because you guys probably see it firsthand as well where everybody's flocking here now for that burden. Even the peacocks even though

23:39 they're they're always here and they're, you know, they love it here. So kind of talk about what you do see the difference in in bourbon, whether it's the community or culture as you're doing these travels, you know, just across the US like what is what's something that kind of stands out to you? You know, I think something that really stands out is the, the recognition of the bigger

24:01 You know, you go to California where, and I went up to Seattle for Seattle cocktail week and people had never heard of Lexapro but they had heard of, you know, they heard of heaven, hell and Maker's Mark and Jim Beam. And, you know, being, for me my passion and what I really strive to grow not only our brands, but our brands are part of a bigger name now of Lux. Lux row. So I think you know, to answer your question, Kenny, the The major difference that I see is how quickly a brand like Lux row catches on in Kentucky, because, you know, we're a year and seven months out from, you know, putting juice in our first barrel. And people recognize those brands like you know, they, they have, you know, throughout time and they recognize Lexapro now, as in you go to San Francisco whiskey Fest, those are all whiskey, you know, enthusiasts, so they're gonna, you know, they're they've probably been following those brands, but they're not super familiar with it. Maybe they've seen that Lux ro logo somewhere and now they're gonna be you know,

25:00 Gonna be there and they can, you know, learn more about it on a first hand basis or up in New York, I was up there and personally introduce David Nicholson reserve into the New York in the Boston Market in front of all the distributors so just different brands that aren't necessarily recognized throughout the country or are and don't have a lot of backing to them that need help you know, growing and with the distillery it's allowed us to help grow those brands in a different way where we can one bring customers here and you know, they can see that product we have people from all over the country if not the globe coming here. When they come to see heaven Hillary Jim Beam or Maker's Mark or limestone branch down in Lebanon, they drive right past us now. So we're in a very unique spot here that

25:50 it allows us to help grow. Yeah, I mean, go ahead, right. Oh, no, good. All right. Well, I'll keep going. I mean, cuz i was i was talking about like his Yeah, I mean, we talked about

26:00 Kind of beginning to show that you know, the rebel gal David Nicholson blood oath like Ezra books like these are these are pretty iconic names in in whiskey like they've been around for a long time but people didn't really know a lot of the background. And so Lux ro is also is it underneath the umbrella or an extension of Lux co as well? Can you kind of talk about the differences what you have there? Yeah, absolutely. So Lux CO is I like to call it our parent brand. But Lux Lux row is actually technically a supplier of Lux Co. You know, we own it as a family. My dad, you know, is the chairman CEO still of Lux row, but we act as a supplier for Lux, COEs Bourbons. But we're also you know, owned and operated family operated out of St. Louis with my father. myself my brother my mom. My brother's not in the industry. he's a he's an aerospace engineer, but he's the winner. Yes, James. He's a one a little bit of a different path than myself But no, to each its own. Yeah.

27:00 I found you know, a niche here but yeah, I mean Lux CO is is a worldwide supplier of spirits. We own a multitude of about 100 different brands everclear probably being the biggest my grandpa Paul purchase that, you know, way back in the day that was his first popular guy in college. And to this day I'm proud to admit I've actually never drink and everclear Yeah, it really is brutal. Yeah, never drink and it was like hooch or something.

27:28 So it's, it's, you know, everclear is you know, the biggest one but then we've got you know, provoq arrow cordials we own three different two kilos, whereas tequila, which is our mixto which you can find in you know, like a Texas Roadhouse Well, it's you well Margarita is usually whereas tequila, we have LA or tequila, which is our ultra premium as well as exotic tequila. All based out of Mexico. But it all you know, we're the supplier for that. So we we've been partners with the Gonzales family over there for

28:00 3040 years my grandfather worked with Rodolfo Gonzales his father so so very family oriented. And then over on locks row even you obviously can't get to locks row if you don't have locks.

28:11 And so we've over the past 20 years we've purchased all of our bourbon brands as your Brooks been the first and 93 from Glenmore distillers. And then we had Rebel Yell in 99. We purchased from Stetson Weller, David Nicholson is one of my favorite brands to talk about because it started originally started in St. Louis, Missouri, and we can go into that story. You got a little bit of a soft spot for St. Louis don't I do I do St. Louis born and raised my hometown. Got to give a shout out to our blue Stanley Cup champions. But you know, all of our brands have a very unique backstory to them very unique roots. That's why here at Lux row we are I guess motto is real roots real family real products. We have the roots not only with the products, but the real roots here in Bardstown with the Ballard

29:00 farm. They've lived there and and Ryan you know this but

29:05 big john Ballard lived there for 40 years raised his kids there, his grandkids there. I mean, this was their family farm. So we have the real roots with the products as well as with the farm. We've got the real family with myself, my dad, my mom being the creative director. So she worked her butt off, you know, getting this place up the top notch, you know, within two years, and then we've got the real products and the drinkability obviously speaks for themselves when you when you let them touch your lips, but each one has different wards. As what to say cuz the ezard Brooks barrel proof kind of went off gangbusters this year. Yeah, we're going crazy. It was crazy. Yeah. So we'll right when we introduced it wherever we reintroduced it, Fred.

29:45 Fred MiniK, who's never heard it never had that. But he called it he called it his,

29:52 his 2018 everyday sipping whiskey of the year, which absolutely blew it off the rails, all the allocations from across the country. We're going to

30:00 Wire. And so people you know we're in love with it and then somehow some way it one in San Francisco 2019 straight bourbon of the year 2018 straight straight whiskey of the year, which was absolutely huge for us once again. But then David Nicholson reserve back to back 2000 back to back double Gold's in San Francisco and in 2017 2018 as well as straight bourbon of the year 2017 Rebel Yell 10 year old single barrel was top 20 whiskies of the world it was number 12 there were only three American whiskeys on that. So we were really really fortunate to you know to have that one it's also very delicious product as well as won some some gold medals. So each one you know that real roots, real family real products, you know really comes into play with Lux row as well as Lux CO and St. Louis. But you know, very family oriented but Lux Lux row is what we that's what we strive here. So he says your dad ever told you about how you had the foresight to like start buying up these brands like before the you know, the big boom

31:00 Like, has he ever talked about that? Like, why did he get why did bourbon interesting, I guess from in the early 90s? When no one cared? Yeah, it's a great question and I'll need to, to pick his brain about that. Because, you know, I should definitely know that I know that. He's always looking to acquire and sell different brands, whether it be bourbon or, or rum or vodka, or tequila, stuff like that. But,

31:24 you know, he's, he sees an opportunity, and he'll jump on it. I mean, David Nicholson, he literally bought that product from the Van Winkle family. He was on the phone with Julian Van Winkle, which is pretty cool story, especially. I mean, if you guys want I mean, I can go into you know how David Nicholson 1843 came about, do it. Let's hear it. But so my favorite This is my favorite story to tell about our Bourbons because it hits home for me, it goes back to 1843. I've looked it up on Google, and actually found it. Actually, it actually found David Nicholson's grocery store that I'm about to talk about in St. Louis. Okay. He was a great

32:00 grocery store owner back in 1843 in St. Louis, Missouri. So he made that four year old weeded bourbon in his basement of his grocery store 50 years later as well, it's like you can do that 50 years later in 1893, some guy named Pappy Van Winkle. Never heard of them might know something about we did bourbon. I'm not sure. What's that? Yeah, exactly. He purchased that product continued that Nashville and then in 2000, my father, Don purchased that product from from Julian Van Winkle. So which means we've now brought that full circle from 1843. Back to St. Louis, where it originally started, which is a really cool story to tell. It's 100% true, and it it puts that family you know, atmosphere that family feel back in that product that has been there throughout time but might not have been recognized. And then we introduce David Nicholson reserve that won a bunch of awards. It's not it's a seven year ride bourbon at 100 proof so they they interact with each other very well.

33:00 They're different taste profiles, one's very creamy, one's still a little bit sweeter because of that we did bourbon.

33:06 So that you know, that's David Nicholson is a really cool story with with roots dating back to 1843, but also roots a back to the Van Winkle family. So where was blood oath made? Not a grocery store, right? How not to talk about that, and how it got its name and how it made it wait made its way to your portfolio. So blood oath was a product that were our head distillers very, very fond of john rappy. We wanted something that he could put his name to, and that it could be his in that he could continue to create, you know, delicious blends, you know, year after year. So, you know, john goes to different places and different distilleries and finds very unique barrels that he can blend together. And what we wanted was three extra age Bourbons blended together with a unique bourbon that's finished in something different. So packed, one was

34:00 three extra age Bourbons blended together not finishing anything unique barrel after that and pack to three extra age Bourbons, one of which was finished in a pork barrel from Meyers winery in Cincinnati.

34:12 also failed and operated with my cousin Paul Lux who owns Meyers winery. Pack three was finishing a Cabernet 70 on barrel for an extra six months. JOHN actually went out to Napa Valley and pick those barrels from the the smiley or the head wine guy you know at Swanson vineyards Napa Valley pack for was finished in Rebel Yell 10 year old toasted oak single barrel. So that was a 10 year old, a 12 year old and a nine year old and that nine year old was finished for an extra six months. So you got very dark chocolate notes. So these are all things that you know, john, personally, you know, puts that bourbon in those barrels and tastes them month over month to make sure that they're at that flavor profile that he wants. So when I tasted that blood oath, or that that nine year coming out of

35:00 Those old 10 year old toasted oak barrels It was very dark chocolate tasted not like chocolate milk, but kind of cocoa almost. It had a very, you know, chocolatey taste to it and then pack five you know, everybody's looking for that extra aged, super high proof, very unique Bourbons these days, so pack five, it's a,

35:21 an eight year old 12 year old and a 13 year old and that the eight year old rize actually finished for an extra six months and Caribbean rum cast. So that's what we're drinking right now. Nice. That Caribbean rum casks you get

35:33 you get very sweet and sweet. Yeah, Ryan signs empty, sweet sugary notes on the front end. You get like dark fruit banana, you get that okayness coming through from that extra age that you know 13 and 12 year old coming through there. So blood oath is something that

35:51 you know, the but the blood of the tests is that you know, nobody knows where he finds his barrels or his bourbon but you know, he puts together

36:00 product that is very unique and is for the the bourbon enthusiast. And if you'd like I can read you know what the actual blood oath label says on there. But it'll, it'll, it gives the whole story but if you think about it, you prick your finger with a buddy, and you make a blood oath, you know, you don't tell, you know, tell those things. Only you guys know where it's from, and tell you get on the podcast and

36:23 reveal everything. It's all we do. We sit here and poke and prod until you run out mash bills and ages and where your source your barrels, we save our blood.

36:32 So that's cool. I mean, that's, I think that's a side of, of, at least that particular brand that most people don't know about. You know, for I mean, I can remember when I think blood was packed, one came out, and there was just kind of this, like, what is this? Where do they come from? It's in a box like, what, what is this stuff? And so now we kind of have a little bit more of the information and really kind of what goes into it now. Now I know that each pact is uniquely different as well. It's not so

37:00 supposed to be this

37:02 similar creation over and over and over again? Yeah, the main similarity and that's only three barrels yet another thing to three three extra age Bourbons is the main submit similarity, excuse me, and, you know, each year, different box different label different flavor profile completely. And it's something that that john can really get behind and put, you know, a lot of his passion to it as well, other than, you know, all the other Bourbons, but he loves the blood oath, and it's growing in popularity, you know, year over year, we've continually made more of it. It's still allocated.

37:36 But I believe we made

37:39 I think it's 5003 in cases for this one, so about 15,000 bottles, maybe a little bit more might be vitamin 17,000 bottles, but it's allocated bottles for three barrels. You know how you're doing that?

37:51 Well, it's not three barrels total. Oh, yeah. Okay.

37:55 I thought it would be different. I literally thought it was like three barrels. No, no, so like, math as well.

38:00 All right, we'll take about we'll take about 40.

38:03 About 40 barrels. So like with the pack for we had 40 to 10 year old barrels that we sent back to the cooperage, they took them apart, scrape the number three char off, put them back together, suck a flaming hot rod in the middle for about an hour, put a very deep toast on them, put it back together and send it back to us. And then we aged that nine year old or finished that nine year old for an extra six months in those barrels. So it wasn't all three Bourbons finishing those barrels, it was only that one. So then john will blend them together in whatever way he finds, you know, best so that he gets those flavor profiles that he's looking for. So it's more than just it's three, three types of barrels. But it's not three barrels total. Gotcha. And so it was was Rebel Yell acquired at the same time as David Nicholson. About a year before but right around the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, that already has a pretty historic past, you know, being something that was at Stillwell or stuff like that, you know, it's it's good to kind of get the background of

39:00 What these are and I'm assuming this is this is the the line that you have right now in your Bourbons. Yeah Miss Rebel Yell at her Brooke split oath and David Nicholson, the Rebel Yell we just reintroduce, or we just new label on it, which you know pops much better than the old one, you can really read the lettering. So we've reintroduced that to the, to the market.

39:22 You know, we're coming out with new bottles and new new products eventually, as you know, as we get going.

39:32 There'll be there'll be something along the lines of you know, a regular or just like a distillery product from Lux row.

39:40 So definitely look look forward to seeing that at some point.

39:45 But yeah, this is this is our line. These four products are two mash bills. I ride Nashville and our we did Nashville, we can get to all of our products from those. Hmm. And so I guess let's talk a little bit about the distillery here because

40:00 Cuz we mentioned when we were walking and talking, breaking ground around 2016, which was, you know, for us, I remember doing the podcast and we're like, oh, what's this place that's getting ready to start and we didn't really, really think anything of it now, a couple years later, we're here finally doing a podcast. Yeah. And then you realize they make you know, they have Rebel Yell and all those brands, all the big brands, yeah, I'd never heard of before. And so kind of talk about the the timeline of breaking ground. When you first started distilling, getting everything online, first barrel, everything like that. Yes. So see, we broke ground, January 2016.

40:39 The ballers lived in that house pretty much two weeks until we broke ground on the property. So it was still their family farm pretty much up until then, I mean, we obviously haven't get out.

40:50 So yeah, we broke ground, January 2016. We're on about a two year you know, we wanted it to be you know, up and running in two years. So

41:00 January 2018, I think January 10. We filled our first barrel, January 5, we turned the steel on.

41:06 And then April 11, we opened up to the public. So that was our grand opening. And that was a huge day not only for our family, but for our company. It was the largest investment that we've ever made for our company. But it was really big in nursery, more morale, but just for the whole team, I mean, my dad shut down our whole company in St. Louis and bust about 350 of his employees out here so that they could stand out on this front lawn while we had bagpipers walking, you know, taking my mom and my dad and David Bratcher, the president of our company down to the flagpole to, you know, to raise that Lux row flag for the first day. So you got people that, you know, have worked have driven a forklift in a warehouse in St. Louis for 30 years, with a smile on their face coming to work every day for my dad and my grandfather. That got to come out here and see firsthand where they're, you know where that Rebel Yell or that Ezra Brooks is that they're pushing every single

42:00 All day unloading trucks they got to see firsthand where that's made with with their co workers. And it really spoke volumes you know who our family is and what we're all about and just to have everybody out here is just a really cool experience. You know, April 11 2018 we'll remember that day is you know, the day that you know we we cut the ribbon on this place and open it up to the world and that really is what you know what what we did you know, not only here in Bardstown but i mean i'm going to London next week to you know, work in the market with our with Ezra Brooks and rebel yo with our, our international reps over there. So

42:37 to see a grow over the past, whatever it is year and a little over a year and a half now from where it was to where it is now and then just envisioning where it can go, you know, over the next two 510 years and past that is really special and just to see, you know, everybody in the company, really get behind

43:00 Everybody in you know, in our bourbon

43:03 section of Lux co get behind it and all the events that we're doing, we're now going to be at at every whiskey fest around the country. So Chicago, San Francisco, New York.

43:16 I'm missing a couple nights, but there's no whiskey fest whiskey in the winter in St. Louis. We'll have a booth there. So you know, the everybody's really getting behind it, especially here in Bardstown. I mean, you got to tell better mommies, they've got our products and they love it and they'll they'll sell it or

43:34 you gotta love Manny's Gotta love nannies you can't go wrong with the country cooking there. Yeah, we had one actually. We had a group that came here. I was like a VIP tour or something. And they went to mommies for breakfast. And they were just like, That was crazy. The pancakes are huge. And I couldn't even like we're bloated. Yeah. secondaries. Yeah.

43:54 So talk about why did you all decided to do the distiller here and not kind of do a footprint

44:00 You know in St. Louis,

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44:52 Why did you all decided to do the distiller here and not kind of do a footprint you know in St. Louis, you know you got a bunch of breweries here

45:00 They're, you know, a nice big city like, you know, in your bottling they're still currently why not do it there and instead of kind of putting your foots down here or not your foot putting making your stamp here in Bardstown? Yeah, definitely, I mean, I think I think that you know Bardstown is the heart of bourbon country. And we found that I think we wanted to be around everybody else. I think it definitely helps us being here. Versus you know, being in St. Louis. We have our other our plant in St. Louis, where everything else is made. But you know, this is bourbon country and we wanted to be by by the other distilleries, and we wanted to be right in the heart of it. Like I said earlier, you know, the, the Napa Valley of the, you know, of the Midwest is that bourbon trail right now, and yes, people are going through St. Louis to you, but they're gonna go there and see beer when they're coming through Kentucky. They're coming for bourbon and we needed somewhere that could be you know, 100% about our Bourbons that we could, you know, really get behind and, and we

46:00 been, you know, we've been sourcing for 20 years so we've been driving our barrels from Kentucky back to St. Louis for 20 years and it's been working for us why change anything now? Why not you know break ground in the heart of bourbon country where we have that limestone filtered water. I mean, we just still we cook we ferment with Bardstown city water, this limestone filter we don't do anything with you know, with it when we're putting in the cooks or anything like that. Well, you know, we'll reverse osmosis, purify it when we're, you know, we're proofing down everything, but to be here in Bardstown in the heart of it is what it's all about, and that's where the most traffic is. That's where people want to want to come to see that bourbon, and also, in Kentucky in it's the same weather as Missouri. You just get it about a day later, but you get all four seasons. You get all four seasons, very hot summers, very cold winters. So that aging process is really unique here in Kentucky,

46:54 and is probably the best agent process for bourbon.

46:58 So I mean

47:00 We're right in the home in Lebanon, Kentucky is not far away so independence Dave it's easy to get barrels from them. Everything very centrally located here in Kentucky. selfishly I like being in Kentucky because it's close enough to St. Louis Right. You can drive back for a few hours and one hour drive. Yeah, it's not bad at all. But I think this is where the majority of people know what they're talking about here in Kentucky for bourbon. And you know, when I got started I in the industry I it was a little challenging for me because I was kind of just cold calling on different bars and restaurants and stuff like that and the saturation of bourbon in in Kentucky. Louisville is just insane. I mean, you go into any bar and there's more than 100 Bourbons on there. So

47:48 to be able to get our name behind something that can compete directly with those big brands. With Lux ro but also you know, Rebel Yell is growing as her Brooks is growing. David Nicholson is growing. David Nicholson reserved

48:00 The biggest you know our top skew coming out of the distillery here you know it's it definitely speaks to the location that we're in. I guess I forgot to question about this so what's there between this the regular David Nicholson and the reserve the 1843 is a four year old we did at 100 proof so for us we did bourbon in the reserves a seven year old ride burn out 100 proof There we go. Yeah, so once we add ones ride, Alright, so now our listeners know exactly what you're looking at when you're perusing your store shelves.

48:29 So I guess, you know, as we kind of keep talking about the the distillery here and everything like that, what's the I mean, it's a massive still so kind of talk about the relationship you have with Vendome and and the size of it and kind of like how much product you're pumping out to. Definitely so yeah, we got are still 43 feet tall. 36 inches in diameter handmade custom copper still from Vendome in Louisville. So family operated with the Sherman family.

48:54 They are the best when it comes to still making this obviously, other stills hillbillies.

49:00 Try it instills. I would think Vendome is up there with, you know, the best in the industry.

49:07 But yeah, so Ours is a 43 foot column still, which then feeds the low wine into our doubler, which is also made by Vendome. I'm not 100% sure the capacity of the doubler. But once it gets into that double, there's a slide on that one.

49:23 pure, pure alcohol in there, no more grains or anything. And we're going to pump out about a million million gallons a year, which is about 70 barrels a day with the capacity to do about what we do about 20,000 barrels a year and we have the capacity to do about 50,000 barrels a year. If we add a couple fermenters

49:42 down the road when when we need that to production to jump up. Is that based off like what you're kind of seeing sales in the marketplace, either current brands or more is that kind of like we see this is the growth of what this company is going to be. Yeah, a little four to five years. Obviously, there's projections and I don't see those projects.

50:00 firsthand, but I think you know, we deplete about 20,000 barrels a year. So maybe a little bit less. But as as those projections and stuff as we get rid of some other barrels that we have at other distilleries will, you know, by the time those are finished, we'll be ready to dump our first four year old barrel here and we can just kind of jump right into it same seamlessly and that's what was kind of unique about us building building here as well is that you know, we've been in the bourbon industry owning our own Bourbons for over 20 years and and we've been doing it you know, we've we've had it it working very well and very good relationships and to have those those products. We're doing the same thing that those other distilleries had been doing for us, except now everything's in house and we can just, we were able to have have barrels aging,

50:56 continue producing those products and having them in the market. Why

51:00 We're building our distillery. So whereas you know, a smaller craft distillery that's just popping up out of the ground, they're either going to source their product off the start, or they have to wait, you know, a year or two years for their first product to come off the still or to be dumped out of the barrel for us, we could just jump right into it.

51:18 And they're not too much of a leeway. And in you know, getting that still turned on pumping out juice and just jumping right back into that, that process of putting bourbon in, you know, on the shelf. Yeah, I guess that that also kind of leads into another question is when you start thinking about when the day does come when your barrels are ready, until you said like 20 2022 2022 is kind of like the date that you all are aiming at. Is there ever any any worry because, you know, if you're, if you're sourcing and you're buying and you've been buying at a consistent product, and you kind of know exactly like what it's going to be at that age, you have a little high confidence and then now you're kind of like Okay, now we're working with our equipment.

52:00 Is there any sort of thoughts or worries to say like, God, I really hope it's gonna be ready in four years. Personally, I don't have any worry. But people in the industry I'm sure will have worry.

52:12 For I don't have any worry for a couple reasons. One, I've tasted our year juice that came out of our first make barrels. And it's absolutely delicious at 125 proof very calmly, very dark for a year, which gave me a lot of confidence into what we're going to be taking out of those barrels, you know, three years down the road, but also when when we're doing the exact same thing that those other distilleries you know, had been doing for us for 20 years, our head distiller was, was you know, we were deciding what that Nashville was going to be stuff like that. But when we pull our barrels, you know, especially for our Rebel Yell, and our Ezra Brooks, as well as some for the David Nicholson, but mostly the rebel Jonas for Brooks, we're going to pull in a cross sectional method from the Rick house, so we're not going to rotate any of our barrels so when we pull those barrels, we're going to pulled 200 barrels, maybe 250 barrels at a time and blow

53:00 those all together to get to that consistent, you know, flavor or proof that we've had for the past 20 years that's been, you know, award winning or that we've been putting on the shelves year in and year out. So, and that's all tested by our head distiller and some people back in St. Louis to making sure those flavors are there. But me personally, I don't really have anywhere because we have the best in business, you know, doing what, what they do here, but I'm sure that's going to be a thought of some people once we get our first product, you know, that we actually distilled here, you know, into the market. Y'all trying to kind of replicate the existing profiles you have now with the existing brands is that kind of what your match bills are geared towards is kind of replicating the agenda now. It's gonna be the same Nashville, we're using the same corn we're using the same wheat or rye, we're using the same yeast, everything like that. We're just doing it in house now. So gotcha. You know, it's, it's hard to I would think that would be the smart way to do it.

53:56 Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard to it's hard to kind of replicated

54:00 offer, you know, a year and seven month old barrel shirt. As we get closer and closer, I'm sure that replication process will become more in depth and taking a couple different barrels and mixing them together and proofing them down to see if we can get to that exact proof

54:17 for that exact flavor profile, which I know we will.

54:22 But yeah, I mean, there's definitely, I'm sure there's definitely some worry or thought into if it's going to be exactly the same. Mm hmm. I mean, I think that's always a always a concern when you're doing this and figuring out Okay, do we do we keep the sourcing do we start blending a little bit, that sort of thing as you start going down that path? Even more?

54:44 And so we kind of went on the tour kind of so we have what 1212 fermenters here 12

54:51 I'm already testing my knowledge here. 12 fermenters a massive still doubler what else am I missing that we kind of solve on our little tour here?

55:00 We talk about think tanks. So you got some proofing tanks, we'll we'll put, we'll put juice in the proofing tank said 140. And we'll prove it down to 120 4.9. For it to be bourbon can't go in 125 or higher. And so we'll talk about the storage capacity we have here too, because we were able to go inside there you have this beautiful wall of barrels, anybody that missed you can always check out Instagram scroll way, way, way back and you can probably find it but there was a an idea that they had of being able to make an impact when you come into a particular warehouse

55:34 to kind of talk about what that is. Yeah, so my dad Don and David Brasher, the president of the company had a really good good really great idea honestly to take out first couple Rick's and and Rick house and just make a big wall of barrels that people could see and, and allow people to really, you know, see what a wreck house looks like see the magnitude of a wreck house.

55:59 You

56:00 See how many barrels are in a wreck house from floor to ceiling instead of just being in a confined claustrophobic area and and leave you know a lasting impression on on people that come to the distillery

56:13 I don't don't quote me on this but I believe it's probably the number one picture people take at our distillery once they get in there the wow factor is definitely ducks. Yeah number two speaker blend them together and make one

56:26 you know the wow factors you know definitely there we have we have in that Rick house will all of them were are built by bucyk construction here in Bardstown also family owned operated. But you know, they were kind of skeptical about it at first until they did some engineering on it and they found a way that it would work. And so we were the first ones to do it. We're one of you know that Rick house is one of a kind in the industry. So they've bucyk is brought other people you know, that are maybe interested in it to kind of look at that, but all of our rec houses aren't like that. So that one holds our first one Rick house, one holds

57:00 19,200 barrels, and then all of our other Rick houses hold about 20,000 barrels. So if my math is right, about an 800 barrel sacrifice about 800 barrel sacrifice and we definitely think that that sacrifice you know paid off an aesthetic purposes.

57:18 I'm hoping that those barrels stay on that wall for a very long time, at least like 10 years. Me personally, but I'm not the one calling the shots when it comes to what barrels are being pulled. But, you know, we've got some special barrels on that wall that people can see and hear the story about.

57:36 And you know, those brick houses, that's where the magic really happens. I mean, in my mind the barrels most influential aspect of the bourbon process, see 70% of the flavor or 70% of the flavor 100% of the color. So it'll be interesting to see how a little bit of that extra airflow kind of affects the barrels in a positive or negative way. We hope all positive Yeah.

58:00 Either absolutely, hundred percent. But, you know, it's it's just we tried to be differentiate ourselves from other distilleries in a few different ways through visuals, whether it be the video at the start of the tour, the artwork throughout the tour, or, you know, the Rick house, you know, very, very visually appealing that people you know, it sticks with them when they when they leave here. Yeah, it's one of the first warehouses we've been around to recently that doesn't have like the black fungus several or Yeah, so we don't have that yet. We'll get better. I think it's starting to grow on a couple of the small trees out there. Yeah.

58:40 It's like every tree bars on the black like, like you brazenly like what's wrong with your trees? It's like, I'm worried. It's just the

58:47 tree. It's just the bourbon. It's just the bourbon talking. Yeah. So you know, last thing I want to kind of talk about because I think the brands are a very sort of focus for what you do in all the ambassadors

59:00 centering. I think that's a word that you that you do around the globe, sort of what is what has been like the one thing that people latch on to when you talk to them about their brand or about your brands? Like is there one thing in particular each one of these that they're kind of like, oh, wow, like, I didn't know that, or that's a pretty cool little factoid. I think there's there's a couple things. I think the roots behind each one of our brands is very unique. And people don't realize the roots that you know, each brand has come from, I mean, you mentioned if you mentioned stitz, a Weller to anyone that you know, drinks bourbon, they know that it was a very prestigious distillery back in the day that you know, has amazing juice that we've continued that you know, that process or you mentioned, the Van Winkle family.

59:44 Everybody knows who you are, most people that drink bourbon, know who, you know, the van winkles are so I think that the, the, the roots of each one of our Bourbons is very unique. The flavor profile is very unique, but what I really enjoy about this job

1:00:00 is telling our family story and how we've grown throughout the past 60 years, starting as just a small you know, private label distribution company in modeler all the way up to one of the top suppliers and you know, in the country, if not the world of spirits and to be able to grow that family name into bourbon is very special for for not only myself but for our family as a whole. I mean, I've my mom, and it was absolutely a job to raise me over, you know, 25 years but she put her heart and soul into this distillery for two year process and, you know,

1:00:45 the tasting room the visitor experience that was all her so to see, to be able to tell our family's story and put it behind not only the brands but the whole distillery in general is very special and I think people will actually latch on to it.

1:01:00 at, you know, whiskey fests and stuff like that. Because

1:01:06 no, okay, like you're saying, some people do know the brands, some people don't know the brands and, and if you can give them something to latch on to that reminds them of that brand. I think it's it helps them, you know, one they'll drink it, they'll maybe ask for that over a different product and at the store after, you know, they go from San Francisco whiskey fest drinking all day and night and the next morning, they're like, oh, what was you know, what was that? What was that product from Lux, Rhoda. Still it was that thing I can't remember. And then maybe, maybe they remember it. Or maybe I was just in the liquor store that they go to. And they walk in there. And I was just, I personally had just been talking to the owner and talk to them and explained all of our brands. So they walk in there and they say, Oh, do you have any brands from Lexapro, distillers? Oh yeah, we have Rebel Yell we have as Rob Brooks. We have these great

1:02:00 Are any of those ringing a bell and they can kind of relate to, you know, not just those products whereas in you know, Maker's Mark is its Maker's Mark. Yeah, you know, that's why we didn't want to call this distillery rebel distillery or as your Brooks distillery. We didn't want it to be like a legacy distillery we wanted it to have. We wanted to be able to distill all those products under one roof have four or five, six brands underneath one big brand of locks row. So once once the Lux bourbon coming,

1:02:33 you could probably look forward around bourbon fest time. Yeah, there you go. It's gonna happen. So you guys are in like you said, Lux kosan part. got their hands and everything. Like is there any plans to use this facility to kind of support those brands as well or just not? Focus? Yeah, strictly with egos Not that I've heard of. I mean, definitely not for tequilas, obviously. Go but we've got a distillery out in Mexico.

1:03:00 We've worked with for over 40 years.

1:03:04 You know, people have actually asked me that are you going to use a silver vodka or gin, stuff like that? As of right now it's strictly bourbon focus and whiskey focused.

1:03:14 Not to say that there's not something down the road that need be, we might need to do some grand neutral spirits or something like that. But right now, it's strictly bourbon. Like if you got the equipment. Yeah, why not? Enough? We'll talk about some of the like the kinks or like, troubles with starting a distillery what's kind of been like, because it can't all just be like, easy peasy smooth. rainbows. That's something that's something you'd have to ask Tony or Aaron about, mostly, but I mean, I'm not I'm out here two or three times a week, when I can be when I'm not traveling.

1:03:48 You know, just getting getting everything dialed in. Seems like everything in the whiskey business takes three times as long. Yeah. And we were we were lucky enough that people from other distilleries applied for jobs here. So

1:04:00 There wasn't a huge training process other than just getting used to our facilities, which was awesome. And everybody that works here is is fantastic.

1:04:08 You know, obviously capital is probably one of the biggest, biggest things when coming, you know, coming to building building the property, or building a distillery, finding the land this was the last piece of property we looked at this is my dad, David Bratcher looked at about 10 to 12 different pieces of property. So this was the last one

1:04:29 which definitely worked out the best. I think

1:04:33 it's like distillery hunters. Yeah.

1:04:36 I know. This is

1:04:40 I need three bathrooms. Yeah. I mean, I really tell you the truth I really don't see see a lot of the stuff that's kind of the kinks in it. I will tell you that we are, you know, firsthand exactly what you're going to see going into the barrel is what you're going to get four years down the road. We're not trying to hide anything. We're not

1:05:01 You know, our tours literally you're walking through our facility. And you see the exact fermenters the exact cookers, the exact steel that we use, if a if a cooker is broken, for example, one of the first tours I ever gave, and when I was out here, there was one, one of the employees hanging off the cooker fixing it. I mean, if you're on a tour, you're gonna see that cooker being fixed, maybe we're down a cooker. So we have to, you know, double up on that one cooker now. So you're gonna see exactly what you know what goes into that process should be under warranty. It's only been there a couple years.

1:05:36 What do they call it? Sometimes in the industry or working showroom? Yeah, exactly.

1:05:41 So Philip, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today and and really kind of sharing that family connection. I think you really hit home for a lot of it of really understanding exactly what your family's been doing for all these years now and how they've built these products, how they built these brands and then the connection

1:06:00 But you also have with the other families around here and in Bardstown and other surrounding areas to help build the distillery in itself and really how the next iteration of this and next two years we'll see, you know, when the product start getting dumped in their bottle, then you start seeing that that realization of all the fruits of the labor finally coming together. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of it's very cool because like when you say Lux co or electro, you're like, Alright, some big corporation owns some brands and you know, their money but, you know, meeting you and, and just seeing your pride I guess, in your, you know, in your family's, what they've done, you know, to get to this point, and like, see the family aspect behind it, like, all day long you kind of preach that, you know, this is really important as the family aspect with all the relationships we have with our vendors, with our suppliers, our employees, you know, it's really kind of cool to see that that's what's really behind these products. It's not just Rebel Yell and Ezra Nicholson and blood out, it's the lugs family, you know, it's not just

1:07:00 Some big corporation with bean counters.

1:07:04 There's probably a few bees.

1:07:06 But, uh, it's cool to see the, you know, the families involved, you know, so much so, yeah, I absolutely don't I mean, I really appreciate it and I appreciate you guys, you know, giving me an opportunity to come on the podcast. I love your guys's podcast, and, you know, we just while we show up for free, Barbara, any time right? Yeah, no, but I it's just been a it's been an awesome ride over the past, you know, two, three years for me personally really diving into it and seeing it grow. And my dad's always told me since from a young age, you know, in the in the industry, it's all about relationships. I mean, obviously, life's all about relationships as well, but in the bourbon industry, you know, it's all about relationships. I mean, he he known the Shapiro family for over 40 years, I mean, Max's Dad, you know, age wise and I'm gonna use my hands but, you know, it was Max's dad above my grandfather and then Max was right on

1:08:00 Under my grandfather, and then my dad was under Max and then Max's son Andy is now under him and then I'm under Andy. So, I'm extremely, you know, you know, pleased and honored to be fourth generation coming into the business, whether it be like you're saying with our suppliers, you know, like the young family out in Atlanta with you know, with their distribution company. His kids are now billion that the third billion Jr's kids are now working in the industry. So I get to work hand in hand with another fourth generation. And

1:08:32 you know, it's all about family and, and yeah, it's our products. I think speak to that. The drinkability was if you come to the distillery even our tour guides, we've got a Ballard, Towner Ballard, that actually works at the distillery so you know, his second uncle was was john Ballard, who lived on the property like Alright, we'll say exactly they got a Connor Yeah. someone's life.

1:09:00 I mean, we've got you know, we've got people that are born and raised in Bardstown. One of the excuse me one of the

1:09:08 people that work in the distillery or name is ginger her husband actually hauls our slop so it's like you know, in her mind intermingled family at aspect without even like thinking about it so

1:09:21 it's just it was an honor it's an honor just to be in it and just want to continue to grow our brands grow Rebel Yell, Azur Brooke split up David Nicholson

1:09:30 you know, keep striving the real roots real family real products because that truly is what we have here. If you come to the distillery and and get a tour You know, when you come when you come to the distillery exactly when you come to the distillery either get a tour from myself or one of our dark tour ambassadors, Connor, Kelsey, Annabel Landon there, Casey, they're all fantastic. You know, either born and raised in Louisville or in Bardstown and, you know, they're just here to help share our stories.

1:10:00 Share our Bourbons and, and enjoy some some damn fine bourbon.

1:10:06 Killer sign off.

1:10:08 bourbon. Yeah. So make sure you come you come visit Lux ro take a take a tour, I guarantee you'll be you'll be kind of bright eyed a little bit, you know, it's got a little bit of a newer kind of vibe and angle to it. Yeah. And beautiful piece of land. Absolutely. I mean, it's been like half the podcast talking about

1:10:26 shout out to the valley. So, so make sure you come visit them, but you can also make sure that you're following us bourbon pursuit on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And please support the show by writing us a review, or maybe even financially on Patreon we'd love to we always like to have that be our main support of how we keep this show going and shout out to all our Patreon supporters that do so rank ahead and close this out. Yeah, like any said we love hearing from you. Also, if you have feedback, guests, suggestions, comments, we'd love hearing from you because we this is what we do. It's for

1:11:00 You guys so keep them coming and we'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Angel's Envy Tawny

Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:30:09 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Angel's Envy Tawny. This 10 year old bourbon is 111.6 proof and $250 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

245 - COVID-19 Effect on Bourbon and Blanton’s Hysteria on Bourbon Community Roundtable #42

Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:30:42 GMT

On this episode, we discuss two topics that are top of mind. First, is the Coronavirus and how it's impacting the bourbon industry. Then we take a look at the hype and hysteria that surrounds Blanton's. We dive into the recent news of Blanton's Gold making its way to the US and if we think $120 SRP is a deal you should jump on. You will hear a new voice for a few minutes and that is Aaron Goldfarb. You may have seen his work on various publications around the web. He wasn’t able to stay on due to some technical difficulties, but we hope to have him on again soon.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

Barrel Shortage: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-there-a-bourbon-barrel-shortage-on-the-horizon
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about taxes.
What are distilleries doing for coronavirus?
History of Blanton's.
How did Blanton's become so popular?
Will limiting the purchases of allocated items work?
Why don't distilleries use technology to manage this problem?
Blanton's Gold coming to the US. Is it because of tariffs?
Are they taking away from the European allocation?
How can you make more product with only one warehouse?
Will quality suffer with increased production?
What other companies have a similar strategy to Blanton's?
What do you think of the price point?
Will Straight from the Barrel ever come to the U.S.?
Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com , Brian from sippncorn.com, and Aaron Goldfarb for joining.

0:00 Have you ever thought about a career in the whiskey industry? I'm not talking about being the next master distiller. But if you want a leg up on the competition, you need to take a look at the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. This six course program will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is 100% online, meaning that you can access the classes at anytime, anywhere. So what are you waiting for? all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit.

0:35 So if you think back in the 1980s it was a bleak period for bourbon.

0:39 Thanks, thanks, Ryan.

0:43 Is poppin bottles they don't their shit what's going on around here? I'm listening really. I thought it was a good timing.

1:01 This is Episode 245 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We've got a lot of news to cover. So let's hit it. Cova 19 are the corona virus is hitting everyone extremely hard. Now, I'm not sure why people are stocking up on toilet paper like they don't plan on leaving the bathroom anytime soon. But I'm sure most of us have enough bourbon to get us through this time. At this point, every major distillery has shut down tours. So if you had plans to visit the bourbon trail, please make sure you do your research before coming to see what is and what is not open. likely it's going to be nothing because even at this time, all bars and restaurants in the city of Louisville are admitted to shut down in person patrons. And in more coronavirus news. We've talked about this before about one of the benefits of having a state run liquor is that the product is always sold at SRP. Well, who could have predicted this but Pennsylvania one of those states where all spirits are government sanctioned and controlled have closed

2:00 All liquor stores in the state in definitely on Tuesday this past week. This also includes all online orders. So that means the entire state of Pennsylvania has literally zero access to bourbon. I guess after all this time we call them bourbon bunkers for a reason.

2:17 In a shocking vote, a bill is passed by the House licensing and occupations committee that allows Kentucky residents to get alcohol shipped to their door, but get this directly from the producer and wait for it without going through a distributor or retailer. This is a huge modernization and reform that could lead to a larger domino effect across the nation. Now this bill would require alcohol shipments meet very clearly labeled and an ID check and signature upon delivery. The producer would still have to pay the excise tax on all inbound shipments coming to Kentucky. However, retailers testified in front of the committee to express concerns about how the bill would negatively impact their businesses because people would be able to

3:00 for alcohol from their homes, and have it shipped to their door instead of going to the local retailer. In my head, I'm thinking, Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole point, right? However, that didn't matter. And now this amended House Bill 415 is going to the full house. We're going to keep you updated as this progresses. Is there a barrel shortage on the horizon? Well, Lou Bryson over the Daily Beast wrote an article where he interviews everyone from Cooper's to loggers and Miller's themselves. The loggers fear a shortage of white oak while the Cooper's really don't. Wood scientists see wetter conditions now than they have in previous years. And the increased deer populations actually eating acorns, which means less trees, and at this time, there's no plan to actually manage oak populations so it could lead to more maple and pure white oaks. However, independent Steve company says that they are coming off to rainy years where prices for logs were high, but now they see plenty of oak across 20 different states. Brown Forman cooperage says that they see more white oak now.

4:00 They have in the past 40 years, and the industry is doing better sustainability by harvesting oak at the right time to allow newer growth to form loosens up the pose talking about the coop urges only using about 2% of the hardwood industry. But he reflected upon his time spent with the logger. And he said that there is a lot of oak out there, but it's actually impossible to mill it because there's no Mills around and it's hard to get it out of the forest as well. So bourbon is gonna continue to be produced, but we'll have to see what the future entails. For the barrels themselves. You can read this story over the daily beast with the link in our show notes. Can bourbon be made in US territories like Puerto Rico and Guam? Well, Josh Peters over at the whiskey jug took this question to the TTB regulations division to see if it actually still would be legally called bourbon. Sure enough, they confirmed it that bourbon whiskey can be produced in Puerto Rico and Guam with reference to 27 CFR five dot 11 where the USA is defined

5:00 As the United States, the several states and territories and the District of Columbia, and the term state includes a territory and the District of Columbia, and the term territory means the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. So there you have it.

5:15 Booker's bourbon batch 2020 dash one also known as Granny's batch will be released at 63.2% ABV or 126.4 proof. It is named after the sixth generation master distiller Booker knows mom, Margaret beam note. Although she never worked in the bourbon business herself, she certainly played an important role in keeping the bourbon family tradition alive, carrying the legacy on from the fifth to the sixth generation. She was very close with her oldest son Booker, who was instrumental in getting him his first job at the distillery where he would eventually go to become the master distiller. This bourbon is be released at six years, four months and 21 days in age. It would be available sometime around this month for around $90 for real

6:00 is setting aside six barrels to be chosen for and exclusively sold to the four roses mellow moments members. mellow moments is a special club organized by four roses that allows members of the general public to be a part of special gatherings, tastings. And you can stay up to date on for roses news. Plus get some cool trinkets sent in the mail every once in a while. new members can apply at select times during the year when the window opens, and the window to join when that membership does open is only for a handful of minutes so you better at quick. You can see their website for more details at mellow moments club.com. Now some pursuit series news episodes 22 and 23 are now available on sale box comm so if you're looking to get some killer bourbon shipped to your door during this time, head on over there and get stocked up. Episode 23 I'm super excited about because it's our oldest release ever at 15 years old.

6:57 Now today's show, we talk about two things

7:00 Things that are top of mind. First, it's that Corona virus, we had to talk about it. But we decided to change topics up a little bit because you've been hearing all about it on the news. So we got to kind of break away from it. And what are the bourbon is out there that can be just as argumentative. It's got to be bland. So we take the whole entire episode and talk about it. We take a look at the hype and the hysteria that surrounds it. we dive into the recent news of Blanton's gold making its way to the US and it do we think of $120 SRP, there's a deal that you should be jumping on. You're also going to hear a new voice for a few minutes when we start this. And that's Aaron Goldfarb. Now, you may have seen his work on various publications around the web, but due to some technical difficulties, he wasn't able to stay on for the entire podcast, but we hope to have him on again once in the future. All right, it's show time. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char, and remember, Go wash your hands.

7:58 Hey everyone, Joe here again.

8:00 I know I talk a lot about blending here. But we also have a national single barrel program, ask you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm.

8:12 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char, death and taxes. So those are the two things that we are guaranteed in life to have to do taxes. April 15 comes around and every year I'm like son of beep, beep beep, had a night not remember to put all this together. And every year from a business perspective, I tell myself, I'm going to do a better job of keeping my books. And I never do. I never do I just focus on what I do. And then toward the end of the year, I rush and do all my books and well, I'm a procrastinator, if you will when it comes to the accounting side of my world. I need to get better at it. I will. But you know what, at least I don't have to pay 60 to 80%

9:00 Have taxes on everything that I do. And that, my friends is what Kentucky distillers have to pay about 60% of every bottle of bourbon that you buy, if you tally up all of the 60% of that goes to taxes. What's interesting about this is that Kentucky bourbon gets taxed six to six different times off the still in the barrel in the case in the bottom, and then the consumers pay a sales tax and in Kentucky, they have to pay a wholesale tax as well. So you have all these different taxes that they have to pay, that leads to leads to basically more more and more money that has to go to the government just for them to produce whiskey. Now, here's what's messed really, really messed up is that the distillers don't mind paying the taxes necessarily. They actually look at it as like hey, you know what?

10:00 This is not necessarily a bad thing. All that money a lot of that money gets earmarked to go to roads and schools of Kentucky. So like in Anderson County, you drive through there, and you see the nice roads and schools. Those were basically built by wild turkey and for roses, which puts a lot of money into that government infrastructure. Also Kentucky bourbon, the taxes are specifically earmarked for education. I think a couple years ago, when when things started, you know riling up with the teachers here, it became public that bourbon pumped $30 million into the education system. So I've always said like, if you want to, if you want to improve the Kentucky education system, buy more Kentucky bourbon. In fact, when you buy Kentucky bourbon no matter where you are, you are actually helping the roads, the schools, the children, the teachers, you're helping our entire state. So thank you

11:00 Because we have pretty nice roads out in the rural areas because people buy a lot of bourbon. But here's another fun fact, it wasn't until 2011 that the distillers were even allowed to write off their, the fact that they were paying these taxes, they would have to wait too until they bottled it and put it in the market before they could write off the expense of the the out of alarm tax that they were facing. So American whiskey has all these weird, awkward tax laws, that every time I start complaining about having to do taxes or do my books, I kind of look at myself in the mirror and say, Well, at least I'm not a distiller. So remember that this year, as you're going to put your taxes together, however you do it. At least you're not having to do 60 to 80% on the taxes and you get to write everything off when it's time to write it off. And that's this week's above

12:00 The char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram, until next week, cheers

12:11 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon Kinney and Fred here tonight people's champ isn't able to make it because of Corona virus things that are happening. So we'll go ahead and, you know, we'll send our best wishes to Ryan, he doesn't have a Corona virus. I don't want to make that make that clear. The way I said that probably sounded like really dire. No, he's actually trying to do some things for his for his job and set up daycare because we've got a lot of things happening where schools can be shut down for the next few weeks here in Kentucky. So he's got to make sure that he's taking care of his employees tonight. So we're gonna miss Ryan tonight, but we will go on without him. So before we kind of introduce everybody here, I kind of want to talk to Fred Are you are you Doomsday prepared? You guys got enough bourbon and toilet paper to get you through for the next month? Well, you know,

13:00 Like today was you know, I wasn't supposed to be on today because I'm supposed to be in San Francisco for the competition but last minute

13:08 you know we had a scare ourselves and my wife she's the on the committee for like getting the Louisville VA hospital prepared for the coronavirus. So we've been getting prepared I think for the last three months in fact, we we thought there's a tornado coming. Yeah, there might be a tornado coming. So we had a little tornado drill with a family. We all went down to the basement and I was really proud. We brought chips and toilet paper and you know, the baby had something to play with. So we got this. You Baby could play with toilet paper too. Well, he went he went down there and he went straight for the bourbon. I'm like, this is my kid.

13:48 It's in the DNA. Yeah. Alright, so let's go ahead. Let's go around the horn real quick. And but first before we hit some of our regulars, I want to introduce somebody that's new to the podcast and we have a special

14:00 And tonight so Aaron Goldfarb, who you will have probably seen from a lot of articles out there online. So Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me even though I don't know how to use a computer apparently so

14:14 it's okay. Well let it slide this time. We'll we'll do some tech support next time when you do calling a pinch hitter here. Absolutely. So just kind of give everybody a quick recap or kind of summary of like, who you are, where you write and everything like that. Yeah, I'm a, you know, accidentally fell into becoming a blues writer. I write a lot of whiskey articles, but I write cocktail articles, beer articles and food articles for places like Esquire punch, fine pair whiskey advocate, bourbon, plus my favorite place to write.

14:48 I've written a few books to hacking whiskey, most notably for your audience. Gather around cocktails was my most recent book and

14:57 just learned that my kid has been

15:00 next two weeks off school. So I think this is the end of my writing career for a while, at least.

15:05 We're all trying to set up some sort of daycares at home or, I don't know, maybe we should just like go out and like, buy the like 5000 piece puzzles off of Amazon and be like, here you go. This is your next two weeks. Exactly.

15:18 Alright, so, Blake, how you doing tonight? Doing well? Yeah, always good to be back. Just straight into my intro. I feel like we're kind of changing things up. So, you know, do I give the regular Hey, I'm Blake from bourbon or do I just talk about coronavirus or, I mean, you can talk about what's happened in your area. I mean, it's ya know, our craziness happening. No, it's well, I had the flu last week. So I feel like I was out and wasn't the corona virus was just the flu. So we're not we're not born. Yeah, yeah, I got tested. I got tested. I tested positive for the flu. So I decided, I guess I didn't test negative for Corona. But there's been no cases in Florida that I'm aware of. But no, it's just it's crazy. I mean,

16:00 The TPC, that's a huge thing in this area. And so they actually announced today that they're suspending all all fans from the tournament. And you know, this golf tournament will bring in over 100,000 people to come and watch it. So it was pretty disappointing. You know, I was supposed to be

16:21 I was supposed to be going out to a tournament with my son tomorrow. So that's a little disappointing. And it's spring break for us. And as you can see, my daughter's like in the background. So they're talking about extending spring break here as well.

16:39 But yeah, yeah, this should be interesting. I don't know. I'm, I'm one who, I just think you've got like a 1% chance of actually hitting and being devastated. So I'm like, I'll just be unprepared and 99% of the time, I'd be correct. So it's just that 1% gets me But no, so

17:00 lost interest for the longest episode we're about to get into.

17:04 You're right on point there. So So Jordan, what's happening? You're part of the world. Well, the Quran hasn't been declared so Western Eastern pa right. There's a bunch of cases nothing in Pittsburgh. So Pittsburgh's I wouldn't say naive, but like right around today was the first time a little bit of unease and unsettledness kind of kicked in. Right? And now that the NHL canceled the penguins, right, people are super upset. But I'm sure we'll be seeing cases pop up super soon. I don't really even know if they're testing or if they have test kits here in Pittsburgh yet so I'm sure there's cases that we don't know about. So I don't know. Thankfully, it's a state run liquor system. So there's tons of tons of bottles still on the shelves. I think people want to buy that one. But it's there slowly. And Brian in our part of the world Yeah, you're part of the world. Thanks for having me again, Brian with sipping corn Find me a bourbon justice calm. And I my only effect so far is tonight. Instead of doing this, I was going to be

18:00 Drinking an Evan Williams 23 year old old fish Gen 15 in the in the 101 12 year Evan Williams with a client and client had travel restrictions and wasn't supposed to go anywhere and so got my thing cancelled so now it's personal because it kept me from ever. But other than that, it's it's hasn't really affected me. I've got my daughter home from Dayton. They kick them out early. They won't be going back

18:28 to just I've got my bourbon Splott I'll be alright. And at one point for Aaron Aaron, I have to tell you this before I forget I tried to do from hacking whiskey the the bacon infused bourbon. It was probably the biggest flop that I have ever created in my life. I will need to talk offline. I need to know the secret because theoretically, everything about that I should just love and I ruined both urban and bacon doing. That's funny. I always tell people it sounds harder to do.

19:00 Fat washing that it is and it's almost impossible to screw up. But I guess

19:06 I've actually had a very similar experience, Brian, so I have a few minutes. You don't you want to slowly render the bacon made the mistake of like, crispy and I think just the brightness came through so that's what I yeah, yeah. Can't get black. Yeah, absolutely no Okay, good bacon pursuit come and say,

19:29 Hey, I'd go for I'd listen to that it sounds delicious peppercorn all over. So Fred, you've been kind of close to this, because I know at least with the corona stuff, you've been actually reaching out for distilleries kind of give us the latest on what's been happening with what the Steelers are doing for preparing for this? Well, I mean, you ask them personally, a lot of them will say it's all bullshit. And then when it comes to like a corporate message, they'll come out and say,

19:56 well, we're closing visitations starting

20:00 Monday so beam has closed visitations for you know Maker's Mark and the other properties. Starting on Monday,

20:11 brown Forman announced the closures of their Kentucky facilities for visitations on Sunday. And jack daniels on Monday. New rep has made similar announcements I have not heard yet back from heaven Hill. I've reached out to them a couple times. I've not heard back from them yet. Interestingly, places like the smaller distillers seem to be the ones that are kind of like, you know what, we're still doing tours like NB Rolen

20:40 in Western Kentucky was very proud to say that, you know what, we're still doing this. And, you know, so a lot of them have these kinds of plans in place, or for the visitor side, and they're all continuing production. I think production is like I think that's one of the

21:00 The hardest questions answers like what if one of the workers gets test test positive? what's what's the protocol? They're like? I mean, I really don't know what the manufacturing protocol is for when you have a pandemic and someone tests positive for something that gets out into the market. You know, do you have a recall? I mean,

21:19 I mean, those are the kinds of questions that they have to be taking. But at the same time, the Kentucky distillers association is meeting with the governor's office who has been meeting with the vice president. So I mean, we're like three degrees away from, you know, the highest office in the land here, when it comes to what can affect the Kentucky distilleries. So I'm not a I'm not an expert. And I'm not going to claim to be but from what I understand is that this is all basically through respiratory and oral is kind of how it gets transferred really easily. So unless people were like spitting in the mash tubs, I'm not too sure exactly. Even that it's probably because he's in a hallway. Yeah, and so I'm not too sure. Honestly, if even if

22:00 worker does, you know, come in and it actually is affected. I think the only thing that it might actually affect is just the production. Probably just send everybody home do shut down production for X amount of days, come back, do a deep clean, you know, go back, go back to work. Yeah, but there is this whole thing where you have to

22:19 the government's issue, like, where people had it, what would what they touched where they went, you know, I was, you know, I was somewhere and got it in and someone was there the day after me and I got an email about it. And, you know, that was kind of one of the personal scare for me, but, you know, I don't know, like, if somebody works in a factory, you know, does the government then require the that factory to issue a statement to its consumers, and I just don't know it. There's not really a precedent for any of this.

22:54 It's very, very scary. And I think it's more so right as much as they might want to keep many

23:00 fracturing right there just one part of the manufacturing puzzle. So if a farmer who distills the grains and drops them off, right not to sales, I'm sorry for the farmer harvests the grains and drops them off for the trucking company, he drops them off, or they can't drop them off because they have the colonel virus. Got any random ash, you're not doing much, right? Same with barrel, stuff like that. So I think it goes the whole or friends point, maybe you don't have to notify consumers, but then you got to notify your whole manufacturing chain, right. And maybe folks then don't want to drop off supplies because they're afraid that they're going to catch it for their employees. So I think it's just not as simple as you know, the virus doesn't survive much longer. You know, once it's out of somebody's system in the air wasn't just something for more than a few hours. So consumers should be safe, but it's more How does it impact everyone they interact with up and down the whole supply chain? Yeah, I think probably the biggest issue that's really is facing right now is the tourism aspect, which has been really it's been what the industry has been hanging his hat on, you know, with the with the rise of these like, the trade wars, you know,

24:00 This was the one thing that everyone said, Well, we still got like, domestic growth and we got tourism. And so you know, this is you take out the more than 2 million people coming here to visit Kentucky distilleries. I mean, my god there, there are talks in town about impacting the derby. I mean, I can't even imagine not having the derby. Brian, can you? I mean, I just can't I can't, I can't envision it. Now. I heard that today, too. They're talking about maybe postponing and it's, you know, they're still looking at it. No decisions made yet but that's, it's just crazy talk. I mean, let's face it, Churchill. I mean, there'll be like, I just bet from home. Oh,

24:44 yeah. Where's that from all right, no, fancy sign up for twin spires club and they'll give you you know, $50 free or whatever, and they'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

24:56 The other the other component of this, that

25:00 should be getting Blake excited, actually because a sale box is that this is going to be one of the moments where we see an enormous increase of shipments and people don't want to get out of their house. So they're not going to go to a liquor store. What are they gonna do? They're gonna buy, like, going to visit seal box calm or wherever. And

25:25 go Fred. Yeah.

25:29 It's 40 like 40

25:33 but uh, you know, that's that's what's going to happen. Is there going to get deliveries? I mean, we're all right. We're getting deliveries from, from Whole Foods and Kroger right now. So it's crazy. Yeah, I think there was somebody had actually talked about on our discord chat a little bit earlier through Patreon. And they were saying, Well, what happens if Corona gets spread into Amazon into these delivery services? And it was like, yeah, it's

26:00 It's a true concern. The other part of this is thank god they're heavily automated, right? There's robots that basically pack those boxes for everybody. But when someone sneezes on a robot,

26:11 what

26:14 are they ended to? Whatever this was all just a way for the robots to take control, actually run a virus. I'm with you on that. Now. I mean, everyone's talking about walking dead. But what if this is really Terminator about to happen?

26:29 They planted the seed.

26:32 conspiracies, Fred. What?

26:35 Surprise now pushing back in conspiracies speaking of vodka conspiracy, Jordan was today's email like a backhanded compliment to

26:44 Tito's yesterday What are we taught Hey, hold on. Let's let's set the stage here because I have no idea what

26:51 newsletter right for whiskey Wednesday, I went out and it was a PSA on how to make your own hand sanitizer. So he did give Tito's the nod and the fact that they are

27:00 aggressively letting consumers know whenever they tweet or interact with them on social media that no you cannot use Tito's for hand sanitizer because it's not 60% alcohol right so we did harm we do give them credit on that one right but I mean, let's be real if you're going to use hand sanitizer and you must use bourbon we prefer you drink it, but at least use 120 proof bourbon to do something right. But there's a comment in there too. Tito's about like, well, at least they're clearing some of the facts up and

27:27 crafted you know, made in Texas kinda

27:31 just made sure wasn't reading into it. But once again vodka fails. I mean, you look at it it's like everyone's like starting to champion it for something that it can make me be valuable for and again even do handsome.

27:46 That's that's a perfect way to end this. I don't really talk about coronavirus anymore, do you? Oh, yeah. No, no, no, that was much hysteria. Yeah, that was a nine. All right, good. So let's move on to the kind of the meat of the show here. Let's Shall we

28:00 Wait for Blake to open his bottle here because we can all hear it all that loud.

28:06 He had the mute control to hear it immediately. It's like gay. There we go. I'll mute him. Alright, perfect.

28:15 before the show started, you know, Aaron, you would think 42 times into this he would have figured it out.

28:23 But this is this is just like it's everything about get sanctioned. Yeah, it's it's either that his Wi Fi dies. I mean, it's, it keeps going. So, Alright, so let's kind of get into the meat of the show. Because the one thing that we've all kind of seen is just the hysteria that is surrounded Blanton's. And to kind of just give a little bit of background and context there is a great article that was posted by Chuck Cowdery back in 2013. And he gave a history of bland so I'm just gonna go ahead and just take like a minute or two just to read this just so everybody kind of gets up to speed on it because I know we've had people requests

29:00 Like, Hey, why don't you do an episode on the history of blends? Come to find out. There's probably not a whole lot that we could do a whole episode about. So this is gonna be it right here. So if you think back in the 1980s it was a bleak period for bourbon. thankthank Ryan

29:18 is poppin bottles they don't. They're shit what's going on around here? I'm listening Really? I thought it was a good timing. See, Aaron? This is what I'm talking about. Nobody, nobody's learned the proper or how to pour their PR, or I've got my mute button. I'll use camera but I pre poured everything and sure your next go. I've already popped a bottle or two on the show. So I think we're good. All right. I think everybody's got their bottle pops out of the way. Alright, so in the 90 or sorry, in the 80s. sales were down. inventories were high profits were under intense pressure and whiskey assets were changing hands. Most large producers were no longer independent. Instead they were part of conglomerates and with a portfolio of a household names back then.

30:00 Back then F Ross Johnson was the powerful CEO of Nabisco. Nabisco had a subsidiary called standard brands that included fleshman distilling. 30 Falk was the CEO of Fleischmanns and Bob Brandt and this guest Moran discuss my I'm gonna screw that up was the president. In 1983, Johnson decided to sell standard brands to Grand Metropolitan. A few years later, green Metro Metropolitan merged with Guinness to form biagio. Green Metropolitan already had a thriving drinks business that included JMP scotch and Smirnoff vodka, assuming they would be replaced after the sale folk and burnt Miranda's kiss. I know that's bad, resigned and started to start their own company. fulke was previously an executive with schenley. So he approached Muslim reckless, whose conglomerate own schenley about selling some assets Falk and Baranski has originally tried to acquire old charter, but reckless always needed money, so he agreed to sell ancient age bourbon brand and the distillery that produced

31:00 It then it was called the Albert B Blanton distillery. Today's Buffalo Trace folk and Baranski is called the new company h International. As the name suggests, they believe Bourbons future was outside of the US. One of the first moves was to enlist the master distiller at the time Elmer T. Lee with the creation of Blanton's single barrel bourbon to appeal to the Japanese market, but with multiple extensions in Japan and the US in 1991, fulke and Burns has sold 22 and a half percent interest in Asia international to Japan's to current shoes a with the right of first refusal to purchase the remaining shares in 1992, Fulk and Burns has sold their shares to Tucker for $20 million to car immediately sold the distillery to Sazerac but retain the corporate entity and brand trademark. Today Sazerac still owns Buffalo Trace and Buffalo Trace still produces all the whiskey for agent age, Blanton's and other age international products and brands using Nashville number two, which is also being used for Bourbons like Rock Hill farms as well.

32:00 Well, Chris Phalke commented on the article, and he said that that was his father ferdie had passed away from cancer in 2000. But Blanton's was the original super premium brand. And he said he can remember watching him draw the packaging idea on a napkin back in 1983. So follow all of that. Very. So. Yeah, I'd like to add, I'd like to add to that, because this is something that gets really lost in the history of that brand. And I would argue we could have a whole show on the history of it.

32:31 But in the 90s, basically, when the Albert Blanton was was head of the distillery he used to,

32:42 he used to take people out, and he used to pick barrels for him. And then he would actually put that into the Kentucky retail market, effectively making it like a single barrel asset, but they weren't really calling him single barrels back then. And so people you know, Sazerac were always you to use

33:00 It in their marketing that it was the first commercially available single barrel that often got pushback by people. But indeed, it was, but that brand had a huge impact on the world. You know, in my book bourbon I wrote about like how important it was for Japan and how it kind of opened that market up. Another thing that Blanton's did that was really important is it pissed off Maker's Mark and it started making fun of Maker's Mark and advertisements for the saying like, Oh, you have to talk about your wax because your whiskey isn't any good. So they kind of like you know, played with Maker's Mark in their own game and they went back and fourth. And so they had like this state, but blends created this statewide tasting competition, in which they selected tasers and Lexington and Louisville to to have a taste up between makers and blends. Blanton's one Lexington and makers one Louisville so plans is a really really important brand.

34:00 The return of bourbon and this Return of the the introduction of the gold. Blanton's is like For God's sake, it's about time. You know, it's about I want to want to get to that, because that's a that's a big part of today's show. But what I want to do is I kind of want to just trace this back about two years. And I want anybody that has a theory on why the hell did Blanton's just skyrocket in popularity? I know that we've seen it on some TV shows and everything like that, but was there was there something that happened that I missed that all of a sudden this round bottle the horse on top just just went crazy? I have a theory. So I want to jump in, but I guess I will. So I think it's and I wish I had notes because I talked to Chris Comstock about this the other day about

35:00 There's supply the supplies, not

35:04 the supplies, basically, I think it's like five x of what it was a few years ago, is what they're producing now. So it's not nearly as bad as people think. But in my opinion, what started to happen was a lot of these distributors in the store started seeing what was happening with Pappy and you know, the antique collection. And so they started allocating on the distribution side. So then instead of stores just like yeah, or whenever you want, they'd say, Oh, we can only give you two bottles. Well, then the stores start telling the customers Hey, look, I'm only getting two bottles of this. It's at that price point that makes it you know, the high end the bottles cool, it's it's, it tastes good. And so then as you know, that started building, you go into a store and see two bottles, you grab them and then there's an empty shelf. So then the I think the hype just started building and scarcity sells. So now every time people see it on the

36:00 shelf, it's like, oh, I've got to grab as many bottles as I can find or as I can get, because who knows when I'll see it again.

36:07 And that all seems to be happening happening over the last two to three years. I tell the story of that blanes was actually the first barrel pick I ever did for bourbon er, and that was back in 2015. And I remember the the retailer marked it up to I think it was $64. And I lost, you know, so many people saying that they're not going to work with a retailer that was trying to gouge like, I bought five cases, I had a few friends buy a bunch of cases. And now if I got a Blaine's barrel, you know, it'll be gone in a day and you could probably sell for 100 bucks a bottle or something crazy like that. But I still think it's all kind of like a an artificial demand or artificial shortage created by that middle tier. But that's just my opinion. I think it also has to do with the fact that right, so around that time, and don't get me wrong. We've been fans of Blanton's I think back in 2014 we caught

37:00 Call it out on the site that we weren't sure why people were overlooking up. But then is Buffalo Trace in general, right? So all their Bourbons started becoming more known to folks people started realizing Oh, pet Van Winkle comes from Buffalo Trace. Oh BTC What's that? Okay. And then Elmer got really big, right? And then others started getting big. So especially if they wanted a single barrel, right, they go in Hey, can I get an armor? Oh, you can't get an armor. But look at this cool bottle. You get this little horse top or his little wax on little bags, and I'm just finding the box. Why don't you go for that instead? Right? And it was just one of the it's just one of those things where people just want the next thing right so all right, so I can't get any other Buffalo Trace product. What else you got? You got plans, you can get that pretty easy. I'll take one of those. Right and then people start doing a little research, especially if people are really into bourbon. They realize that there's Blanton's gold, there's plans straight from the barrel, which used to be again, easy to find. So two years ago, it was what around two years ago I think master mouth stop shipping right and a lot of store shop stopped shipping from over in Europe. And it was just that snowball effect, right? There's no rhyme or reason to a lot of stuff. It's just people like to hoard people like to know what's cool.

38:00 Blanton's cannon right? Everyone, I'm sure has friends who asks, What should I buy in the store used to be really simple to say, Oh, just pick up a bottle of blends. It's great bourbon, reasonably priced. Just go for it. Right. I still say that. And then I catch myself going, except you're not gonna be able to find anymore, which stinks. But I think a lot of it is just that snowball effect that took place with consumers, especially around Buffalo Trace products. You brought up something very important. Jordan, as you brought up, Elmer T. Lee, and I've been thinking about this a lot since Kenny posed the question to us before the show about why did planes take off and I remember specifically after Elmer died, you could not find a martini you could not find it. And the one bottle that everybody recommended after that, because it was accessible was Blanton's, you know, it was a Rock Hill farms. It was always Blanton's was the was the bourbon that people recommended after Elmer T. Lee passed away. There couldn't be a more fitting bourbon to recommend since that was the

39:00 One that he brought, you know, he brought to life. And, you know, Elmer kinda gets forgotten. You know, Elmer doesn't get talked about as much as you know, some of the other deceased distillers like Booker know and Parker beam. And it's a real shame because he was a Titan of a distiller and I think that he would be, you know, smiling quite happily to know that his stuff was being It was very difficult to get he wouldn't be very happy with the price gouging. But I do believe that that is when it all started was in the in the quest to find Elmer. They got Blanton's and liked it. Fred, I kind of remember a little there was a at least a couple year time period where to me it was the opposite of that. People wanted Blanton's and and Elmer was aged couple of years more than Blanton's and I couldn't figure out why people wanted Blanton's instead of Elmer. I mean they're

40:00 is a time period where it over took Elmer. And I don't know anything about the production. I don't know anything about what's being withheld. But it it to Blake's point, it sure looks that way. So there's another thing that's sort of happening right now. And that is Buffalo Trace and heaven Hill are implementing new systems where you can only purchase allocated items that haven't healed sometimes it's once a month. And in the case of Blanton's at Buffalo Trace, they're now doing this once every three months of actually scanning your driver's license and turning people away. And this is because if anybody is unaware, the line that has been growing for Blanton's at the distillery has just gotten chaotic. I'm talking like two to 300 people that are waiting at six o'clock in the morning to get a bottle of regular Blanton's at the distillery. And so, you know, Aaron, kinda want to pose this question to you and get you get you involved here. Do you think this new system has a chance to actually succeed and work

41:00 Well, I was gonna

41:03 Aaron, you're cutting out, buddy. I think we lost him. Yeah, he and Blake or Sharon schleifer.

41:10 Want to bring them on camera? Yeah.

41:15 Yeah. Try to try to drop and come back on and come back if you can like maybe plug in or something. I'm not too sure. We'll, we'll get you. We'll get you in here.

41:26 All right, so so we'll take that in a different direction. So, Blake, do you think that has an actual chance to succeed with this particular kind of system? So what's the actual system again, sorry, I was typing whatever you know.

41:43 Loud they're only allowed how many bottles like one a month or something? It's this is what happens when like the teacher calls in you and you weren't paying attention.

41:53 Helen has placed they've had an in place for like two years they haven't held where they scan your license when you buy. Like buffalo grease implemented the same

42:00 Yeah, I mean you know you think about will it did that for a while and then they had their their do not sell to lists and everything, it'll, it'll definitely slow things down but I don't know. I mean, I think that's good because

42:15 ultimately you want some bottles at the distillery whenever people come and visit you. I had this experience a few weeks ago and we're up there and a friend of mines like, man, none of these, you know, these distilleries have any bottles like I thought it'd be able to get something cool. You know, heaven Hill, at least had. I remember what we got. I think that William heaven hill there. So at least there was something but that's the hard part is you don't want just the locals to come grab everything that is available. Turn around and throw it up on Craigslist or wherever people are selling these days. We don't do that in Kentucky man. Yeah, it's never happened. Right? Yeah. But you know, so you kind of want to spread it out a little bit. So I think that'll help. Um, but you know, it's

43:00 Like anything else, people are going to do what they want to do, they're going to send their sister they're going to send their cousin they're going to send, if they really want it that bad, but overall, hopefully it kind of spreads the allocation a little bit further. And I'll say, since I'm not located in Kentucky, right, I, at least from heaven Hill standpoint, I actually appreciate that they do that now, because it seems more often than not, whenever I go down to Heaven, Hell, and I always stop by when I'm in town, these tend to have a few bottles, right? That's, I think, based on the fact that they're helping to limit people from buying them. So from that standpoint, I think it's fantastic, right, especially being somebody who's visiting Kentucky and wanting to go I make sure to stop by the distilleries and buy stuff, but now they have stuff to buy, which I'm super appreciative. Yeah, and that's actually part of the reason this was actually implemented was Freddy Johnson was on the stage with Fred at legend series recently, and he talked exactly about this that this is all because of just trying to counteract the flipping game. And if you can limit of what people can get, then you can do that. And plus, they want to

44:00 Word people that are traveling from all around the country to go and visit the distillery and they want to get something unique while they're there. And this is an opportunity to actually make that happen. It's you know, they could release a lot more bottles to

44:15 we'll get to that option. Yeah. It's a difficult it's difficult, you know, I look at it, I look at it from the perspective of like, every time, you know, they, they, the distillers, like, wish for something and then they get it. And then like, five years later, they're like, Oh, shit. Yeah, like net. Like, I remember when they were lobbying for this. They were like, begging to have special bottles. They were begging to have this attention and this FaceTime with the consumers. And now you hear them and they're like, crap, what are we going to do? You know, like now they're facing some of the same problems at their retailer partners have so a lot more headaches for them for sure.

45:00 him personally, you know, three months is, I think a little bit generous. I would have rather seen a year. Because if there's two to 300 people lining up to do this, and they're bringing their brothers, their sisters, their cousins or aunts and their uncles to get a bottle of Blanton's. Like, let's just nip this, like it's Blanton's after all right, like it is it's good whiskey. But let's let's try to let's try to curb this because I don't see a reason why people should be going this nuts over and if they have a bottle of bourbon. And I think I remember seeing a lot of comments when people announced that this system is getting put in place. They're like, Oh, like why are you gonna hurt your you know, your biggest consumers and your cheerleaders and I'm like, they make a lot of different whiskey. There's a lot of different bourbon out there on the market. Like don't pin yourself into just like that one bottle. You know like that Nashville makes a lot of different stuff, right? So like you don't you don't need to be pigeon holing yourself and it just one particular kind of whiskey for everything.

46:00 You drink? Yeah, I was at a store one time and a guy was asking the clerk for it he's like you guys got any Blanton's as a total wine and and so everyone having plantains and I was like hey man like actually they've got a Hancock single barrel pick that they've done and it was like I think seven years old or something

46:20 the exact same mash bill you know, maybe it wasn't in warehouse H or whatever it is, but pretty much the exact same thing is like I don't want that crap. I'm like, Okay, nevermind. No, I mean why bother? No, you bring up a really good point though Brian right? The whole point the whole reason they had the horse in the first place right and way back when wanted spelled lens which is cool, but to entice people to keep buying it. So then you do find people who actually you know, for multitude of reasons right and I'm not judging whatsoever who once they find something and they do want to collect it just for that purpose. I realized you can buy the stopper from Buffalo Trace itself right? But they actually didn't want to start collecting the bottles just to get the topper so not only do they like up and other like corn

47:00 I need to get all the rest of them. Right. So now their demand is well, I just don't need one or two. Now I got to find all I got to the letters, I got to fill it out. Exactly. Right. So it's it's, they've kind of created a little bit of a headache in that sense for themselves. If there was no letters on the bottle, that would definitely eliminate a little bit of that from some well, and a lot of people in the comments have said that the dump date being on every bottle, you know, how many posts have you seen, you know, oh, my kid was born or you know, oh, I'm looking for this dump date. Yeah, work on whatever they want. Yeah, whatever it is, they they want that data on there. I mean, it's it's marketing genius is what it is. It's a product of success. You know, I think Fred alluded to this a little bit of they worked really hard to make these things popular and, you know, get special releases out of the distillery. And then I don't want to say it backfire, but I think it caused them more headaches, and they probably they were thinking it would but it's a product of success. So at the end of the day, I don't think they mind it.

48:00 No no no one thing that none of these companies are doing is they're not utilizing technology you know and Kenny I'd like to get your your thoughts on this because you're the tech guy but How hard would it be for them to like create like an order and hold or some some kind of system for online to connect with a point of sale where someone could plan their trip and then come pick up a bottle I just I just feel like there's so many opportunities to alleviate these problems that they never seem to explore they they're stuck in these inundated antiquated stand in line look at an ID kind of crap. I think it's just simple ecommerce is that a lot of and I think we've touched on a lot of times, even just retailers and everybody else in general, like this type of market is is behind the curve of what we see in every other type of industry. And so if they don't take the initiative to try to figure out like, how do we get our hands in the how do we get our product into the hands of consumers faster, easier, and less friction and make them

49:00 A happy consumer. If you don't take that into account, then they're not gonna do anything about it. You know, the other thing is, is that if you look at what the SAS rack is building with blends and Buffalo Trace and everything, like, they don't really, I mean, they're gonna sell out no matter what. So do they need to go through all that extra effort to invest in an e commerce platform to invest in something where like, I don't know whether they have their own online, put your email in a database and come and pick your bottle up on this date kind of thing? I don't know if they really need to. So it kind of like I said, there's there's, it's a double edged sword from there. And you do actually so Fred, I mean, that's a great point that you make both Kenny and Fred but you do see some distilleries doing that, right. So look at new ref. Look at angels MD with their main club, right? They both do that when they have special releases come out, you can pre buy and they give you a 30 days to pick them up or X number of days to pick up. I think that's it's great. And it's also great for again, if somebody is out in town to be like, Alright, I got a month to go pick this up. I'll plant quickly.

50:00 trip around this or something like that, right? And it drives people there. And then I'm sure once they're there, they're like, Well, shit, I'm here by some other stuff, whether it's from that distillery or local store around there, whatever. But it's just great for the local economy in general. And I wish more distilleries did that. He was envies absolutely crushing their special bottles. People make events out of that. And I have never talked to one unhappy person out of there. I mean, I hear I hear so many unhappy people coming out of heaven Hill, there's so many people, unhappy people coming out of out of SAS, right. Really no one from being but I don't think anyone's necessarily going there for special releases. But the key distilleries that have special releases of all them angels envy is crushing it by far that program that they have people love it. Yep. And plus, it's an easy way for you to kind of like allocate these things online. And not only that is you basically sell it before anybody actually picks it up. So it's, it's, it's instead of like putting it out there and hoping people come like, it's all online if you make it easy and frictionless

51:00 Then you're gonna have a much better way to you don't have that kind of like cash flow in that pipeline coming into man. What if they did like bourbon futures where you could like, you know, buy like a case of Blanton's five years from now. So technically that's kind of what Bardstown bourbon company is doing. So they their barrel pick now is you pay $1,000 deposit to get it, and then which I guess not technically futures, but then you let it age as long as you want. And essentially you just pay the same price for whatever the standard bottling is whether you let it go to 10 years or you let it go six months.

51:39 Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that. It's just not it's not proven, but like Blanton not nearly as exciting to Yeah, I mean, that it is it is a concept for sure. But like, I mean, imagine like if you could, if you could buy a futures, Pappy 23 right now when your child is born,

52:00 or something like that. You do it in a heartbeat. Yeah. Now, right now I would nobody would want to track that accountant. Somebody put in the or Aaron put in the chats about basically that's how Bordeaux works and yeah, you know the it's not like a Pappy 23 where you're waiting 23 years but there is some time there and it is interesting to see how that whole market works and I mean, it's pretty crazy. We may get there one day, the ghosts Yes, that's the one thing that we don't that we don't have that the wine world has is like these really high level business people call negotiators who basically broker every single thing. And I think that's why angels envy so successful with that program as West Henderson is kind of like a hybrid, you know, in this world. He's such a business forward leaning mind and you know, it has his dad's DNA. Anyway. All right, I want to shift topic a little bit because this is still gonna be Blanton's, but the biggest news

53:00 That happened last week or was it two weeks ago whatever it was was the idea and the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US

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54:21 The biggest news that happened last week or was it two weeks ago, whatever it was, was the idea and the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US. And for anybody that has been a bottle chaser or you've been into bourbon for a little bit. We've all known that. Blanton's gold and Blanton straight from the barrel are something that we gravitate towards because you like oh, it's higher proof and, and now we're all like oh, and it's got a shiny gold horse. So of course I want all these. As Ryan said earlier, I want the I want the ski with all the gold letters on it now. So the there's a few questions that arise with this and the first one. I'm going to

55:00 Come to his tariffs, because one thing that we've seen is that tariffs are being it's being catastrophic to the whiskey industry in regards of just it's both sides of the coin here. Now, there is the idea that people are saying, Okay, well, if we are going to have to pay tariffs, then let's go ahead and hold more whiskey back that we know that we can sell to our existing consumer base here in the US. Do you all think that this is a reaction to that? Or do you think this was planned out a little bit further in advance? And they said, You know what, we're going to just do this because we're, let's go ahead and make some more headlines. I'll go first, right. I think 100% has to do with tariffs, right? I think they are looking in real time and how to react. I think they saw a business opportunity. And they're going for it right. They don't want to have products sitting there, or they don't want to overcharge consumers,

55:55 to needlessly sell to no one in Europe, if no one's gonna be paying that price.

56:00 They saw Hey, Blanton's is hot, let's make it happen. And 100% that played into it, whether there's a little pre work behind the scenes going into it potentially. But don't get me wrong, that current tariff situation 100% played into this. I also want to mention that in the press release, they also said that this is going to be an SRP of $120 for this particular bottle too. So don't forget that.

56:21 I like to say that at the top of Buffalo Trace is probably the single smartest person in the entire spirits industry, Mark Brown. That man had this plan probably five years ago and had a rollout leading up to it. And this year is probably going to be like, like some additional Weller products, maybe a single barrel or something like that. I mean, you're going to start seeing like Buffalo Trace, kind of like, take their super premiums and dice them up into more limited edition releases. And it's it's all about getting another skew getting another press release at another company.

57:01 They they own a lot of the conversation market, they own a lot of the store they own almost all the skews that all the retailers want. And if they every time they add one, they've got another one. So they have another reason to have a meeting with a retailer they have another meeting to have a meeting. Another reason to have a meeting with a an on premise person plans goal, in my opinion, is probably just one of the actually well they're foolproof last year was the beginning of the rollout of seeing the kind of evolution of what Buffalo Trace is planning to do with their premium product. They're dicing them up gradually raising those price raising the prices up a little bit more and making them even more valuable. Yeah, and I don't know that's a it's looking at it from a marketing standpoint. Genius. Yeah.

57:57 I don't know there's there's a lot better

58:00 Values out there in my book and I just I I try to resist so much of the hype and I I like the ancient age products probably better than than their other mash bill and and other than some Weller 12 or the the B tech, William LaRue Weller the ancient age math is my favorite Mossville.

58:25 But the marketing just it rubs me the wrong way. I get it. And I wish Aaron was able to stay on because he could speak very highly to this with his experience at Esquire and some of the other more industry facing publications. I'm just telling you, man, you could just throw you could you could dangle any Weller Blanton's, even Buffalo Trace, you know outside of a Manhattan window and you'll have like 50 bro dudes chasing it down. It's the stuff is crazy. And it's genius. And congratulations to them for doing it. It's absolute genius.

59:00 But there's so much for roses and wild turkey out there that that in other brands that are so much better and so much more of a value, I just don't get it personally. So so then that then that then that that's not really a knock on them. That's basically that's our job to say, hey guys can't get this, you know, try this and i and i think Jordan does a great job of that. I think Blake does a great job of that. Kenny, you really just drink it all. So

59:30 Equal Opportunity drinker. That's right.

59:33 And so Fred, I kind of want to like take a counter argument to kind of what you said a little bit, because there was something that came up in the chat by Dave Preston. And he had mentioned that, you know, he thinks that this has to do with like, increased stock that's resulting from ramped up production. However, I kind of look at it and think like, well, maybe they're just taking and to take Jordan's side of this. Maybe they're taking away from the European allocation now and just shifting to the United States, because we've all been

1:00:00 on tours here, right. And we all know we've been in the Blanton's bottling Hall, every day you're in there. They were bottling plants, and they're doing it around the clock every single day. And it doesn't seem that they can keep up with the demand. So where is all this extra inventory coming from? If you don't think it's just like taking away from European allocation and from tariffs, if, like how to keep pumping out more product. So again, this is my opinion, this is all been planned. These are not knee jerk business people. These are very smart strategic, especially when it comes to marketing, and they happen to have great whiskey. And I just think this was a part of it. Did they change their European allocation? Hey, maybe they did, but I think this product was always planned. Maybe Maybe it got bumped up a little bit for for anticipation of more terrorists or continued tariffs. But I think this has always been in, in creation. And I think we're going to see a lot more

1:01:00 from, from that distillery with new products coming out of their heavyweight prop brands like Weller and Blanton's, and, you know, I don't think we'll see anything added to the Buffalo Trace antique collection. But I think you'll start seeing more limited releases. I got to push back just a little bit on that too, though, Fred. So I think, don't get me wrong. I think it's super smart if they were planning this for a few years, right. But I think I would categorize them just as smart for being a very smart businessman. If they read the current situation. They read the current landscape, the current tariffs and said, Alright, how can we capitalize this? Right? How can we turn this around and make it so that it works in our favor? Right, I'd say that'd be a just a smart individual and just a smart move. So while it may be planned, right, I got to give them I hope I'd give them credit for reading the current landscape and saying, what can we do to make this work in our favor? And hey, maybe both are Right, exactly. You know, so like, what I know is I'm not running a billion dollars.

1:01:56 I'm sitting here. So I am, this isn't

1:02:00 Confirm, but it was basically like kind of backdoor confirmed of Buffalo Trace production. So they were producing about 12,000 barrels a year in 95 by 2010, that was around 100,000 barrels. And by 2018, it was 250,000 barrels.

1:02:17 So may not be exact, but gives you an idea of the ramp up. They've been doing over the last, you know, two decades. So when you talk about they may not have had to steal from the European allocation. That's where I think there is more barrels that are going around now whether or not it's just a you know if it's really because of tariffs or is just because, you know, take advantage of the US market a little more. I think it could be a little bit of both, maybe it turned out to be good timing. But at the end of the day, I think they love the new press releases, they love the new brand extensions. You know, what was it

1:02:54 is it benchmark that's getting the next redo You know, we've seen them do it with well are now the 17

1:03:00 to benchmark and I think well, you know, they've kind of evolved the H Taylor brand to have a new release every year. I think we'll just like Fred said, we'll just keep seeing new bit several new releases each year because they want to be able to go back to the retailer, the distributor, the customer and everybody likes something that shiny and new. I got they need to scrub that turd of benchmark that bottles.

1:03:30 They had some some hang up with that. I know they were

1:03:33 were going through with it. I forget what it was. But apparently that got delayed a little bit. But you know, I think we'll the each Taylor one's about to drop the marriage or whatever it is.

1:03:44 I'm sure we haven't seen the last new label for Weller and

1:03:50 yeah, I mean, ultimately, I don't think the Blanton's gold is going to be a big allocation. So it'll be gone or impossible to find but

1:04:00 Here we are talking about it. So it worked from their perspective, I'm sure because it'll be sold out before it even touches a retail shelf. Yeah, but let's make let's let's also like take a look at what everyone else is doing here. We're seeing brown Forman do something similar with old forester. We we've seen heaven Hill, do some things just like this with the Elijah Craig rye. So every company right now is coming out with these extensions that have a continued conversation. And really, we're, we're in that spot, because we're all out there looking for it. You know, as soon as something comes out, you know, how many people are wedded, you know, calling up the retailers to get the bottle. And that's where we're at right now. This is the, the distillers are gaming, the hunt, they're there, they're tracking the consumers, you know, they don't have to spend a lot of money on marketing, how they could be watching this podcast right now. And studying the chat just to know that you know, from

1:05:00 Every one of you that are on the chat, there's 100, and a market they want to target. So that's where we are right now. And I think the key point to that too, right? And I think underlying what you're saying, Fred, is people want new, right? So all these brand new extensions, everything else, right? People are on the quote unquote hunt for bourbon. But it's kind of turned to the, to the I'm gonna use the car model, right analogy. People just want what's the newest thing for 2019 I realized this was hot in 2018. But it also existed what's brand new this year? What's coming out? So it's like this weird game this weird game theory where distilleries now pigeonhole themselves to they need a new product, right? Either a new product or just a brand extension something every single year or multiple times a year to keep consumers interested in their in their brand, which you've never seen in years past before, right? So it's like whole new territory for everyone. And those that are doing that right are going to be left in the dust a little bit.

1:05:58 Yeah, so

1:06:00 So, there's one thing that I kind of want to circle back on that that Blake had mentioned earlier and it was talking about the ramping up production because we just got done picking two barrels of Buffalo Trace and Susanna has a fantastic tour guide there. And they just got they just got done doing their their shutdown for renovations and now they're doing 1200 barrels per day. Right. So lots of production However, when we think about Blanton's What does Blanton's do? It comes from one warehouse, right? warehouse, ah, as Chris and Matt kusik said on the chat earlier, did they get a renovation? like are they getting bigger? No, it's holding the same amount of barrels that it's always held. So like there's still this like this question that says Like, how are you able to keep pumping out more product to be able to do that? And I'll throw a question to you all as well as, as this becomes more popular. Will we see quality suffer because remember, this is a non h data product.

1:07:00 Right. So nothing saying that they have to put something that's a 468 year, whatever it is on it. Well, do you think quality could suffer in the long term? So just to point out the why it's not age data, we do get that dump date, right. So we will at least be able to see if it starts getting younger and younger. When you don't know. You know, you know,

1:07:22 I bet

1:07:24 I can put you down here, Jordan.

1:07:29 Let me know if you want to dump date. I'll put it up in a box and send it to you.

1:07:34 I don't want that. Hey, so I'm probably gonna be the outlier here. But I've never been one who's really been that frantic over Blanton's. It's never scored that highly for me. And it's always done poorly and blind tastings. I think one year at San Francisco, I didn't even metal it. I don't remember what year that was or I'd tell you but it's not been something that has always gravitated toward my palate. So I can't

1:08:00 I can't see the quality going down. I think if you like Blanton's that that that style is going to be there. I personally am buying Buffalo Trace, regular every day of the week over blends. Mexico said something kind of funny to say like, does it have to actually be at the warehouse? He should just be finished in warehouse age because maybe they just like roll it through the middle of it. And they're like, hey, it was a warehouse age for like 20 seconds. So what mean that you know, that warehouse,

1:08:29 it probably holds what it's probably not a 20,000 barrel warehouse, but it's probably,

1:08:35 you know, 10 or 15 minutes a big warehouse. So, I'm guessing you know, before a lot of those barrels, were going to Buffalo Trace or wherever it was. And now there may just say, all right, every barrel that's in here is gonna be a bland bottle now, but on the quality, you know, I don't see the quality really dropping.

1:08:57 I doubt it'll really mess

1:09:00 With the age, you know, it'll stick around that six year age range for a long time. And I don't I don't see them really changing that up. Because at the end of the day, I think it would hurt them more for people to have bad plans than it would for them to, you know, sell a little more.

1:09:19 That's not what's really pushing the business for them. I agree with you, but I bet you we could look at it even 2013 or 2014 Blanton's and taste it blind with a current Blanton's and you're going to have a better blends in 2013 or 2014.

1:09:36 I don't sound like a challenge. So is this in your head though? I mean, we've been told by my head Yeah, we can say it about this kind of stuff forever, right? We'd be like, Oh, well, the new stuff can't compete with the old stuff. But I'm not even saying old stuff. I'm saying you know, not not too terribly long ago. Yeah. Well, it's like seven years ago now I guess. Yeah, but Blake, you got some of those bourbon are 2015

1:09:59 There we go.

1:10:00 We can do a blind sample on that we don't the sample, you just send a bottle each of

1:10:05 you got it. No, it's bottle time. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean, I don't know, it's hard to say. Because I've heard from some of the, like, the older plans from the 90s. and stuff, were actually like, 1012 year old barrels that that were being bottled. But so that's a completely different bourbon than like, the six year but who knows it? It'd be a fun experiment. Yeah. So I that's that's a really good question to kind of, you know, go into the towards we get to the end of this because, you know, Jordan, I kind of lean on you here because it within a breaking bourbon article recently. You all talked about Blanton's gold and sort of like what it meant. And, you know, you kind of talked about, you know, the hype and hysteria of you know, basically like chasing after the shiny new red ball. And then ultimately just being disappointed the other day because you're not going to get your hands on it right. And so you put at the end of the

1:11:00 Article like people are curious about what's new. But that excitement can be quickly overtaken with resentment. It's unknown how sustainable this practice will be for the company. However, there's other plenty of non bourbon companies that find great success with this strategy. I was kind of curious, like, you know, what are the kind of companies like have a had a strategy like this? And, you know, in Do you think that this is always going to work with bourbon even in the future? Yes, I think right, two part question here. So I think it's true, right? We also that we often post these press releases or I'll post these articles will talk about and often it's from Buffalo Trace around a new product or a limited edition, just something that people know is gonna be really hard to get. We have so many readers reach out on a daily basis saying where can I just find a bottle of Buffalo Trace, let alone any of their other products right. So we put out the blends gold press release, and instantly we started being just inundated with people just reaching out saying great, another Buffalo Trace product I'm never going to see. Right and we're like

1:12:00 Let's interesting this season you haven't hit the shelves yet and people already pissed about that. First you look at other and I'm gonna put Blanton's gold now in a quote unquote premium product range, right? Maybe not the Pappy Van Winkle range, but premium product range, you look at other products, right? We'll say high end watches, high end cars, whatever, where there's a limited amount, right and people are still fascinated by them knowing that they're not gonna be able to get one right but they're still super fascinated they're not pissed at the car brand they're not pissed at four that they're not gonna be able to buy the new Ford GT because it's so the price range. You know why? Because they can still go out and buy another Ford product. A lot of people that Buffalo Trace using that analogy they see hey, I can't complain this gold But guess what? I can't get any other Buffalo Trace product either. So what does even matter? so terrible?

1:12:41 fireball fireball and after Archibald screwball, thanks. I'm not sure if they want it either.

1:12:48 But you know, it's one of those things where I think people are getting a little tip that Yeah, all these products keep coming out. Especially from Buffalo Trace, but you know what, we can't get anything they put out anyways. So what's the point? Right It's like them get

1:13:00 Salt rubbed into ones and I think consumers are getting really excited about this. So we'll we'll see if this keeps up but with more you know as Fred pointed out more and more Buffalo Trace products are gonna be hitting the market and years to come kind of back to that you got to release something new every year and people are just going to either keep getting really pissed me there starts shutting the brand or we'll see what happens but it's gonna be a really interesting experiment that's for sure. You know, Jordan he bring you brought up something like that those were the kinds of letters that we would get at whiskey advocate like nine and 10 years ago. And you know, it led to them changing a lot of things. You know, because people were so upset like you even go to straight bourbon comm 2006 to 2011 archives and you'll read a lot of people just being angry that they can't get stuff. You know, the one thing that is a constant and this and any kind of like any any anything that I could ever offer you as advice would be to not get from

1:14:00 Straight with that, don't stop doing what you're doing. You guys are doing a great job with that but with your with your reporting, but the anger people it just, it never ends. You start happy. You get pissed off when you become a bourbon fan and then eventually you you you accept it and you just find yourself sitting on the couch and drinking Maker's Mark again.

1:14:25 It's a cycle of being a bourbon fan. There's no way around it. I'm loving the comments that are that are finding the Ford brands and naming each Sazerac brand for what for branded is

1:14:40 stag juniors the F 150. Raptor.

1:14:44 Exactly. So I also kind of want to just kind of touch on the price point a little bit too because $120 it's steep. Right? That's, that's that's, that's even over a super premium of whatever that that threshold was a while ago, maybe that maybe that's just the new premium.

1:15:00 Remember, the Blanton's gold that I purchased overseas? Even after shipping, getting it back home, it equated about 70 to $80 per bottle. Right? So, I look at this and I'm thinking, Well, I think you can actually still get this cheaper in like St. Martine and some of the other islands and other areas that are around. So do you look at this as and I've always been a big fan of of Sazerac of what they do of not gouging or pricing out of the market, because Pappy 23, they could, they could sell $1,000 bottle to the distributor, they could do it and it will sell and it's not a problem, but they don't do it. Right. And I think they do it on principle and they do it because they look at the long game. However, this is like one of the first times that they've come out and they are pricing it essentially where secondary was when it was around.

1:15:53 So I'm gonna jump in and then allow others takeover but because I've been sitting on this comment for a while, so I reviewed Blanton's gold back in 2015

1:16:00 Right, I had bought in a bottle from overseas and I think MSRP was around 8085 and total right? Don't me wrong blends gold is actually my favorite Blanton's bottle out of the lineup, right green regular straight from the barrel actually preferred plantains, gold, but even back then at $5 per bottle, I said, I really would pause and think about spending the money on this for just getting you know, a bottle or two a regular blends, because I think you know, the price to value in terms of taste just isn't quite there. And now when you jack it up to over $100 I mean, folks, you know, blends if you can, if you have a choice between the two regular buttons all the way just because it's going to be cheaper and you're going to get close enough, right? If you can't, I still say there's a lot of really great Bourbons out there for under 50 bucks. That sure it's not going to be the Blanton's name not gonna be the bottle not gonna be the shiny gold stopper or you're gonna get something that tastes really fantastic. Amen. So I would I would have people pause and think about that before they drop the money. Anybody else? Have a comment?

1:17:00 Are you just, I don't know. I endorse Jordans comments fully. I think part of the problem is now these days, most people are probably paying close to that three figure mark for regular blends, which is, and that's just when they can find it. So it's kind of like, you know, you have to confront reality as reality and not how we want it to be. So, I don't know, would I pay $135? Well, maybe I would, but

1:17:33 we've all got problems. I grab it, but Yeah, I know. But I don't think that's a good deal. Like I'm with Jordan like $135 for that bourbon. You throw it in a blind tasting in your blind tasting of 10 Bourbons, and it's probably gonna come in probably that, you know, six, five to six range five, six. Yeah. So this is what this is what I want. So if someone is listening to this

1:18:00 Show and you're an economist, I want you to study the price points of new releases of the past five years from craft distilleries from blue blood distillers and compare the new pricing to their old pricing and their and their traditional items. It's all over the damn place. There's no rhyme or reason.

1:18:22 I mean, I could I could find a so called craft whiskey that was aged and Abraham Lincoln's favorite tree for 1500 dollars. Or I could get a bourbon that's actually you know, when it came out all right, that was actually really good when it came up. I got shit on heavily for its price point peerless a three year old rye, which was actually really good. was $99 and people lost their shit. And then, you know, and then Elijah Craig Wright comes out. It's 30 bucks, and an old forester right comes out and it's 23 and it's like, it's all over the place. I don't I don't know how they're pricing this stuff.

1:19:00 Are they just throwing darts? I mean, how are they figuring this shit out? I think it's all about what you know what categories they want to be, and they want to have certain ones for every occasion, you know, a lot of them are getting smart and they say, all right, we see some openings in the daily drinker categories. Let's put some more 20 you know, 20 $25 bottles out there and really take advantage of the people who are tired of seeing every bottle that's, you know, $100 or more in blank Is it the big guys being able to do that? You know? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's much harder for I'm not saying that the smaller guys can't because you look at somebody like a Chattanooga who's been able to you keep the price. pretty reasonable. You their two products are $35 and $45. Around that range. But overall, yeah, I mean, old forester and the big guys really have

1:19:56 a huge advantage here and kind of I think there's Jordan's point about

1:20:00 Buffalo Trace, I'm surprised they haven't come out with a new product line. And maybe that's what the benchmark, the idea of benchmark was, was to have that, that lower priced, hopefully readily available product that's out there. Whenever people say, Well, I can't get blends, but at least benchmark still here. So you know, they want to hit every mark in the market, if they can. It used to be that they would decide what their price point was by going into the liquor store, and seeing which bottle was selling, and what they wanted to be next to. And that's how they used to do it. And I don't feel like they do that anymore. I just, I just think they kind of they have I think they might have too many, like MBAs in a room crowding over a table. And they don't have really any. They're just looking at like, Oh, hey, who's gonna buy it? Oh, bro, dude, and Wall Street's gonna buy it. So 120 I mean, I don't know. I don't know how they're priced it. It's crazy. there's a there's a comma in a spreadsheet somewhere.

1:21:00 That's somebody just messed up. And it's just like, I will let it roll, which I guarantee you in blink or in the Blanton's gold meetings, there was somebody who was saying, nope, push the price to $200. And they then you had somebody else who was like, now let's let's be more reasonable and do 130 you know, it's, they know what they have. And so would it have sold out just as well at 200? I think there's, I think, yes, but I don't know. We're all crazy for buying all these Bourbons anyways.

1:21:34 Like, you know, they're hosting What do you think about this like 130 bucks you buy? Not what would you do? Would you recommend somebody buy it for that price? And not like, like show aside from everything, just as a consumer, would you buy $130 bottle of planes? I think it goes back into whatever people do you always you always try to get your first bottle, right, try it. That's great. And we talked about this all the time, when you're doing

1:22:00 tastings and everything like that. Get a few people together. If you find it, split it, whatever, try it, do it. However, I don't see this as something that actually, I take that back because people are going to go crazy and they're going to go buy it up anyway. For me personally, it's not going to be that, you know, I, I've been fortunate to be in bourbon long enough like you all to know that I was able to buy this overseas for a much cheaper price a long time ago. So I'm okay with it. Is it my favorite bourbon? No.

1:22:29 Do I like straight from the barrel? A lot more? I do. Sorry, Jordan. I do. Like I'm a huge big

1:22:35 preference. No, yeah. And so and so I'm, I would say like, I would lean towards that way and I'd say you know what, save your hundred 20 bucks. Go and try and figure out like if you've got a relative that's on a cruise ship after this whole Corona thing flies over and say, well in cruises, everybody don't go on cruises. No, not right now. You know whether it's there or whether you're going to Netherlands or whether you're going somewhere

1:23:00 And you say like, just wait out for that bottle straight from the barrel. That's personally what I would do. Because that's, that's where I think, if you're going to spend 120 bucks on a bottle, because retail even over there, that's about what you're gonna pay is 120 bucks a bottle and you're gonna get, you know, at the same exact price. Like I said, for me, I think the price point is high. It really is. And I think that, you know, a lot of people even said in the chat, it's like, you're paying 120 bucks for a six year product.

1:23:29 That's pretty expensive, right? I actually don't think it's high for the product. I mean, because, as pointed out in the chat, by numerous people supply and demand, the supply, the demand for this is off the charts. So my whole commentary about $120 I just kind of want rationale behind it. And you know, just that, I know the market will bear that. I'm just speaking in general from the bourbon industry. I just don't feel like anyone really hasn't has much of a blue book on how to price right now. But blends

1:24:00 is not going to have any problems selling. They mean it's agreed there's going to be lines you could charge what they want can be allocated. We're going to be miserable. Well, no world will buy for roses and wild turkey and other things. Hey, hey, I had a four roses the other day that just tasted flat out off to me. It was a song. Yeah, it was a single barrel. It's just off somebody's private selection. Yeah, store picker, just regular. Now was a regular It was a regular one. And I tasted it the next day to make sure wasn't my palette that day. And it just it was weird. Hey, Fred. I don't know if you've been around this long enough. But did you know that you could have two barrels side by side? And they?

1:24:43 Very rarely I have never had an off product from for roses. Never. That was the first time Yeah, except for a actually from the 90s add Smurf products. Who was it was Elmer T. Lee who had like the spoiled batch that uh, it was 2015 Yeah. 2015

1:25:00 The the wet cardboard batch 14 corporal Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And don't don't forget Jim Rutledge is mutated dispatch. That means remedy the white whale. Absolutely. So I'm going to finish this up with one last question about blends. And this is now that we have seen Blanton's gold Come on, it's it's making waves will we ever see? And we'd mentioned already straight from the barrel ever hit the US? Yes. It's gotta be it's gotta be a B tech. I mean, it will. I don't know, mess with that. I don't think they'll mess with the antique collection. But I would say yes, yes. So I'm going to say yes. And I'm going to go back to that comment, in theory we're talking about, they're going to need a new product, right? Not in 2020 but 2021 2022 23, whatever. They need a new product every year or two new products of the year and straight from the barrel is an easy one to slide in there. And based on the barrel that I have in my truck, yes.

1:26:02 We are all headed to Norton Commons. I get it.

1:26:06 Yeah, I mean, I would say, especially if these tariffs stick around to just kind of add on to what Jordan was saying. Yeah, I mean, if you want to be able to, and it hurts me to say this because I've heard people for so long say, Alright, I love tariffs, like more bourbon in the USA. And I'm like, No, like, no, that's that's not how like international trade works. Like, we need commerce. Like we need all this, like, we have to grow bourbon category as a whole. However, if this is what's gonna happen, and it's like, Okay, well, they could, they could basically sell it here in the USA for and they would get more money out of it for the same price that they're going to have to sell with tariffs and everything else overseas. Hell yeah, like might as well keep it here. Right. So I could definitely see the argument that we will see it here in a few years. I realize if we do have Gold's going for 130 you realize straight from the barrel is going to be a pricey product. That's a $200

1:27:00 Yeah it's 250 Yeah, yeah, agreed. Mm hmm yeah, I was just getting everybody get one last one there huh All right. fantastic way to close out the show everybody so I want to say thank you again for coming on. I think we we hit on a lot of stuff. So as usual we didn't do in the podcast at the very beginning. I want everybody to kind of give their outro So Brian, I'll let you go first. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm again late addition to it because I am coronavirus virus didn't let me do my taste tonight was clients. Happy to be here. The only thing I want to add other than the normal find me at sipping corn calm bourbon justice calm is Obie topping would have been the number one player of the year. They wouldn't be Kansas in the Final Four if it had happened.

1:28:00 That's what I'm looking forward to I wish would have been there thanks guys. Absolutely Jordan

1:28:08 Jordan one of the three guys from breaking bourbon calm can find us on instagram twitter facebook at breaking bourbon and make sure to go to the website for daily basis as we do update the upcoming release calendar quite often well Blake economy yes kind of narrows down so i've you know, I'm taking double time for myself and for Aaron taking his outro as well so if you want to go for it I messaged him said Paul I was having computer issues I don't know if I said internet it gets us all it gets us all But no worries. Like I know that all Yeah, I've said I'm just glad I'm Can you know put the heat on somebody else for once on the air.

1:28:48 But no, so I'm Blake from bourbon er, calm. You know, always fun to be here and I thought this was a great show a lot of good information. So hopefully we all got to sit around and enjoy and some bourbon

1:29:00 And, you know, talk about the craziness and avoid hearing the corona virus for a little while some enjoyed it as always guys, thanks for having me. Absolutely. And that's kind of what I wanted to do tonight was to hopefully take everybody's mind a little bit off of it right and talking about Blanton's was something that I think was easy to do. There's been a lot of news about it recently and I think over the past year, and even two years we've seen this just go berserk in the market and we've just seen a lot of people really chase after and maybe this is also one of those brands that is also helping fuel the growth of bourbon overall because it is a pretty bottle and people look at it and they get behind it. It's it's in TV show so you know it's a it's something I think took long enough that we actually dedicated a show to actually talk about it because it is a it is a force to be reckoned with and it is a catalyst with inside of this industry that does move bourbon in in a forward direction.

1:30:00 So for you to give an outro because I think you've got a few different places that you you know, you podcasts you got a magazine or something to say. Yeah. And also in this episode of the podcast, in my above the char I said I was going to San Francisco. I am not.

1:30:17 I am not going to do to the coronavirus that said you can find me on the podcast world just I interview musicians and drink whiskey with them. I've got some fun names coming up. Got David Byrne from the talking heads and cloud from Slipknot coming up. So make sure you're tuning into that just just like you search for pursuit just search for Fred minich show and then got a magazine bourbon plus, man. next issue. We've got Jackie's icon on the cover and she she reveals a lot about her life and how she saved the old forest derive from being one of those highly prized

1:31:00 products. So if you want to learn a little bit about the pricing strategies at Brown Forman at least Jackie's icons a big part of that, so make sure you're subscribing that go to bourbon plus calm and, you know, just social media, everything else just my name, Fred. Alright, Fred, appreciate it, man. And thank you all for for joining in. Thank you everybody that was in the chat as well. A lot of great comments, a lot of great questions that that came in that really helped fuel this conversation. Make sure you follow bourbon pursuit on all the social media channels Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and tick tock, definitely. We're still there. Jordan, you you laugh people? The Tick Tock Hey, Jordan laughs Guess what? Breaking bourbon, sign up for Tick Tock.

1:31:40 Tick Tock for a long time. We just we just were in cognito until you know, Oh, see.

1:31:46 It's it's starting to happen. I still haven't signed up, but I'm gonna see. It's there. Don't Don't miss the train. All right. Thank you, everybody. We appreciate it. And we'll see you all next week. Cheers. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Traverse City Whiskey Co. Barrel Proof Rye Whiskey

Tue, 17 Mar 2020 10:30:36 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Traverse City Whiskey Co. Barrel Proof Rye Whiskey. This non-age stated rye is 115.8 proof and $90 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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244 - The Original Pioneers of Distilling with Brian Prewitt, Master Distiller of A. Smith Bowman

Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:30:37 GMT

Many of us have heard of A. Smith Bowman, which is owned by Sazerac, but we really don’t know much about them. We sit down with their Master Distiller, Brian Prewitt, to learn about the inner-workings of their operation and how the relationship with Sazerac works, as it pertains to the bourbon. With more than 20 years of brewing and distilling expertise, he tells us how he dialed in their stills to create a unique product and what the future entails for growth. We may or may not talk about gin for a few minutes as well. If you're a fan of A. Smith Bowman, let us know your favorite bottling in the comments.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
At Barrell Craft Spirits, they explore whiskey in an entirely new way. The team selects and blends barrels of whiskey into something greater than the sum of its parts. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Texas.
How did you get into bourbon?
What has been your favorite spirit to work with?
Did your parents influence you to get into the alcohol industry?
Tell us the history of A. Smith Bowman.
Does it ever make you mad that Kentucky gets all the glory for bourbon?
What year did the operation start?
Tell us the history of Master Distillers there.
Is it hard to dial in flavor profiles?
Are you able to make your own imprint on the product?
What did you tweak during the process?
When did it become part of the Sazerac portfolio?
What resources did you gain from Sazerac?
Do you distill or does Buffalo Trace contract distill?
Is it aged in VA?
Are higher age releases sourced or made in house?
What is your capacity?
How many states are you available in?
Is there a flavor profile difference from Kentucky bourbon?
Tell us about your products.
What makes your gin unique?
Tell us about your single barrel program.
Where do you see the market in the future?
How has Virginia embraced you?
Do you have a lot of competition visit?
Has bourbon tourism grown in VA?
What are your plans for growth?

0:00 I love bourbon. But I'm not ready to restart my career and be distiller. I have a bachelor's degree, and I want to continue to use those skills in the whiskey industry. So check this out. The University of Louisville has an online distilled spirits business certificate. And this focuses on the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is perfect for anyone looking for a more professional development. And if you ever want to get your MBA, there certificate credits transfer into u of s online MBA program as elective hours. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit.

0:37 You know you have a whole line of beers and a whole line of wines and then of course I'll bring a lot of different whiskies and we have a good time on on the on the holidays. Yeah, those families have like a chili cook off, you'll have like a days off, like it's mine's way better than what you're making.

1:05 Hey everyone, it is Episode 244 of bourbon pursuit. I'm getting one of the hosts. And last week somebody asked me, Why didn't I talk about the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US on the podcast opening there, right? I totally Shut up. It was a huge missed because it was massive news. So yes, that is happening. And this will also be one of the major talking points for next week's bourbon Community Roundtable. So make sure you tune in for that, because it's likely going to be 100%. All About blends. All right onto the news. The audio is raising a glass to the women behind some of the most famous labels with the introduction of their crafts women project. The two new whiskies are going to be one as bullet Blender select crafted by bullet Blender Ebony major and Jane Walker created by johnnie Walker's master blender, Emma Walker. Both will be hitting the shelves this spring bullet blenders select number 001 will be a blend of

2:00 Three of the distilleries 10 high rye bourbon recipes bottled at 100 proof. Dr. Joe also announced a release of Jane Walker scotch, a 10 year blend featuring whiskey from Speyside. Jane Walker is crafted by Emma Walker who has the lion's share in most run of inventory. With over 10 million casks of aging and maturing whiskey and distilleries across Scotland. Bullet Blender select and Jane Walker will be hitting shelves in the coming months for a suggested retail price around $50 and $38 respectively. Pin hook bourbon has announced the arrival of their 2020 bohemian bourbon, the first bourbon release in almost 40 years. That was the stilt at historic castle and key pin contract is still the new bourbon at Castle and key, which is also what's known as old Taylor to craft their own custom mash bill of 75% corn, 10% rye and 15% malted barley, they blended just 100 barrels of this 34 month bourbon to create their high proof release, which clocks in at 114.5. It will share some of the

3:00 Same magenta wax color as last year's cash drink bourbon expression. The high proof bohemian bourbon will be arriving on shelves at April of 2020 per suggested retail price of around $50. In bourbon pursuit news since the beginning of 2020. We have already selected seven barrels from places like Buffalo Trace 79, and four roses. While they have eight more barrel selections to go in just the first half of this calendar year alone. We've got places like New riff, jack daniels bullet heaven Hill, and more. So if you want to be a part of this, head on over to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit, and not only can you help support the show, but you get some damn good bourbon in the process. And in more bourbon pursuit news, you know that you can find us on every podcast platform out there such as Apple podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Pandora, Google, and even places like YouTube, but now we're hitting the airwaves. Yes, airing on Wednesdays from nine to 10am. We will be in Bardstown, Kentucky, his radio station w

4:00 Artie with frequencies of 1320 am 97.1 Fm 94.9 fm and online at wb rt country.com. The first show is set to launch next week on March 18, of 2020. Now today on the podcast, we dig into a brand that we know about but don't really know about, and that's a Smith Bowman, which is owned by SAS rock and based out of Fredericksburg, Virginia, we sit down with their master distiller Brian Pruitt to learn more about the inner workings of their operations, and how the relationship with SAS rock and Buffalo Trace works as it pertains to the bourbon with more than 20 years of brewing and distilling expertise. He tells us how they dialed in their stills and is pushing out a unique product. We also talk about their capacity and what the future entails for growth as well. Plus, we may or may not talk about gin for a few minutes. All right. Also as a small apology, this podcast audio for this week was recorded over zoom and is the

5:00 Final podcasts at AIR using this platform all shows going forward or using new platforms that will enhance your listener experience. So thanks for sticking with us. It's time for the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

5:17 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrel craft spirits, we explore whiskey in an entirely new way. My team at barrel craft spirits, selects and blends barrels of whiskey into something greater than the sum of their parts. Use the store locator a barrel bourbon calm.

5:33 I'm Fred MiniK, and this is above the char. As I put the whiskey to my lips, I felt a tingle just throughout my palate. It started on the front and moved its way toward the back just dripping down the jaw line tickling the top and it's gonna surprise you where this whiskey came from. It was not from Kentucky, Tennessee or Indiana. This barrel proof bourbon was distilled

6:00 aged and bottled in Texas. That's right, Texas. Texas is on the move and they have been for some time. And I do believe that Texas bourbon will soon begin to rival Kentucky and competitions and with consumers from California to New York and from Alaska to Hawaii. Now this bourbon that I tasted that kind of wowed me was t x, Texas straight bourbon whiskey. It was 127.4 proof four years old barrel proof is on the label, obviously. And it's from Firestone and Robertson. I tasted this on my YouTube channel if you haven't go check that out. It's for my what's in the box segment where I open a box and taste whatever is in the box. But this this bourbon really was one that kind of made me think rethink my position on where Texas is. Now I've always thought Texas is a growing state and very powerful.

7:00 When it comes to whiskey, and I think the rise of Texas has been has been happening for some time, but in the last couple of years we have seen Texas distillers like iron root win major awards, we've seen balconies kind of like, you know, get on shelves all over all over the country and when pallets, especially those in the American single malt category, while garrison brothers has kind of dominated like this, like this landscape and built a cult following for itself. I think right now, Texas is primed to do things in American whiskey that we've not seen any other state be able to do. And there's a good chance as I go off to San Francisco to judge the world spirits awards, that we could see a Texas whiskey win a lot of gold. I'll say this. Texas has the formula. They have the formula to be able to compete with all the great distillers around the world. They have a consumer base that really is passionate

8:00 about anything from Texas I mean how you could you could slap Made in Texas on anything and I would sell out in Texas those people love their state and they have a lot of talent and they have the education there like people from that state who are in the distilling business have taken the time to go get the education that it requires to be good distillers they're also humble you don't see them slapping master distiller on there, or for the most part, you don't see them calling themselves master distillers without in their opinion earning it and I also don't think that you see a lot of like terribly bad products coming out of Texas. The one thing that's going to hold Texas back is its water, water. It has a it's it's it's not a resource in abundance in Texas. And this is something that I think that every whiskey state needs to be able to rely on. You need to rely on a lot of water, obviously, but keep your eye on Texas. Something's going on there. And if you if you haven't tasted this

9:00 yet make sure you go pick up a bottle that TX barrel proof bourbon. And if you followed me for a while you know how hard it is for me to give a compliment from Tech to Texas. After all, I was born and raised in Oklahoma, where we kind of rival Texas and a lot of ways. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook, just search for a name Fred medic. Again, that's Fred MiniK Am I in an IC k? We're going to my website Fred medic calm until next week. Cheers

9:36 Welcome back to a another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon Kinney and Ryan here today talking to one another master distiller we have never had on the show today but it is coming from a distillery. I've got one or two bottles downstairs. Love what they're doing really good things over there. But it is it's not Kentucky's backyard which is a little bit different for us from time to time.

10:00 Yeah typically well I'm surprised this is like one of the master stories we haven't had one so I'm excited like we haven't had him on yet I don't know what's taking so long it's probably my fault we just got it but you have to knock on the right door sometime but they do have a great product I don't know a ton about it so I'm really excited to kind of get their story and info by had some great single barrel picks from them from liquor barn around here so I know they're doing some good stuff and excited to see what the future and past present all the above for this distiller Yeah, absolutely, it's kind of gonna be a culmination of all those things because what we've seen at least around here in Kentucky is being able to finally get your hands on some of these bottles and now that it's got a unique bottle shape to it's kind of like this, this oval looking heart shaped kind of thing and it's it's really cool. It really stands out on the shelf and I think it's going to be good for our listeners to kind of learn more about the brand more about the people that are behind the brand as well because I think that's a good

11:00 What our audience really cares about, they want to know more about the stories of the people behind it. So yep, so let's stop talking and let's start asking.

11:07 So today on the show, we have Brian Pruitt. Brian is the master distiller at a Smith Bowman out of Virginia. So Brian, welcome to the show. Kenny Ryan, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Guys, so before we kind of dive into the history of Bowman and more about you know, you we always like to kick off the show and kind of think of like, what is it that got you into bourbon whiskey was there? Was there an early like, I mean, it's okay, because we talked to a lot of people and they're like, well, it started back when I was 12. And Grandpa said, you know, taking it but this so kind of talk about your first run and experience. Absolutely. So for me, it was a little bit different. I I started actually in school, I had no intentions of going into the alcohol beverage industry. I was in actually pre pre med and I had no

12:00 You know, I was in a class, literally looking for nerves or whatever it was on a cadaver. And I thought, this sucks. I hate this. I don't want to do this anymore. On a cadaver. Yeah, it was not fun. And I decided, Hey, you know what I really liked. I really like beer. Why don't I try and make beer. So I actually called up the local brewery which happened to be a large Anheuser Busch. And I was able to talk to the the master Brewer. You know, here I am this college kid. And he said, Yeah, come on down. I'll talk to you. I'll tell you how I got to where I was. And I went in and talked to him and, and he said, yeah, this is what I did. And this is the path I took. And so I next day went in and changed my major to food science, and did the whole food science thing Colorado State and then eventually went on to do the master brewers at UC Davis.

12:56 Started in the brewing industry. So I was working a lot of small craft breweries.

13:00 across Colorado and California. And you know after several years in the brewing industry, I decided I wanted to learn what beer became when it grew up. Now when it comes to see that's that's the fun part though you always get to start with beer before you make to the get to the spirits anyway Absolutely. A lot of people don't realize you know, basically what we do here is you know, for whiskies as you as you as you make a beer and then you're going to distill it after ferment, so I kind of really wanted to learn about that. So I I found that at the time I found a weaseled my way into the the wine industry, which had a very large distillery with it and was able to learn about, you know, under a master distiller and a master blender. They had probably a combined about 80 years worth of knowledge and I worked for them for well over a decade. And, you know, got to make all sorts of things got to make brandies and vodkas and gins and spend time in Mexico making tequila and Caribbean rooms.

14:00 And then of course whiskies and, but eventually I really wanted to get back to kind of my roots, which was small craft, you know, high quality spirits and that's what brought me to a Smith bone. So it's kind of a maybe a different route than some have taken versus, you know, just like am I, my father worked in the industry and I got in the industry and, you know, it's, I will say that all of my family is involved with the alcoholic beverage industry. I brother worked for breweries, my dad owns a winery, and I'm in booze. My sister is the only one that hasn't made it. She's a doctor. So you got it. She liked the nerves on the cadaver. It's a trail. Yeah, exactly. So it sounds like you've worked with a lot of spirits.

14:44 I know you're gonna say you want to work or whiskey is your favorite thing to work with the what's been one of your favorite spirits to work with. I absolutely love whiskey and I mean it came from, you know, the the brewing side and just seeing what you can do with

15:00 The grain the grain bill different yeasts and then taking that on and the maturation side

15:07 I think that's I think that's great now I don't discriminate against the spirits though I love them all. I love all sorts of spirits you know in the summer, sometimes it's nice to have a nice gin and tonic. Sometimes, you know, you need a nice brandy or rum drink when you know you're out. You have to have a boat drink, you know, out on the boat. You gotta have that rum drink. But of course, you know, nothing, nothing beats a nice nice single barrel bourbon. So absolutely see when I go in the boat, it's like it's the only time I let it slide is like you get the Bud Light limes. Or you have one of those kind of like the very fruity kind of forward kind of beers it's the only time it works is when you're on a boat. Well, it takes plenty of beer to make to make good bourbon so

15:49 absolutely well let slot

15:51 well cool. So that's good to see like it was there it kinda want to talk about your family life here a little bit. So you talked about your family all kind of being in the Alcohol Beverage

16:00 industry. Was there a,

16:03 you know, at least from your your parents side of it? Was there an influence that said like, hey, like this is this is a good route for you to go was that a an opportunity that you said you already kind of have experience in this? Yeah. Because my family was a part of it. Like was that an influential factor into it? No, I think it was more, you know, actually my father he kind of started the winery that he runs. He started in that in retirement. So that's kind of like he was retirement type thing. So it was all of us were kind of getting into the industry at all at the same time and we all just kind of I think we love the science aspect of it. We love the art aspect of it. You know, we just kind of all went different ways. And it was just one of those things that Yeah, we get we get together and we have some pretty crazy Christmases and things like that where you can, you know, you really get to bring out the full spread different I'll call it Tipples, you know you have a whole line of beers and a whole line of wines and then of course I'll bring a lot of different whiskeys in

17:00 We have a good time on on the on holidays. Yeah, those families have like a chili cook off, you'll have like a days off. Like, it's man's way there and what you're making.

17:11 So, it was kind of interesting. But yeah, we I mean, we definitely help each other out. And, you know, I'll get calls from guys all the time they'll say, Hey, I talked to your brother the other day and don't don't believe a word he said. Or hey, I was at your dad's place. I don't believe a word. He said. He doesn't know what he's talking about. So you give each other a hard time. And that's okay. I mean, it's family you have to give each other a hard time. Especially in the holidays. It's kind of kinda like the booze off we should probably we should make a bourbon pursuit booze off for our Christmas holiday party. It wouldn't last long my family that like every time I bring straight bourbon or Nate they're like, I can't believe you drink this. This is awful.

17:50 So let's you know before we start talking more about your job and everything like that, that you've gone with let's let's give a our listeners kind of a an understanding and background of really

18:00 What's the history at a Smith Bowman? Because I just realized before we were coming on here that is it is not Abraham It is actually a from Smith.

18:09 Yep, we're the experts.

18:11 School is so so a Smith Bowman is actually one of the oldest distilleries on the east coast. It was the oldest distiller in Virginia, started by Abraham Smith Bowman, and a lot of his family actually kind of has roots to the, you know, the pioneers of basically, during the Revolutionary War, discovering what is now current day Kentucky. So if you're in Louisville, and you go out to Bowman field,

18:38 that is actually part of the bone was discovered and named after one of the Bowman family, really, tours of Cedar Creek is as they were known and all of our current day products are all named after the bone like historical Bowman figures. But kind of getting to modern history of how Abraham started it. He was actually the great grandson.

19:00 of

19:02 Abraham Bowman or sorry, George Bowman. And he was actually in the distilling industry prior to prohibition. He ran a distillery in in New Orleans prior to prohibition and one of the largest ramen bourbon distilleries, Algiers point. And and then after, you know, prohibition, he happened to buy about 7400 acres. And he opened up a granary and, and, and cattle. And then he no of course, prohibition ends and 3334 is when an ended here in Virginia, and he decided, hey, you know, I already know this business quite well. I have all my own corn. I have all my own rye. Let's start making bourbon. And, you know, that's what he started doing. So, right in 3435, he started making bourbon. And His goal was basically straight, you know, granted glass we did everything from, like I said, growing the grain. we harvested our own trees and made our own barrels.

20:00 I mean, we did it all. And the whole point was to make, you know, high quality spirits. And, you know, we kind of continue on with that. That kind of mantra today. We're known for making Bourbons, of course, but we do other spirits as well. So that's this kind of a little bit of the history of it. We give it we give the complete history. If you ever make it down to Virginia, we'll give you the complete history. There we go. We'll do the 30 minute tutorial one of these days. That sounds good. Does it ever make you all mad that like Kentucky gets all the glory for bourbon when Virginia was like, the state before Kentucky? You're like, yeah, we have a lot. There's I will say a lot of people come in and they're very proud of their their Kentucky bourbon heritage and and, and we're proud of it as well, but we always like to remind them that Kentucky used to be part of Virginia, we say Well, we've been making bourbon here for a long time too. So it's kind of just curious about like the current operation like kind of like the year that really it started or is it still like been all running since 18, whatever. Well, so we started

21:00 Like I said, and 33 in Fairfax County, which is about just outside of Washington, DC area, and we moved it to their current location here in 1988. So we've been running here in this location since 88. And the reason we moved is because basically we sold off the family sold off the farm. And the the city of Reston, or that Fairfax County, which is well over a million people now just kind of grew around the distillery and they're, you know, having this distillery where literally, they were walking the cows in from the farm to feed off the slop down the middle of the road. They just didn't, they kind of didn't like that so much. So move to the distillery where we're at now, which is about 45 miles south of Washington DC. We're in this small town in Fredericksburg.

21:49 And it's you know, it's been it's been a great location for us. So we're right along the Rappahannock river and, and, you know, it's a great area for aging Bourbons, and when

22:00 Enjoy it here so far. Talk a little bit about like the the history of the master distiller title there as well. Are you the fourth the first of the new one? And do they don't have master distillers back now and to talk about that? Yeah, actually so there's been six master distillers here in the history of the company since the 30s. The first one was for about five years and then we had kind of one or two that only lasted about, you know, five to 10 years. And the previous master distiller was actually earth to master distillers ago was actually here for about 30 years he kind of took it from basically took over as master distiller in the 80s until almost 2011. And then the previous master distiller to me was Truman Cox, who came from Buffalo Trace actually, and he was here. I think he worked here for probably about three years, but he's only master distiller for a little over a year and a half. He sat down

23:00 Passed away very you know, very unexpectedly and I took over from him he had been hidden and gone for probably about six months when I took over so I came into you know into a building with you know, there hadn't been a master distiller for six months. So it was one of those things where you you hope that the previous master distillers and taking notes and you go in and you learn the skill and you find out what's going on and taste through the stock I know that's that's rough to do. Got a taste you're all the stock to find everything out somebody in Thank you for taking that sacrifice for us. We proud. I'll stop. That's okay. I'll do it again. I get it. I have to so but it was you know, it was just trying to come in and find out what the house flavors were, how the stills ran and and just taking it from there. So I've been in this role for six years now. So how long do how long do you think it takes to become comfortable with the existing setup and accounting?

24:00 Get those, you know, like basic flavor profiles you're looking for dialed in, it takes a little while it takes a you know, I think you have a good couple of months that you know, just tasting through all the stock, you know, just going through and seeing where everything is. So, you know, you're literally going out into the warehouse and you're saying, okay, you know, what's this one? We're okay, this is a year old, what's it tastes like? Okay, this is two years old, what's it tastes like? And then all the way up, you know, 1516 years, and you're trying to find out, hey, what are the flavor profiles that are out there in the different parts of the warehouse because you know, you, you don't have anybody to tell you that, you know, that historic. This is where I did this. And this is where I did this. And if I want this flavor I pulled out of this area of the warehouse, you just don't have that. So you know that that took a little while but you know, once once you get there, I think then it's tweaking it to make a little little changes right off the bat just to just to kind of make it your own style and and then kind of improve the product and

25:00 That's one of the things that we always want to do is, you know, that's, that's our logo or our motto here is pioneering spirit. So we're embracing our history, and just pushing the future. We're just wanting to improve our products every day. So we don't want to just sit back and go, yeah, that's okay. It could be better.

25:17 So, that's amazing, free rein to make your own imprint on it. So it's not just like, plug and play, like, this is the way we do it. Don't screw it up. No, absolutely. I mean, there there is, obviously you have an established brand and you don't want to if you have historic, you know, customers of that brand, you don't want to just change it willy nilly. You know, yeah, if you're gonna make changes, you want to make sure that for the better and, you know, you want to keep improving them, but, you know, if it's a change that does make it better, makes it taste better. You know, improves its, its overall appeal, then yeah, absolutely free rein. No one's good because, you know, one thing that we always talk about is how the

26:00 Entry just loves to hear about change, right? Yeah. Not really like it's always like, you know, let's, let's keep Let's stay the course Let's not really not shake things up too much or anything like that. So I guess the question that I kind of want to pose about, you know, when you started coming in, you're figuring out like, how do we dial or how do we tweak things? Can you recall like one of those things that you kind of had to tweak to kind of figure out what it is to kind of make Pruitt's own signature bourbon? Right. Well, I mean, one of the things that I, you know, I'm looking for, as the heads were coming off the still and I walked in, and I'm like, Alright, well, wait, what are you doing? Oh, we're making the cut. Like, not yet. Not yet. You got it. Wait, wait, wait, wait just a minute. And then you know, we do our heads cuts a little bit different and then eventually, you know, we're saying, okay, where's our ideal proof? Because, you know, we had some periods of time that I will say that, you know, the proof really kind of varied

26:56 quite a bit off the still and we tried to dial that in

27:00 And tried to really get consistency off the off the distillation process versus, you know, you know, just, hey, this is the way that we run it every single time.

27:09 We wanted to go in and say, Hey, each, each tank each fermenter each batch is different. So we're going to adjust our still to make sure that our flavor profile is consistent from distillation to distillation, so that you don't have this huge variation from batch to batch. You know, we wanted it, you know, there was there was just processes that you have to go in and say, Okay, this is how we want to run it. And just a little tweak here, a little tweak there. And, you know, a lot of these guys have been working in the industry for 30 years. And they kind of go Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense. You know, these are these are good things to do. So

27:46 I think we've been successful in that. So absolutely. And so I guess one of the things that maybe most people will know about is that it is all part of the the SAS rack portfolio. So, Buffalo Trace, all that sort

28:00 stuff as part you know, Smith Bowman as part of that kind of when did when that started happening when it became part of that portfolio. So it actually it's kind of interesting story because in the move for a Smith Bowman from Fairfax to the current location,

28:19 they had to take down all of the basically the entire distilleries shut it down for it, it took about two years to move the entire distillery. So they started partnering with what was at that time before it was called Buffalo Trace was ancient age. So they started partnering with them and doing the initial mash, even the the yeast and the mash bill and things like that, so that we can continue on producing and, and then basically, when you know, we kind of kept going in that direction, and in 2003 was actually one of the first distilleries that Sam's rack purchased from the Bowman family they purchased the distillery

29:00 2003 and it's now it's even, it's an even better situation. Because Yeah, we're able to, you know, we're all part of one, one company, and we can do all sorts of things work together. It's a great network. And we're all about, you know, making the absolute best products that we can, which is wonderful. What are some of the resources that I guess he gained from being with SAS direct versus just trying to do stuff on your own? Or is it like a big collaboration? I guess he's got Harland cellphone on the dial. He's got that. Well, yeah, we do have that, obviously. But, you know, things. Some of the benefits are, as you know, for example, barrels were really hard to come by a couple years ago, right? Well, luckily, we buy enough barrels, that we're able to say, Hey, you know, we're part of this bigger network, you know, can we can we get barrels whereas if you're a small guy, and you're only buying, you know, a couple thousand barrels a year, you may not necessarily make the list for some of the biggest

30:00 barrel producers, they say, Well, you know, our big barrel producer or big customers already have it, we don't have barrels for you. So Tough luck, which has been a benefit, you know, getting getting the distribution and sales and marketing side of a larger company. I mean, those just really work well. And it's a benefit, or for us, obviously, you know, because we, we do run ourselves as a kind of a separate entity, a small a small distillery. But we do have that, that lifeline. So to say, you know, that to help us out, we have a problem. You know, hey, we don't have analysis for this kind of stuff. And can we send it to your lab? And can you run it for us and, and they'll say, Yeah, absolutely, we can do that. You know, or, hey, I have trouble getting this kind of grain or this kind of wood. You know, Can Can somebody find it or and, you know, and the good the guys will help you out. So which is which is a great, great thing to have. It so I think you

31:00 You kind of sparked an idea in my head too, because one thing that I think the bourbon community really thought of for the longest time is like, Oh, well, Smith home and like all it is is just sourcing from Buffalo Trace. And it's not that at all. You just said like, Oh, we gave them the mash bill so they can start contract basically contract distilling for us at the time. So kind of talk about really is, is that still part of the current operation? Are they still distilling for you? Or is everything shifted back over to your place? We do, we do a combination of a couple of things. So we do use a

31:36 Nashville that is made for us. And actually, it's not it's not one two or a week, right.

31:44 Come on, you guys. You guys know that. We were a little bit we wouldn't be prodding for information. We're a little tight lipped about some of our recipes sometimes. No, it's all good. So it is a what we do is we actually have them

32:00 Do the fermentation for us do a primary distillation for us and we'll get the high wines here. And then we'll finish up the distillation on a lot of our bourbon products. So distillation, aging processing bottling but we also I mean we have full mash and cook capabilities here. So we'll do you know, just yesterday we were using a local bloody butcher corn,

32:25 you know, local rye and doing stuff on our our pilot still or our 500 gallon experimental still. So we have full capabilities here. We do a combination of both

32:39 is everything Ah, they're in Virginia or some aged in Frankfort. Okay, we have all this stuff that we're putting out has been aged in our facilities.

32:50 And so I mean, it's a I think there was it had to been a few years ago now there had been there have been some pretty high h2 releases that had come there limited edition sort of stuff that came

33:00 From the distillery I think like, in the rounds like 14 or 17 years old and stuff like that, was that still your all's product as well or kind of kind of get a little bit? Well, sometimes sometimes we'll go out there and depends on the product. Most of the really old stuff has been aging in our, in our, our sellers for quite some time or our warehouses for quite some time. Sometimes we'll find, I'll call them unique barrels that we use for certain products, and we'll bring them in an agent and blend them we're big on on blending a lot of product here. So we like a little small batch. And sometimes when we do Abraham's, we'll do some, we'll find some very neat stuff that doesn't work. But the majority of them have been almost primarily 100%. aged and produced here. Great. I mean, I'm already learning something right? Because like I said, from from a real whiskey geek background, most people kind of assume that oh, you know, part of the

34:00 Right portfolio, it's some of the stuff that's just could be the Buffalo Trace, basically mash bill coming in. But no, it's good to understand that there is there is this unique factor that is driving into it. And we had kind of touched about, you know, talked a little about the operation kind of talk about more along the lines of the size of what you're all able to do there on your own. And maybe even with combination of what's happening inside of Frankfort with in regards of how many barrels you filling per day, and so on and so forth.

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35:20 how many barrels you filling per day and so on and so forth? Well, and that's, that's unfortunately one of the few things that the they they asked me not to speak about too much. Okay. Production or production size, but I will say what we do in a day is or even a year is what some of our sister distilleries can do in a day. Right? You know, we, we were find ourselves very, very efficient, you know, are still able to distill it almost 10 barrels an hour on our 2000 gallon pot still. So we're moving pretty quick on that. But

36:00 We can we can barrel really quickly, you know, we can we can empty a cistern tank in a matter of you know, two to three hours. So we feel we're up there and in terms of all of our infrastructure is made for a large large distillery. But in terms of our production, we're what we would consider a micro distillery were very small. No promise no more, no more poking and prodding.

36:24 You talked about sastra helping you all get distribution in the States. How many states are you currently available in? Well, currently, we're I think we're around 40 states.

36:34 And we have distributed in the past to the UK, we do send some products to Japan as well. So it's I mean, we're out and about most of what we concentrate on though is of course, Virginia, the East Coast. Kentucky is a big market for us. Indiana is also a good market for us. So I mean, it's kind of if you think if you look at the map and you look at the you know, kind of the south or southeast states and

37:00 Mid Central States, it's really where we focus. But we do. I mean, of course, we have distribution in California, and we have some in Oregon and things like that. But for the most part, it's, it's mostly in the east. So I kind of want to like shift a little bit and kind of talk about back to kind of like the distillation really like the flavor profile that you all are really trying to dial in on, you know, most people. I think Ryan brought it up at the very beginning. You know, Kentucky's very proud, very, very proud of their bourbon. Absolutely. And they should. And so kind of talk about really, what is is I mean, is there a an overall flavor profile difference that is, you know, coming from you all because, you know, there's, there's, we always try to talk about limestone, filtered water. It's so great here in Kentucky, but most people if you listen to the show enough, we're like, okay, it's reverse osmosis everywhere. We can kind of sit there and like put a checkbox like that's really nothing important nowadays. So kind of talk about a different kind of flavor aspect that really, you're trying to get

38:00 With inside of your your bourbon versus what you can get off the shelf of any other Joe Schmo Kentucky bourbon out there. Well what we look for is we look for a lot of like baked apple and cherry notes in the distillate are easterly kind of produces that that kind of note. So we and we want that to be emphasized in the raw spirit. The white dog coming off is still

38:22 and we want it really clean. We want that nice corn, you know, we want that sweet corn a little bit of a hint of that rye coming through. But we don't want it to be spicy, we want it to be really super smooth. And then when we aged out, of course for the Bowman brothers, I want a little more of the spirits come through a little less of the barrel. So a little bit of the vanilla, a little bit of the kind of the, the oak tannins to come through with the emphasis on on the fruitiness and then we would go the like, say the john J. Because it's the single barrel we wanted to we want the barrel to stand out a little bit more. So we want a little more of that coconut and

39:00 Heavy Carnival notes we want you know that really toasty Oh, and then in the background, we want that nice smooth, you know, kind of baked Apple note.

39:12 I think I sound like a john j person because you said you said coconut he said like oh, like that's oh man you just pulled on my heartstrings right there whereas I like the fruity and softer notes though and you know people ask me which one is the best and I say well I you know I don't decide between the two and then we kind of do one in the middle which is you know, our our port finish so if you like a little bit sweeter notes we got a little bit more open to that one in terms of it gets kind of a

39:43 basically we're doing a finish on on port barrels, Ruby port barrels that we import from Portugal and we also use Virginia port barrels. And then we agent we finish it in a solera process. So we always blend all the barrels together at the end. French oak American oak

40:00 And it's all in one big huge oak tank at the end that we bought a lot of to get that kind of extra character. It gets some really nice fruit notes and some really nice oak notes. So kind of a combination of the two. So if I'm taking my notes correctly, we got we got a Smith Bowman we got john J. Bowman, we've got the port finish. Is there any other products that that I'm not that we haven't talked about yet? Yeah. So so we have we have as far as our Bourbons. We have our Bowman brothers bourbon, which is a small batch bourbon, we have the Isaac Bowman, which is a port finish. We have our john j, which is a single barrel. And then we have our Abraham, which is our experiments. So those can vary in Nashville or finish or anything like that. Then we of course do rum, gin, and vodka, and you have to do a cream record, of course a bourbon bourbon caramel Perea Hmm. Now, do those have the Bowman named to him as well with the gin and the vodkas? Yeah, the gin is actually called sunset Hey,

41:00 So it's named after our original farm. And the vodka is called Deep run, which is the name of the lake, which is right in front of the distillery. And George Bowman is our rum. And it's a Caribbean rum. And then Mary Hite who is the matriarch of the Bowman family. That's our that's our bourbon caramel cream. You didn't pull Harlan Wheatley and name it. Brian Pruitt. We I don't have that kind of pull, I guess. You know, I don't think they would look at it and they'd probably pronounce it wrong or they go I don't I don't want that stuff.

41:35 You're just humble.

41:37 I try to be that we have we have a you know, we really appreciate that people enjoy our brands and and we hope that they enjoy what we're putting out that's I mean, that's the whole goal is that I go in day in and day out and but you know, I I put my passion into what I'm doing and and i hope they enjoy it. So I want to talk about Kenny omega man. I want to talk about Jim

42:00 For a second just cuz a budget gym gym pursuit just because we've been going to a couple distilleries and they happen to be producing gin that day and so kind of you know putting in their different blends and their own botanical botanicals in it and stuff so talk about your gin and what kind of makes it unique and what do you like about it? Well we in and I kind of I didn't even mention the fact that we actually have five gyms out there right now so we do a lot of gyms Yeah, we didn't curious now. Yeah, we have our Sunset Hills which is kind of a call it a straight London dry style fairly, fairly simple in flavor profile, only about four different botanicals. But then we we actually do a line called the Tinker men's line

42:46 on the Tinker band, I guess. And we're tinkering with different styles, different display methods. We have a citrus Supreme, we have a spice which we're doing more of the brown spice characters and we have a balanced was called brighten

43:00 And then we actually made with local rye.

43:04 You know, we just not more than a half an hour from the distillery we did 100% rye base, rye gin. We called it rye expectations, we used rise of botanical too. So, you know, we we like to use that and you know, that's one of the ways when, when we we don't have we have some extra time on the still, it's really fun to get in there and you know, you can unlike bourbon where it takes you 710 1215 years to really see your product, turn around and and come up with a recipe and the next day and taste it you're like oh, yeah, okay, that was fun. So how do you incorporate these botanicals? Do you like throw them in like a tea bag and throw them in there? Or like how to how to or do you just throw them straight in there? How do you extract these different flavors? It kind of depends on the recipe, but we'll do a lot of times we'll do kind of the maturation in the pot. So we'll throw all the botanicals in the pot, but certain botanicals like for example if we're putting elderflower in there or you know

44:00 You know, some of the more floral aspects that we put into, into some of our gins, we'll actually put it in a gin basket, which is actually in the scheme, the vapor line of our still, and so it's vapor extracted. So we'll put certain things in like vanilla bean, or elderflower, or things like that, you know that we don't want to just sit there and boil and cook them. We want just the really nice top notes to come out. And so, and depending on the on the method we'll use, we'll use you know, sometimes a combination of the two. And we can even sometimes do extractions and then distill it. So it's just kind of depends on the gin. Could you do that with bourbon or whiskey and any type like, I guess not well 51% corn and then say you want to get certain fruity flavors or certain vanilla mandolins could you technically extract them from?

44:54 Well, technically, yes. Whether or not it could be legally called whiskey is a different different

45:00 story but

45:02 yeah, you could probably do that. I wouldn't put it past that. Maybe something like that has happened. So there's the prett

45:10 that's the Brit product. Then he's then he's fighting a battle with the TTB of like, what do we even classify this thing? Yes, everything gets killed then now becomes a DSS. Mm hmm. All right off the Jin tan. Let's say you got any more Jin Jin things going on? I just find it interesting because like you said, you can just go there and get the flavors right then and there versus having to wait. So I was always curious about it. Got it. You gotta have your vitamin D and vitamin t in the summer. So that's

45:36 exactly. So, uh, you know, one thing that we kind of talked about at the very top of the show, you know, Ryan said that, you know, the products that he tried were all single barrels. So kind of talk a little bit about the single barrel program that you do have there. You know, I've, I've made been made aware of it. At some point. We probably need to do our own single barrel there, too. And we'll get invited. Yeah, well, if we get invited, let's come out there. We'll we'll choose. Well, and we have we we

46:00 We kind of for a while because the john j is really what we do is single barrels and it's and it's a it's a well aged product.

46:08 It's anywhere from nine to 14 years typically is what will age that product in a single barrel. What we like to do there is you know, I've anything that really kind of goes out in our normal production runs, I want a specific flavor profile, I want that like I mentioned earlier, you know, that vanilla coconut and, and the high toasty notes. But sometimes you get some barrels that are really, really good. But don't meet the flavor profile of what you would expect on the shelf. So if you were to buy a j&j today, and then a couple weeks later go out and buy another one, and they didn't taste the same or similar. You might be a little bit upset and you may have loved it before and you didn't love the next one. So what we do is, you know, barrels that are slightly different barrels that maybe have a little more spice or maybe a little more fruit

47:00 Or maybe a little more vanilla. They're wonderful in their own right. We put those into, into a lot of our private URL selections is when we do those. So that's why, you know, some people have specific tastes that they're looking for, they're looking for more of an earthy, spicy, some have more of a, you know, like I said, a sweeter profile. And those are the ones that we we've done in the past and we've we've been pretty, pretty tight on barrels just because of the mean, just purely on the amount of we I don't think any of us expected the growth of single barrel Bourbons to take off like it has. And so we've been playing catch up, but hopefully we'll we'll have more and more of those barrels available in the future but there's there has been some absolutely spectacular ones that have come out recently. You know, some ones that you know, I put in my I call my spice rack, you know, if I if I have something that is really amazing doesn't fit the profile, john Jay, but maybe potentially, you know,

48:00 If I can use it for blending, like I mentioned blending into a neighbor Abraham down the road, you know, hey, I need a little more spice or I need a little more fruit and then I'll take these out of the spice rack. And occasionally they just sit up in the spice rack and I can't find a home for them. I'll let people taste them and if they like them they can take them home. See there's the sticker idea for the Bowman take despise Dr. Spice, right. So are you familiar with single barrel stickers out people are putting these gaudy you know, stickers on the back? Oh, yeah, absolutely. We do those for people. Absolutely. Well, what would you do for single barrel pick it up your choice? Oh, well, I have a couple of barrels up there that are really amazing. been sitting for a while. And

48:47 yeah, they're getting up there and proof I should probably pull them pretty soon. But you know, that kind of depends on the day, some days I like a little more, a little more spice in my my bourbon and other times. I like a really soft, open

49:00 Almost a weeded profile, so it just kind of depends on the day. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and put in a request now. Because if you go through and you find one that is like super coconut, it tastes like an Almond Joy. Just go ahead and earmark that one and be like, hold on, let me mark this down right now. Yes. As you're going through your sampling, yeah, sampling, put it on a post it note and be like, Alright, this is for the bourbon pursuit, guys. We'll send you some stickers you can throw on there. Absolutely.

49:28 Sure, they're really big and round and cover the whole back. What jerk edge cover we have. We'll do it. That sounds great. Well, we'll even we'll send you our handwriting too. So you can just like trace it on the on the barrelhead. So we just claim it. So the, you know, one of the things that we always like to kind of talk about is you know, you kind of talked about extra still time and kind of like what can we do create some experimentations do some crazy gins and stuff like that but we look at really what's happening into the the bourbon market and the bourbon world and one thing that you as a master distiller have to do get to

50:00 kind of look at the spreadsheet and start calculating like, what is what is this bourbon market? What is this boom going to look like in the next few years? What's is there going to be a bust? What's it going to look like? Where do you kind of see the market trending here? In the next three years, five years, decade, decade, two years, five years, I think it's gonna start slowing down a little bit. You know, it's just been growing. It's such fast pace. I think it will slow down just a little bit. But by that, I mean, instead of double digit growth, we're gonna have high single digit growth and type things and, and I don't see it stopping. You know, I don't I don't see a fall of whiskey and bourbon in particular, in the near future. I think it'll just kind of flatten out for a while, you know, it's we've had this huge spike. I think you're going to see you know, people, you know, ride for a long time. No one wanted to drink a rye and now all of a sudden rise popular again. So I think I'll see we'll see a little bit of that come up. I think

51:00 Gonna be healthy for the next few years? And probably the next 510 years, I think it'll be pretty healthy. At least we're counting on it. We're putting down the stock for that. So I hope I hope it continues that way. And I hope I'm right. So otherwise, you got a lot of stock. I'm gonna have to figure out what?

51:17 Well, we're in the market. Yeah. Well, as we'd like to drink whiskey, too, we'll be more than happy to help you just, you know, go through and sample every barrel that's out there. Yeah, talk about a Virginia and how they've kind of embraced you guys, you know, and hung their hat on you as like this is our distillery to kind of have that with the state or? Well, we do there's, you know, it's interesting in the last, you know, up until the 50s, were they really the only distillery in Virginia. And now, you know, over the past five years, just the distilling industry in Virginia has really taken off. We've gone from, you know, being 20 small distilleries in the state. Now, I think there's 70 in the state

52:00 But I think a lot of people still embrace the fact that you know, bourbon is one of the products and whiskey is one of the products that is made and has been made in Virginia for a long time. And there's a lot of people that really, really are putting out some great products and you know, and I think it's it's great that a lot of people look to a Smith Bowman and they go oh, yeah, okay, that's, you know, that's that's the model that we should follow for making a great bourbon or great whiskey in the state of Virginia. And I think a lot of people you know, a lot of people who have lived in this area for a long time they know us, and they know our products and you know of course they go to their football games and they they have their bottle a Smith Bowman and and you know that's that's our tradition. You know, we have guys a little semi, you know, I am 80 something years old and I've been drinking a Smith Bowman bourbon since you know, I was 20. So which is great to hear, you know, that

53:00 It's one of those legacy products that,

53:03 you know, you just don't find the history and a lot of the smaller distilleries, and I think that's a wonderful thing to be a part of that history. Absolutely. And I think, you know, you kind of you kind of struck something in my head when you started talking about olders. It went from, you know, 20 now to 70. Do you see a lot of like competition coming through your doors and saying, oh, let's go see what let's go see what Brian's up to over here. Let's see if we can take down a few few notes in our, in our Yeah, absolutely. I we had a lot of people that do that will have, you know, the local distiller will say, Hey, can I come up and walk through the distillery and spend some time with you? And I say, absolutely. Come walk through the distillery. We do tours every hour on the hour.

53:46 And we don't hide anything. And you can you can see exactly what we're doing. Now. We may not tell you exactly what we're doing. We may not tell you, you know, hey, this is the mash bill. This is that we're doing this. You can see what we're doing. And, you know, we're we're very

54:00 You know, we're supportive, we want to we really think that the industry has room to grow, and we want to support them. But we also, you know, I don't want the industry to go in such a way that people look out and they see the smaller distillers and go, Oh, they don't make anything good. You know, so that's why we really want to support and say, yeah, you know, you got to put out a good product. And if you can see, you want to come in and see how we're doing things. That's fine. I may not tell you a whole lot, but you're welcome to come in and walk around. So how's a bourbon tourism been in Virginia? Because like here, it's exploded. Have you guys seen that as well in Virginia? Well, for us, tourism is a little bit harder than it is, you know, a lot of people go to Kentucky and they go to Kentucky to go visit distilleries. For us. It's a little bit different. And we have you know, we're right in the middle of I'll call it historic, you know, where people are coming to see you know, civil war you know, we're the distillery site is actually is a site of a civil war about

55:00 battle. You know, there's a lot of historic sites as far as the Civil War love Revolutionary War. You know, George Washington was actually lived, you know, his boyhood home is literally across the river from the distillery. So a lot of people come for the history. And it's our our challenge is to get them to come in and visit the distillery. Now, I think the Virginia wine industry has done a great job of getting people to realize that there's wine in the state. And then of course, breweries have been doing pretty well as well.

55:32 So it's been a struggle for us as far as getting the visitors here. But we still you know, this last year was almost 30,000 people come through the distillery you know, obviously not hundreds of thousands of people that people will go to larger distilleries, but we're hoping that we can grow that and let people know that Yeah, we're a distillery that's been here for a long time. And we plan to be here for another 8590 years at least. So you got to figure out a way to get yourself on the hip.

56:00 trail over there. Yeah. Taking a break from the capitals and all the Yeah, Norton come down and yeah you go to the Capitol you go across the river you go see George Washington's house he grew up in then oh, there's this old distiller over here. Oh, and we get to drink. Absolutely and count me. Absolutely, absolutely that's that's our whole goal is how to get them getting you know, you're like, hey, yeah, that's that's a really nice monument there but come see a distillery Have a drink. Yeah, it's, I mean, that's an easy sell point for me to come in. Just say yeah, let's let's go, let's go do that. You can you can go see a mime and every single day if you wanted to, but so I guess, you know, we're coming to come down here to the end of this and I kind of want to get a little bit more information about really, where do you kind of see is is there expansion? is there is there ideas of like how, how much more bigger can is going to get in regards of like what you all are trying to do in regards to growth or anything like that? Yeah, well, right now we're actually in the in the midst of an expansion. You know, we're

57:00 We're adding tanks. We've added just in the past probably going to say about a month, we've added about 11 tanks to our production. We're hoping to add to our bottling line here pretty soon to be able to pick up production. Because we really want to you know, we're we're coming up some of the moves that we made a couple of years ago when I came in five, six years ago was to increase some of our small batch production and increase some of our j&j and things like that. And those those are kind of coming into fruition now and we're hoping to expand and make more that bourbon available. And but I don't think we ever really have any ideas. We don't want to become this huge, multi million case distillery. We want to be focused on making the absolute best products that we can you know, the best bourbon that we can find our best bourbon that we can produce. And, you know, the best, the best Jan's best vodkas, best rums, we want to absolutely make great products. And if we grow to be, you know, a large

58:00 Larger regional size. Great. But that's not really our focus. Our focus is to make a great product. And Sazerac supports that vision. They're not like, they're not like, yeah, that sounds great. We want to crank out as much juice as possible, I'm sure. Yeah, no, absolutely. They absolutely under present sport, making the best product that we can make. Very cool. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and shout out to Matthew, who is here on the chat. He just said thanks for joining in Brian. It was so so great to actually learn about a brand that's flying under the radar for a lot of the bourbon geeks out there because like I said, For myself, you know, learning more about the mash bill and really how the operation kind of functions and you know, knowing that you're single girls are nine to 14 years old, like that's, that's got some age on it for evil. I mean, for even most of the NASDAQ portfolio when you're looking at the the Weller antiques, you're looking at six years old, maybe seven, something like that. So seeing of of what's coming out.

59:00 Virginia I can't wait to get my hands on some more of those bottles that's for sure. Yeah, yeah we'll be sending them your way

59:08 you got it you're marking those barrels yeah go your mouth go your mark that barrel I got my credit card we're ready to start swiping. Okay. But Brian thank you again for coming on the show today you know giving us some more information about a Smith Bowman the history sort of your history and how you kind of cut your teeth in the industry and kind of your family life to think it'd be fun to get your get your whole family on here one day and kind of see you all kind of like go back and forth if there's any of that

59:35 would definitely be interesting.

59:39 So, last way to kind of give a shout out so if people want to know more about you or they want to visit the distillery, where do they go and do that

59:48 know more about us or visit the distillery go ahead and go to a Smith Bowman calm that's the best way to find us and any information about us. We're on Twitter and Instagram as well but you can get all that from the

1:00:00 From the website there you go and ride the coattails on their Virginia history trail and stop over there and yeah and then go and get yourself a nice bottle of basement Bowman to take over john j Bowman i think i think the john Jay Lee's fit my flavor profile Absolutely. You never know you can come in and try them all next time you're in the area. Okay, so so yeah

1:00:24 so make sure everybody that you are you know you check out their website make sure you go to bourbon pursuit calm. We've got links on there for all the episodes that we've had. If you want to know more about any of the the the sass rack portfolio, you can kind of check out some of our past episodes we've done there too. If you want to follow us, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, we're all over the place there.

1:00:45 Yeah, and then also thank you to everybody that is a Patreon supporter that was joining us watching this show live as it happened on YouTube. Just again, one of those Perks of Being able to watch this live before it actually goes out on air. So frankly, close it out. Yep.

1:01:00 Sure, Brian, thanks, man, that was a very interesting, great, you know, like you said the bourbon has been crazy growth. And we're kind of have blinders on, you know, we have these Kentucky brands, you know, things that we're used to and like, we focus on those, but then you forget that there's these guys like you all doing such great things. And like it's flying under the radar and

1:01:22 with the flavors you were talking about, like, I think, Kenny and I might run out and go get some bottles after this. I just want to find some more coconut. Yeah, the coconut and oak and all that. Yeah, but uh, no. Appreciate your time, man is a cool story. And I want to come to your holiday party.

1:01:37 booze wars. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'll put the invitation out next time. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. So yeah, if anyone has any show suggestions, comments, feedback, let us know. We're always here to serve you guys. You know, bring the audio to you. So we'll see y'all next time. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Elijah Craig Rye

Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:30:43 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Elijah Craig Rye. This non-age stated rye is 94 proof and $29.99 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

243 - Finding Your Bourbon People with Jeremy Mandel

Thu, 05 Mar 2020 10:30:44 GMT

Do you find yourself talking to the same people about bourbon every day and realize you talk to them more than your best friends? In fact, maybe they are your new best friends. We're all in that situation now and that's what today's episode is all about. Bourbon has a magical element that seems to bring people together across every demographic to share a common bond. Perhaps you're getting started and want to figure out, how do you find your bourbon people? We sit down with Jeremy Mandel, he's an admin and founder of a few online communities and one of our Patreon supporters. We go through what it takes to find connections with other like minded individuals that can be done online with people around the world or perhaps in your own backyard with meet-up groups, bourbon societies, and much more. You'll come away at the end of this realizing you probably followed some of these same steps without realizing it.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about money.
How did you get into bourbon?
What was your introduction to the online bourbon communities?
Do you ever have events with your bourbon friends?
Do certain groups create more bonds than others?
What about your local society?
Do you think raffle groups encourage camaraderie?
What did you think of the Bob Dylan whiskey?
Would you rather go to someone's house to drink bourbon or a bar?
Can these bourbon networks get bigger?
How can people find a bourbon community?
What relationships have gotten you a really good bottle of bourbon?

0:00 Are you interested in pairing your expertise on the distilling process with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you need to check out the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program that can be completed in as little as six courses. The program is taught by both UVL business faculty and corporate fellows. So you are getting real experience from experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. We're talking leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory, jack daniels and more. get enrolled to this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit.

0:39 My dad's famous line is nothing I said is on Episode One is if you're if you're drinking beer, you're watching the party. If you're drinking bourbon, you are the party

1:01 This is Episode 243 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of your hosts. And how about some pursuit series news. Now, we don't want to use this as a self serving platform. But lots of people want updates on what's happening. So here's the latest. Last week, Ryan and I visit our barrel broker where we get to do what's sort of unusual in the bulk source market, where we get to actually hand select every barrel. Now, we've talked about this before, and you're going to hear about it more, but this time we tasted through 22 barrels and wound up choosing three barrels of 10 year Tennessee bourbon, and then we also selected two barrels of a special ride. We've got a few months until the Ryobi bottled, but this stuff blew our minds at only four years old, because it had such fruity and bubblegum flavors that I think it's gonna take everybody by surprise. We've also purchased four more barrels from Finger Lakes distilling, and we'll be releasing more of those relatively soon. We've got other things in the works as well. And you can get all those updates for upcoming barrels in our Patreon community.

2:00 Lastly, we have finally touched down in Georgia and more specifically in Atlanta, where there are select retailers with limited amounts of Episode 21 and it tastes just like candied pecans. Next week we have two more barrels going up for sale to our Patreon community first before they are released to the general public. And one of these barrels is our first ever 15 year old bourbon release. It might just be one of my favorites because you know, I love that oak. Alright, let's get on with the industry news. Right now Corona virus is on everyone's radar and we all know the travel industry is hurting because events held worldwide are being canceled. But what does that mean for the spirits industry? Chinese consumers are really tailored more to scotch and cognac and buys you where it's going to be hit hardest. biagio has already cut its full year 2020 profit forecast by up to 260 million as bars and restaurants and Greater China remain empty. beams and Tory said that the coronavirus situation is

3:00 Creating challenges in key Asian markets and its 2019 full year results. For no record anticipates the outbreak will have a severe impact on its China and travel retail business and cut its guidance for organic growth in profit from reoccurring operations for fiscal 2022, two to 4% from its previous expectations of five to 7%. In response to the industry demand for greater clarity during global threats, I Ws our drinks market analysis, which is the leading authority on data and intelligence on the global beverage alcohol market has revealed plans to launch the AWS our Corona virus risk assessment model, also known as cram. The tool will quantify and forecast the impact of key global events, giving industry leaders data driven insights and situational forecasts to navigate the situation and manage risks. To commemorate the celebration of its hundred and 50th anniversary pulled forcers opening the first ever whiskey row retreat. It's going to be a huge

4:00 immersive bourbon apartment experience. one lucky winner and a guests will be invited to stay at whiskey row retreat during National bourbon day on June 14, and the entire guest experience at the whiskey row retreat will center around unprecedented access to the production of the bourbon, the brand and the people behind old forester. The contest winner and a guest will be invited to partake in special activities at the old forcer distilling company, including experiencing the process of creating a barrel. Joining Jackie's I can in a single barrel selection and custom cocktail classes, such as learning how to make the brain signature perfect old fashioned to enter the whiskey row retreat contest fans 21 and older can enter by sharing an essay on why they think they should be chosen to win and stay at the whiskey row retreat. And you can do this by visiting old forester.com slash whiskey row retreat. The entry for deadline is April 20 of 2024 roses small batch select is expanding beyond

5:00 2019 initial launch of only being in five states. new markets were small batch select will be available in the coming months include Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee, Washington and Wisconsin.

5:18 independent state company and the Boswell family who you might remember Brad Boswell the CEO back on episode 185 are giving $1 million to the university Kentucky to further spirits research at the James been Institute for Kentucky spirits. The gift will fund a new maturation facility that will allow the dean Institute to experiment with barrel aging spirits produced in its research distillery, the only one of its kind in the United States. This new warehouse will have a 600 barrel capacity and become an interactive classroom and laboratory where students and scientists can tackle real life industry issues. Do you find yourself talking to the same people every day about bourbon and real life?

6:00 You talked to them more than maybe some of your best friends from school. think we're all in that same situation now. And that's what today's episode is all about. bourbon has a magical element to it that seems to bring people together across every demographic and share a common bond. But perhaps you're getting started and you want to figure out how do you find your bourbon people. We sit down with Jeremy Mendell, he's an admin and founder of a few Facebook communities. And he's also one of our Patreon supporters. We go through what it takes to find connections with other like minded individuals that can be done either online with people around the world, or perhaps it's in your own backyard with meetup groups, urban societies, and much more. You'll come away at the end of this realizing you've probably followed some of these same steps already without even realizing it. And hey, if you want to be a part of another community, join us on Patreon where you're 700 plus members strong and growing every single week. As a final reminder, we are doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey and we want to know more

7:00 More about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare and I promise it's only 30 seconds, please visit bourbon pursuit calm slash 2020 survey. Alright, it's time for the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

7:18 It's Joe from barrel bourbon, myself and our master distiller a triple stimpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel and make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Next time ask your bartender for barrel bourbon.

7:33 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char money. Oh, we talked about it. It's the root of all evil. And we wish we had more of it and people tell themselves that money can't buy you happiness. Well, you know, money is very, very, very important. And right now you have distillers from Washington to Florida and from Texas to South Dakota.

8:00 All scrambling going to banks, venture capitalists, private investors, Angel share people, friends, family. Hell, you might even just randomly run into someone on the airport, you're hitting them up for money. There are so many people looking for money in this space. And people just don't understand whiskey. I sometimes wonder what the world would look like in the distilling business. If mainstream businesses understood what this world encompassed, that in fact that bourbon is its own audience. bourbon is as big as a sports team or NFL franchise or even a sports league. It's bigger than a lot of TV shows. And if people would actually just kind of wake up and look past the alcohol aspect. We may be hearing about brands that you never even knew about, but because somebody can't get the money

9:00 That they need to start the distillery of their dreams. We're not going to hear about them.

9:06 And there are people like Cedar Ridge and Iowa where the farmer, the winemaker, he leverages his house, everything that he owns his land. I mean, I think he might even leveraged a kid near to just to start the brand Cedar Ridge. He kept believing in it, he kept believing in it, and he kept believing it and then finally he got a big big break. And that is just it. Everybody needs a break in this business. But it all starts with the money. And I'll be damned if there's just not enough of it to go around.

9:43 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, did you know that I have got a new podcast. It's in the music interview section. So help me become the number one music interview podcast on Apple. Go over there and search for my name the Fred MiniK show.

10:00 Then we'll have the number one bourbon podcast and the number one music interview podcast. Go check it out. Until next week, cheers.

10:11 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney, Ryan and Fred here talking about a fun cultural topic. You know, this is, this is something that even this podcast wouldn't have started if it wasn't for the type of pot or the topic that we are actually talking about tonight. And it's kind of really, I guess, you could say it's a way that you you branch out a little bit you end up growing, we've all had friends that we get through school and college or work or anything like that, and then you end up finding Oh, I can find brend friends and other things such as hobbies, and, and really, bourbon is one of those things that we talked about all the time. It's what brings people together. And that's kind of what brought this podcast together. I mean, Ryan was

11:00 Really on the idea of Hey, let's start a bourbon podcasts. And I think I know this guy named Kenny. Yeah, we weren't really friends. And so we were we were we were acquaintances at that point Really? Well, we, ironically enough, we both liked etn. Before, before bourbon, so that was the introduction. And then the bourbon kind of brought us together. But yes, bourbon has definitely like, I'm amazed at how many people and how vast my network has become just because of bourbon. And like, it's crazy. Like, it's just nuts. It's it's a cool, very cool thing, and very humbling thing. So yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. Because it's, I've been so blessed to meet so many fortunate people, Fred included.

11:42 Not just doing your yard. We're now friends.

11:46 I feel we were actually friends before that, too. Yep, exactly. So yeah. I feel good because we're rep Fred and I were you know, we're Facebook official friends. So I feel like I made it. Yeah. Good. Good to see everything that's happened in our person.

12:00 So wives and kind of grown since they're now and now we're going to the point where I think is there a day that goes by we all don't text each other.

12:09 I don't think there is actually. Yeah, so it's like it's like texts like part of our dinner as long frightened as text chain started like 6am Kenny challenges in about 10am

12:22 Yeah, you already get started way too early. I don't know how you do it. It's not my choice. Yeah, I got a five year old elbowing me in the back. Daddy Get up, gotta get out.

12:32 So our guests just chimed in there. So let's go ahead and introduce them and kind of really start talking about the meat of this subject. So tonight we're joined by Jeremy Mendell, Jeremy is a member of our Patreon community and came to us with this topic. So Jeremy, welcome to the show. Thank you guys. been listening to you forever. Really happy to be here. Hopefully we're making a dream come true. Tonight. We're on bourbon pursuit. Thanks for putting up with us all these years. For I can't even tell you how long

12:59 Yeah,

13:00 dum dum meet your idols

13:02 Yeah, it's terrible and you were laying

13:05 So Jeremy let's hear your kind of coming to age tale of bourbon. How did how did you really get into it was their first sipar some sort of introduction rolling up

13:17 I had a you know like I would imagine a lot of people do just in high school. I guess I shouldn't say that but I'm pretty sure it's common we've amassed even master distillers say they started yet but we had a little poker room with some friends and there was we would always try and get a bottle of something for our games and

13:38 we found because then it truly was finding we were fine. We found a bottle with a nice little horse on the top and it was around little ball and

13:48 my goodness it was delicious.

13:51 So that was back when you let go into a store and buy some blends.

13:56 But that kind of kicked it off went through college.

14:00 Then,

14:01 probably two, three years after graduating college and went to the University of Arizona

14:08 was talking to a buddy of mine, Tori Levy, who was in my fantasy football league. He beat beat all of us. And when I sent him the money, he sent me a picture of him cracking a Pappy 15 and I had read about that, but I'd never had it or even knew anyone that could get it. So I said, How the heck did you get that thing?

14:33 And then he showed me oh my goodness, there is bourbon on the internet.

14:39 So it was just kind of a spiral from there.

14:43 But you know, from there, you meet a whole bunch of people, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, kind of create a little bourbon community and that's kind of how this whole series of cardboard boxes behind me came to be. Yeah, we're about to say that that kind of justifies your your level of music

15:00 But to this I think I think all of us have a room in the house or a closet of something that just has boxes of herbaceous ages cardboard boxes stacked with inside each other commitment so much as it's a level of cheapness.

15:17 I certainly don't want to pay $4 for a box. So my goodness. Yeah, yeah. Every time I get an Amazon package, I'm like, is this gonna be good for future use to ship something? Well, it gets it gets the point now where you can train your significant other when they understand what the right size boxes and they'll be like, honey, I save this for you. Yeah, my wife said, you know, this is the perfect box to get some of those little stupid bottles that you do with the stupid bottles. The two ounce the two ounce stamp. Gotcha. Yeah, little bit. It's perfect for your little stupid bottles.

15:54 She's supportive of the hobby. That's great. I'm supportive in that this is existing, but she

16:00 Certainly gives me crap all the time. Oh, yeah. Well, is it isn't that her job though? To give you a little shit? I think so. Yeah. Just join the club at that point. So you're fine.

16:11 So I guess let's go ahead and kind of talk about, you know, we can each share some of these stories of how we got introduced to it. And Fred, I don't know if we've ever heard your story, like kind of how were, you know, did did somebody introduce you to bourbon and sort of how did that that process? Yeah, I've man I was drinking bourbon. And

16:36 you know, I didn't actually drink in high school like that. So I was not, you know, the only times that I had drank in high school definitely was wasn't bourbon. He was smoking when I

16:48 was doing hard drugs. He's doing those Double Dragon drinks.

16:52 So when I went to college, I became a big, you know, beam drinker. And you

17:00 My first legal drink was you know, Jim being white and I remember going into the liquor store at that time and there there was like old Fitzgerald and well I mean think I've all I've thought about this a lot I wish I could travel back in time to Stillwater Oklahoma when I was you know just turning 21 which would have been 2000 and and just like clean those shelves out because they were loaded loaded with stuff that now I would you know, have spent four or 500 to 1200 dollars on so it's

17:34 I definitely was not drinking well, but when I when I was drinking

17:38 bourbon it was always Jim Beam white label if I was like, you know, wanting to you know, live high on the hog and getting Maker's Mark, but, but who's who's the person introduced you like you did? Did you actually just go into the store and say like, I think I feel like drinking or you ever been to a fraternity party? I have. Yeah. So who gave me the bottle

18:00 I don't know.

18:02 You know, I will say probably the moment that I fell in love with it, it was it was probably on a fraternity bus on our way to New Orleans from Baton Rouge. We were there for like some kind of convention. Man, it just it just felt it was very tasty. I love the taste of it. And then I found myself like ordering jack or Jim

18:30 instead of beer, or sometimes both. And you know at that at that young age, and then when I was when I was in Iraq, I you know, we couldn't

18:42 you know, was against the our general orders to, to have,

18:47 you know, to have liquor or have anything, so I would have friends, you know, pour out Listerine bottles and fill it with Jim Beam or jack daniels at the time and

19:00 Those are your stupid bottles. Yeah.

19:03 If you were if you were, if you compare like a traditional bottle of Listerine next to like beam or jack, they had the same color. So the MPs couldn't, couldn't crack it open, you know, because they couldn't, you know, they wouldn't necessarily, you know, think to look at that but so that's how I used to do it. And I actually did have there was a unit

19:27 that would go into like northern Iraq in our bill and they would buy cases of liquor and occasionally like the South African contingent that was there, they would break it out. So like bourbon is, in my adult life. bourbon has always played a role in terms of like, where I really fell in love with it. Be honest with you is with my wife, you know, because she's, she's a big bourbon drinker, like you know, and I started, you know, I was just drinking it was I appreciating it prior to her

20:00 Probably not. But I don't think I appreciated many things until my wife. No. I want to make sure she gets that sound bite. What about you, Ryan? We're I think we talked I think this is actually episode one right episode. One of verbiage suit is where we talked about ours, but let's go ahead and rehash yours. Yeah, so thinking back down memory lane. It was in Bardstown As you may or may not know where I'm from, but no. Yeah, definitely for that, man. That's all I know. You get like bourbon. royalty DNA in your blood. Yes, analog connections. Yes. Throughout. But now the first time it was like at a field party and my buddy, his name's Pikey. I know weird name. But uh, he had Evan Williams and coke.

20:50 And I was like, let me try that it was first time I kind of return I was like, all this tastes like sweet nectar. Like this is this is amazing. And then from there, yeah, just

21:00 drank so much Jim Beam white label in college. Oh my god, I can't even drink it now. Like, I can't even look at it, because it brings back so many bad memories, but good memories, but uh, I didn't really like start getting serious till I don't know, after college. I mean, my dad does a lot of work for the bourbon industry. He's a machinist. So he does tool and our pair and I would deliver parts to him or for him to the different distilleries. And I remember you know, just seeing the bottles they would always give them stuff and then I would take it to

21:35 and so I vividly remember taking like some alijah correct 20 ones and Noah Mills 15th and taking them to college parties and like, totally mixing them with coke or ginger ale and like, just had no clue what you know what I had, and so, yeah, just kind of progressed from there and then like, really start appreciating when I went I went to school at Rutgers and New Jersey. Kind of

22:00 Nobody there really knew it. So I kind of preached the gospel of there and kind of started really diving into it.

22:09 And then I met Kenny and then found out there's this whole world of collecting and trading and flipping and collecting, you know, all this stuff and then so you go down that rabbit hole and then I'm like, why don't we? I can't just like have the hobby I gotta start a business about it. You

22:25 can't just leisurely enjoy bourbon with friends. So like, let's start a podcast but yeah, it's, it's and now you know, I I'm no one's a stranger to me. And so like, I've just reached out to anybody that has the same interested in me. I'm not afraid to talk to them and reach out to them. So

22:45 I've met so many people that enjoy bourbon and it's been like, crazy and it's cool because I'm from there. And when I grew up, no one gave a shit about it. And now everybody gives a shit about it. And you know, just seeing the towel.

23:00 flourish and stuff it's pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely we'll touch more on like meeting new people and stuff with instead of bourbon all kind of recap mine I know I've probably said it before. I have the same sort of coming of age tale is Fred over there. So I joined a fraternity and university Kentucky's campus. And I mean, I remember back it was $10 for a 24 pack of Natty light and being an undergrad. Yeah, you always just get you have 10 bucks you give it to one of the juniors or seniors within the fraternity they'd run out you come back and like that's your that's your that's your drinking for the evening. However, I remember hanging out with some of the older upperclassmen in there, they were all sitting around drinking bourbon and coke and back then, our drink of choice was Kentucky tavern. That was that was our go to. And that was kind of like my first introduction that they were actually known as an attorney was actually known as one of the biggest bourbon drinking fraternities on campus. I don't know if that was a good thing or bad thing at the time.

24:00 Time, but because everybody knows what happens if you get a little too bourbon drunk when you're a little young and stupid, but back then it was, it was a it was a way to kind of get an introduction to it. So of course mixing the bourbon and coke. However, at the time, you know, this was also a time when you're drinking, not to sit there and enjoy your drinking to consume and have a good time. And, you know, all that aside, you don't feel as bloated when you have a few bourbon and cokes after you do try to have like eight to 10 eight to 1012 beers so it actually made you feel a little bit better going throughout the night. And now you're interrupting my dad's famous line is and I think I said this on Episode One is if you're if you're drinking beer, you're watching the party. If you're drinking bourbon You are the party.

24:50 So I've always loved that line. But anyways, so let's go on to the next t shirt. Yeah.

24:56 But yeah, I mean that's that's sort of how it started for me And ever since I did that.

25:00 Like I was always one person that was kind of like preaching like always do bourbon and cokes. During college, it just seemed like the easiest way to do it. And not only that is me and my roommate at the time we became social chairs. Social chair is a nice word to say party planner for back in college in the fraternity days. And so our biggest Actually, this is what I truly miss about college is that your biggest worry is where we're going to party on Thursday and Friday night. And that's that's what you had to set up. And so back then UK was a very dry campus and you couldn't have any alcohol with inside the fraternity houses at all. So our goal was to say how do we have house parties and still serve liquor? And so what we did is we get we got those massive Gatorade jugs that you see on the sidelines of football stadiums, and we filled those and it was one handle a Kentucky Tavern two to two liters of diet coke and so

26:00 Everybody drink bourbon and coke at the parties. And that's how we we continued that to flourish for a while, but after after college then is kind of when the appreciation started. I didn't stop drinking bourbon, it was still bourbon and cokes and that's where the progression starts where you start getting rid of the coke, you start getting rid of the ice and you start learning to drink it neat. Old forester became a staple for me. Every once in a while splurging on small batch. You know, Fred, you talked about going back to the store and, and thinking of all those bottles that you could have had my God even I went to the liquor store and when I was there buying for parties, I would buy, probably, gosh 10 cases of six or 1.75 liters of Kentucky Tavern every single week. I don't think I even looked at any other bottles on the shelves. I always looked at figure out where could I get the cheapest premiere like it's overpriced.

26:57 I mean, that was didn't really know any better at the time.

27:00 And be honest even when I even after college, I didn't really know any better either. I was drinking for as a small batch I didn't know limited limited editions even existed until I was working at a company and I there's a guy that worked there and we talked about bourbon all the time. You know, we we'd sit there and talk about bottles we come together and and he's the one introduced me to limited editions. And this was 2012, late, early 2013 timeframe, something like that. And he's like, Hey, I got a few extra things. I'll just sell them to you at cost because I'm just overflowing and and so he sold me a four roses hundred and 25th anniversary, an old rip squat bottle.

27:42 Jefferson's I think it was 21 maybe it was and they were all at retail at the time. I was just like, Oh gosh, like

27:54 80 bucks a bottle like you sure about this. And, and so that's that's kind of what got me on to that.

28:00 Train. And then of course, as as Jeremy said, you find out about online forums and then the whole world of different things start opening up to you if things that you never even knew existed. Yeah, and that's, I think that's really where the rabbit hole starts for most of us. And I think that's kind of where the conversation keeps going for a lot of us here because the online community is really where a lot of the relationships are built. It's also where a lot of relationships go to die and

28:30 let's be honest, there's a lot of butthurt that happens out there.

28:34 So feelings journals for the bourbon world, what are you talking about? Yeah, right. You mentioned one thing and then all of a sudden you get people either hating on your loving Yes. So Jeremy kind of talk about your introduction into like the the bourbon online communities. So my buddy Tory said, hey, yeah, I got this happy 15 years I finally found a good use for Facebook. So I

29:00 got invited to one of those deals. saw that, you know, my first love bourbon was was Blanton's. And I got on there and within five minutes

29:10 I saw somebody was selling a blends. It was dated in like 1988. And I didn't realize that whiskey existed before I drank it.

29:22 So bought that 1988 Blanton's and still have about a quarter of it.

29:28 And really from there, it's sort of just went into a networking you can almost fall into this accidentally and I'm sure that you all his experiences are very similar.

29:38 But you know, you find some people that you've got good relationships with. And now I'm a part of a few groups that I really proud to be a part of, and it's been really cool. And you know, I've got a network, really across the country coast to coast and actually even out of the country, just from those stupid Facebook groups. Can you enlighten me

30:00 Major towns if you needed to sleep on someone's couch, he would do bourbon. I'm going to Florida for business on Friday and I am crashing in the spare bedroom of a bourbon friend that night. No way. It's awesome. We're going to be drinking. Well, have you met him before in person? Yes, a couple times. Actually, he and I have not picked a barrel together. But we got to take part and what to me is my favorite part about a lot of this stuff is the charity component.

30:30 And there was a guy in Florida who

30:34 had a really terrible cancer diagnosis and young guy about 21 years old 22 maybe. And without getting super deep in the details of it. I went down there last year because we raised him about 17 18,000 bucks. And I went down there to

30:54 to go with him to present the money to him and his family. And that was the first time that I cracked

31:00 His little No I didn't crash his place but we met that time.

31:03 Like here's a here's a check by the way Can I stay in your spare bedroom

31:11 This is actually the first time crashing his house but we have met before but that's that's always a lot of fun and of course you know my wife thinks it's ridiculous but you know we're in this city I gotta go see this guy.

31:25 So, but yeah, you get you get this network and I'm sure you guys are all the same in that regard you got kind of people all over the country that you know from random, you know, this guy helped me find this thing I was looking for. And of course, my my wife would say well, why are you looking for that in the first place? You have 200 something 300

31:47 but this sounds all too familiar.

31:50 Never heard that before, right? Yeah, but But yeah, it's you know, you form these communities. We've we've been able to do a lot of good.

31:59 We've been

32:00 able to do a lot of bad too but but it's a lot of fun and it's this whole kind of separate world that you get to be a part of all around this brown water stuff that we all like to bring

32:13 up good. I was gonna ask you know like you talked about like meeting up like with it with individuals but do you ever like, like throw get togethers where your your buddies that you've met online or whatever you guys go to a house or you go to a bar Do you all have like special events or anything like that? So nothing that's terribly scheduled but

32:36 one of the bourbon groups I'm in is called karma. And we did the first one was, it's kind of always centered around barrel pics. So about a summer of 2017 we all got together did a four roses pick and not Creek pick a couple other things that I'm not remembering right now. But you know, there was a good 3035 of us they got together. Remember, we all

33:00 Went to Haymarket one night and that was a blast. And it's all these people who I recognize from one single picture.

33:08 But it was really cool. So we we've done that a couple of buddies. We Ribeiro, the whole bunch of Nashville number one, I think it was from Buffalo Trace and we threw it up in a barrel at a buddy's farm in Tennessee. And we all got together about two months ago, to see if it sucked.

33:31 And fortunately, it didn't suck.

33:35 So we had a weekend at an Airbnb on a on a river or lake or somebody of water. And it's a it's a great time and so and those people end up becoming some of your best friends. It was really, really bizarre but actually ends up happening that way. Every time I go meet my bourbon or internet friends, my wife's like, what are you doing going to meet your internet friends, you're going to be on dateline one of these times.

34:00 The barrel pick that I went to my wife was convinced I was going to be raped and murdered. She was.

34:07 Yeah.

34:09 Oh, gosh, I think we all get that, that every once in a while I think my wife is getting a little bit more tuned to it. Because of course, you know, through our community through Patreon, we get emails all the time, and we try to make it when we can have people saying, you know, we'd love to just come and meet up for a drink and, and sometimes we can make it happen and, and, and she's always kind of like, Alright, well just make sure you text me at the table in case you need.

34:33 Yeah, I remember one time I was going to meet with Kenny and doubled Patreon guys and I got the Uber and to me, it's like, text me as soon as you get there and like make sure as soon as you leave text me and I'm like, Okay, I'm promise I'm gonna make it home. They're not going to kill me. Or a tag team. We can we can take anybody. Yeah. But back to cut it. Go. Go ahead, Jeremy. I'll see you say you guys looked up so you could take them now. Yeah, Kenny's not.

34:59 Well,

35:01 I haven't worked out in a while you gotta he doesn't wire your wire sorry. Yeah, I am. So let's kind of back to the you know the community aspect of this. You know, you had mentioned karma. I mean, are you are you in in with other groups and stuff like that where you kind of find those ends? And I guess are there are there certain types of groups that create more bonds than others?

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36:37 What's up everyone? i'm john Henderson, your admin over at the bourbon pursuit Discord server. As a coordinator for the Christmas fundraisers held by the bourbon pursuit. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed. I couldn't be more proud of this community. One perk of joining the bourbon pursuit on Patreon is that you get access to real time chat with other members along with Kenny Ryan and Fred through discord from photo sharing and sample swaps to

37:00 events where ultra limited releases like willet bottles are exchange. There's always something going on. Right now over 300 members of the Patreon community have joined and are connecting over our passion for bourbon. If you're not on Patreon, now's a great time to join us and get involved with the community in a whole new way. Come check it out for yourself and be part of the behind the scenes chat photos and video calls. We'd like to have you join us on a live virtual board where we all discuss a pursuit series release just

37:28 are there certain types of groups that create more bonds than others? So community wise, I'm a part of two groups that really are my bourbon community, I would say. One is karma. That was a cost plus shit group which I'm sure we'll talk about what that is.

37:47 But essentially, it's, you know, I because of that I feel comfortable that if there's ever anything I want to try from some what's a good example? I'm up

38:00 Four roses, that four roses my top of the line, particularly the Oh, so recipe, and liquor barn had a Oh yeah, so barrel a month ago or so

38:13 I got two bottles over there. But I'm down in Texas and that's because of the connections I've made my cost call ship group karma.

38:21 That's been a great deal you meet all kinds of great people.

38:27 Then I'm also a part of a barrel picking group called 21 kings. And I've made a bunch of great connections there. I'm going actually I'm going to be up in Kentucky a couple weeks to pick a four roses barrel and willet ride barrel. And that's really it started more as a we want to be able to pick barrels and not share it among 200 people kind of thing. But you know, you make these connections with you. There's, it's really interesting. There's not a lot that I've experienced in the world that Bond's people together like picking a barrel of bourbon. Just

39:00 I don't know what the secret sauce in there I know what the sauces but

39:05 the common denominator. Yeah.

39:09 You pick a barrel of somebody, your pals,

39:14 you know, talk talk the whole thing through it's a painstakingly excellent process if you do it right. And I've been really lucky to get to do it a few times and I'm really excited to get to do it again here in a couple weeks. But it's been a really cool experience, you know, you get to get really, really good bourbon or rye or whatever it is you're picking, and you get to, you know, make connections with people that you wouldn't do, at least for me, certainly I never would have made those connections otherwise. Now I'm totally with you. And I guess that that also kind of thinks about you know, really where does the relationship start and how does it build and it I have the same things with with two other buddies that really

40:00 We we knew each or we didn't really know each other and then we've kind of found each other through bourbon and then their their personal lives. You start knowing about their children you know about their vacations, you know about you know, where they're buying a how their IRAs. Yeah, everything getting

40:19 better. I mean that's that's kind of like how it kind of blips like that where you it's just a really kind of snowballs where you kind of have this common foundation. And then from there, you start talking to them more than you did. The people that you went to school with years ago. And and they become something because it seems like bourbon is like an everyday thing. It's constantly changing and the people that care about it are always in tune with it. Yeah, absolutely. The you know,

40:47 it's really nice. You know, aside from just the personal connections, it's just great to have a network of fellow dorks that we can talk about that stuff with.

40:55 You know, there's I live in San Antonio, which is

41:00 You know, it's got a good bourbon community here, but it's sort of

41:04 from a maturity level. It really only became a big thing down here in the past three to six months.

41:12 So, you know, I always thought the Esquire bar had a really nice bourbon. So I guess choir is fantastic. And you know, they do the San Antonio cocktail conference down here. Yeah, I come every year was in the back of the room last time you did one. You can stay on this couch next time. Yeah, that's right. Do you mind? I mean, St. Anthony's expensive. Yeah, if you don't mind golden retriever sniffing around Yeah, you can always got a couch here.

41:40 But

41:42 there there's a few people here in there but like as compared to say like Houston with Houston's I mean, you guys know you guys had

41:51 the Houston bourbon society on a while back. That's been a big deal for a few years now.

41:57 So like, just as a

42:00 An example and I mean, no disrespect in saying this, but in the San Antonio group, the old Ezra seven year is a big damn deal right now.

42:09 And it's a good, it's an excellent drink. I really like it for what it is. But if you've been into the hobby really deeply for five plus years, then you know, you're you're drinking other stuff too.

42:24 So it's locally it's not as far down the line as say like a Houston or obviously anywhere in Kentucky,

42:33 which made the online community is a really great thing for us. And I guess another question with that is, are you seeing a lot of I mean, so you have your local society, and that's another place where a lot of people can go in and find some of those those bourbon connection those bourbon friends that live they live in your local area. Most of the time, you might find it on, you know, the the local page or the San Antonio page and then you see each other and me

43:00 And then all of a sudden things can happen through there. Yeah, the it's funny I'm hosting. And you know, Ryan, you joked about IRAs but that's

43:10 that's what I do for a living and I can't tell you how many times one of my bourbon friends would send me a text message or an emails like hey, do you mind if I ask you about this thing? So actually do know about a lot about the IRAs of some of my bourbon friends

43:23 have ESP gift but yeah, you end up I just right before we got on here, my buddy Josh Hayes gave me a call I talked to him for about a half hour and bourbon didn't come up.

43:40 So yeah, it's it's really cool to have connections like that.

43:44 You know, another thing that we kind of talked about earlier, too is and we'll kind of keep this train going with the kind of online community theme is we talked about raffles and and how these these kind of groups that are based off raffles, it also kind of creates a little bit of camaraderie.

44:00 Because you've got people that either they all try to play the same number and they fight each other for they get to know each other through there, or there's somebody that consistently win somebody else's raffle all the time. And so you have you have this also built into even though it's an expensive hobby, but it's something Yeah, we like in, in karma, my cost ship group the stupidest thing in the world, but when when mega ball went from 15 numbers to 17 or 19, or whatever the number is not 15 anymore. We were all very upset because that diluted our chances of winning stuff.

44:39 So we had to create our own weekly drawing, which is I got a bingo machine back there some somewhere did our own damn drawing because we didn't want to split a bottle 17 ways I want to split it 15 ways.

44:54 But yeah, you end up particularly in some of those secondary raffle sites you can lose just

45:00 an absurd amount of money if you don't really check yourself. Yeah, hey, Kenny for introducing me to raffles and risky whiskey in particular. Yeah, well, after a while, you figure, you know, that's the reason I'm doing it. I had to delete social media during the week. Thanks a lot.

45:17 But after a while, you end up as we were talking earlier, you kind of put planned but, you know, back to the, the community aspect of this, you know, we look at it as as an opportunity as as well to branch out, you know, my myself gotten to know people through these communities. And, and, you know, Jeremy, as you mentioned, you'll travel you go somewhere, you know, I've got connections now and a lot of states and so you can you can travel somewhere and know that you can confide in somebody and you can hang out and have a good time. You don't have to go and meet up at a bar somewhere to go and, and hang out. And ultimately, I don't know about you all, I'd actually rather go to somebody's house and dig into their collection.

46:00 Try something unique and I would just rather meet up at a bar. Well, it's funny we, my buddy Craig Lyman was here probably six months ago and there's three guys here locally they're a part of the karma group that we're that we're all a part of. And

46:18 we went out to a bar at all meet up and about halfway through my trying that Bob Dylan whiskey.

46:26 We all that stuff. I hate to break off on that, but what did you think of the Bob Dylan whiskey? I wasn't a tremendous fan of Oh, it's gross in it.

46:37 Like it like it all. It was bros about it. So there is a Okay, so it's, it's it's decal, and they got like the bottom of the barrel of the decal barrels. Because it's just it's like metallic. You know, there's like there's like this crazy like weird metallic note in there. Yeah, there was something to it that I had not tasted in bourbon.

47:00 before and I don't mean that in a good way.

47:03 And it inspired us we were

47:07 you Fred, you mentioned the Esquire we were down the road from the Esquire so maybe that was our problem.

47:13 But we all

47:15 that that drink inspired me to tell her because the best bar in San Antonio for whiskey is at each of our individual houses. Can we please just go there?

47:24 So that's what we did a lot better than the Bob Dylan whiskey. Yeah, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, but I had to ask your opinion on it. No, I don't totally remember where I was going with that. But you're absolutely right. That's up stuck by you, Fred. I mean, Fred, if you if you had enough connections now when you go somewhere that you'd rather not go to a bar and you'd rather go to somebody's house and dive into a you know, well, or gold vein or William Lou Weller, some old dusty Kentucky Tavern or Evan Williams or something like that. I've had you know, I've had some weird expense.

48:00 SS

48:03 please do share it out. Yeah, I've had some weird ones. But I'm you know it, I'll say that I still like to see what's going on in the town five years ago, I was like, I don't want to go to a whiskey bar because I have everything and I don't want to spend that kind of money. And I'd rather just kind of go hang out and see something else.

48:26 Now, I'm kind of going back to the, I feel like these, these bars are working hard to, you know, promote my culture, what I love, and you know, I gotta throw them a bone, I gotta, I gotta go in there and pay my respect to what they're doing. So that's kind of how I think of it now is like, I don't think of it as like, you know, look at them and their prices is just what they are if they're price gouging, you know, be very vocal about that, but

49:00 Often to like I end up correcting spelling errors and menus. I mean, for God's sake, why can't people spell will it correctly? It's true.

49:10 But I feel like I have, I have a purpose. And I'm supposed I need to be visiting these great temples that are bastions to whiskey. And you know, if they invite me and I'm going to go on a show, you know, check it out, but indeed do I like going to someone's house and going down in the basement and seeing seeing the collection? I mean, that's like to me that just doesn't get better than that. Now, what's weird is when like, you know, I come in the house.

49:45 And then the guys wife's down there, and I'm like, oh, oh.

49:53 And did you like she's like, who's this guy in the ass guy?

49:57 Oh, man, just ignore

50:00 Weird. So I didn't sleep on their couch.

50:04 Like I'm gonna go till now.

50:07 Yeah, well, I mean, it's, it's, it's fun to look at this and look at the relationships that you do build over time. Because it does seem like a lot of these hopefully will stand the test of time you never really know. Because it I don't know, maybe this is another kind of question is,

50:27 you know, as bourbon becomes more prolific and becomes more scarce and it's even harder to find these things and, and really, I don't know how much bigger these networks that people are creating right now can actually get,

50:42 you know, can they get bigger or you feel like, you know what, I don't have any more room in my life for new friends. We're just going to kind of keep it where it's at. For me and we I don't know if we actually call the episode this but you said the term finding your bourbon people

51:00 For me, selfishly, I found my bourbon people.

51:04 My biggest group of people that I care about is about 150 people and that's about as big as it needs to be and we're all having

51:13 like,

51:15 I don't know when this is going to air but right now there's this whole bsm bourbon secondary market thing going on Facebook, we couldn't care less. And it's been incredibly entertaining for us because I know because I've established my community. There's not really anything that's going to come out that if I really want to try it, I can't try it. from a store pick that comes out to got a buddy with a bottle of Red Hook ride that I'm going to see if I can't finagle announce it Oh yeah, battle. If you can find your your community then these groups of 50 some thousand people really don't matter all that much. So I guess another question is is so you found your people we've already decided three's enough. We're not bringing on a fourth co host

52:00 So we've got our people but how do you what would you say is is a good way for people to start getting introduced and sort of like find their you know, find their because you say they're missing connections they're getting to the gangs of the bourbon community. To me every every good bourbon connection I've come into is because somebody was doing something nice for somebody else.

52:25 You know, whether it's you know, there's last year almost city liquor here had a fantastic Elijah Craig pick, bought a bunch of it and help some friends that otherwise wouldn't have been able to get it.

52:38 Get it and they became good friends and that favor is I've been on the receiving end of that favor, you know, from different places all over the country.

52:50 And great bourbon connections for me rarely come from trying to price gouge somebody on a whatever store pic of

53:00 The month it is.

53:02 But if you, you know, just be cool with people and treat everyone this is you know, I guess cliche but

53:11 treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

53:15 You'll end up knowing some really cool folks and that's what's in that's what's happened to me. And that's the advice that I typically give people on between karma and 21 Kings I really don't need to know anybody else. Be able to know you guys

53:28 can be your friend.

53:31 Give me your card. Jeremy. One of my favorite things is like I get you know, when when I travel I do often like just kind of connect with someone who's a listener or reader just like or, you know, follows me on Instagram. I really do try to make an effort when I'm out to like, go hang out with people. And my favorite thing to do is like learn about their jobs. You know, because I find that we have

54:01 in people's pleat people's beliefs, because what I have found is is that bourbon is not. It doesn't attract as one race or one occupation or one political or religious belief. I mean, it attracts everybody. And to me that is what's so beautiful about this category is that I could be in a room with a staunch democrat and a staunch republican and they absolutely hate each other politically. But they'll just sit there and talk about how beautiful a new riff barrel pick is. And I'll talk about that now. They have three they might get into some, some fighting but once they cross the threshold, but it's kind of like, you know, Henry Clay, you know, the great Kentucky statesman, he said he wants said that bourbon was used to lubricate the wheels of justice.

54:59 It's like this

55:00 Great like, door opener for conversation? Well, I think even if you have the three drinks if you have committed commit each other from a place of respect, I mean, one of my, one of my good friends that I've met Andrew Goodman is a very far left person I am not.

55:17 And he lives in New York City. I was there for a business meeting. We went to one of the bars there. He bought me some vintage 17 rye, or no finish 21 rye.

55:30 And we talked politics for a good hour. And we walked out of there not hating each other and it's magic how that happens nowadays, you practically can't do it. Yeah. What problems you solve? I want to know down can

55:46 we solve the problem of how to get more Oh, yeah, so four roses, but we really solve any, any national issues, although that's become a national issue.

55:56 For sure. But you know, it's it's a conduit for

56:00 A really good conversation to like that, that I never would have had otherwise. And we continue to have it frequently. And then when it gets to be too,

56:08 too much we both saying I, you know, we don't want to fight with each other. Let's agree.

56:13 So I had kind of talked about it earlier, you know, with with my connection, pretty much my my mentor taught me that these are what limited edition releases are and he was able to, like I said, he gave me it at cost. So just to make sure that I'm not dealing with a story like this. I want you all to kind of talk about what are what are those relationships that you formed, that you've gotten, like a really, really good bottle of bourbon out of it just because of fostering relationship like that. I've had a lot. I've had a lot of guests.

56:48 And

56:51 the gentleman, you know, the gentleman passed away unfortunately he was his name is Dale Hamilton. And he

57:00 He was like the last. He was the guy who like got cola approvals for states of Weller. And he was like the last, you know, last guy from United Stiller's, the you know, for, you know, before they close, that's a Weller. And so he has this, you know, he had an incredible collection. And I helped him figure out what some things were, what some bottles meant. And, you know, we just and he came to my legend series at the Kentucky Derby Museum and we just we just became friends. I would visit him at Christmas. You know, he would come and we'd have lunch, he'd play with my kid. And he gave me a 1935 bottle of Weller.

57:46 And that was like a green Green Label blend. And it was fantastic. And the first time I opened it, I cracked it open with Tom Colicchio. From

58:00 Top Chef has just that right after my Top Chef appearance. And I wanted to celebrate with them and so I cracked it open with them. So I had like two, two really cool friends. You know that that that bottle kind of connected me to, you know, coming out of the gate strong here. Yes. Right Ryan, I think you should follow that. Well, I've had some great connections and relationships with people like Bill Thomas was kind enough to invite me to his house and stayed the night crashes. We didn't crash his couch. We had a room but but just his collection like we were at his bar and he's like, Guys, let's just go to my house. It's so much better here. And he had a green, you know, Green Label or not green or green bottle Van Winkle raw one early ditions it's one of the best bottles I've ever had. Drew Cole's been grew up with him from Willits. I mean, he's, he's one of the kindest, generous people he shares a ton of stuff for me, but the one the person I remember the most is probably my

59:00 Brother in law

59:02 I won't name any names but he works at heaven Hill and

59:06 he likes bourbon but he knows how like obsessed I am with him and he always goes out of his way to give me like a Parkers or an old fits release that just came out like he always is just finding ways to give me something and I'll always cherish that so it's all it means a lot to me. That's that's a relationship by blood that's hardly fostered over birth.

59:31 But we grew up friends before you know, brother in law's we were friends before so but yeah, those those are the bottles that are that need the most to me. Absolutely. In my case, it was really about people knowing what my tastes are. And as I kind of grew up in the hobby and grew up in the community, I would have people that would know the things that I enjoy and would suggest that I try something and oftentimes the suggestion would come with a

1:00:00 two ounce bottle of it showing up at my doorstep. And that's how I figured out that I love national distillers products.

1:00:08 Some I was telling somebody kind of the things that I liked about certain things that were my favorites and then before I knew it, there was a bottle of 1960s old granddad bonded

1:00:18 that showed up at my doorstep and

1:00:21 I guess I should be upset with them because it's caused me to lose a whole lot of money after that.

1:00:27 It sounds like that sounds like Ryan Ryan went on a huge old granddad kick for a while. Oh, gosh, you know it for me any of that old nationalist killer stuff is really just killer. It kind of hits me right in whatever my sweet spot is, for whatever reason, I'm telling we're Barban friends now. Hey,

1:00:44 I got some stuff to send you.

1:00:47 But

1:00:48 that, for me is the big is one of the cooler parts of the community is, you know, people who know you and I know other people's tastes and if I see something for

1:01:00 example I got a buddy who was a big q lover at four roses, and I'm not. And anytime I see a really good q i know exactly who it's going to a CPA office in Indiana.

1:01:15 Because I just, I know that somebody that will appreciate it for more than I. That's where we go. Yeah, it really is. I mean, and I think that's a good way to kind of start wrapping this up because we, you know, we really hit on a lot of things of, really, how do we how do we find your bourbon people? Right? I mean, it all starts by a friend or somebody introduces you to bourbon. It's very rare that any of us just stumble it on our own or, or maybe maybe you do get turned on to it by social media or for the general Media TV or purposes and stuff like that. But for the majority of us, there's somebody that gives us that introduction, and I think that we have all been in

1:02:00 situation to, and I know anybody that's probably listening to this podcast, you know, you're, you're one of the you're one of the geeks out there, you're one of the people that truly hone in on this craft, and you really appreciate it. So odds are is that you're sharing the love of bourbon with somebody else. And so that's just how everything continues to flourish and grow. And then from there yet, then it becomes like, oh, add me on Facebook, we add you to a few groups. And then at that point, you you've just you're all in and as, as Jeremy had mentioned earlier, the boxes just start showing up on your front door and, and your PayPal account gets a little lower, but that's just how it works.

1:02:39 That's just how it works. So, gentlemen, and Jeremy, thank you so much for joining tonight. This is again, a fun topic. And you know, I'll go ahead and kind of let you kind of say what you're gonna say there. I don't think I was gonna say anything.

1:02:55 To Are you

1:02:58 looking at me

1:03:00 You

1:03:01 know, it's it's the rule of thumb is just, I mean, I guess it's the rule of thumb for more than just the bourbon community, but don't be an asshole.

1:03:10 Yep. So you know, if you if you just be a nice guy, it's amazing what kind of connections you're come up with. And 21 Kings is picking up a barrel of will it right here in a couple weeks, and I'm fortunate enough to be one of the people doing it. And I never would have gotten the chance to do anything like that. Had I not been able to be a part of these communities. And it's really cool. It's some of the coolest experiences I've gotten to have and really thankful for that. You know, I guess the other bad thing about being in these communities too, is I didn't realize for years, I could just drive down to willet and just go pick up bottles in the gift shop and

1:03:47 I could have been doing it. I could have been doing it all along. And I just I just didn't know. So

1:03:53 that's the that's the bad part of it. But it's, it's also a good thing because you add a lot more appreciation for what you do have so

1:04:00 Again, everybody, thank you so much for joining tonight. Jeremy, do you have any kind of social handles or anything like that where people can find out more about you? Anybody who wants to I guess I'm around on Facebook Jeremy Mendell Twitter at Jeremy Mendell, Instagram at Jeremy Mendell, if you want to talk to me for some strange reason I'm available. Never know, I know where to send. If I see I know he so I know who to call and all of your VSOs to me, and I'll figure out some way to repay you that you'll be happy about. Very interesting. Very interesting. I know you kind of want to just go pick a whole barrel of Oh, yes. Oh, now just get out of them. I actually did I like I'd have one. It was from my pics from the icons of whiskey when I picked those fucking which was at the 17 or 18.

1:04:53 Yeah, we had all the recipes. It was I think that was a

1:04:59 I think it was like a

1:05:01 11 year old Yeah, that was I think the 2017 one that was really good and it's incredibly dorky that I can just pull out of my head

1:05:13 so that was when I was with whisky magazine and yeah that we did that. And that was like the one of the only times you saw all the all the recipes and that was back when four roses. I think they brought out 40 barrels from for us to taste and guide you lucky forget for now. So it's the way the world now. Alright, let's go. Let's go ahead and we'll sign off. So again, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on tonight. It was a pleasure talking to you. And seriously, thank you so much for bringing this topic up. Because it's it's fun to kind of, you know, really take a retrospective look into really kind of how we all got here and why many people are still actually listening to this podcast because they all have some sort of coming of age tale that's probably very very similar. So

1:06:00 Make sure you check out Jeremy and all those social handles, make sure you check out bourbon pursuit as well as spread MiniK on the Twitter, the Facebook and the Instagrams. And if you're like Jeremy, and you want to help support the show, he's part of our community, you can be part of our community as well. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. So thank you, everybody. That is a part of it. And thank you, everybody that joined into the chat and watch us live. Another perk of just being a part of the community is you can be a part of these things as they're happening and be able to just chat along with us. So with that, thank you, everybody, and talk to you all next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Kentucky Owl Rye Batch 3

Tue, 03 Mar 2020 10:30:28 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Kentucky Owl Rye Batch 3. This 10 year old rye is 114 proof and $200 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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242 - Building a Colorado Whiskey with Michael Myers of Distillery 291

Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:30:35 GMT

Michael Myers sits down to tell us his story of starting Distillery 291. He had a booming photography career, but while living in NY during the events of 9/11, it made him want something else. He found out early on that he liked whiskey, so like most of us who start off with something new, he researched and used his skills from a past farm life to make it a reality. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget and ended up using some of his photography equipment to create the still. From these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards and they are now expanding even further, creating a whiskey that is Aspen stave finished and authentic to Colorado.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com.

Show Notes:

Maker's Mark Solar Panels: https://www.wlky.com/article/makers-mark-now-powering-rickhouses-with-help-of-500-solar-panels/31017612
Beverage Daily Article: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2020/02/17/Alcohol-s-three-tier-system-slows-ecommerce-and-dates-the-industry
Why Does Whiskey Taste Like Whiskey: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-does-whiskey-taste-like-whiskey-an-excerpt-from-lew-brysons-new-book-whiskey-master-class
Rate Our Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/bourbon
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about blended whiskey.
When were you first introduced to bourbon?
Where are you from?
How long where you in Savannah?
Let's talk about your background in photography.
Which more enjoyable, photography or whiskey making?
Tell us about your experience with 9/11.
How were your first attempts at making whiskey?
Did you lean on any outside consultants?
Tell us about building and designing your still.
How much did it cost to build your still?
What was your end goal when you first started?
Tell us about your barrels.
What was going through your mind when you first started?
Did your photography career fund the whiskey business?
Tell us about your awards.
What is the operation like today?
Was it daunting coming to Kentucky with your bourbon?
Did you experience growing pains?
What do you want our listeners to leave with about 291?

0:00 To be the best you have to learn from the best local in the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry. Then from a university located in its Epicenter, the University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit.

0:36 Michael Myers Michael Michael Myers got it.

0:40 We didn't want to say anything but I'm sure you get all the time people like Michael Myers especially down like Halloween coming up and studly yo Yeah, never

0:48 your

0:50 damn life.

0:52 And my first name is Jason. Believe it or not, he shouldn't be though. Oh my gosh.

1:07 This is Episode 242 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny. And if you're ready for your bourbon whiskey and overall spirits news, it's about time we get to it. According to the US securities regulation charges in its 2014 and 2015 fiscal years biagio North America pressure distributors to buy excess inventory in order to meet internal sales targets in the face of declining markets, and now is hit with a $5 million dollar fine from the SEC, johnnie Walker's owner Diaz you failed to disclose the excess stocks to investors creating a misleading impression that the audio and the audio North America were able to achieve their sales targets through normal customer man according to the SEC. Now without admitting or denying the SEC findings, Dr. Gao has agreed to pay a $5 million penalty and agreed to cease and desist from any further

2:00 violations. The SEC has accepted the offer. Lexapro distillers is paying homage to the past by relaunching an old bourbon. The Davis county Kentucky straight bourbon is being released in three varieties. The Nashville is a mix of weeded bourbon and rye mash Bill said it liver a sweet and spicy taste. There will be the original a Cabernet Sauvignon finish in a French oak finish. Davis county distilling company was the first to release the bourbon, and the brand dates back to 1874 and was one of the few distilleries to survive prohibition.

2:34 Maker's Mark has added more than 500 solar panels to its facility. In Loretto to power its Rick houses, and it's done through a partnership with the Kentucky utilities company. The 560 panels will provide energy for security, lighting, barrel elevators and office spaces in the brick houses. However, I'm curious if there's actually office space at a brick house. If it's true, I don't know if it's a good or bad thing because

3:00 You've been sequestered to sitting in a wreck house every day might get a little bit lonely, almost like Milton then as red stapler in the basement from the office space. But I guess it smells like bourbon, which is better than a basement so you got that going for you. All right, well back to the topic. The new solar array first began producing power for Maker's Mark in early February, and is expected to produce about 268,000 kilowatt hours per year. e commerce analytics company profit, tiro said that online alcohol sales could explode from anywhere to seven to $15 billion in the next few years, noting that e commerce is making an impact on just about every industry imaginable. And alcohol looks to be the next sector to be disrupted by the continued shift to digital. However, as we've been saying on this podcast time and time again, the three tier system is slowing this down and is dating the industry and an article by beverage daily calm. It looks at platforms such as drizzly go, puff and thirsty

4:00 brands can catch on and partner. It also goes into detail on how these brands can differentiate themselves and not be paired next to other brands that could be either cheaper or delivered in a shorter time period. You can read more with the link to beverage daily calm in our show notes. Last week at the inaugural us distilled spirits conference, Mitch McConnell offered no relief with the ongoing tariff dispute for American and foreign whiskey. The European Union is a key market export for Kentucky bourbon, and it imposed 25% tariffs on us whiskey in 2018. In response to us tariffs that Trump enacted on imported steel and aluminum. Now, late last year, the US left a 25% tariff on imports of single malt Irish and Scotch whisky liquors, and that also affected global companies like brown Forman and biagio that import these products to the US. Now I common excuses that the US whiskey industry has just been collateral damage in Trump's trade disputes.

5:00 And Chris Walker, President and CEO of the spirits council said that the industry hasn't lost hope and that the levees will be removed. And now there's even more coverage that the chief executives of the Scotch whisky Association and the distilled spirits Council of the United States are calling on the UK and US governments to urgently find a negotiated solution to unrelated trade disputes and remove all terrorists on distilled spirits. Have you ever wondered, why does whiskey taste like whiskey? Well, when we nose and taste bourbon, we get leather, caramel dried fruits, but it was never made with any of that. And a new article by Lou Bryson at The Daily Beast, he explores every step of the process and how flavors are derived with grains like rye and their spice in his character. Why using the same Nashville at two different distilleries will result in two different very whiskies. And then there's

5:55 an organic compound formed by bacteria that's found in Water Agency

6:00 And is responsible for that musty or earthy smell like some lake water, but can also be found in whiskey too. There's more talk about stills barrels, proofing and more and you can read all this with a link to the Daily Beast in our show notes. For today's podcast, Michael Myers tells a story of the starting distillery to 91 he had a career in photography in the events of 911 made him want to do something else. So like anything most of us want to venture into you research and research and research. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget ended up even using some his photography equipment in the still itself. The distillery has grown but that original still is used as as doubler today, from these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards, and now they're expanding into more and more states. The distillery is expanding itself and he's creating a whiskey that is asked when the state finished that he feels his

7:00 authentic to Colorado. We're currently doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey. So we want to know more about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare, please visit bourbon pursuit.com slash 2020 survey. It really it only takes 30 seconds. We appreciate the time. Are it Showtime, here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char

7:28 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day My team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm.

7:44 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. As I put the bullseye upon my lips for the first time, I could feel it tingling upon the bottom of my lip and the top. Once it hit my tongue it just overwhelm my palate with flavor

8:00 drenching down the bottom of my jaw line, tingling the sides of my tongue tingling the top of my palate. Just feel warming me all the way down. And you know what? It's not a bourbon. And it's not a rye. It's a blend of straights. It's a blend of straight rye whiskey and straight bourbon and it is motherfucking delicious. Right now I'm putting it as one of my contenders for whiskies of the year. You can see my full review on it on my YouTube page. But this, this whiskey and all the barrel releases and all these other blends that we have seen come out in recent years from from high West and barrel and numerous other you know, blending houses that are really doing a great job right now. They really are shaking up our traditions in American whiskey. You see the term blend used to be a really dirty word and American whiskey

9:00 ski and it all goes back to the 1800s when Canadian blenders were infiltrating the straight whiskey scene and undercutting the Kentucky bourbon distillers and putting their Canadian blends on the market and you know what consumers really, really liked them. And so it begins there and the Canadian whiskey distillers were trying to block the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. Of course, they were unsuccessful. The Canadian whiskey distillers also rise up again after prohibition, and they actually ironically tried to put bottled and bond on their label. Now, what's interesting is that the US government ended up terrifying their their whiskey to block them from using bottled and bond so that basically stopped them from using bottled and bond. But at that same time, American distillers did not have a lot of stocks from their left over from prohibition. So they actually had to use blends and

10:00 cells to get their brands out onto the market. And so you would see neutral grain spirit being added to, say, a four year old bourbon that had just been distilled a couple of few years ago. And that really kind of like people were like, ah, I really like blends, but this is all I got. And the straight bourbon distillers were just kind of reluctantly doing it, but they had to and so you couple that what they would later call rocket whiskey with the the the blended whiskey from from Canada, and you had distillers in the 1950s not even allowing the the word blend being used in their distilling house, and that's where the words mingle and marrying or born. And for every decade after that the Kentucky distillers especially, would call out blend as a dirty word and would not let people say putting two barrels to

11:00 Together was blending that was mingling. And so that's where those words come from is because people were never wanted to use the word blend in Kentucky distilleries. Now fast forward to 2020. You have a lot of new blood in the industry, a lot of new blood that does not care about old terms or old ways. They just want to put out great whiskey. And I got to tell you some of the more exciting whiskies that I have tasted in the past five years, our blends of straight whiskies. They are absolutely fantastic. But you will never, ever hear me say those words around the great Jimmy Russell. If you ask him, blend is still a dirty word. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you're checking out my new podcast the Fred Minix show where I interview musicians

12:00 And I pair whiskeys to their palate. I'm having a blast and coming up I've got an American Idol winner on the show. Until next week cheers

12:12 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan here in our official recording studio, which is deemed Kenny's basement. Yes, yeah. Where we shoot everything. Whiskey quickies the podcast unit Hey but you know we started get everything together we got lights we got cameras we got everything happened in here so it's fun for especially people that are either watching on YouTube or on Facebook or something like that and you want to get something different than just something audio only at least get a fancy background. Yeah, unfortunately for our guests, when they show up, they're like, damn it what you're in a house, like a recording studio. are gonna be we'll get another one of these days. One of these days. One of these days we'll get there you know, as much cooler sailors whiskey, I'm sure But well, we'll get the studio there one of these days. We'll get some sound panels and everything like that. That makes us feel a little bit more legit

13:00 But you know, today I'm really excited about our guests because this is a distillery that, you know, we've heard about, you know, we've read about it before and bourbon and banter and everything like that. He's even been a guest with Fred MiniK on his show on Youtube before and so now something in common. You know, Fred's the mutual connection here right here we go and then and so being able to have him on the show kind of talk about their stories stuff like that is you know, pretty exciting because anybody that isn't watching on TV he brought to find whiskeys for us to sit on here. So we got their their bourbon and their rye, which you might be hearing us sipping up throughout the show. Yes, and it's very highly decorated bottle. So tons of awards. And I just had it for the first time and I can see why. For a distiller this young, it seems like some pretty good, juicy got here. So I'm excited to hear the story and dive into how it got to this ball.

13:53 See, they put stickers on Oh, yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and introduce our guest. So today we have Michael Myers.

14:00 Michael is the founding distiller and CEO of distillery to 91 out of Colorado Springs. So Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Well, good. So you know, before we, you know, talk about the whiskey and the distillery let's kind of let's rewind the hands of time here kind of talk about your first introduction to bourbon or spirits or anything like that. Yeah, so the it's funny. The first time I drank whiskey that I remember was, we always have those stories, too. Yeah, I

14:31 was I was 18 and turn just turned 18 that day and went to a local bar with friend He must have been in Canada or something.

14:41 Now in Georgia,

14:43 close 18 That all changed but I went to bar and wanted to drink a whiskey and ordered Yukon jack, which was sort of the whiskey at the time. Sweet and now it's really not I mean, I think it's GNS what's

15:00 Some natural flavorings and stuff, but you would know better now I know konjac is a new one on me. It's from Canada.

15:08 That you said Yeah. And it's Yeah, it's a liquid. Gotcha now and so yeah with my friend Todd Hawkins and we had a lot of fun and drank you know, a shot of it and

15:23 and then probably the next time I mean, I was drinking jack jack daniels, as well later and then college. One of my worst experiences was super bowl and I had bought some really nice Crown Royal, moving up in the world and

15:40 and drank not a fifth but maybe 375 of that throughout the Super Bowl and just got so sick and actually woke up the next morning was like, I love whiskey. I am going to the bar and forcing myself to drink more whiskey so that I don't have that issue.

16:00 Where I can't smell that ever again. And so I did that day I got up that afternoon went to the bar and that first shot of whiskey was rough. can imagine you can even like try to like get a bloody or bloody married Atlanta your way in here though. No hair, the dog, and it was great. And now I make it. Yeah, that's one hell of a story. I know. That's like the most badass story I've ever heard. There's no way that I mean, I remember back in college and stuff like that. There was no way I get up after feeling hungover after a bad night and be like, I'm going for a gator, right? Like coconut water. I'm like, What can I do to feel better? I mean, back then everybody was drinking like Pedialyte, they would actually go and buy like, I'm guilty of that. There you go. It doesn't work. I think my times way before video.

16:48 Were salty. I was in Savannah, Georgia. They just kept drinking.

16:53 I was like, yeah, definitely different time we're searching for pedia lightnings like it just bring it up for us.

17:00 right now.

17:02 So let's kind of talk about more of like your history and stuff like that. So you were in Savannah, how long were you in Savannah? So I was in Savannah for school. I'm born and raised Georgia. With my summers spent in California. My mom lived out there since I was six. And so I went to about two different Yeah, ends of the spectrum, Georgia and California really different because we raised Tennessee walking horses, so and in middle school, we had 11 acres inside the perimeter and then moved out to Alpharetta with 70 acres and another 80 so we had horses and cows and all kinds of stuff. And I was given a camera when I was 15. My mom gave it to me and picked it up and never looked back. And so I went to Savannah College of Art and Design, believe it or not, that's where 291 comes from for me. So I my dorm room was 291 and after I moved in there I went school and learned in history.

18:00 class that the very first photo gallery ever was gallery 291 was in New York in 1907. And so I'm like, meant to be a photographer. And that's where 291 came from, which is my brand name. And that just those three numbers just have just stuck with you for forever. Yeah, as a I was a fashion beauty photographer for over 27 years and like for models are young ones. Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Mainly makeup beauty stuff, like Revlon. Clairol? Yeah, I still only know this because my wife's a cosmetology

18:33 Tiffany and company but I did shoot for this old house and Forbes FBI and what kind of cameras us Michael Jordan a Canon What do you know I shot with a Pentax six, seven, and it's a it's it's looks like a

18:49 35 millimeter that's on steroids. And so the negative is six millimeters by seven. So that's that's pretty big, almost playing card but a little smaller than that.

19:00 You guys are speaking a different language to me. I've tried, like, I've dabbled in a lot of things in photography. It was like one of them and it lasted for like two months. So I like it though. But it's collecting dust. Nice. Now just like iPhone, you know, I bought it right. That's everybody asked, Do you still do that? And I'm like, I have an iPhone. I mean, it's, it's in my pocket. It's all branded. I mean, it's, it looks like a phone. I'll show it to you afterwards. Yeah, that's what the sake is. Most people. You know, I remember when I had my first kid and, and they said, like, Oh, you've got to go out. You've got to buy an awesome camera. And, you know, here's your here's your cannons, your DSLRs. And I'm like,

19:37 I don't know if I'm going to be lugging this thing around with me everywhere we go. I just don't know if I'm gonna do it. But I remember I did look into it. I just never pulled the trigger on it. Yeah, yeah. good reason. Yeah.

19:47 I mean, if you're going to shoot, you might need it a better one. But family stuff. It's always been best. The camera in your hand or the camera in your pocket, because you'll get the image. It doesn't matter if it's hype.

20:00 quality or not putting you at least have the moment. Yeah. And that's what matters. I'm probably not gonna make it poster size when I was shooting. I'd be so focused on like getting a shot that I would forget the moment, you know, not being in the moment. That's why I was like, just doing my iPhone, but right. We're not here talking about cameras. No, no, but I want to hear a little bit more about the photography and like, because that seems like it was a pretty mean 20 years as you said that you were doing that right. 27 Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, so kind of talk about you've got to have some, at least some pretty funny stories or something good from those days, too. So I shot Angelina Jolie when she was 15. I have that picture on my 14 year old was.

20:39 And when she was 16. I shot her a couple of times. Some of my last clients were the Olsen twins. shot down.

20:46 Shot.

20:48 Like geeking out right now. She's like an Olsen twins. Yeah, so I had a really great career. It was still a struggle. It was you know, a lot of work and living in New York.

21:00 Not easy raising a family there and you know being a freelancer so as about to say so like the the dynamic of photography and freelancing versus making whiskey, like what Be honest what's more enjoyable now

21:16 making whiskey and how do you merge the tape?

21:20 I built my still out of photograph your plates. Okay. So a photograph of your plate is a flat copper plate you chemically edge an image in, you put ink on the plate, you put a piece of paper with it, run it through a press and you get an ink photograph. So I took those seven copper plates of different images from my life and water jet cut them took them and rolled them through a roller so that curve and then had a guy TIG weld it together. And that was that was my original still 45 gallon still. I had a

21:53 cask for the thump kegger doubler and I built a stripping still out of a

22:00 55 gallon gallon stainless drum. So you built this all yourself? I did. How do you do that? Like YouTube or something? Yes. I grew up on a farm I can build. Okay. I'm a redneck. Yeah.

22:15 And yeah, I mean, my story's intertwined with New York and 911 and then building this still. And the process of distillation reminds me the dark room. So that's where 291 came from, for the brand name for me, but I built that still and that still is the thump keg to my 300 gallons still that I built had built in Colorado Springs. So these these guys department of defense contractors, and they built things like titanium ball valve that's like 10 inches across four new killer sub, you know, valves and and nickel plate press not plate but nickel press rings for proposal.

23:00 tubes. And they're like, we like whiskey. Do you need a bigger still? And I'm like, Yeah, great. Sharon so gave them my plans and they built 300 gallons still that looks identical to mine. And the funny thing was, there's a little bit of pressure in a still like five pounds, but not much, but they were engineers. I went to art school. And they didn't believe me that it didn't need to be that thick. So they built it out of plate copper. So it is thick and heavy, but it's beautiful. It works really well too. So kind of talk about that, because you kind of intrigued me right there because I remember reading a little bit something about 911 and that happening and you couldn't get back to your apartment or something like that. And you kind of just had to move the family for a little bit kind of talk about that time. Yeah, so 911 we live three blocks from the World Trade Center. We lived on the corner of Warren and West Side Highway. And I was on granted and Dwayne with my son on my shoulders when the first plane flew over my older son

24:00 So they were four and five, my oldest son was in, in our building in ps 89, which is on the second floor, we lived on the 25th floor, and we had just dropped him off. My wife and I and my son walk into his class or his school, and that's when the first plane flew over. And so yeah, so everything that day was a crazy day, needless to say, spent the night on North more.

24:27 And then with seven families and then couldn't get back in our apartment, went to Long Island. Long story short, moved to Colorado for about nine months. I commuted move back to New York, was there a couple of years and it wasn't good for my family. So I said we'd move back you're still doing photography at this time? Yeah, I got to do in photography. And so we moved back and I commuted another four years full time, and then was just trying to figure out something else to do and still, like wrote some TV, worked on some movie stuff.

25:00 And just nothing really panning out. And I shot a vanity fair job in New York in August 2010 and on the way home read an article about the guy that created Sailor Jerry and Hendrix shin and he, you know, created an idea and branded it and all that somebody else made the juice form and I came back thinking wow, I could brand a whiskey you know, and and talk to a friend of mine, Mike Bristol, Bristol brewing. And he said, get your license and I'll try and help and so and then somebody else said why don't you try and make it because you can always hire somebody if you can't. And I'm like, they make it in the woods of Georgia. It can't be that hard.

25:41 And so I decided to build my still moved into 300 square feet. Got my DSP distilled spirit plant permit in April with I got it in four weeks from when I applied, which is amazing time. That's right takes us for

26:00 TTP doesn't move that fast anymore. And so I was in 300 square feet. I could make 60 gallons a month of Finnish whiskey that was working my butt off that was you know, 17 hour days seven days a week. Wow for talking about those like first attempts at making whiskey what's it like what do you do going into like are you reading a manual? Or how like are you just like going off like I'll travel knowledge and what will you do that? Yeah, he's got a he's got a landline to somebody with some some overalls on be like, No, you gotta tweak. You gotta move this. Yeah, so I'd never brewed beer. And I'd never distilled until I started this in my first distillation true. Finished distillation was September 11 2011.

26:42 My still the guy, TIG welding it together finished it after it took him all summer to get started on it. finished it September 9, and so I waited for that to remake that anniversary. And yeah, during that time, I read YouTube blogged everything. I

27:00 Heard about how you make whiskey. And and it is funny. The one thing that I do say is I watched popcorn Sutton's documentary, the original one. And in there, there's a point where he talks about taking, he takes a stick and the worms there. And he puts the stick in the end of it and lets it balance. And he says, if the whiskey is thicker than the stick coming off, it's fighting whiskey. So from that I learned you need to run it really slow to make really good whiskey. And there's other things that I learned books, I read things, and I love to cook and I love the dark room. And so I really feel that was like my home brewing experience. Putting those two things together to get to make whiskey. So are there any other like outsiders or consultants that you leaned on to kind of pick their brains or kind of guide you along? Or is it totally just you? Totally me? That's cool. How did you know you weren't gonna like blow up the place? Like, you know, just, I don't know, you know, there's a lot of pressure on

28:00 Nice other like five pounds pressure but yeah run high. That seems like a lot of back and happen. I knew that it was an open system so as long as you don't plug the system you're good and and as long as you keep cooling the steam coming off the still, you're okay but if that water stops

28:21 that can be a problem. Yeah, there was one point where that happened for me and it was a mess and

28:29 I think there was a room full of 160 proof steam all wrapped around me and I was just like, okay, let's calm down. slow this down. Yeah, and I just I read a lot I paid attention to what how it was supposed to work and and did it that way. The funny thing is, is I steam heated everything. So I put a steam coil in my mash tun that also was my stripping still with a different top on it and a column and then my finish still had a steam code.

29:00 illinit and I bought a home steam unit for steam shower. And I first time I hit the button that came on, it was all hooked up. I'd like to say we're like close from

29:11 anywhere. Close. That's funny.

29:15 And so I hit the button, went to take notes for a little bit about an hour later the day turned off. And I'm like, What? walked over there looked at everything. It was heat hot and push the button and came back on. I'm like, great, literally an hour later cut off again. And I was like, Damn, it's a home steam unit. It's got an automatic off on it. So literally for the next two and a half years.

29:42 Every run from

29:45 finish run stripping to mashing then I had to reset that button every 45 minutes. Gosh, that's awesome. It sounds terrible.

29:56 So I'd run home cooked dinner. That's like the great bootstrapping story.

30:00 Like somebody just like going in and just giving it their all and like figuring it out. I don't know. It's pretty cool. That's right. And I'd go home cooked dinner, come back, push the button, go home eat dinner, go to the liquor store and make a sale come back push the button go back to another store to settle alarm on your phone.

30:18 Reset, Steve, I know 45 minutes pretty good now.

30:24 Somebody goes up how the wind take their 45 minutes. Don't worry, I got that. I got

30:30 I mean, that's that's it isn't it is impressive story of being able to go and learn and actually build it yourself. You know, it's like, it's like most of the people that you know, you say like, Oh, you wanna write a book on something? Or if you're if you want to learn something, right, write the book on it or do whatever it is to actually learn how to do it from the inside out. And, you know, you could go to moonshine you and you can learn and look and be able to like look at it but mean you you really like dope the pieces that actually made this all together. I did and moonshine you wasn't around at that time.

31:00 And there wasn't a lot It was mainly have gone if it was already just done it yourself.

31:06 That's an interesting question. I probably wouldn't have. So when I went to buy a still, that's why I built my own Vendome had a 55 gallon or 50 gallons still, that was like $50,000 I'm like, I don't have that money. I've never made this stuff. How What? So I,

31:25 I decided to build my own. So that probably the same with

31:30 moonshine, you probably would have been expensive. I wasn't sure. You know. Yeah. So just, you know, just wing it. Looking at your best, right, I guess then talk a little bit more about because I think one thing that's interesting here was you're talking about your copper plates that you use that you you took and then if I understood correctly, you said you rolled it out thin enough that you could then kind of form it and build your still so didn't roll it out. It was fairly thin copper. It is then copper. I mean, it's it's rigid.

32:00 But you roll it just to curve it to put the curve in it. So

32:05 that's why you roll it not not squeezing the copper out. But the etchings are still on the still you can see them when you go and take a tour. It's pretty amazing. But yeah, I just

32:19 researched it. Not everybody can take weld copper, and I found a man that was an amazing welder. Another God guy that could could take weld copper and did really nice job with it. So and talk about the design a little because I know we've had we've had Vendome on the show before. And you know, they they talk about all the crazy designs and you go You mean you go to anywhere like you see the different steel boxes, you see the different ways that people are putting it I mean, it could be a spatial issue could be a bunch of different ways. But you know, unless you're doing a copper pot still everybody more it's a column still but everybody's is a little bit different, a little bit unique. So kind of talk about how you came to the design of what yours was.

33:00 Going to be so mine's a copper pot still, there's no plates in it at all. The only sort of plate is the thumb keg. So that kind of works as a what plates do and still. And that design I found on the web. Somebody had built one and I was like, that's really cool. And I designed it more how I needed it. But the the design of the still, there's a secret behind that. I figured it out.

33:29 I'm a visual person and I just I found a few stills that I liked and came up with a concept and idea and how, what the sizes should be and drew it out. So I had in high school I had 11 quarters of mechanical drafting. So I'm not great at it now because it's that's a long time ago, but I can draw that like AutoCAD or before was AutoCAD. Like pencil and paper.

33:58 T square Yeah.

34:00 Exactly with a maybe a compass compass. Exactly. tractor. Exactly. And that's what I did. I drew it out, I bought a drawing board, which is a piece of soft wood, thick, you know board and I bought paper and drew it out. I still have those drawings of it. I actually drew a limbic still first. And it's a really beautiful drawing, but I never went that direction. I went with the pot still. So how about you said vinden was 50,000 How much was your homemade $500? Wow. The cost savings? Yeah. All the parts I you know, I sourced all of it. That's not with my time in it or anything like that. But sure, yeah. Where'd you get all the parts like Craigslist or? Pretty much? No. Granger, actually. Okay.

34:46 A lot of parts on there. They have more stuff than you'll ever know. Yeah. You're like, do you have this and like, yeah, and I'm like, What? You'll have that too. So yeah. Craigslist would be a better story though. I know.

34:59 In search of

35:01 Such of a doubler misconnection where's my doubler? Yeah, so I guess um, you know so we're talking right now about making your still and making white dog and and kind of talk about what was that next progression of it so he's shown us the the picture of it right now so yeah, that's it is it's an exact replica of your of your original. It's really cool. Oh, that's awesome. That's really cool. So making white dog here at the very beginning so were you were you thinking like okay like I'm gonna make whiskey I'm gonna make bourbon or was it just like, what was the kind of like your end goal that you had in mind. So I set out to 91 Colorado whiskey, I set out to make a Western whiskey whiskey that you would walk into a bar and a Western asked for, you know, whiskey, walk up, the bartender finds a Western whiskey for you. So mine is a Colorado whiskey and it's big, bold and beautiful, like the state of Colorado. Okay, so

35:58 and they slam the bottle down. It'd be too

36:00 91 and you know, get to drink it and you have a deal afterwards. Yeah, exactly. And so I love rye whiskey before I made my own Thomas handy was my favorite. So both these my rye and my bourbon are my original recipes. The bourbon is changed slightly. It's 80% corn 19% modify 1% malt barley. It started out at 20 mile rye, and that's because Mike Bristol had a bag of corn 50 pound bag of corn, and it was over a weekend I wanted mashin. So I went to the homebrew shop and bought I was looking for a ride. They only had Ryan mall. I'm like great, I need them all to convert. So I did that mashed in and ran that. I ran that on a very small I stripped it and then ran it on a very small Olympic still. And that was truly my first distillation ever. And then the next distillation and I have all these notes written down with the dates on it and everything.

37:00 The next Captain's log. Yeah. Yeah, the ttv you have to a lot, you know, and I didn't I didn't have any money. I wasn't doing any, you know, computer stuff. So I was handwriting notes in the notebook. And they're funny to go through because I talked about, you know what I'm doing distillation, but I also talked about my son's running cross country that day, or an event I was going to or what was going on in my life throughout these days. So it's kind of cool to look back. It's all chicken scratch scribbled scratched out spellings wrong, you know, all that good stuff we need to do today. Like why the fuck is this?

37:40 What the hell is wrong with this mash? Yeah. Or, Oh, that smells like throw up. That is not good. Yeah. But that is gold because you can always look back on that and be like, this is where I started and always kind of bring you back to that. That is awesome. Yeah. And we go back to it actually. There's another mash in there. That is a

38:00 Special release comes out, usually in October. It's called bad guy. And that was my third recipe. And we we went back a couple of years ago because the newer bad guy wasn't tasting the same as the old bad guy and so we went back and read the recipe in the directions and

38:21 bad guy came from so I did as a single barrel for restaurant and I had done this mash to try I hadn't experimented so I was going to experiment and bad guys a four grain we did bourbon and when it came up still I was like, that is really good white dog. I mean, was sweet, amazing. And I put it in a in a tank and was waiting and was supposed to have already mashed in for this other one for the restaurant. And I got behind and I needed the cash and so I was like, you know I got the that one in the in the tank over there. I'll just

39:00 Cell it so I called him to come hammer the bong it's done, put it in there hammered the button. He was talking to his son on the phone who was like four. He's like, what should I call it? And his son goes bad guy.

39:12 And I was like, Oh, damn, and

39:16 so he he year later, when the whiskey was coming out of the barrel, I'm like, what are we gonna name it? And he goes, I don't know. And I'm and I had written on the barrel bad guy, so I didn't forget. And I'm like, you gotta call it bad guy. We got to call it bad guy. And he's like, No, I don't know. And then I talked him into it finally. And so that's why it's bad guy bourbon to 91 bad guy bourbon, very cool store grand weeded bourbon, you have a lot of cool stories.

39:46 Just sit back and listen, not just keep talking. I'll shut up.

39:50 I mean, kind of talk about that a little bit as as you were, you know, how much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like a

40:00 Talk about that process to

40:05 with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rack house whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey a month club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merch

41:00 side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box

41:15 How much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like kind of talk about that process too. So the barrel mill, I found them online somehow and they were fairly new out of Avon, Minnesota. And so I called them they would FedEx me a barrel. So I'm like that works. You know, everybody else wants to sell you a palette

41:38 palette.

41:40 There's a funny story about palette too. And so I just bought a barrel and would fill it up and and I had a few barrels in that 300 square foot space. And I'd harvest it and hand bottle and label it and go out and sell it. So the very beginning here kind of talk about what's your because I remember you said you were doing would you say

42:00 50 6060 gallons in a week, right is my month, a month, a month. And that took that took, you know, six. So my fermentation tanks were 55 gallon Pepsi, you know, plastic drums with the top cut off. And so it would take, I'd mashin six. So I could do two matches in a day. So that's three days, I could strip two in a day. So that's three days of stripping, and it would yield about 3540 gallons of low wines and at 35% or so and then I'd finish on it and it would I end up with like 15 gallons. And so in a you know, in a month period, I had 60 gallons to put in barrels. So I mean talk about it, like as we talked to, we talked a big boys right and they're pumping out that in 20 minutes, right? I mean,

42:54 yeah. So kind of talk about you know, like, you know, where where did you kind of see yourself

43:00 Like, were you like, this is awesome. Like, this is fun. I'm having fun with this, or you like I'm in, I'm in over my head, like kind of talk about what was going through your mind at that time. It was amazing. So when it first came out still and I tasted it, and I had a friend that was a bartender, phenomenal bartender, Nate Windham, and he would taste it. And he's like, Damn, that's really good white dog. And so he had a couple of cocktails that he was using some white dog that was on the, on the shelf at the time. And he just started trading out with my white dog and my fresh. And I always say if, if it came off, and it had been a grind to figure out the recipe, and it wasn't that good coming off, it would have been, it would have been a lot harder. But when it was that good, and Nate was already making cocktails with it, it was like, all right, this is working, and I could taste it and tell. And so but I mean, the whole process, you know, you've got to make those tale cuts and that's, that's the art of distillation. And I didn't know anything and so

44:00 That was made me nervous, you know, what are you going to do how you're going to do this? And so

44:06 in my processes of photographers solving problems, you know, the, the head cut is easy, it's a percentage, or you can taste the difference really quickly. It also drops improved quite a bit at head cut, and then you got ethanol coming off and then tail it's like where do you stop as a distiller the art of distilling, where do you stop and so when it started dropping and proof, I decided to take you know, a quart mason jar and and collect it every 10 proof and then go back, you know, I had the main amount of ethanol but here I had tails coming off. And I just decided started tasting them and deciding where, how much I would put back into, you know, the ethanol that had already come off.

44:56 And so that's that's how I figured out my cut.

45:00 Yeah, and we got to make sure you pick up the cuts cuz well that should make you go blind if you get it wrong. That's the that's the head cut. There you go okay. acetone, methanol and all that that comes off first loser, high, high alcohols that have a low boiling point. So were you like cash flow in this with your photographer photography? What the photographer you're you've only had one port right now get it I'll spit it out. Get it out your photography, photography career was it paying for your gosh what can I say that photography career? I just did it

45:38 photogra man

45:41 was your photography career was this kind of fuel in this baby or were you just like out on your you know on your own trying to make this work. I know my photography was not. I did do a design job for for charity. They were trying to save

46:00 The hospital from being sold to large corporation. And so they had this whole campaign they wanted. And so I designed and did commercials and did all kinds of stuff for it. So it paid me really well. So I use that money to start to 91. Gotcha. And to go back to the original distillation and all that, you know, when I started making to 91 I wanted to be Colorado and kind of branded and so it we haven't talked about that, but it's 291 Colorado bourbon or 291, Colorado rye whiskey, and it's Aspen state finished. So I take toasted pieces Aspen, pop the bung on the barrel, put the Aspen in the oak barrel, and for the last few weeks, we finish it on Aspen. admins are the trees that guys may turn yellow, but they don't lose their leaves. Is that right? No, they they lose. Okay, they've turned yellow and red. They're really beautiful. Yeah.

47:00 Why we only Aspen reference I knows we the dumbing down. Oh, yeah, yeah. So talking about City College.

47:07 So the way I figured that out was I wanted to ask been on the label I, I took some aspirin, toasted it, put it in a mason jar with some Finnish whiskey and was riding to Boulder with a friend that was about a two hour drive. And I just shook the mason jar. And when I got up to Boulder I had, you know, some of the original and then what it tasted like on Aspen and I'm like, that's good. And so that's where that came from. That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. What's what is it about Aspen that's different from Oak that kind of gives it some different. It's there. So for me it it pushes common notes to maple and it adds a little spice to it and a little smoke. This rye has a beautiful color on it by the way too. I need to try the wrap the porcelain arriving on the nose on the rise really good. I love it. So it's one on 1.7

48:00 proof.

48:01 The bourbon was 100 proof

48:04 and how long you, you agencies and what type and how big of the containers and everything like that. Let's get let's get into it for that was all there. It's all secret. Yep. Oh gosh, man. Guess we had to go on a tour to find out.

48:21 So it's American oak barrels deep charred. We age a year to two years. Right now, you know the ride that you're talking about in 2018 one world's best ride from whisky magazine. It also won America's best in 2016 from World whiskey magazine. And then that's an interesting thing that in that 300 square foot space, my barrel number two of this rye got 94 points from Jim Murray's whiskey Bible. Congratulation. Thank you and and we have seven liquid gold from Jim Murray.

49:00 six different recipes. So it's been so Jim Murray's a fan of you. Yeah, I'm a fan of his He's great. His tasting notes are amazing. I don't know if you've ever read any we haven't had him on the show yet. We'll get him on we'll get him there probably much more elaborate than ours. I'm like tastes like smores are

49:19 or always try relating to our breakfast cereal you know like cocoa Chris for Count chocula I don't notice that you do you do a lot of cereals Don't you know I get a lot of cereal like when you're a kid. You get a lot of those cereal notes with it with the milk one of our Bourbons has a it's a char high rye. It has a cherry fund up

49:41 to it. It says it says he's that one now. You know fun dips that powdery my kids so it's like dry. And so the high proof of it make its cherry but it dries out just like fund up it's really funny. So yeah, you can find my my distill.

50:00 Eric jet had one whiskey and he's like, you know, it's like that. That dusty old Poncho and team was like, What are you talking about? And what were you on at that time? It's not your grandma's attic you know there is a note sometimes that dryness Yeah, you know that musty old basement. musty old isn't good but yeah dusties not so bad. Because it's the dryness part have tasted like, like you talked about cherry funded like grape Kool aids like, you know, the manufacturer grape flavors, you know, like, I get, like, come out a lot. Yeah, a lot. Talk about today's operation. So, so you're you're you're the founding distiller sounds like you're not distilling anymore, but kind of talk a little bit more about, you know, what the size of the operation is the people if you're still doing you know, 60 gallons in a month or if you're if you're if you progress so kind of talk about that. Yeah, I wouldn't be here if I

50:55 guess I don't like only bottles.

50:59 Well, that was interesting.

51:00 Same thing was like 2016 when I sent whiskey magazine, they needed two bottles and I had to pay money and and I was like, I don't have that much whiskey. So that's why it took me a while to start putting in awards. But all my tanks, the 55 gallon drums, the fermentation tanks, my stripping still. I mean, yeah 55 gallon drums have all moved up to 1500 gallons, including the stripping still. I showed you that picture has the 300 gallon finished still in it. All the whiskey still goes across the original still as the thump keg. we distill twice a week, and we're producing about 240 finished gallons a week right now. We're working on some barrel financing to add the first of the year that will move up to producing five days a week. And we are right now. I've been in 7500 Square Feet for six years. Wow.

52:00 That's hard to believe.

52:02 And we are moving within a year we will be in a campus with 28,000 square feet, four different buildings. One will be a distillation building the other one will be fermentation, barrel storage and then tasting room. So you just you're looking at it like this. Let's keep investing into this growing and bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, I mean, we did 20 609 liter cases last year. Sold and and we've produced the year before 20 609 liter cases. And so we're selling everything we make. 95% of it is in Colorado. We just opened Kentucky this week. We're in 27 Kroger stores in Kentucky and it's going really well. But we could sell more if we had it and that's what we're working on. But we still the quality we are. It does not come out of the barrel until it's ready.

53:00 What's it like coming to Kentucky is it like coming to Kentucky to play basketball you know like we got faced the Wildcats when you're coming to Kentucky you don't face all the big boys environment is that daunting or you like Bring it on.

53:14 I don't know that it's daunting. The community's amazing. And that's the great thing. Everybody I meet is incredibly helpful. Even Fred MiniK he's he's the one that helped Kroger. So by introducing me to, to the buyer, and you know nothing about this rod tasted very familiar. Not had it at Fred's office. He goes, this is the next big distillery

53:40 because the smoking is that or reminds me of when I had it. So anyway, side note.

53:46 Yeah, so it's been amazing. I mean, at the one of the awards thing, Jeff Barnett, one master distiller jack daniels, Master distiller and I went up to talk

54:00 Cuz you want to say hello, you know, right oh my god, and he was the nicest man and we got talking, and he's from Jackson, Tennessee where my brother lives that's a surgeon. And we had a family farm in Shelbyville, which is which flat Creek, Tennessee, which was seven miles from jack daniels, seven miles to deckle. So I told him that and we really hit it off. And then my brother was doing a charity didn't know I had met Jeff, but knew he was from Jackson and reached out to him to do a tasting of the charity. And because he was from Jackson, he did it. And my brother called me and said, You know, that's who's coming. And I was like, Oh, I just met him. And he's like, wow. And so I went with my brother's friend, our partner that had a twin prop plane, and we flew from Jackson to tullahoma and picked up Jeff, and literally when I walked off the plane, he was walking up on the tarmac, and he's like, hey, Michael, how's it going? And I mean, I hadn't met him once in person, but he knew

55:00 who I was and was, it was amazing and we've become friends. I texted him all the time. I'm going to go see him tomorrow. The first time I went to jack, you know, shortly after that charity, he said, Come down, I'll show you around and and he put me in his personal truck. And he said, What do you want to see? He said, whatever you want to see, I'll show you anything. And that's amazing. And there's gonna be respect because Jeff's had everything he's awesome as to but you gotta check company like jack daniels get every resource imaginable to you whereas you kind of had no resources and made it work. So there's got to be something that you both can learn from each other. I yes. And he's alluded to that and is very respectful that I make a Colorado whiskey and and you know, that's the thing. I love Kentucky bourbon, I love Tennessee whiskey. I love all kinds of scotch Irish whiskey, but I'm not looking to make a Kentucky bourbon and Colorado. My bourbon my whiskey, my rye are to be done.

56:00 Different big bold, beautiful of my brand there's a few names but one's rugged refined rebellious, we also hard made the Colorado way. And then another tagline is

56:15 write it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Nice like it. So, you know that's what I set out to do this and and it's been amazing

56:25 i mean i think it's it's had a pretty warm reception right and congratulations for coming to Kentucky you know this is it's a it's a big step this nationals feet. Definitely, definitely. And not only that is you know, talking to you about the progression of where it is or where it was to what it is today. It's everything comes with with growing pains too, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So kind of talk about at least Did you have a specific time of growing here that you're like, Okay, like, I wish was just me and the 60 gallons.

56:57 So, the one thing about being a photographer

57:00 Consistently you have to build teams of people especially doing fashion. So hair makeup, you know stylist, model, all that kind of stuff location that was helpful for me in in growing this and finding people that could help me grow it. So I have a team of about 13 people right now. It's an amazing team they do phenomenal work. But yeah, there were there were times and there's still times you know, I'm bootstrapping it. So there's tight times with money there's tight times with barrels not being ordered. panic, you know, bottle panic, you know things like that when I first started that was something I wanted to mention earlier about a palette to get not this bottle but my original bottle which is similar this but this one came along when I could buy 30,000 or promise I'd buy 30 Yeah, promise but this one I could buy a pallet of and my mom had given me a cooler and at some point and enjoy

58:00 Grant is an ounce of gold. And thank you for explaining that because I was about to say I have no idea what you're talking Yeah, it's a South African coin. And so I was making whiskey in that 300 gallon I needed a bottle they were they give me a better price if I bought a pallet or or to buy the bottle I had to buy a pallet and gold was up expensive than and I literally took that Cougar and cashed it in and bought a pallet of bottles

58:28 and was able to put them in that 300 square foot space I built I built shelves and made it where you know they weren't really in the way and it was kind of crazy but so there are growing pains. I mean you know i the most nervous I've been that I can remember is working on this move for this. You know 20,000 square feet. It's It's big. We We won't renovate it and build it out beautiful with for production line facility.

59:00 We're going to move in with what we have now and grow it like I did from the 300 to the 7500 square foot that worked really well. But we have a our model is a ramp. I mean, it's a it's a steep curve. And so we have a lot to get done in the next four years with making whiskey and, you know, there there are growing pains. It is not easy. There hasn't been a day where I was like, Oh my god, I'm not going to the distillery I give up. I'm done from day one to now. There's never that's never crossed my mind. Yeah, that's awesome. At least that means you're loving it. Yeah, I guess it. You don't have to think of the Olsen twins and they still need me. Right?

59:43 Yeah, that's a funny thing. I broke out a box of Polaroids. So, back in the day before digital, you were doing light test and stuff you used a Polaroid back on the camera. So you would take the picture of strobes go off and you pull the Polaroid Wait a minute, and then

1:00:00 like pushing that button every 40 and you peel it and you'd look at light so I have I kept most of those Polaroids I've got boxes of them and I opened one up the other day and there's some just really beautiful pictures in it showed it to a friend and they were like oh my god you got to start shooting again I'm like I don't know that that's happening but I did reach out to a hairdresser friend and a couple of them at the time with the Polaroids and posted on Instagram with it and hadn't talked to them in years 10 years and they're like what's up and it was really great makes me want to maybe try one day and who knows but not union at the distillery was like oh here's a great you know all your photography client car I got a photography clients and you know, bring them to your distillery like wonder now party this party There we go. But these you can get bottle shots done on the cheap, right you can do those. That's the funny thing. I don't shoot my bottle. Really you don't don't okay jars while you're here.

1:01:00 I shoot on with the iPhone for like in situation but to set them up and shoot them. I mean I can do it no problem but I'm a little too close to the product and also it's a different frame of mind and to get in that frame of mind it would take me a few days or week I'm working with the bottles and stuff to get the light and and it's just easier to for me to pick somebody and go I like his pictures and I can direct what I want from there and so that Yeah, I you know you coming from a photography background and you know, we're all kind of like doing a lot of stuff with whiskey and and I remember I talked to somebody about doing bottle photography and I'm like you charge what like to take a picture of bottle i mean it's it's something that I had no idea that even existed before then so it's a it's it's a really cool that you kind of have you can blend a lot of these worlds together and you know how to direct and stuff like that because I'd be like, I don't know a river in the background like you tell me what looks cool.

1:02:00 Yeah, and I have a business partner in New York. Or we were in a retouching company, Russ gun lack. And he, he still retouches. He's an amazing retoucher. And so I sent him stuff all the time. I mean, funny things, but I send him bottle shots and, and I can direct him and I can I can take a bottle, you know, if it was shot in the same light and have him put it like five bottles in one picture very easily and stuff like that. So I understand how to do that. So that's where I, you know, I can direct it and get it done on the cheap. I mean, everybody else that would cost them a ton of money.

1:02:41 But But I did, we were at a tasting and there was an airplane behind me and had a callsign number on the side of it. It's old, you know, World War Two type plane with that block number. And I took a iPhone picture of it and send it to Russ text it to him and said can you change that to 291

1:03:00 Literally 30 minutes later it came back to me on my phone and it was perfect. I'm like Yep, there you go awesome and posted it and people like out to 91 and I also did it this summer on a bowl. The brand on a bull somebody It was like 301 and I asked him to do 299 on it and they're like, I didn't see that bowl with that brand.

1:03:21 It's really funny. That's good to know people I guess. So I guess kind of last question before we start wrapping this up is you know, you've you said 95% in Colorado, you're growing to Kentucky I'm sure that you've got plans to even go beyond their kind of talk about you know, one last thing that you want to kind of leave listeners with as they are looking at another or walk in the store. They see your bottle and then maybe they hear this like what's one thing you want to leave them with? I want them to enjoy my whiskey. There's the funny thing I I drink my whiskey neat. It's rare. I drink it on the rocks, but I I also in the summer, or when I feel like it I drink my bourbon with

1:04:00 Mountain Dew. I drink my ride with lemonade and my only person I know it does as my dad. It makes it it's amazing drink and it's a nice drink summer drink. Yeah, and I want to drink bourbon. I also drink. I don't drink vodka Bloody Marys. I drink rye Bloody Marys. And those are phenomenal. But I want somebody to try my whiskey. I wanted to take them back to Western days and enjoy it and it it's an unapologetic whiskey. It's it's a big bold whiskey, and

1:04:33 I'm really proud of it. The other thing that we didn't talk about is the cage that's on there. So when I was young, there was a the cork and cage cage holds the cork and when I was young, I'd watch TBS in the morning and saturday morning cartoons and then if it rained, the later it got old movies Come on. And there was an old movie where they were transporting nitroglycerin in a wagon, and they had wired all the bottles in

1:05:00 So it wouldn't bounce. And when I started making high proof whiskey, I'm like, we got to wire the cork on. And so that's where that cage comes from. Gotcha. Gotcha. Now we know there's a story to everything. Really. There is my watch. Yeah. My watch is my dad's watch. And every time I shake it down, it reminds me of home. Yeah, go. Cool. Very cool. Well, Michael, thank you again for coming over here coming on the show. And of course, sharing your whiskey with us. I think it's an incredible story of what you've built and the team that's building this and you know, the direction it's going as well. I think everybody's pretty excited for really the future of what this is going to entail for you. Thank you. Same here, Kenny and Ryan. very appreciated to be on the show. And yeah, that's, you know, we have experimental batch called the E. We love to experiment. I love making my whiskey. I love selling it. I love giving it away to people to try it. tastings and even people I meet give them a bottle.

1:06:00 Cuz they'll share it. And I love that. So I really appreciate today. Thank you guys. Absolutely Yeah, no, thank you for coming. It was a true inspiration. I mean, most companies we have on air even if they're new they go out and get big time investments or you know, get a lot of cash flow to back them up and like to hear somebody just go source parts from Craigslist, not kidding. But, uh, just, you know, just wanting to do something and find a way to like, make it happen is like, It's so inspiring to me. I think it's a very cool story and I'm excited for the brand. It's, gosh, the rise awesome. I love the really good things like thanks so much. But uh, yeah, it's, um, it was a pleasure talking to you and hearing all your stories, for sure. I'd be a part of it. Absolutely. And so make sure you follow distiller to 91 on all the social medias. give a shout out as well as your address where people can go and visit 1647 South 200 Street, Colorado Springs, Colorado. And our website is 291 Colorado whiskey calm or distillery to 91 dot com.

1:07:00 calm. There we go. So she follow them. Follow us, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. If you like the show, want to support the show, help us on patreon. com if you like it and you don't want to help support on Patreon, write a review. We love reviews. We like hearing from everybody else as well. So Ryan, go and close it out for us. Yeah, thanks, everyone for listening. Thanks, Mike for coming. appreciate all the whiskey and all the fun stories. But yeah, if you have any show suggestions, feedback, we love hearing from our listeners, because this is who we do it for. And we want to bring you content that you actually want to hear. And so yeah, hit us up and let us know what you want here and we'll see you next time. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whiskey Quickie: Yellowstone Select Bourbon

Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:30:19 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Yellowstone Select. This non-age stated bourbon is 93 proof and $40 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

DISCLAIMER: The whiskey in this review was provided to us at no cost courtesy of Cask Cartel. We were not compensated by the spirit producer for this review. This is our honest opinion based on what we tasted. Please drink responsibly.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

241 - Celebrities in Bourbon and the Current State of the Secondary on Bourbon Community Roundtable #41

Thu, 20 Feb 2020 10:30:16 GMT

On this episode, we touch on three topics. First, we look at how bourbon producers can reach new consumers. Then we take on the new celebrity craze. Over the past year, there have been about half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with bourbons. While we don’t see this trend stopping, we ask ourselves if this is good for bourbon as a whole. Lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It’s a group consensus that we all miss it, but how has it affected value, store pricing, and distributor allocation?

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle them at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about celebrity whiskey.
How do bourbon producers reach new customers?
What about new label designs?
What do you think about celebrities getting into bourbon?
Are celebrities helping or hurting bourbon?
Let's discuss the current state of the secondary market.

0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered how was this made? sure there's the grains in the barrels and all that science that goes into it. But what about the package design, class manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things that you need to know. But what the University of levels online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away from learning from industry experts from renowned spirits businesses like brown Forman, jack daniels and more. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash

0:35 bourbon pursuit.

0:38 Carey is fashionably late for his returns.

0:41 I said he's making a big entrance right

0:45 see, I like this new platform because I hold the power like I actually don't have to put them on the screen.

0:50 Perfect. really sing as actually it's kind of cool how this works. Yeah,

0:54 it is cool. Yeah. Alright, he's here now should Adam

0:57 Can you can you like put his head face like behind a curtain kind of thing or voice? I can I can kick him

1:03 from the studio. He will do that.

1:06 I'll put him in. And then I'll take him out.

1:21 Everyone, it's Episode 241 of bourbon pursuit. And if it's your morning drive, good morning, if it's your daily run, break that record. And if you're sitting at work, let's make this day go by one hour faster. Last week, whiskey magazine presented their 2020 icons of American whiskey awards in New York City, and I'll be damned if we weren't even considered in the running. Who knows maybe next year, but here's some of the names that you might recognize. Brent Elliott from four roses was named master distiller the year Buffalo Trace as the best distiller and visitor attraction. peerless distilling companies small batch Kentucky straight bourbon was named the best Kentucky bourbon While Rebel Yell took home the best Kentucky single barrel bourbon and iron Republic out of Texas as the best non Kentucky and eh Taylor ride took home the best rye while to 91 Colorado whiskey took home the best new make award. And lastly Peggy no Stevens accepted and induction into the Hall of Fame as well. winners from the icons of American whiskey and world whisky awards. 2021 now go head to head and their competition across the globe to figure out who will be the best whiskey in the world. Now we presented in London in March of 2020. The Kentucky distillers Association announced that the famed Kentucky bourbon trail and Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour destinations Welcome to 1.7 million visitors in 2019. And now is celebrating its anniversary with its 21st birthday. Now, let's get into some bourbon economics beam centuri self solid sales growth in 2019. posting a revenue increase of six and a half percent for the Year and beam centaurs flagship brand, Jim Beam had a strong year in the US, where depletions increased eight and a half percent to 5.7 million cases. That also includes flavors variants of Jim Beam, according to impact databanks estimates. Now basil Hayden was another dynamic performer estimated up 37% to 345,000. cases in the US last year in Japan became the largest export market for Jim Beam last year, driven by the high vol craze, Kentucky Governor Andy Bashir announced that Kentucky is leading the nation in whiskey exports, which shouldn't be much of a surprise. The governor made the announcement while filling the 16th million barrel of Jim Beam at Jim beam's American steel house in Claremont, Kentucky, and Kentucky led all states in whiskey exports in 2019 at 480 $5 million. That total marks a 326% increase since 2004. While Canada united Kingdom, France, Brazil in Mexico make up the Commonwealth top five export destinations. Alright, today we've got the roundtable, a show where internet friends gather and discuss a bunch of bourbon popery. And On this episode, we touch on three topics, we look at how brands and distilleries can start reaching new consumers, and what are the best ways of getting your product in the eyes of them today? Then we take on the celebrity craze. Over the past year, they've been on a half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with Bourbons on the market. While we don't see this trend, stopping anytime soon, we ask ourselves, is this good for bourbon as a whole. And lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It's a group consensus that we all miss it. But what has been the effect for pricing store pricing in distributed application, since this is all happened over six months ago. And if you're a Patreon supporter, you got the email yesterday that we're going to be doing a new pilot episode called Extra pursuit. This is a new kahlan radio show format that we're going to test out that is exclusively available to our Patreon community. We hope to see you all mine soon and make it successful to see how this thing's going to turn out. And speaking of things that are happening in the Patreon world, we have two barrel pics that are happening a Buffalo Trace this week. So if you want the opportunity to get your hands on one of these bottles of these private selections, as well as even possibly join us on the pic, go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. It's this community that funds a lot of the things that happened with this podcast, and we're happy that we can bring these experiences like this to so many of our listeners. It's showtime. So here's Joe from barrel bourbon, and then you've got Fred minich,

5:45 with above the char.

5:48 Hey everyone, Joe here again, we enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cast rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Next time Ask you bartender for barrel bourbon.

6:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Right now we're seeing a plethora of celebrity whiskies come out. Most recently Jason Aldean, and Terry Bradshaw have announced their whiskies Of course, last year we had slipknot and Metallica, Bob Dylan, and I got to tell you, there's going to be a whole lot more coming. I'm even familiar with a few of them, that some of which I cannot disclose at this time. But let me just tell you, we should not think of celebrity whiskey as something that is the end of times or a sign that the bubble is about to bust. Rather, celebrity whiskeys just mean that we have right now the attention of all those who are interested in making money. And basically celebrities are like any other business. They're all about trying to make money. And whiskey is one of the hottest games in town right now. course it doesn't help that George Clooney actually made a couple billion dollars off of a tequila a few years ago. And so with the rise of spirits come more celebrities, I believe we should actually reward those who make good whiskey or at least put their name on good whiskey. Here's the thing, this is what we don't want. We don't want whiskey to become the next vodka, where celebrities galore just kind of sign up and they just put their name on it. We want the celebrities to actually be involved. We want them to be involved with good whiskey. And you know, the Matthew McConaughey project with wild turkey is a good example of how a celebrity can be used to improve a brand. Now, we'll see if that ends up working in the long haul, but I kind of liked the idea of more celebrities coming in to the game of whiskey. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook, just search my name Fred MiniK Pape Until next week, cheers

8:03 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. This is bourbon Community Roundtable number 41. So we've been doing this quite a while and we've got a whole lot of good topics lined up tonight. And it's usually the Wrecking Crew that we have here. We talk about some, some culture things that are happening inside of Bourbons, and that, you know, latest news and we kind of give our, our best informed opinions and I guess that's maybe what you call it.

8:29 You know, maybe sometimes it's maybe simpler. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, but that's just part of the process. But yeah, most of the time I get my comments, you know, decided right before the show, just research the topics and I'm like, okay, that's how I feel. I don't even know.

8:49 Yeah,

8:51 yeah, off the cuff.

8:54 That's part of the fun, you know, we've done this enough by now. And I think that's also funny for Ryan and I when we go and we're we're interviewing a lot of people nowadays. They're all like, hey, um, can you all send me like a list of questions that you want to answer ahead of time?

9:06 We're like, No,

9:09 we don't have any questions.

9:13 Like we're just gonna show up and ask questions. This is how we do it now.

9:18 I don't think we had an agenda the first time did we

9:20 forget roundtable? I don't remember. It was very first one that was so long ago.

9:24 That's too long ago.

9:27 I know. I know. But you know, let's go ahead and I think we can we can kick it off. So you heard some voices already. We'll save the our new special guest tonight for last you've heard his name on there before but I'll start with the guy who's always on here, Blake. You can't

9:41 get rid of me of the bourbon Roundtable. I'm Blake from bourbon er. Yeah, always fun to be on. You know. Still, this is one of the one of the highlights of the month to jump on here and talk with you guys. So thanks for having me. As always, you can find me on all the social medias, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Bo you are Bo nr as well as my, I would say newer, or new site that's kind of just newish at this point. That's seal box calm, so es el ba ch s. So thanks me guys.

10:13 Absolutely make sure you go check it out for all your craft whiskey needs as well as pursuit series needs. You can go and get everything ordered right to your doorstep. We always need it. So Jordan, you're up next, buddy?

10:25 Sure. This is Jordan from breaking bourbon, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon calm. You can find us on all the socials at breaking bourbon and make sure to sign up for our newsletter. We're always sending out our latest calendar calendar releases. Is that starting already? Oh, it's it's been going already for for a few weeks now.

10:43 Oh, gosh. You feel

10:44 like it feels like it's it's a good time right now because you're like, oh, like we don't have to worry about anything crazy coming out like stag Junior bash 13. Like that came in when already now we can just relax for a minute but like seems like you guys just want to keep the energy going.

11:00 It'd be nice if we got a break, that's for sure. But the bourbon Gods demand it.

11:04 Yeah. Hey, we got Brian. How you doing, buddy?

11:07 Hey guys doing great thanks for having against Brian with sip and corn on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is sip and corn. You can find me online at either sipping corn or bourbon justice calm looking forward to it.

11:19 Absolutely. And we have a familiar face of the Round Table making his return.

11:25 Carrie

11:26 How are you buddy? Hey guys, thanks for having me back on here if if Blake is Cal Ripken of baseball, I'm Fernando Rodney. I'm the reliever that you call in once in a while and you're really nervous because you don't know what's gonna happen.

11:43 Yeah, I could either be strong or not, but at least I'll look good with my hat turned a little bit to the side.

11:50 It's all a matter it's come sprinting out. Yeah, sprinting out of right field. That's right, people. Yeah.

11:57 This is awesome.

11:58 Well, Ryan as two people still watching Baseball I I certainly have paid zero attention to it but I don't know about you all. Then again, Louisville is not much of the amazing that we get the Louisville Slugger museum. We got the basically the biggest names with baseball here with the equipment yet. Like the city just really doesn't care that much about baseball because we don't have a protein just got to go an hour and a half north to be able to do that.

12:20 Yeah, they stink. Yeah, there's no point.

12:23 baseball's hot right now just because of the controversy. like everybody's talking about it now.

12:27 It was just the astralis conference.

12:29 Yeah, for sure. Which is crazy. If you look in depth at all of the stuff that's come out and then consider like the latest evidence where the guy was holding his jersey when he was crossing, homeboy. I know things like definitely a made for TV movie coming out ridiculous. Lifetime movie come

12:45 Yeah. But it keeps it fun. keeps it interesting. I think maybe like every once in a while, like sports have to do these things like they gotta create something to hype it back up again. Because as soon as it starts hitting this little plummet, you're like, Oh, am we're back up again.

12:58 Yeah, they said this is actually good for baseball bat for the Astros?

13:02 Well, that's true, as somebody's got to be a pawn in the game at the end of this right. So, all right,

13:07 so let's go ahead and start hitting some topics tonight. So the first one we want to do is we're gonna start looking at marketing and trying to figure out really how our bourbon distilleries and producers, how do they reach new bourbon drinkers? And I know that we've we've thrown a few different ideas around here. And I know Jordan, you had had some thoughts coming into this. So how do you kind of feel that distillers or bourbon, distilleries and marketing like how should they be reaching new consumers nowaday?

13:35 Yeah, so I think there's two parts, right? I'll make this short, but two parts. One is through people of the industry and making sure their products get out in their hands and making sure that we're highlighting them right. So for example, heaven Hill just sent out the whole latest batch of Elijah Craig. Right, which was great and everyone's posting bottles up and doing reviews and honestly, that's okay because usually it's a slam dunk bourbon, right for Most part, but other distilleries don't do that right Buffalo Trace released that press release for stag bash 13 they didn't send out any bottles, they just sent a press release. So, you know, I think the distilleries that are getting smart are making sure that bottle is getting hands of different review sites or different people on social media and making sure it gets out there. And then from just a standard consumer standpoint, right i think it's the people that are doing a lot of just non distiller producers right it's who is a fun label, who has a backstory good, right wrong and different, whatever your opinion may be on it. That's the people who walk in I have so many friends who go into liquor store they'll text me Hey, this looks really cool the labels cool fun backstory, you know anything about it? Like yet it's difficult. So is every other thing in your hand on the shelf, right? And they don't know what that means, though. They're just looking for a fun bottle to give us a present or Don't be. But there's nothing there's nothing wrong with decal, either. It's just you have to know kind of who's picking and who's selecting Right. I mean, we all know we've had some fantastic decal barrels coming out of there, but it's just, you know, that was just an example. So it's It's the people are doing it right or making sure they're getting out to the influential folks and talking about it. And then the rest are trying to just whatever the consumer with fun packaging. And that's kind of been tried and true throughout the years.

15:10 So you think they're doing a better job now then? I mean, Fred's not here. We can poke a jab at him then, like buying another Magazine Ad or something like that. But

15:20 I think they got smarter with the dollars and how they do stuff right. And I'll go back to heaven Hill, for example, right? They could just as well put up a billboard and global or anywhere else or they could have put out a huge news spread and bourbon plus or another magazine right whiskey advocate, announcing Elijah Craig barrel proof. Instead what they do, they got smart. Instead of sending a sample that people are viewing, they sent a bottle and you know what it's popping up all over social media, all of our websites and that cost them a fraction of what it would cost to a major advertising campaign. They smartened up the truly half

15:51 I didn't get a bottle

16:00 After bourbon and beyond and like a nice couple week run of, you know, really being on and things like

16:05 that, even years back, right? I mean,

16:10 bourbon blogging is two hobbies. It's the love of bourbon as a hobby, and the love of writing as a hobby. And I've come to realize that only like one of those two hobbies a lot. I like talking bourbon and I liked hanging out with people, but bourbon, but it's just the writing thing. It just inspires me for a while and then it it goes away. But if I finished the unfinished stuff that I have in my blog, I mean, I'd have like, I have like two and a half posts, it'd be amazing. So someday, we'll get back to it. But my question about the marketing stuff, are you referencing celebrities? marketing that or just how they're trying to reach consumers?

16:48 Yeah, I mean, we'll get to that in a little bit. I, you know, I'm kind of looking at, you know, how do we reach new bourbon drinkers? Right. And I think we'll get into the celebrity thing in a little bit because that's kind of like the second segment of the show. But you know, there's another thing that that I think brought up in our kind of private chat and that was, you know, I kind of want to stay on this topic a little bit before I start switching gears a little bit, you know, as we start looking into the clinical influencer realm, right, it's kind of a it's kind of like, I don't know if you guys like the word I feel like I'm like, nasty when I call myself an influencer like,

17:19 yeah, hundred percent.

17:21 Yeah, not good.

17:22 Yeah. Well, but that part is it's true. Right guys

17:24 are influencers though. I mean, you are like, when? Yes, the

17:30 batch 12

17:31 that you can't find anymore and the price went up. Do you know why that one went up? It's because of that guy right there. Jordan? Yes. Why? Yeah, that was definitely a breaking.

17:41 Breaking, but we'll certainly take credit for that. But you know, in our book, and I agree with what Kenny just said and you know, I we don't like the word influencer, I think to us, right? We put a ton of work into breaking bourbon. It's more than just a hobby, right? It's it's almost a full time job at this point is the job of planning job and we work our butts off for that. I think of influencer I think it's somebody out in a beach with a bottle and they're taking a picture. And that's, that's all they're going to put into it right? They're looking at their latest filter on Instagram. And that's how they're influencing folks. For us. It's truly a love and a passion of making sure we get out our thoughts to consumers that when they're new consumers are old consumers going to liquor store, we're able to help them pick out the right bourbon that's right for them. Right. And that's more than lensing. That's that's going out and doing a job to show in your love for the hobby.

18:27 Exactly.

18:28 I think it you know, kind of what Jordan said with how far is the influencer taking it, like, all right, you know, are they writing posts and had this conversation with, with with Josh from whiskey jug about, you know, you can have an influencer who do an Instagram story that's there for 24 hours, what does that really get you you know, is there really an ROI on that, but if they put an Instagram story, if they do a post, if they do a blog post, then you have SEO, SEO, you have backlinks, you have all this other stuff that's kind of building around it and So, you know, I think you almost have to be hitting all those areas to have some kind of influence.

19:08 But as far as which brands

19:09 are doing the best, I mean, you think about I know somebody mentioned this in the chat I think beam does a really good job of this barrel always does a good job about getting beer bottles up to people who are gonna, you know, have an audience and can post them. Heaven hills, come on strong. I mean, I don't Did anybody receive anything from heaven Hill until about two years ago? I know I didn't. So those are a few that I think definitely pop up. And Buffalo Trace seems to be taking the opposite approach of you know, we don't need as as much of this so, you know, used to if there was something you could get a sample it'd be two ounces or something like that. Now, even that seems pretty limited.

19:54 What they're doing, they get so many pictures

19:58 of just normal people.

19:59 Yeah.

20:00 Well wait one day. Yeah. Why would they send to really anyone when just some Joe Biden it has to take a crop shot crop shot just because he found Eagle rare or something like that? Yeah.

20:12 It was revolution that sample bottles too. So there's that.

20:18 I don't know that that sample size really makes a difference in terms of marketing. Because the people that are using you guys, your opinions probably are already into the hobby, right? So you've got the, the new people that they're trying to market to. And then you've got the people who are in the bourbon world who might not look at their brands, who they're trying to get them to switch. So I don't know. I feel like some of it too, is the marketing by us. And I guess we're getting into that part. But the marketing kind of gets into trying to influence young people, right, because you have people who in my mind people in college, first try bourbon if they haven't already, you know, but when you're 21 and you're in college, and you try it and then you know you're having Evan Williams had a full ball game or something and then you graduate and you wanted a nicer bourbon to move to I feel like that's kind of, I really don't know if that's where they're targeting, but it would seem like that would be your market.

21:09 Maybe I'm gonna disagree just a little bit and at least I'll speak for us and not a humble brag, but you know, we have millions of unique people come to breaking bourbon every year. And I guarantee you that the indepth crowd that we get caught up in on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, nowhere near is that high, right? So that means to us, there's a lot of folks who are invested in the bourbon world who go to breaking bourbon. And I guarantee you it's probably the same thing for bourbon pursuit. They're probably picking up a ton of new people who aren't deep in the bourbon sphere. Right? And same with Brian and his book. I bet you have a lot of people are just really into largest into Kentucky history picking it up that part that have no relation whatsoever and who don't know what bourbon pursuit is we're breaking bourbon as. So the audience we reach is actually much greater than than we actually realize. And it's not everyone who's viewing this, you know, round table right now. It's much greater than that. So

21:56 they have discovered that because they realized they love bourbon. Or they're just trying bourbon and saying oh you know I like bourbon I'm gonna find bourbon and people on the internet

22:06 I don't know we ask we ask a lot of folks who write into us for the first time for the emails we say hey how'd you hear breaking bourbon said honestly I was in a liquor store trying to find more information before I dropped 40 bucks on bottle never heard of you guys before but you know it's good so they probably search the brand he searched the brand or the bottle totally don't know about breaking bourbon they're just searching for bourbon they're trying to get into it they're trying to make sure that their dollars right to us. We get so caught up just $200 bottles are in our bottle. Right The average consumer we you know, you need to remember 3040 bucks a lot of money drop on a bottle of bourbon. Right? So that's what they're looking for. Make sure they're spending their dollars wisely.

22:41 Your joke your points really good. Jordan, the people that I talked to in a lot of the presentations that I've been doing now, I don't know they're they're not the bourbon enthusiasts. They don't really don't know anything and I'm having to explain to them when we're doing a bottled and bond tasting what in the world bottled and bond is and they've never had the three that we've got on the tasting. So I think you're right there, there's a lot of new people coming into it. And that's, that's really what the brands are after I think.

23:08 I compare it to, like, you know, picking up other hobby. So if, if I'm looking at wine accounts, I may be falling for a complete marketing gimmick, but because I saw something on Instagram, so I want to try a bottle of wine or like, you know, some golf tool that is not going to help my game at all. But that's I don't know the difference. So I try to find the accounts that I think I can trust and that are giving good feedback. And, you know, just going from there and, like, kind of both y'all alluded to I think we really just, you know, don't give enough attention to the fact that the majority of the bourbon market is not guys like us. It's it's not guys that know what what mash bills are made aware or even care about it. You know, it's like, Hey, I got $40 to spend. I don't want to feel dumb. Because I get this bottle home and it tastes terrible. Where do I go? in you know, I think that's that's probably 80% of the market at this point.

24:10 Yeah, for so another big thing that makes me happy that this is all happening as well as that, you know, shout out to heaven Hill and a few other ones that that sends you full bottles, right? I mean, that gets you a much better Instagram shot than like a little two ounce sample a little cup that you know, kind of comes in and stuff like that. So I'm always happy to get the full bottles. I think that's fantastic.

24:32 I remember loving all bottles because they know I'm just going to like, review it, take a few pictures and then they get the bottle so they think it's the greatest thing ever.

24:42 I remember when Kenny used to get shafted, and now he's, he's on he's he's all the way to Mini.

24:50 I'm saying that.

24:51 Nothing wrong with that.

24:54 Absolutely not. Yes, yeah. So

24:57 go ahead right.

24:58 Do I get to get a point or not? We've had some

25:02 remember, I can put you on mute now?

25:04 Go ahead. No, my first right. No, I totally agree with what Blake says. And I've talked to you about this Kenny before, like we to get bourbon and expanded, we got to go to fringe audiences, like people that are interested in food, or cigars or wine, or like even cooking with green eggs or, you know, smoking food, you know, as there's just, that's where they got to start allocating their money to because people that are nerdy about something, they're going to be nerdy about bourbon, they're going to dive in to whatever they're interested in. And that's who you want are those people that are passionate about their hobbies. And so if you can get to those fringe audiences that kind of tie into what you got going on.

25:42 So the other part of this about looking at, you know, how are they reaching new customers, is we look at label designs and sort of what's happened in the market and on the most recent things that we can think of, of course, is like the new Baker's redesign, right? taking something that was a flagship product, redesigning it, giving it a Basically a face facelift of a label some new bottle new tops and everything like that. Do you all anticipate seeing this as a another trend forward where we can expect more brands to start saying like okay let's let's keep the brand but let's give it a whole new facelift let's break it so you look more younger more energetic anything like that.

26:20 Is that kind of part of marketing one on one anyway is is rebranding your image if if sales are hurting a little bit I feel like that's kind of kind of a standard especially in the bourbon world where it's just a label it just changed the label up in it you know people it sells out and fever like I got pre label stuff for sale and people go crazy and you know the fear FOMO sets in

26:42 or change the you change the proof or double the price to you know that

26:47 I think that's a lot of it too, right? I think it's a good excuse and I'm not justifying this at all, but I think brands are looking for a way to increase price right? One easy thing to do let's relay let's not really what but let's rebrand it right new bottle, different labels. Get a little more upscale 510 15 $20 mortars cost to the price. Right and I think you've been seeing that a lot of brands doing it. Or let's switch from screw top to cork. Let's do little things that make it feel more high end, same bourbon, right but now they're gonna start charging more and somehow people feel it's okay because now seeing the same model with a new increase price they're seeing a new bottle with an increased price.

27:22 Yeah, and there's some people in chat that are talking about how wild turkey is going through a yet another one. I think we've we've touched on this before, like, haven't they done like two or three of them in the past like five or six years of like, just suddenly changing things on the wild turkey one to one label?

27:36 Well, now it looks like they may switch the bottle up completely based on the last one I saw is that

27:42 I mean, I don't know if that's confirmed yet. But they they change everything. They're probably too much. I mean, look at what Rare Breed has six years. And I mean, they, it's it seems pointless. A lot of them are small changes. And then you've got the ones that do the big changes. I think that's where people notice A lot of people aren't going to notice that rare breed has changed four times in the last six years.

28:06 Yeah, I think there's a lot of thoughts on this one, but you've seen a lot over the last few years. You know, Weller had a overhaul, 17 9200 overhaul. lizer crack had an overhaul. And now you know, Baker's been the most recent and I would say probably Baker's was the most successful with it, because I can't like I've loved Baker's for a long time. And I don't know why more people didn't drink it. And all of a sudden, like it comes out in the cool bottle and people are like, Oh, man, have you tried Baker's like, this is not a new product was it

28:39 was it was not

28:40 a single barrel. So that did change. But,

28:43 um,

28:44 but it's, I mean, go back and taste it against some older bakers. And you'll be like, wow, this is really good. I love the new stuff. But I mean, that's a huge win, I think for being because people now love it. It looks so much better on the show. There's more people buying it people realize how good it is. And all they did was change the label, you know, call it single barrel.

29:08 Marketing one on one, right? The wine world taught me how to do labels and we got new bottles and they sell.

29:15 Yeah. You know how many? How many screw caps do we have on the market today? As opposed to just you know, five years ago? No, no, not a whole lot. You know it. There's something about that, that value of pulling off a cork instead of unscrew it. You know, even Weller antique, even after the redesign went to a cork instead of the screw cap. So

29:40 very old Barton. That's all I can think of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

29:45 And now What's the next one? benchmark benchmarks about to get a

29:49 overall that's doing a whole new line

29:50 of benchmark bourbon, too. Yeah. There's a whole new line extension.

29:54 I mean, Buffalo Trace just moves down the line. Right. Let me

29:57 let me assure you we've talked about done in a roundtable been over a year ago, I think that we talked about how they kind of go in the cycle of like finding something and re reinvigorating or reinventing it. You know, like 1792 was a very good example of that in the past a year and a half of maybe even two and a half years now, of what they've done to actually bring out new line extensions, repackaging everything like that, to really uplift the brand from what it had actually been before. So as we kind of continue down this path to and trying to figure out well, what how people are they going to be reaching new consumers and we look at something that we've talked about before and that's celebrities, celebrities getting into whiskey, notably bourbon, you know, there's there's a lot of things in whiskey but you know, this is bourbon pursuit. I think we'll focus on bourbon. And so in the past year, you know, we've had Bob Dylan, there's been Slipknot, Metallica, Matthew McConaughey, and now, Florida, Georgia line and Jason Aldean are now teaming up to create their own. And then also in the past two weeks, I think one that maybe took us all by shock was Terry Bradshaw.

30:56 Like Yeah,

30:56 I was I was I saw that too. And I was like, wow, I mean, Captain Kirk like I understood that one like, but like Terry Bradshaw like really? That's a new one. Did you watch

31:06 the Super Bowl? Pretty sure he was drinking it live during that. During that

31:09 broadcast. We'll talk about best advertisement you could. There's freakin terrible tiles everywhere you look at like watch every Steelers game no matter where they are. It's like there's just everywhere. It's the Anima when you buy McDonald's here run.

31:22 Yep, exactly. I think you know, a lot of its going to be back to right George Clooney is tres amigos. Right? So if you're another celebrity, you have any influence whatsoever and you have a name recognition. If you realize three guys can pull off a billion dollar brand you're gonna try and get in. Right? I think what people fail to realize or maybe not people, right? I think people realize what celebrities fail to realize is that isn't always the case like lightning. That was a lightning in a bottle type situation like Dan ackwards had Crystal Skull Baka since 2007, right and like people know what that is, but by no means is that a billion dollar brand? Right? So I think everyone's trying to cash in on their fame and do it think they're probably not going to see a huge payout, right, they may get a kick out of seeing their name on a bottle of whiskey on a bottle of alcohol. But if they're looking for a payout like the other folks had good luck. I think Ryan Reynolds is the next track to really take a very Jen super far right. I think he's Yeah,

32:16 I think that's a smart move to with the gin route instead of, you know, sure you're targeting a cool market, which I don't know, maybe we're just all wrong. And we're still like, over or under estimating the amount that people care about, like what's actually in the bottle.

32:33 But

32:34 now, I mean, I was texting with Oj leamas about this. And he said, Nobody wants to buy my shoes from a guy or basketball shoes from a guy who can't dunk. But it's kind of different in the bourbon world. You know, it's like you know, what is actually dunking in the bourbon world. So if Slipknot comes out with a bourbon or whiskey, whatever they came out with, like, people buy it, I guess I don't know.

32:58 I don't they buy it though. I mean, yeah. It's growing

33:02 like crazy. There's more

33:03 for me of what I want if they're gonna leave my four roses single barrel alone and I can actually find it on the shelf again great, you know sell it out

33:13 they'll come back and buy more.

33:15 I think I'm a little more indifferent on this one because it's like if that's what what people want to do and that brings more people into the industry and to buy you know hopefully they come in because they want to buy whoever Terry broad shall bourbon and then they're like, Oh, hold on. There's actually people who make this who make a lot of other good products. That's just one more consumer in the door. So

33:39 you're speaking as the guy you know, was sealed box here as the guy who already walks into total line and there's people around the corner and you know, you just want to check out and they all want Blanton's and you're like, sorry, you know, just you guys are driving me crazy here. And they they you know everything is impossible to get nowadays from that standpoint. You know, you don't want more people hobby. But I get where you're coming from too because it's from our standpoint of people who love hobby and love to talk about, you know, love bourbon and talk about bourbon. It's good for us, for them to bring more people in.

34:11 Yeah, I think there's one thing that I really wish that we were able to see in this world is like, if these celebrities really love whiskey and love bourbon as much as they do, like, I wish there was, like, if they were promoting it themselves, like if they were if they were drinking a bottle of Buffalo Trace or wild turkey or whatever it is, and we got, you know, we saw that more often then we're like, oh, my, like, these guys are really into bourbon. Right? Yeah. And making it versus somebody that like, you know, I don't know, maybe a picture service to like somebody drinking a four roses, and they're like, Hey, now I'm gonna start a brand, right? Like, I just, I just wish there was just something more like that was deep into it. They're like it was able to tell a story that would get people like us excited. Right? And I don't I don't think it really gets people like us excited because it feels it feels bad. Like I feel like we're just so naanum a little bit, but the thing is, is like they're not really trying to reach us per se. Right? And and I wish that there was a little bit more something that appeals to the whiskey geek in this category that says like, oh, like, this is why we want to do it because we had so much enjoyment of doing this and this and this, which, you know, you take this and you look at what Fred has done by interviewing the guys at Slipknot, same thing with Metallica. And actually like getting the story of you know, they're like, basically them and why they started the brand and really like what whiskey means to them. Like, I just don't want this to snowball to the point where every celebrity starting to come out with some type of liquor. I mean, everybody's talking here in the chat. Like I know the rock is getting ready to come out with a type of tequila. And it's it's going to continually growing, you know, it's going to grow more and more. However, I just want to make sure that you know, I it sounds bad. I feel like I'm on a bachelor Bachelorette like hope they're in it for the right reasons.

36:01 battlers, which I did have to sacrifice and DVR The Bachelor tonight so y'all are

36:05 well, man. No,

36:08 but I mean like overall like in, you know, Brian, I'll kind of go to you first like, do you see this is like good or bad for the whiskey world.

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37:32 Do you see this as like good or bad for the whiskey world?

37:36 I think it's indifferent. I mean, the the people who know what they're doing and the people who who look at look at you guys for reviews there, they're going to be picking the ones that are worth buying. And I can't imagine that a lot of these are worth buying. So I don't see it as affecting me too terribly much.

37:55 Anybody else? You guys are awful quiet on this

38:00 I feel like I don't know, I gave my opinion of I don't think it's bad to bring more people into the whiskey world. Like, are we pushing it to jump the shark even further? I don't think so, because there's going to be so much whiskey. And, you know, Drake released his own whiskey a few years ago and you know, it's just something that constantly happens if there's money to be made, you're going to have these people who say hey, let's let's throw a big name on a brand you'll be the face of it and we'll handle the back end so I don't think of it as a bad thing you know, if that means that there's more bottles on the shelf when people walk into a total line and maybe they see a name they recognize it they buy it, good for them, but i don't know i don't i don't think see it as something that like kind of interferes with our lane of the bourbon nerd world.

38:53 I know any of it is gonna be good. Is what I'm more.

38:57 How many how many bottles of actually Bad bourbon Have you had four major distilleries? And I'm talking about like,

39:04 stuff you can't drink. Our major dealer is doing rock and roll band releases, though.

39:12 I mean, I think they're sourcing through somewhere. I don't think definitely.

39:18 Do we ever sure any?

39:20 Well, I mean, I mean,

39:21 no, I don't think it's any race. But I can tell you right maybe it will maybe some MGP maybe you know, Barton's and

39:30 usual suspects. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I mean, and you know, the Terry Bradshaw bourbon, it's all from Ozi Tyler right. And I believe it's gosh, it might be a three or just a four year old or something like that. So that might be one of the first brands that are gonna be coming out of OC Tyler and Brian and AC or they're making some faces but you know gotta gotta get understand about like Ozi Tyler like sometimes it gets a bad rap because the only like people pin Ozi Tyler repair tear up here like that's what that's what people my head one yeah.

40:00 Exactly I was a big mistake on their part because they there that Jacob McCall is actually a really good master distiller there and he makes an outstanding product, but they have that black eye on them because of this like Tara peer thing, because it's like, I mean, it's a, everybody thinks it's a gimmick, and nobody's gonna get a fair fair shot. So they're just I think they're actually trying to rebrand and come out with new brands that you know, aren't Ozi Tyler so they can get away from that. But back to the celebrity thing, I think it's good. The more you get it to the, if you will, it's good. If you want bourbon to grow, if you don't want it to grow, then it's bad. The more you can get into common people, it's just the natural progression of any product, the more appealing it is to the mass audience celebrities do that, whether you like it or not. Yeah, that's just that's,

40:44 it's I'm interested in a little bit of bourbon history and bourbon law. And so I've got a

40:51 great book that they can check out

40:53 and really get into it. I'm right there with you guys. I think the more people drinking bourbon, right, whether that's good or bad for people Trying to find bottles it is what it is. But the more people are drinking up, the more money that producers are willing to invest in it right? Big or small, and more. So the more legs and bourbon has to go a long time before there is a, you know, it's a boom and bust cycle. So before there's a bust, and honestly, if they can keep this up, then it's just ingrained in the American culture, right? And then you'll see bourbon out there. Let's be real. You don't want to see a bus like flavored vodka, what, 15 years ago and everyone's drinking flavored vodka 20 years ago. Let me tell you how many of you are walking through the store. Like I think I'll pick up some bubblegum vodka to drink tonight. just doesn't happen, right? If you drink bourbon now and other people see you drinking it for 1015 years have a hold on long enough. That's cultural that's generational. Right? And then we actually have bourbon taking off and just becoming more mainstream, which is fantastic. I mean, I mean, this

41:47 is this is a good discussion, because I think you know, as we it, there's a lot of things that are happening in the comments as well. People were saying, you know, like, basically there's Who was it? That was Hank Williams Jr. Our Booker was in a hurry. Williams jr music video with Dreamhouse say that there's I forget I saw something else but basically saying whoever was was was pushing dickhole a lot back in the day as well. And so I think celebrities do have a role in this right as as an advertising mechanism and stuff like that getting into it be I mean, in Mila Kunis has been doing it for a while. And that's but that's just the advertising side of it. I mean, we're talking about actually like having a hand at creating something that is a product, which is completely different, in my opinion, right? Where I think they probably have a lot more skin in the game, they've got their dollars invested into it. And so it becomes something that is a cornerstone for them that they've got to make. They've got to make successful and so if they don't, then it could end up being like Trump aka right who knows right? Where it just is no longer on the shelves or something like that.

42:54 But latronnik baka

42:57 you're sitting on it. I think it's worth something nowadays. And speaking of worth something now, I guess that kind of leads into a it's, it's always a topic we love and we hate it the second at this at the time, but that is the secondary market.

43:10 Nice transition. I know.

43:13 I try to find ways to make it fun and interesting without like Ben and myself is like, oh, they'll go people that always talk about the secondary market. But it truly is like one of those things that we're now Gosh, five months, almost six months since the since the kind of smack down if you will, yeah, really had this still exist?

43:33 No, I'm kidding.

43:34 Well, that's kind of what we're going to go into.

43:36 July. July was when the group I was running went down. So it's been over six months.

43:41 Yeah.

43:42 So there we go. I was

43:44 I was thinking it was like sometime like September timeframe or something like that, but it was before then then then we're definitely over six months. So I guess we're going to kind of talk about the current state of the secondary. Me personally, I made I made a prediction on our last of 2019 episodes saying that 2020 was going to be the kind of rebirth of it where a new Facebook groups going to come up this whole thing was just going to fly over like blah blah blah blah, who cares? And so far I've been completely wrong that has not come to fruition it is continuing to groups either be shut down, or there's just new rules and saying like no posting of dollar signs or anything like that, but there has not been a group that has started to break you know, really come up and make a name for itself. at the same exact time bottle spot has suffered a casualty, which was something that I did not see coming which I don't know I kind of took me by surprise. I don't know about you all but right now, I would say I would, I would say the current state of the market is if we're going to go like red yellow green like it's gonna be in the pink area. right it's it's an innocent a no bueno. State still,

45:01 you know, it's certainly maybe not life support but close to life support, right? It's nothing's really popped up. I think two things. One, Facebook got really good about shutting down groups where you saw a bunch pop up right after the secondary, the bugs shut down and they just kept smacking down other ones. I think a little bit of Facebook doing better about patrolling things. I think it was a little bit more of people out there saying, well, Now's my chance to report everything right. Little bit, a little bit Facebook heroes going on, we'll call it. But I think it's a loss. I think it's lost the community whether or not I mean, I never bought or sold on the secondary. But what I love doing was just seeing the latest trends, what people were really after, right? I love seeing new consumer to consumer supported caeser to a different bourbon. They just decided to get into the week before, but it really showed what people were after and what brands were becoming hot, what brands were pulling down what was coming and what people were really looking forward to. And that's just gone from just a pure, you know, gamesmanship just a fly on the sidelines watching that's gone and that's a shame. You know, and I think it's also a shame to for everyone who now Bye cases and cases of bourbon they just started get into thinking they flip it easy. Sure. Hope they like drinking it for sure. A lot of parties torn up you

46:09 still got all those diamonds? Yeah,

46:12 I'm good. I do diamonds.

46:16 I don't think the markets really that much. It's still there. It's just more spread out. There's more places there's more rules. Let me win one market goes down another one comes back up. It

46:28 it still exists. And you can't stop it. I mean, it's not going to exist is the thing and and it'll, whether it's Facebook or someone finds another platform or whatever it it'll exist. I mean, I wish it to Jordan's point. I wish you could kind of see it from the sidelines, but it's still going to exist in so

46:50 I think

46:50 it actually has been affected way more. You know, I'm kind of with Kenny where it stopped and slow down way more than I thought it would you know, I thought it would always exist. Didn't it does to an extent, but it definitely took a big hit. You know, I think just the fact that all these massive groups were shut down. I don't know if there's a group that is in the, you know, is their group in the six? Well, not in the six figures in the five figures or, or even 10,000 plus members that hasn't been shut down? Probably not. So, you know, it definitely takes a big hit. Now, it's like, you have all these, you know, people just selling well or 12 or bottles that really shouldn't be sold. nobody's doing that as much anymore because it's not open. It's not as big of market so all in all, I think it was a pretty surprising change and how it all went down. So I still think it's a detriment to the bourbon world because whether you love it or hate it, that was a big part of just watching, you know, what was getting sold, what were the trends, you know, older bottles, and Yeah, it was just kind of fun to see that stuff be sold. You know, I'm kind of with Jordan like I didn't participate, but I liked seeing that what was going on so a little disappointing.

48:11 I guess. I'll go ahead Carrie. Sorry.

48:14 No, no, no, go ahead and do that.

48:16 Okay, okay.

48:18 We need our Ryan Come on.

48:19 I know we didn't need more Ryan.

48:21 I'm talking about the secondary market I'm kind of relieved about it because like, I'm not doing like mega balls and all this crazy like, gambling and stuff like in trying to like, but it's also because it is a bummer like you used to you know, that was my night like scrolling through seeing what people are buying what they're selling what they're going for. I do love the yard sale stuff. Oh my god, it cracks me up like that keeps me entertained. But uh, yeah, I think it's, you know, I'm indifferent about if it's detrimental to bourbon. I mean, it's detrimental to us. But as a I think bourbon is just like we were talking about earlier we forget about the common consumer and they have no idea that's exist. Still. It doesn't affect them. It's still growing. Besides that, but I do think some brands like really valued from the secondary market Buffalo Trace being one of them, I'm not really sure that they would be what they were without it, and I don't and there's brands like old Scout, there's no way they would be anything without the secondary market Vlogbrothers all these MGP brands, nobody would have gave us, you know, two flips about them if there wasn't a secondary market out there. And so, I think it it does hurt us but I think people got in it early enough to where they got educated about brands that they didn't know existed and now it does suck for the people that bought bottles, but I don't know do you think like so? I'm gonna give a shout out to my boy Guthrie at toddies. I know he's listening in but do you think like liquor stores that can sell that stuff now? Does that help them? You know, with pricing or does it hurt pricing?

49:52 Well, I think in my opinion, this is this has become a basically a guessing game right? Somebody says, Oh, I got this bottle what's it worth? I mean Blake we had this conversation the other day he came across some some pre pros and he was like, Hey, what is this worth? I were like shit I don't know we don't have a database there's no there's no information and so it's like there's no way that we can really like pin a price down any of this stuff anymore. You know, and thankfully the is the even though I mean I think the bottle blue books still there because it's ran by some of our really really good friends of the show as well. But that might be the only indication of the value of the anything that's even out there in the market anymore. And even at that is still like it's a varied range, right? Like a each Taylor tornadoes anywhere from like 1300 or 2000. Like that's that's an all over the place, in my opinion.

50:46 Yeah, but if you look at it's still what's what blows my mind is that if you look at Pappy 15 despite everything that has happened to all the markets, it's established value is still the exact same as it was before all of the markets crashed. hasn't changed. It's still the exact same.

51:02 Again, I think that'll be

51:04 better too though. That's the one you can talk to anyone who knows nothing about bourbon but they might know they might not even know a bourbon is but they know that Pappy is a whiskey and that they want it. Right. It's just something that people want that they can't have bottom line.

51:16 Well, I think that's where I think you have like your your solid, you know, cornerstones of the bourbon bourbon secondary that won't change, you know, antique collections never going to change. mixers are going to change.

51:30 You know, where 17 changed a lot.

51:33 Well, yeah, no, no, I'm saying that they're, they're always going to have that secondary market. But I think it's the lower ones. You know, it's the Weller, twelves it's the victors 10 years, it's, it's those that will just kind of say, Go away, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that just means that more available. Market is more available, so

51:51 means you can go to the store and actually find it.

51:54 Not unlovable. I

51:56 think I still can't find it here.

51:58 Well, I think we still have a lot time until that goes into, you know, into Karis point as well, there are still smaller sex where this is happening, right, like just smaller groups and just spread around a little bit more. And you can't be in a mall. And if there's only 500 people in it and you get a good deal on something, then that's what it is. And maybe you drink it, and you hold on to it and you find somebody else you try to sell for the same exact price. I don't know, whatever it is, this is just it's been basically a collapse of the Empire, if you will. And so now you've got all these, these little armies that are trying to I wouldn't say try to take anything over, but they're definitely trying to keep something alive.

52:35 And the one point I would agree with Ryan about the part that I think hurts the average everyday person is if you wanted to trade a bottle, you know, used to be easy to kind of figure out values of what you had, and what you wanted and make a very similar kind of trade. You know, you're staying in the hobby, you're not trying to make money from your stuff. You're just trying to trade to try different stuff. And I think from that aspect, the limited secondary market definitely makes it harder to do that to reinvest in your hobby?

53:02 So I think that is that is one drawback of it.

53:05 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, miss those trades.

53:08 Yeah. Well, that's, that's for sure. But so there is also another thing that I kinda want to bring up and this was a an article that Chuck Cowdery actually had written I think, Jordan or Blake, whatever kind of took me on to this as well, because I know I read it. However, you know, this was this was Chuck's sort of summary is that saying that really the the secondary market doesn't matter. There's no objection to it or anything like that. He's just saying that basically, all it's really doing is just helping out a small limited subset of brands. But if you want to just go find larceny or anything else, then it's really not a big deal. And so, really, if you wanted something that you want to find good to drink, there's plenty of stuff on the shelves. But if you want to go ahead and play that game of what it takes to get there, then you know To find these limited bottles, then you get to play that game.

54:04 So I I'll chime in cuz I think we might have thrown that out there. I appreciate. I appreciate Chuck having his own viewpoint, right. But what I found ironic about that article is Chuck said, that's a setup for like, you're a moron.

54:20 Don't say it, I will.

54:23 But here's, here's what I found super ironic about that article. You know, he says it doesn't impact but a small few brands and he lists out a bunch, right? And then he's like, but there's other good bourbon and drinks such as this that you know, they're good weed and Bourbons or stuff like this. And he lists larceny and other things. And you know what? I think that takes into account what Chuck may like, right? He might think is good, but there are truly people out there who've been drinking Blanton's for 20 years or Waller you know, well, there used to be my house bourbon, I would buy a case at a time, right? Just to make cocktails or throw parties and put it out just regular Weller and now I can't find it and that's a shame. Right? And you know what, I liked it that bourbon. I know other people out there like plans They weren't selling or flipping and they just like to drink right? So the people who truly like to drink the brands now the secondary market didn't make a big difference right? And I'm glad that Chuck things you know, there's other Bourbons that might replace it but for some folks they don't get replaced even drinking the same brand for 20 years and it did impact them in a big way. So again, I respect Chuck having that opinion Dr. Ruth unknown now one debt whatsoever, but you know, it's he threw it out there so I'm gonna throw back and say, you know, it's that's a false that's a fallacy.

55:26 Well and the other reason he's wrong as he points out Rittenhouse is you know, why would Rittenhouse be $11 a few years ago and why is that gone up? It's because with bourbon all all ships are rising when you when you increase the ceiling on what people will pay for a bourbon that is popular or the people want to get that gives you room to raise the price of the lower ones and that's why we don't have heaven Hill six year bottled and bond anymore. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to have that anymore. When a distillery can make so much money, so much more money on it or so much more money from Rittenhouse it's it all rises. And that's that is a direct relationship to the secondary market.

56:11 I was gonna say we do still have it, we just have it at 30 bucks more, right?

56:15 Well, that's right. It's there. But it's it's because it's it's you've got secondary market that has increased demand. And it has increased ceiling of what people are now willing to pay. I mean, 10 years ago, I could get seven different Bourbons for about $25 that were fantastic that are now all over $100 on the secondary market and you can't find at least in lieu of on the shelves.

56:41 Yeah, speaking of that marketing, heaven Hill, bottle and bond six here. Yeah, got a new label. And now you can't find it on shelves anywhere. That's right.

56:51 Man, that's because of the secondary markets a direct relationship. That's where I think it

56:55 I think, where we probably we undersell You know, the the vast majority of the market a little bit with with not bringing them into some of the decisions that we're talking about. But with this, I feel like there is a small percentage driving the market and prices and distilleries are looking like that. We have countless examples of them looking at the secondary, and bumping prices up to that. And you're, you're trying to tell me that that doesn't drive a lot of like these rebrand names we're talking about and all this other stuff, like there's no way like, that's exactly what's behind it. Because ultimately, for a lot of us, this is fun. We enjoy it's exciting. But these are businesses they're trying to make the most money they possibly can. So, you know, I, I would have to disagree with Chuck on this one to say, No, you're kind of missing the point that while the the rudder may be a small part of the ship, it's still what steer it.

57:57 Right that metaphor down, say that one over and write

57:59 it They're very true.

58:07 Yeah, so

58:08 I'm gonna leave it at that.

58:12 No, I think that's those are all really good opinions because I and I tend to agree with the group here that I really wish that it was still around only because of for that sake of either seeing trends and everything like that the other side of it actually going away is I feel like I have a lot more time on my hands I feel like I can scroll through Facebook I I find myself getting into like high end watch groups now instead of like that's on my feed, and then somehow also joined like a hype group. And so there's like all kinds of like shoes that are coming on. I'm not a sneaker I'm not a sneaker person at all, however,

58:45 and this is

58:46 all kind of I'll bring this up because I find this fascinating, right? Like, we talked about flippers and everything like that, and how they're the scum of the earth and Battleblock in in the shoe world. It's like hey, that's just par for the course man. Yep,

58:58 yeah. Ended amazing. A world where it's par for the course. I hate

59:03 to promote another podcast on this podcast but go listen to the it's a podcast called business of hype and it's the guy Jeff staples who's like, big into the streetwear world and in the it's produced by hypebeast. But then you start to realize like, oh, like we're not doing anything new. This is in so many other like industries and like small niche communities and like the bourbon secondary market isn't something new. But But yeah, it's, it's crazy. If you look at all that stuff, especially with sneakers, like there's a whole other world there's like stock x which tracks the price of them and all this other stuff and like we're actually a little bit behind in the perfect world. And when you look at some of these other industries, so

59:49 so Kenny you looking at like vintage 40s Chuck Taylors or something.

59:56 No, no, just these like crazy like I like Yeezys and Please, like, I don't know, like pale pink Jordans that came out I don't really know what they are but it blows my mind where everybody's just like I'll I'll pay 350 for any pair you want in any size. I'm like,

1:00:11 What are you gonna do with the size five and a half of

1:00:13 kale Jordans and

1:00:16 that was money I guess

1:00:18 I guess there's a market for everything but that's that's definitely a world that I don't know much about but hey, it's at least that's it's just it fascinates me that that is one world where you know flipping is just that's just par for the course like that's just the nature of the game. And people are okay with it. And there's there's two guys that are like these guys paid $1,000 for a bottle of bourbon.

1:00:44 Once they opened it, it was worthless.

1:00:46 masses. econ one on one it's supply and demand. You know it's

1:00:51 good. You can't rewear bourbon multiple play. You can resell

1:00:53 shoes. You wear them

1:00:59 well Uh, I think that hit on some good topics tonight. So with that, let's go ahead and we'll we'll wrap it up. So fellas, I want to say thank you again for coming on the show tonight because we had a we had three topics but we spent a good amount of time and kind of hitting a few different things here. So was fantastic to, to kind of kind of look about that and I see a lot of things coming in the chat here. They're talking about like, I came from the sneaker game, you know, like, I used to collect sneakers, so it's it's fun to see that these are these worlds are always kind of coinciding maybe when one thing's hot, you kind of go to gravitate to one thing but before we wrap it up real quick

1:01:32 cuz Yeah, cuz Carrie's not writing anymore. So Carrie, what's your what's your latest bourbon trend? Where are you into since no one's heard from you and forever.

1:01:42 I like drinking. I'm

1:01:45 a fitness guru. Some guy said it looked like a moose. So I'm just gonna go. You know. Life is a is a lot of family right now. It's kids. It's family. It's friends. It's Enjoying bourbon it's I've listened to you guys and your podcasts and check out your websites and all your stuff so honestly I'm just having fun with life right now and when I can I'll write something and I'm on Twitter and Instagram when I can but you know just it's it's nice to just step back and spend a lot of time with the family and all that good stuff and also I didn't get to mention but you know, I met you guys in person in September for bourbon and beyond it was it was a really cool experience. You guys are as cool in person. Most of you are as No, I'm kidding. It was it was a lot of fun getting to meet you guys and have fun with you guys in real life. So I appreciate you bringing me back on tonight.

1:02:41 Absolutely. Love your brother. For sure for sure. All right, well, Kerry got you got your your farewell there Brian or Jordan gonna go next. Jordan.

1:02:52 This is so once again wrapping up. Thanks again for having us. Jordan, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon. You can find us on all the socials at breaking bourbon. Of course breaking bourbon com Check us out for our near daily updated bottle Release Calendar

1:03:05 Alright my turn Yeah, I'm gonna give I'm gonna give a shout out because this is this is part of what it's really all about I mean internet friends right that's that's why we're here and hopefully I don't get in trouble for covering up the microphone there but that's that's a great pic guys really been enjoying it tonight Brian from sip and corn you can find me on the socials that sipping corn si PP apostrophe n c o r n and also bourbon justice.com

1:03:34 Thanks guys. Brian LinkedIn send me a picture or if you can get

1:03:40 the sticker email he

1:03:45 should get you a sticker

1:03:47 bottle you guys have my glad you guys are enjoying that.

1:03:54 Your bottles coming Carrie Oh good. You

1:03:57 like that what someone you were gonna get me that never came Something else some sort of kick. You did not send me the new riff that everybody was moaning about on the show. I'm still looking for my new riff to like

1:04:09 your Oh yes.

1:04:15 All right, is it on me?

1:04:16 Yes Sure is. Yes. Save your seal box career right now knocking

1:04:21 over people actually pay that. No,

1:04:26 I'm Blake from bourbon are always fun to be on here. Carrie great to have you back Always. Always a good time and yes check me out on social media is Bo you are Bo in our calm and as well as CEO box calm if you're interested in some of these bottles that these guys are talking about. It will get them to you a lot faster than we have gotten them to some of them so that box se LBA ch s. Thanks for having me guys.

1:04:54 Absolutely. Always love having you guys on. It's always a one of the best attended roundtables. I think We're up to like 120 something people this time so fantastic yeah

1:05:06 and I call it the carry

1:05:07 effect

1:05:10 everybody in cashiers North Carolina is tuning in man all three

1:05:13 of us down here I have everybody upstairs tuned in I turned on like eight devices and just signed to give you smores if you're watching

1:05:23 awesome well thank you again everybody for for joining make sure you follow all these guys and social media follow us as well. bourbon. Sorry, yeah bourbon pursuit Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and tick tock, you'll find us on Tick Tock is we're trying new ways of marketing. I know you all hate it. It's so much fun. Just get on there. Yeah, we're not doing renegades right now. We'll do that later. But anyway, again, thank you all for coming in. And thank you for everybody that was sitting here joining the chat live asking questions, being a part of it. Being communicative and responsive and actually, you know, having a lot of good playful banter back and forth in the chat, too. Always great to see that happening. And if you liked the show you want to support us patreon.com slash

1:06:05 bourbon pursuit.

1:06:06 With that. Thank you, everybody, and we'll see you all next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Baker's 7 Year

Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:30:37 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Baker's 7 Year. This 7 year old bourbon is 107 proof and $70 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

240 - Toasting, Charring, and Selling Oak with Paul McLaughlin of Kelvin Cooperage

Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:30:42 GMT

Today, on the podcast we talk with Paul McLaughlin. He might not be known to you yet, or his cooperage, but the story he shares and how they hone their craft is like no other. We had the opportunity to check out Kelvin Cooperage and get a behind the scenes tour of their barrel building process. It’s amazing how everything is still very labor intensive and they use machines and tooling that have been part of their process since the beginning. We dive into toasting on a natural fire and what makes their barrels different from other cooperages around the country. We also discuss the economics of a cooperage and how they are trying to satisfy the growth of a world-wide demand for used barrels.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about faulty pipe systems at distilleries.
Where are you from?
How did you get into the barrel making business?
How did you get into bourbon?
How does Kentucky compare to Scotland?
When did you join the family business?
Was it hard to have your brother as your boss?
How is your process unique?
What is the reasoning behind toasting?
Tell us about the natural fire.
How long does it take a new cooper to get the hang of the process?
Do you rotate positions?
Do you have a high employee turnover?
How many used barrels are you buying per day?
What other barrels do you get besides bourbon?
What's the craziest barrel you've made?
Tell us about selling barrels in Asia and Japan.
Let's discuss the economics of barrel making.
What is your quality control process?
What makes your cooperage appealing to customers?
Is it harder to make a 25 gallon barrel?
How do you see this business growing?
How do you source oak?
How do you determine pricing?
What about secondary finishing?
Where do you see the business in 10 years?

0:46 it's a tough job in the summer like jumping. They're gonna smell like 10 huge fire, scared chiller.

0:53 I feel like I'd be like, keep my arm here.

1:08 This is Episode 240 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny and I've got this week's bourbon news roundup for you. Woodford Reserve is releasing its annual limited edition Hyperloop expression. Woodford Reserve batch proof. This year it's bottled at 123.6 proof and this expression is part of the annual masters collection series. Woodford Reserve is proprietary batching process for this release is done by blending barrels into a batch and bottling the whiskey at its actual proof straight from the barrel. The batch proof is crafted using the same grain built in process as Woodford Reserve. And this limited edition collection is available in select us and global markets with a suggested retail price of 129 99. There's a bill working its way through a Olympia that would address what seems like a monopoly on selling liquor in Washington State and it's House Bill 22 04 in 2011, the state liquor stores in Washington State let private businesses sell alcohol, it came out of initiative 1183. But some big corporations like Costco in some grocery chain stores seem to get the bigger benefit out of the initiative because in order to sell spirits, you needed to have a location with over 10,000 square feet. A new bill would actually let smaller businesses sell spirits. And last week that bill passed out of the house commerce and gaming committee on a 10 to one vote. So soon you can get your bread, milk, beer and bourbon at a convenience store across Washington State. And Australian couple stuck on a quarantine cruise ship with cases of Corona virus on board have managed to get their wine delivered by drone posted on Facebook by Jan and Dave been skin on February 7. The couple provided an insight into the life on a quarantine diamond princess cruise ship off the coast of Japan and more specifically Getting wine onto the ship. The Naked Wine Club received the request from the couple who wanted to know if they could get their wine delivery while stuck on a ship. And to everyone's surprise, they accepted. The couple posts stated that two cases of wind were delivered by drone to the ship and said that the Japanese Coast Guard had no idea what was going on. I don't know about you, but having bourbon delivered by drone is something that I can start getting behind. A Tokyo restaurant chain has opened up a small pub in one of the city's busiest train stations. But it has a robot bartender serving drinks to commuters on their way home from work called xerocon. Robo tavern. The bar is located in Tokyo is I keep a train station and is owned by your own gataki a company that operates a chain of casual restaurants for after work drinking around the country. This pilot program will run for about two months. But here's the kicker consumers will first pay for the drinks at an auto I made a payment kiosk and receive a QR code of the receipt. you scan that receipt at the robot, and it takes about 40 seconds to pour a glass of draft beer, or a little under a minute to deliver a cocktail. But also, the robot has a set of cameras built into it screen to monitor the emotional state of customers tracking whether they're happy, or if they're growing impatient. So look out bartenders, the robots are coming. vending machines that dispense spirits are becoming more common around the country, but mostly the establishments such as restaurants or bars that already sell alcohol. Anheuser Busch InBev recently introduced beer box for use at concerts, sports arenas and music festivals. And back on January 31, the first District Court of Appeal in Florida overturned the state's 2017 denial of a residential condominium to sell beer and wine in vending machines. This was originally met with criticism from several traders including the beer industry of Florida, Florida beer wholesalers, so Association in the Florida independent spirits Association, but the court struck down the divisions order and that nothing in plain language. afforda law prohibits the sale of alcoholic beverages through automated dispensing machines. So who knows, that can get your bourbon soon through vending machines. Now today on the podcast, we talked to Paul mcglothlin. He might not be known to you yet or his cooperage. But the story he shares and how they hone their craft is like no other. We had the opportunity to tour Kelvin cooperage and get a behind the scenes tour of their barrel building process. It's amazing how everything is still very labor intensive. And he's using machines and tooling that have been a part of their process since the early 1900s. We discussed how he got into the family business of running cooperage from Scotland to Kentucky, and how he dives into their process of toasting unnatural fires are really what makes their product different than any other to purchase around the country. Then we dive into some of the fun part about the economics of the cooperage. And what they're doing to satisfy the growth of worldwide demand for used barrels. Now, make sure you also follow us on social media. And you can see some of the pictures and videos from our visit to Kelvin cooperage. And if you aren't a supporter of the podcast on Patreon, I encourage you, please go and check it out. In the past two weeks, we've released two Elijah Craig barrels, a 1792. foolproof and a willet seven year ride that we all selected with our Patreon community. These are now all sold out. But you don't want to miss your chance to get your hands on the next one. So view all that we have to offer a being a part of this community@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you're listening on Apple podcasts right now, make sure you hit that subscribe button because you're probably missing out on all of our bonus content. Every Tuesday we released a two minute podcast called whiskey quickie. And if you aren't subscribed, you won't see the bonus content that we post But hey, if you're listening on Spotify or I Heart Radio, you're all good. And thanks for being a listener. All right, let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

7:13 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Our Bourbons have won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Use the store locator at barrel bourbon calm.

7:26 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Listen, it happens sometimes we buy a bottle of bourbon we get home we taste it, and it tastes like musty corn or stale potato chips or drywall or some type of plastic or chemical. And we just completely dismiss that brand. Whether it's new or something we've been tasting for a long time we taste it in that moment. We're like yuck, I don't want it. Now, I've been doing this long enough to know that there's a lot of pieces that go into making American whiskey from the time That the whiskey goes into the barrel, the time it gets into your bottle, there's probably hundreds of factors that could influence the flavor. Things that you don't even think about. Like for example, there was a distillery that recently found hunks of corn in their pipe system. So as it was, they were pumping it into the steel, they found little hunks of corn that were getting stuck a kind of like a collar part. And what would happen is, is that corn got moly, and it started spewing out all kinds of unwanted bacterial flavors and notes and it took them a while, a few bad batches before they figured out the cause of it. In fact, when you go to a distillery and they're on shut down, you can't take a tour. Chances are they found something like that. They find it quite frequently. Very recently, I was at a distillery I'm not going to name who was because it's a new distillery. And right before their bottling line, I learned that they had this PVC pipe before the the whiskey got to the bottle. When I was tasting it out of the barrel, I was like my goodness, this is fantastic whiskey, especially for young distillery. And then when I tasted it out of the bottle in their in their tasting room, it was absolutely different whiskey I tasted this really rough edges plastic note. And I told the distiller this and he said, Well, you know, it could be this PVC pipe that we have here. And I was like, I'm not telling you that it's that or it's not that all I can tell you is that I taste plastic, and he changed it. Now, look, I hope that changes the flavor there. And it was indeed the plastic that was causing that and that distillers no longer going to have to worry about it. But the reason why I point this out to you is we tend to be very critical and very judgmental about the whiskeys we drink and we tend to stay focused on things like warehouses, mash bills East but the fact is, there's a whole A lot that goes into making whiskey and those mechanics, those repairmen, all the people who touch every single inch of that distillery, they all make an impact on the flavor that you taste. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or my website, Fred MiniK calm until next week. Cheers.

10:28 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Ryan here on the Shively side of town the lively Shively but our local owner, but I mean this is a this is a part of town and in not only that, just as it's just on that level, but you know, really the topic today is talking about one of the biggest factors that goes into contributing to the flavor of the whiskey flavor of bourbon. And that is the barrel in itself. Yep,

10:55 distillers like take all the credit but it's the it's the wood it's magic that happens we outside of that and, and, you know, we were just walking around the plant and you know, it's it's always humbling and awesome experience to see just you kind of forget how much labor is involved in like, from barrel to bottle and like you just get an appreciation and like so now every time I want to say a bottle sucks, I'm not going to say it because I just saw a bunch of guys sweating working their asses off and like it's really cool to see that, you know, what really is one of those things that there's just so many hands involved in it.

11:29 Yeah, and we're going to talk more about some of the process and what we just saw. We just took a tour of the facility to kind of get some context of, of the situation. And yeah, I mean it was it's a doing wrong, there's a lot of machinery involved, but there's it's not as heavy as automation is like a bottling line now, there's still it's a very hard labor as process there's a lot of quality control and quality checking that goes into it. And And not only that, as we'll talk about the fire and it's very unique compared to a lot of people with inside of the industry here. Of how How they toasts and how they chart barrels and how it is going to derive a distinct profile at the end of day for two.

12:06 Yeah, and I know why our guest wears black shoes. Walking around. Kenny had some Chuck Taylor white Chuck Taylors ons like those are yet

12:17 so we just had our guest dr in there. So let's go ahead and introduce them. So we have today we have on the show we have Paul McLaughlin. Paul is the CO owner of Kelvin cooperage So Paul, welcome to the show. Thank you.

12:27 Thank you for having me.

12:28 I love having you here. Absolutely. So before we kind of get in talking about the business and talking about barrels and stuff like that, let's talk about you. Did you ever growing up I mean so by the way if if people didn't catch catch on you have an accent right so slightly Yeah, so you're not really like the sap like really deep South Alabama, from Shively? No.

12:51 No, so we I grew up in Scotland and my family there had a small cooperage mainly repairing barrels for scotch whiskey industry so it was a pretty small operation. So I've been around barrels all my life and swore I would never work for the family business. So was the name Calvin. It was Calvin Coolidge up yet. So my dad started Calvin cooperage when he was young service apprenticeship when he was 15, and then started the cooperage when he was about 2122. So, you know, had a good run with with that. And then in the early 90s, we realized that it made sense to repair the barrels in the US before we shouldn't have discovered it was a very simple idea, but it was quite revolutionary at the time. So we was this because a lot of stuff just ended up being too damaged by the time while you're shipping bad would, you know, freights expensive so why not maximize your freight costs by shipping on the barrels that are ready to fill without needing to be worked on. So that was kind of the genesis of our move to Kentucky. So we came here or my brother came here. Kevin is cooler with me, came here in the early 90s and started out during repairing us bourbon barrels and send them back over to our customers and Scotland. That was right around the time that American oak was being just kind of rediscovered for wine barrels. So we started making wine barrels and that was where we learned how to toast and treat wood the right way, you know, slow toasting and everything. And then of course, craft bourbon came along and we jumped in

14:35 with two feet into that

14:37 is a lot Why did you say you would never jump back into it? And then why did you jump?

14:42 Why would you do anything with with the Merrill's you know, working with my family, you know, I know that that's a tough dynamic A lot of times when it's proven to be at times, so I wanted to avoid that. Unfortunately, the way I avoided it, but by becoming a lawyer A few years as a lawyer, I would have done anything including working with the family. So 20 or so years later here, I am still very cool. Yeah.

15:09 Okay, so let's, let's also talk about it. So your family was was already doing this for the scotch whiskey industry. Correct. I'm assuming that, you know, in growing up over in Scotland, and people probably say the same thing about us being in Kentucky. I mean, I guess whiskey was was probably pretty common in the household and Oh, yeah,

15:26 yeah. All was a blended scotch. That was just the standard, like bourbon is here. Yeah. You know, that was all people drank. Although growing up, it was more of an old man's drink. You know, that's certainly not where I started out.

15:41 Yeah, we're just start out with it. Well,

15:43 you know, playing a lager. Yeah.

15:46 Yeah. And I still like a pint of lager.

15:49 Was there a turning point for you when you said like, I can, I could probably get on this whole whiskey train to when I moved here.

15:55 Yeah, I found bourbon much more approachable than then. scotch whiskey. You know, to start learning about whiskey much more drinkable. And what was what was the thought process in your head did that because, I mean, we've we've had scotch before and you've got such variations of single malts. Yeah, we've got Pete's and non Petit and then but then like you got the corn side of it that brings this sweet flavor. So what was your kind of? It was just trying bourbon when I moved here, I'd never really drank it before. And everyone was drinking it. So I thought well give it a shot. Yeah, everybody join them. Yes, I might as well and I got local and it was good. You know that that was the light bulb was like, wow, this this stuff is good. It's got some complexity. It's a bit more interesting than just a beer or wine. You know, it's a nice change of pace. What did you What were your first thoughts when you came to Kentucky and like, how did it compare to Scotland? Well, yeah, like, I moved here from Southern California. So that was a culture shock. You know, I was living on the beach in Southern California working as a lawyer. So coming into This environment here it was in San Diego. Yeah. No, it was a big change. Yeah. But you know, I'd been in visited so I knew I liked Louisville and I like the the kind of the countryside you know, the rolling hills around here remind a lot of people of Scotland and I felt the same. So you know, and there's you know, friendly friendly people terrible climate but but you know it we it is getting raging whiskey though because that's the only thing and for seasoning words so it works. It works out well. But no, we've loved it since we've been here. You know, my my kids have been born and raised here. So we're, we're all in what's awesome.

17:41 So So kind of talk about the genesis of of the of this cooperage as well because your brother came here kind of started it and then when did you say like okay, what was that was the turning point when you said I'm ready to start

17:53 joining the family business. What year was that? thought came in 2001. Okay, so I've been practicing law For four and a half years at that point for a big, big international law firm doing kind of soul crushing business litigation, mainly petty discovery disputes. So, look, young partners, which was what we were all aspiring to as beginning lawyers. And they were all pretty miserable. So I thought, why am I Why? Why am I aiming for that? So my wife was, was working at the same law firm as me. And we both just said we need to get out. So family business here, we're

18:33 ready or not? Yeah,

18:34 yeah. So

18:36 yeah, let's say So you started here. Now, was it hard with your brother your boss at first, or did you kind of like how

18:42 did that so that's all part of that. family dynamic? Yeah, I was a bit hesitant. older, younger, he's seven years older. Okay,

18:51 gotcha. Yeah. Younger,

18:54 would be really and he also served as apprenticeship and Scotland. So he's a he's a fully qualified Cooper, which I'm not and which he reminds me of.

19:07 Yeah, there's some fun dynamics going on.

19:09 Yeah. So talk about that different dynamics, what it like you said your brother's the cooperage. What do you bring kind of to this business that maybe you're trying to figure them? Yeah.

19:22 You know, we have a great time running it together. It's a very relationship driven business. You know, you'll have seen that with the people you've talked to, you know, we're all kind of collegial. We've got very long term customers. So we have a great time. And it's an interesting bunch, especially this new kind of craft whiskey. It's brought in a bunch of very interesting, entrepreneurial, different people. All of them have a really great story and you know, they're great fun to work with.

19:51 Were those relationships that before you came on board or were you having to go out and like, knock down doors be like,

19:57 yeah, I want your barrels are You know, you know, and that's what we tell some of the younger people here. So it hasn't always been this way. You know, whiskey wasn't always booming. So yeah, we did have we had times where, you know, we couldn't sell barrels and we had to find new homes for them. You know, we were knocking barrels down and shipping them to China for flooring. You know, they were selling them for less than $10 a barrel, a US battle, you know, which people can't imagine now. You know, they're in such high demand. So yeah, I mean, we definitely go through cycles. Yeah, yeah. This one's just been a really good one for a really long time. Yeah, yeah. Nobody, nobody has podcasts on bridges when you're in a downturn. I went the first probably 18 years here without doing any interviews at all. No one knew we were here knew no one cared. And we've had you know, podcast Video Productions radio shows, you know, you like

20:54 just leave me alone.

20:56 Let me do my work. We are known as a novelty for a while. numberless done. Yeah,

21:02 very cool. And so kind of talk a little bit about, you know, the process here and how it's a little bit different from some of the other ones we've we've had brown Forman, we've had independence Dave on the show, and kind of talk about like, where the process what you do how it's a little bit different hats you need to get anybody else. And not only that is you're doing both ends of the spectrum. You also are getting barrels, you're also brokering and doing a lot of sales, too.

21:26 Yeah. So on our new barrel production that the big difference between us and some of the ones you mentioned is scale. We're tiny compared to independence Dave and brown Forman. So we're not nearly as mechanized, so is a lot more physically labor intensive, intensive. A lot more hands touch the barrels. So we are you know, on a really good day, we might be able to do 500 barrels, new barrels, which sounds like a lot but you know, if you think of other cooperage is doing two and a half to 3000 Today dejenne idea of the scale that I mean, heaven Hill fills 1300 barrels a day. Exactly. Yeah. So we can't keep up with something like that. So, so the barrels we're making, we're doing them a lot more physically intensive, our toasting and charring is all done over natural fires. Using that wine lesson, we learned about how to treat the world with with long, slow toast. Only once that has a toast layer in there. Do we lie the barrel Tatchell ignite and char. And we really believe strongly in that. That toasting process adds maybe 20 minutes to the time the barrels on the fire. So that is a huge constraint on our production, but we're not willing to give that up. We could double our production tomorrow by cutting that out and the two minute gas fire barn but we're not going to do that there's no guy anywhere near these battles

22:56 yet kind of talked about your reasoning behind the toasting as well because I know that you know brown Foreman's typically always known for toasting their burials to independent stage not as much. So how to talk about your, your idea of, of white toast.

23:09 So the idea for me and again comes from wine barrels is your toast layer is an additive layer. char is an extractive layer, it's like a carbon filter. So it's going to extract some of the undesirable young flavors that you get from the new mix spirit. Whereas the toast layer is going to be additive, it's going to add those nice sweet American oak notes that we've all kind of grown to love that kind of, I always describe it as marzipan there's kind of enough He ormandy my listeners are very familiar with Mars a friend, Fred mineva, lovey Mars band, but that's what we're going for. And it gives it that kind of gives it kind of that middle palate that you're looking for fills out in the mouth. And you know it when you smell it, and we smell that toasted barrel back there, and I think you all going to immediately A lot of people describe it as campfire, toasted marshmallows, I definitely get more of the marzipan note, but that's what we're looking for. Once we have that, then we do the char jars important, they're going to interplay, the char in addition to doing all the extractive work, obviously, it gives the color as well. So we want that interplay. And as the spirit expands in the hot months and goes into the wood, and then contracts in the winter, it's going in and out of all those nooks and crannies we create with the alligator char, and it goes all the way into that toast layer, and then back again. So that that's it's the interplay, toasts and char is exactly what we're looking for.

24:42 Yeah, that always been the process and your family's, I guess making a barrels or is it

24:46 something when we were doing wine barrels, it was all about a slow toast, okay. And that's what we learned and we we play around with that on ways to slow it down and you know, do different things. Extend the toaster, get deeper penetration We're applying that to whiskey barrels.

25:03 The natural fire is an interesting aspect of this and I've never seen a natural fire. That's cool. Yeah, exactly. I mean it's it's something that it is it's something that I it almost that the equipment was something that is very reminiscent of a campfire. I mean, like these little metal kind of like tube things that you put in kind of harness everything in there and you kind of you kind of control it. When you bring a Boston button here.

25:26 Like, do you like the perfect

25:28 hovered over? Yeah, yeah. And so kind of talk about what the the differences in in going with a natural fire versus somebody. And that's mostly what the big the big guys do is they have a an automated system, the barrel setup, you count down, it's like three to one and then the run you see this massive like flame come up, and then it's there for eight seconds, 15 seconds, whatever it is, and it's done. So kind of talk about flavor characteristics or imparting of that, like During the HR process, because we sat there as the toasting was happened, and then you also said, watch this guy, he's going to speed it up, right? So kind of talk about, like, what that is like when the charring happens.

26:11 Yeah, so the natural fire, we think are important for a few reasons. Not not the least of which is, its sustainability. We're using our own offcuts, so we're not wasting that would when we shape ahead, we generate the little offcuts of white oak, that's what we burn. So we like that standpoint to it's a bit more sustainable. But we do think it adds some really desirable flavors, like we discussed kinda like drilling a steak on a gas grill or a exotic or the charcoal. Yeah, everyone. Everyone has their own preference. In terms of what we do though. You'll notice there was no timing and no temperature controls back there. There's nothing Yeah, a lot of other people are trying to remove the human element from this kind of make it idiot proof or something. We want a human element. We want our guys to be looking and smelling especially, we want them to know when they've hit that sweet monster panda. And then they let it Ignite. So we've kind of made a conscious decision to not have any timing or temperature controls there. We want the human element because these guys have been doing it for years.

27:17 Yeah, as they say, it's a very unique process and actually watching it happen because yeah, typically, this is all something that is on some sort of automated belt system, but no, I mean, it's literally guys yelling the barrels over and hand putting them over top of the fire. Yeah, and they kind of like stepping back a few seconds letting it do it, but it's a tough job in the

27:35 summer I jump in there. Yes.

27:38 Can huge fire scare chiller? I feel

27:41 like I'd be like keep my arm here today. Yeah,

27:44 yeah. Yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah, yeah, it's um it's good in the winter tough in the summer. So how long like you said these guys know what they're doing? Like how long do you think it takes a new guy to kind of get the feel for it or the one of the guys on the phone or yours today as well? relatively new, it's maybe his second week on the fires. You can tell he's jumping around with it and compared to the other guys, yeah, no longer so a couple of months, ya know, if you can last the summer it'll be all right.

28:12 And so I guess that kind of goes into like an employee rotation is it is where is somebody coming in? It's like, I don't want to say it's like a Ford factory line, but it actually is a factory, right? And do they have one responsibility? And like, that's all they do for their time here, or is it kind of like, okay, like, we're gonna rotate you around. So we everybody kind of has, yeah, we just and we

28:31 don't rotate a ton, but everyone can do everything. So if there are backups, everyone can filter by and clear the backup. So we have a couple of floaters, but most everyone has an assigned position.

28:43 Yeah. And I guess because it's so labor intensive and like you want to keep that human element.

28:49 I do Paul's yard. And we, you know, labor is hard to come by these days and I cut my own loan for example, I can find anyone to do

28:58 it. So So how talk about The labor you know, because manual labor is not like the most appealing thing these days is, you know, most of our guys are 15 plus years with us. Okay, so we have very, very little turnover. And that's key for what we do. You know, the some of them are 20 plus years. So that's been really a great boon for having that stable workforce.

29:20 Yeah, absolutely. So So kind of when talking about back to the business a little bit in regards to scale, we've been talking about like the newly built barrels. I want to talk about a little bit of the sourcing aspect, kind of like, what is what is the magnitude of barrels that you have coming in per day that you're buying on the market from distilleries that you have relationships with, right, and then sort of where does the journey go from there?

29:46 Yeah, so use barrels are coming in from everyone, all the major distilleries and a lot of craft distilleries to would do about 400,000 a year. So they're coming in constantly. It's a constant flow that we need. Most of those are going to Scotland and Ireland, the US barrels but a lot of them are going different places to anywhere. They're making spirits. So are going to Asia a lot to Australia, especially down to Tasmania, which has got kind of a burgeoning craft whiskey market. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's your next trip. Maybe.

30:22 That's my idea. What is their whiskey called? whiskey

30:27 scotch bourbon. Yeah, there's a

30:31 fulfil, put it on the bourbon pursuit credit card. Yeah, funny down airline miles. Exactly.

30:35 So they're going on 40 foot shipping containers 210 barrels to a container. They fit perfectly as if it was made to hold barrels. And they're going all over the place ready to fill so they open container doors, roll the barrels off, fill them right away. That's the idea. And you know people love they use bourbon barrel they know it's only been used once they know it's American oak. They It's got that nice sweet bourbon flavor in it. So it's it's a key taste component of scotch whiskey Irish Whiskey not because they've been doing it for years. And so when somebody is or when you're buying these barrels from somebody I think we had talked about earlier. Is there is there a sweet spot of what you want to be able to purchase? We just need them fresh. You know, the there'll be a mix of different age barrels in different locations, but we just need fresh, not where you're out barrel or 20 now, okay, now, not really the only people that really question that are beer guys. They're looking for something special. Yeah, a lot of times we can't tell what spin in the barrel if it comes from a big distillery. You know, we don't know what run that was or what label it was.

31:47 And I would imagine that you're not putting that much attention to sitting there trying to decipher stamps on the top of them either.

31:54 Yeah, no, we're cranking the they're not sitting for long. You know, they're flying. Georgia.

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33:21 and so you also not only just get bourbon barrels talk about the other kinds of barrels that you have coming in because you know we've we were good friends with with Bill and other folks from for gate whiskey which I know that you've had a hand in helping them launch their products and they got some unique barrels from you as well so kind of talk about that process of so you know, we're we're always tapped in to people who have different interesting barrels you know, Sherry or port that they've done some some finishing with. So we'll bring those in when we find them and find new homes for them. So like before day, I think we find some x Sherry I think they were For that first release they did

34:01 it's like x Sherry x rum like

34:05 and you know and we smell that barrel it tasted it sounds great. And then we have people like, you know copper and kings are always looking to do not strictly bourbon I know but you know they they will try anything with a barrel, any type of barrel they've got really interesting collaborations going on. And then people like barrel bourbon that do a lot of blending, always looking for interesting and unique barrels. And a lot of the beer guys like to do that too. So, really we've had all sorts of barrels come in from a whole different places

34:36 talk about some of the craziest ones you've seen.

34:38 We made we did we we called it a zebra battle for kobrin Kings where we took new staves and use staves and alternated them out the barrel, Justin, we've taken a red, Melissa, you know, you know what, like the outcome of that was or is it still still still awaiting DVD? Yeah, you have to be patient. As you know, and then we've taken a US red wine barrel and I use white wine barrel and alternated those days. We've done we did with hoppings Kings again and we did a phoenix barrel we called it where we took one of their old Sherry barrels, we took two old cherry barrels, we knocked one down and cut the wood up, use that as fuel for the fire, and then shaved the other one and recharge it over that. cherry wood. That's where the Phoenix name came

35:31 from. He's I've seen the Phoenix barrels from from from that I had no idea like what the connotation was, or

35:40 was it? Yeah, so you know, we say to customers, anything you can think of, we'll try it, you know, because we're always learning and interesting for us.

35:49 Has there ever been one that somebody came with an idea and you're like, man, we're not going to do that.

35:54 A lot of the ideas you can tell are marketing driven where they were looking for something different. So St. barrels the age of underwater don't think they'll be much oxygen exchange through those staves. One didn't get too much fun. Yeah, so you know, you can usually tell when it's marketing driven as opposed to, you know, distiller tasting driven

36:18 the pirate ship going across, you know, in a shipping container on a on a ocean liner or whatever boat they get, you know, like that would Jefferson's ocean sounds like it's salty. Did barrels pick up any song? Yeah, unfortunately

36:29 the they're empty but yeah, I mean and the Jeffersons was a cool one too. Yeah, we did those barrels. And that was a, you know, make sense that, you know, the rocking and the heat is going to do something different.

36:43 Yeah. But these are also going and container ships. So hopefully they're isolated and sealed to a degree where it's not Yes, it's not being right. You're not getting too much sort of manipulation to it. As its as it's making. Joking

37:00 went right

37:02 on point.

37:04 So you we've talked about scotch. We've talked about Irish whiskey. What about like, Asia and Japan? Like, are there? Is there a huge market that you're selling there too?

37:14 Yeah, we send a lot barrels into Japan,

37:18 into Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar, they're making tons of whiskey all over Asia. And we've done a lot of oil. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And if they all start drinking whiskey, it'd be really good.

37:32 Yeah. I mean, I guess the, it's always it's always funny to talk about, like, it's in me, it kind of goes back to just global and economic trade to how it's actually cheaper to buy barrels used here and then have them shipped all the way across the world than it is to actually have your own local local cooperage that are in like some of these countries. So kind of talk about like, the economics they're like, because you you've had to in your brother had to help build grow this business to really what it is today and start you on cooperage and you know that the man hours you know the real all the ones bobbing for new charred oak barrels, no

38:13 place. Yeah, that's a great rule. You know, a lot of these places don't have oak, you know, so that's a huge obstacle, right? You know, they just don't have a supply voke American oak is great because it's growing everywhere right now. You know, so there is a good supply. So that's your first hurdle. And then obviously, the labor is a is a big deal and trained labor and equipment, you need specialized equipment. So we use the ship a lot of us barrels knocked down, we've knocked them down, lay them flat on pallets and they'd be reassembled in Scotland. I've heard about that happening to that space delay disappeared because there's so few Cooper's and Cooper just left in Scotland, so there's no one left who can do that anymore. So that's a big obstacle, as well. They just aren't skilled. Cooper's to the same degree. Sir. Once once

39:03 you don't think people you're knocking them down you're like, Okay, one to the name numbering the stays like this out. It's got an order but now it actually takes like,

39:11 Yeah, but either like an Ikea box. Yeah.

39:12 And there's no direction and some places. The we did number the stage but it's still hard right and never get them tight again with specialized equipment and knowledge.

39:24 Yeah, I mean, even going through there and watching the process of you know, first actually having somebody Oh, you mean you have everything that comes from using the planning to knowing exactly the grade and exactly the angle of all these different stages need to be. So that's actually that's probably step five of the process yet everything between there, but then yes, it actually comes to the person where he is pushing or looking at eight to 10 staves at one time and knowing exactly like it's a it's a game of Jenga or a puzzle and I'm playing you watch new battles being done which the slaves are straight on to you. Berlin you're doing it when I heard it. It's that much harder.

40:03 Yeah and then David probably likes as well or do you think

40:06 it's harder harder to actually physically manage on the straight stage you can make stand up with curved one it's it's trickier.

40:15 Yeah. It's It's It's like putting together like a pile of bricks. It felt

40:19 like when you return something out of a box, you're like, how did this damn thing?

40:23 You know exactly. Then you're like, no way. You'll never get it. And exactly,

40:28 yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the economies in itself, but I always it did make sense to say let's just break come on down. We'll ship the ship, the hoops will ship staves and then reassemble over there. But now you say it. It's like yeah, once once you do have basically because we saw the process of what it actually takes to bend the wood where you steam it and then once in steamed and it's and it's kind of like an imperfect form that it goes into a machine where it actually does it, it bends it and then somebody sits there and puts the first coupon. You put the Second, third hoops on and then from there, it starts going through more of the, the toasting and in quality control process after that, too. Yeah. So also kind of talk about the quality control because that's it's always a huge factor of making sure that your customers are happy, right? Knowing that you're not going to be shipping out a barrel that's going to be leaking. Yeah, because we've we've had barrels, you go to the workout the Rick house and you're like, nope, shut this one's empty. Yes.

41:25 A nightmare. Yes, we do an air, air and water pressure tests, we pump about 20 psi of air into the barrel and we have a few inches of water in the bottom. So if there are any leaks will see them bubbling out. If they're small green leaks or not or something we might be able to do a quick repair with a wooden smile. Otherwise, if it's something more major, like a poor estate or something, we'll take that Steve out, open the battle back up and do a repair. You know, we're pretty conscientious about that because we have to be you know, everyone's making a good battle. Nice. So you can't have a winner there.

42:01 Yeah, I scared the shit out, man. They're like, those things and like the bug just pops off is like

42:09 what happened? Somebody give me

42:10 alert next time. Keep on your toes. But yeah, for sure. Yeah.

42:14 So talk about some of the your customers and, you know, we got a lot of local brands looking at Yeah. And why they chose you over somebody else or, you know,

42:25 we are I think there is a an attraction to having a local cooperation. We have a lot of local customers that like the fact that we're nearby, you know, it's efficient. And also, if there are any issues were right here enough, they need a barrel. Quickly. We can we can do it. We can help them out. A lot of them opened up during the barrel shortage and they couldn't get barrels anywhere. So they chose us. Yeah. Right Place right time. Right, exactly. But, you know, I think that local aspect is kind of an old fashioned where you would have a local Cooper local cooperage that you work So we do very, very well with Louisville distilleries you know the you know, rabbit hole peerless angels and directors all those guys are very good customers coppering kittens I mentioned as well. So you know, those are all great and that for us getting feedback regularly is really good having access to the spirit as it ages, you know being able to taste it is great for us to make sure we're doing things right.

43:28 What you mentioned age right there talk about because I'm not too sure how many other products that are out there that have high age statements of them were Calvin Coolidge barely kind of talk about some of those because you name some of them that you did, and some of those are kind of like less than four years old. So yeah, is there anything that is is beyond that at this point,

43:46 um, what peerless is bourbon will be for.

43:50 And then we do have other customers we have customers overseas that are doing longer, extended aging, and some finishing as well with are new barrels and are used barrels. So people are to all sorts of different things. We, when craft first started taking off, we were doing a lot of 25 gallon barrels, you know, kind of half size and people wanted quick aging. They wanted to get product on the shelves, start some cash flow running. So we were doing a lot of 25 people seem to have graduated up to 50 threes now, which is kind of everyone's preferred size. There's something magical discounts on it has to be like

44:32 maybe 30. That's sort of Yeah,

44:35 we're getting there. It was proposed and there was a big backlash. Yeah. So I think there's still comment period on that. But so we were doing less and less 25 more and more 50 threes. There's something magical about that. And I think people now are kind of seeing less young whiskey on the market. I think people are have the wherewithal to be patient and wait Three, four years.

45:01 From a from a process point of view. Is it more difficult to say okay, we're going to do a 25 gallon barrel run versus saying we're just gonna standardize on 53 and call it a day. So

45:11 it's 25 so tough, you know, they're smaller, they're physically more demanding, you're bending over a lot more. So 20 fives are actually more expensive than 50 stories just because we can make fewer in a day Yeah.

45:25 And that commits and now it makes sense why peerless is so damn good at three years old. Your barrel?

45:30 Yeah. You know, and then some of them did release early earlier than they thought they would. Because of the battle because I don't think it's that toasting. Plus john. Yeah, on natural fires, I think it does speed things up a bit for if you want that, that option. So it gives you a distill it a bit more flexibility.

45:51 So now I just kind of like the wheels are kind of turned to my right here. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to like your your your brother and your father. And starting this. I know that they had had apprenticeships in and doing Cooper jiying and stuff like that. Now it was a lot of their stuff in just repair.

46:11 Yeah. And then Scotland is typically repairing us barrels.

46:14 And then So at what point who was who was the mentor taught anybody to say, this is how we build barrels. This is how we're going to do things

46:21 would be my brother kind of figured on his on his own. Yeah.

46:26 What kind of like YouTube videos

46:30 for YouTube, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how he how he went about that. That, you know, I think part of his training would have led him to that, you know, they do a lot of training on different sizes of barrels and different techniques. I think he would have just figured it out. I'm sure there was a lot of trial and error in the beginning that happily out. I wasn't here for

46:55 I'll swoop in. Yeah, let me know when you got everything.

46:58 Yeah. Sit Back in and run a business at that point right now. Absolutely. And not only that is you know, I kind of want to talk about the growth of like, where do you Where do you kind of see this going because today you know, you talked about that you know, it is a smaller cooperage and some of them are out there. However, you know, we took a we took a tour there's, there's barrels just entering and leaving like constantly it's it's a it's a constant flow. And I'm sure there's gonna be a point where you think you'd be busting at the seams Do you feel that that

47:30 that point coming and and what could possibly be the Yeah, we've been feeling that for about eight years now. And we just keep rolling with it you know, it's been an incredible boom whiskies been on not only bourbon, but scotch and Irish whiskey, which is a big driver of our US barrel market. You know, we were grew up in Scotland's so you learn to be pessimistic, so we expected that and every day No, but it just keeps going. So knock on wood Yeah. It keeps going.

48:01 So I mean, is it so you're just kind of keeping the regular turn going?

48:05 Yeah, you know, we're always looking to grow. If you're not growing, you're losing ground. So, you know, we're upgrading equipment all the time looking at new markets all the time. Making sure we're securing enough oak all the time, you know, it's a constant, constant battle. Yeah, talk about securing a little bit because I would imagine that you know, it's not like the new construction of a house market where that's probably a lot more demanding than what it is to get, you know, Oak for for barrels, but kind of talk about how sourcing would plays into a lot of it. You know, it's tricky just because the production capacities increased so much over the last few years, these new mega Cooper does keep being built that, you know, China's got a lot of barrels and need a lot of states. So, competition for the stave logs is fierce. We work with four or five stage Mills that we've worked with for years. And they're pretty loyal to us. They're typically second generation businesses like us. So there's a lot of commonalities. We work well together. So we've we've enjoyed the first shortage, we were able to keep going and grow our production. So we're hoping that we're well positioned to keep doing that. But you know, competition for those logs. It's It's tough. prices are going up. So and then if you have a wet winter, and you can't get into the forest, that complicates matters as well.

49:28 I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah. We just went there too. Oh, yeah. Yeah,

49:32 yeah. And it has an effect on getting logs at the forest. So you know, you have a bit of seasonality and shortages, which you have to try and plan for. Do prices reflect that as well. When you when you're trying to find an open market like as in as insane like, oh, sorry, we couldn't get there. So our logs are our staves are now x versus y. Yeah, the state die. Pants price increases on to us, we have a hard time. montoro

50:02 typical now business and so when you when you talk about just prices in general so Ryan and I we want to go and we want to want to buy barrels for for whiskey brand and this could be anybody that wants to start a new brand and they want to come to you kind of what's what's where do you start off like how how do you figure out? Is it 10 barrels? Is it 100 barrels? Yeah Where do we catch you at breakers or baseline? It's just no

50:26 glams Well, we we have customers that buy one or two barrels at a time and we've customer to buy 10s of thousands at a time so you know we run the gamut. No order to smaller to large.

50:38 It sound like a hater man.

50:43 But what's what's an average cost of a barrel. It's just a run of the mill. We are on a new barrel. We are not the cheapest producer out there. Because vol volumes are smaller and our barrels different so we're you're over $200 a barrel with us. Yeah, and you know, you can do under 200 other places. And we know that we don't try and compete on that lower price. And because we're not making barrels for the big legacy distillers we're making for craft guys.

51:17 And you feel like that's a good niche to kind of carve out in regards to that because you can, you can kind of create something that's a more of a unique spin on on the typical

51:26 Yeah, and it's more interesting for us rather than just one trip down to Boston, so and all our products in one fell swoop, you know, that's not very interesting.

51:37 It's like a good thing, and it's a bad way I'm sure. I'm sure it keeps it interesting. The other thing it's kind of like, Man, it's a lot of phone calls. Yeah,

51:43 exactly. Yeah. And a lot of freight and shipping logistics, but you know, that's fine. Kim's been busy. Now. It definitely keeps you busy. I'm sure sure we get a good CRM database. People everyone was not a customer.

52:01 Mine's all an Excel spreadsheet. That's how I work. That's a Google Sheets. It's our we're the same way. I have to deal with 2000 peoples. Okay,

52:08 I gotta get a hybrid system to keep track of them all. I'm sure Calvin's not far behind that, too. I mean, it's, it's true. It's a, it's a growing industry. And, I mean, even if we're looking at a lot of the bottles and tables around here, you've got a lot of customers. And it's not it's not just the big brands, it's it's people that are trying to carve out a new place in the market. And so you do have a lot of people that are trying new things, and I know that you're, you're helping them do that. So kind of give us your take on the market in regards of secondary finishing, because I know that is, you know, you source a lot of these girls, and some people look at it as a as a way to kind of make that differentiation into the marketplace to

52:50 Yeah, I think it's a great move for bourbon. Some, you know, they've been doing it in Scotland and Ireland for a long time, kind of that blood Tradition. And I think this finishing is a part of that and extension of that. And I think it's a good thing for, you know, people over here to be experimenting with, you taste some of the stuff that's coming out, you know, that forget we mentioned before that taste great barrel Bourbons, different expressions. They're all something different. You know, I think it's a great day, Jeff Taylor.

53:26 Yeah,

53:27 yeah. So you know, I think it's great. And it gives us something interesting for us to be involved in something different. So we like that.

53:36 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, you've got, you've got two sides of the market here. You've got you've got the people that look at it and saying, Oh, it's a non distilling producer. They want to they want to cover up they want to mask you know, whatever it is that they're buying. I kind of looked at as the other side to say, as a non distilling producer. You can't just come out with something that is just like everything else.

53:56 Yeah, you can't. You can't get away with untransparent you know, people expect to know what's in the bottle. And so you have to tell them, You can't i can't hide it anymore. The way people were doing, you know, six, seven years ago. Yeah,

54:12 as loving, it's a much more savvy market out there. You know, there's even people now that they go to distilleries, and they go and look at where cast is, and, and they'll see the Kelvin Cooper's logo on there. Yeah, and they're gonna know it, they're gonna understand exactly where it comes from, like, so. So the name is getting out there a lot more. All these podcasts are

54:32 like, every week, you

54:35 know, and it's definitely cool to see that and see the growth of what's been happening, you know, not only just to the growth of, of your cooperage, but just to the bourbon industry as well. If we start looking at 10 years down the line, when you kind of see Calvin at that point.

54:53 That's a tough one.

54:54 I've been here for what 18 is that

54:56 I don't know where the market will be that that's the tricky bit Yeah, you know, will we still be booming? Will Scotland and Ireland still be booming if people keep drinking will be fine? But it's a tough one. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know what the market will look like next year. But you know, we're, we're gonna know. But 10 years is a tough one. Yeah.

55:19 I don't know.

55:21 So the nice thing is about, you know, you get to win. There's the distillers they have to forecast like even farther down the line. So the nice part is you get the money, like right now. Somewhat some way because they're like, here's the build it today. So tomorrow, yeah,

55:37 yeah. And then wait for payment. Yeah.

55:40 I know that part. Yeah. That 30s they kill you sometime? Yeah, it's

55:44 longer not exist in this industry.

55:48 I'm sure. But you know, I wanted to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was

55:53 my pleasure. Thank you.

55:54 I mean, it was really for us and giving us a tour of the operation the facility because I I don't think that you're open to the public for a lot of people just to come in and look at it.

56:03 Oh no, we're not for obviously. Yeah.

56:05 Bring your black sheep.

56:07 Yeah. Yeah makes your flip flop. Yeah make sure you send the emails way beforehand. Yeah, you come with some steel toed boots. Yes nothing because it is. It is an actual factory. It is a it is a

56:17 working for profit. cooperage

56:20 Yes. Exactly. Yeah, there's, there's no Hey, everybody, grab your heart. Let's go ahead. station number one over here. No, none of that. No, but like I said, it was fantastic able to do that. In again, give us the idea of not only the scale but the craftsmanship that goes on here. It's it's not a it's not an automated line where you're just pumping stuff out just to pump it out. But instead there's there's a lot of detail that's paid attention by the people that are better actually taking care of it day by day. So thank you again for doing that. If people want to know more about Kelvin cooperage online social media Anything like that How did they find out more about battle bridge calm? There you go. Yeah,

57:04 easy enough and there's some videos on there to get an idea of what we're doing

57:08 and if you need if you need barrels he already told you the price so yeah, just take that

57:12 multiplied by whatever you need on the ground and do the math man. How many we need?

57:17 We've got them will load your car up.

57:19 Yes. I got my truck good.

57:21 I don't come with a Honda Civic. That I can tell you. We put them in there before

57:26 yeah. Oh, yeah. How that workout type

57:30 ratchet strap. Yeah.

57:33 Yeah, very cool. Yeah, it's, it's like I said in the beginning, I mean, we've been other cooperages. It's so automated. This is like truly like an art like you can see like the individual craftsmanship and each barrel and it's like pretty cool. Like

57:46 to kind of see that all stepping back in time.

57:49 It is it is it's like amazing and it like and now when I drink a glass walls all I will vividly remember all those, you know, all the work and everything that's kind of gone. In into that glass so no it's a very much appreciate giving us the time and thank you opportunity to see everything and glad business as well and hope it keeps going well for all of us. Yeah, otherwise we won't show up again.

58:14 For sure. So make sure you check out Kevin Cooper's calm and you can find out more about them if you want to follow us of course bourbon pursuit on all the socials. And as well as if you like the show, you can help support it be a part of our community patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Again, thank you so much for joining us and we'll talk to everybody next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Maker's Mark RC6

Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:34:18 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sn6BCt4iqo&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Maker's Mark RC6. This is Maker's Mark's first national limited release. It's non-age stated, 108.2 proof, and $60 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

239 - Large Scale Contract Distilling with Steve Nally and John Hargrove of Bardstown Bourbon Company

Thu, 06 Feb 2020 12:56:44 GMT

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

Jim Beam Cheat Sheet: http://bourbonr.com/blog/jim-beam-distillery-production-cheat-sheet/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bolivia.
What was your first taste of bourbon?
How did you get into working in the bourbon and spirits industry?
How was it going from Maker's to a start up distillery?
Do you have a formal education in science or did you learn on the job?
How did they convince you to come to BBC?
What was the initial BBC strategy?
What is your distillery capacity?
Did you see the need for contract distilling?
Is it difficult to produce so many mash bills?
Do clients have a mash bill in mind or do you help coach them?
Walk us through the process.
Can you pick your own yeast strain?
Can you sample the yeast strains?
Do you guide customers on wood?
How long is your wait?
How do you allocate floor levels in the warehouse?
What's the craziest demand from a customer?
Is it more efficient to have a contract distiller?
What are you distilling for BBC?
Talk about the risk of experimenting with products.
Where do you see bourbon in 3-5 years?
Any plans for other spirits?
Tell us about the decision to allow customers to customize the process.
Do you bottle and help with packaging?

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whiskey Quickie: Kentucky Owl Batch 9

Tue, 04 Feb 2020 10:30:26 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK0Ekjmxtdo&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Kentucky Owl Batch 9. This non-age stated bourbon is 127.6 proof and $300 MSRP. Let us know what you think in the comments. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

238 - The Story of LeNell's and Red Hook Rye

Thu, 30 Jan 2020 10:30:14 GMT

Red Hook Rye... that bottling might be what made LeNell a household name among bourbon unicorn chasers, but LeNell has a story to tell when it comes to the spirits industry. Her story is filled with fortunate encounters that propelled her name and eventually put her little shop in Brooklyn on the map. Like any endeavor, her story has highs and lows. LeNell shares what owning a store in Red Hook was like back in the day and how she has gone back to her roots in Alabama. We also touch on secondary pricing of her famous private label. Now, before you go any further, this podcast does contain some explicit language so don't say we didn't warn you. You get to hear the real LeNell Camacho Santa Ana.

Show Partners:

The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit.
At Barrell Craft Spirits, each batch is it's own unique expression of their blending process. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

Jim Beam Article: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-beams-are-americas-first-family-of-bourbon
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the Super Bowl.
When was your first taste of whiskey?
Do you care about Alabama football?
Where did you get the idea of LeNell's?
What were your early days like?
Did your store ever experience any crime?
How did you get into the liquor business?
Why did you focus on bourbon?
Talk about Straight Bourbon.
How did Red Hook Rye happen?
Tell us about the process of selecting Red Hook.
Do you have any Red Hook left?
What are your thoughts on the secondary pricing?
What hurdles did you face opening up a store in Alabama?
Why was this store so important to you?
Do you feel like it is better now as a women in whiskey than in the past?
Tell us about the success of your store.
Are you helping other businesses open in your neighborhood?
What is your newest project?

0:00 I love bourbon, but I'm not ready to restart my career and be distiller. I have a bachelor's degree and I want to continue to use those skills in the whiskey industry. So check this out. The University of Louisville has an online distilled spirits business certificate. And this focuses on the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is perfect for anyone looking for more professional development. And if you ever want to get your MBA their certificate credits transfer into u of L online MBA program as elective hours. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit.

0:38 Now hold on Kenny we have to anytime I talk to someone from Alabama. I gotta find out. Are you an Auburn fan? Or tide fan? Neither I don't give a shit.

1:01 This is Episode 238 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kinney, and it's time for a bit of bourbon news. Lou Bryson and acclaimed bourbon journalist and author wrote a captivating story called America's first memory of bourbon, the beams. I'm going to give you a little bit of context about the article and hope that you go read the rest of it because it gives a historical timeline of James bullguard beam, better known as Jim Beam, and distilling bourbon before prohibition, what he did after prohibition ended, and how this family lineage just as tie spreading all across the bourbon industry. Now during Prohibition, he tried other businesses including a rock quarry, and an orange grove that ultimately failed. So he found investors in Illinois to fund a new distillery after prohibition ended. Along with his son and two nephews. They built a distillery in 120 days and open on March 25th 1935. Jim was 70 years old at the time, and before prohibition, the beam family brand had been a

2:00 Old tub bourbon whiskey. To Jim's dismay, he learned that the rights the name had been sold during Prohibition. Despite this setback, he was undeterred. And that's when the whiskey officially became Jim Beam bourbon. The story then dives into this mid 1700s with Johan is Jacob beam. And then from there, the family lineage starts really spreading and talks about how they helped create early times distillery toddies liquor, heaven Hill, and their ties and estates of Weller Maker's Mark Frankfort distillery JW dance for roses, mixers, and so many more. You can read the full story with the link in our show notes to the daily beast.com wilderness trail one of the founding distillery destinations on the Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour has advanced to join the Kentucky bourbon Trail Adventure becoming the 18th stop on the world famous journey that showcases America's only native spirit. co owners Shane Baker and pat heist are recognized globally as leading fermentation specialists to their original company.

3:00 firms solutions, consulting with distilleries around the world to develop products and enhance production. And you can listen to Pat and Shane back on episodes hundred and 21 and 130. They're open for tours Tuesday through Saturday, and the visitor experience includes a 45 minute walking tour and an educational tasting seminar in the tasting room. You can learn more at wilderness trail distillery.com Talladega Superspeedway has announced that Clyde maze whiskey has become its official whiskey. Roy danis Chief Executive Officer of konica brands, which has Clyde maize and its portfolio said the partnership with Talladega Superspeedway is particularly resonant for Clyde maze because they have a similar origin. Stock racing was invented by moonshiners who use fast cars to escape the law. Clyde Mae was an Alabama farmer and a moon shiner who dodged Olam self a few times. They are the official state spirit of Alabama and Talladega is one of the most famous venues in the state. Clyde may himself

4:00 What has been proud to know his legacy continues through this Talladega partnership?

4:06 Now you heard it when we start started the podcast but I want to say thank you to our returning sponsor, the UFL College of Business and the online distilled spirits business certificate. We had a few listeners enroll last time, so perhaps it's time for you to give it a look. Make sure you go check it out at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. Now, Red Hook rye. That bottling might be what made l&l a household name among bourbon unicorn chasers over the years. But lamelle has a story to tell when it comes to the spirits industry. Per story is filled with encounters that propelled her name, and eventually put her little shop and Brooklyn on the map. We hear the story of owning a store in that area back in the day, how it was like and Holly she has now gone back to her roots, opening up a store in Alabama. Now, before you go any further, this podcast does contain explicit language. So don't say we didn't warn

5:00 You, you get to hear the real lyndale Camacho Santa Ana. All right, it's that time. Let's see what jover barrel has to say. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

5:12 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrel craft spirits. each batch is its own unique expression of our blending process. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm.

5:23 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Here we go into the Super Bowl. Oh my gosh, this is a great matchup if you're a sports fan, you get to see two amazing rushers in the San Francisco 40 Niners up against one of the most explosive offenses I have seen and some time. I mean, Patrick mahomes is this guy that you know, he may be down 25 points and he's like, Oh, yeah, I'm going to show you and I gotta tell you, I am so so glad that we have the matchup that we have because it is a

6:00 It is kind of like a football fans dream, great offense against great defense and one really good offense against a really good defense that you know what's going to give here. Anyway, this is not a football podcast. This is a bourbon podcast, so I should probably get to it. The reason why I bring up the Super Bowl, it wasn't until 2017 that the NFL even allowed spirits advertisers, so for years they had a ban on distilled spirits advertising within the NFL. Now, you got to remember to spirits had not been advertising on television until 1996. The industry had put a self imposed ban on advertising from spirits having this kind of notion that you know, if they promoted themselves, they could be drawing the ire of the prohibitionist this this held true until the mid 1990s until a small group

7:00 From Crown Royal that we call a code breakers broke the code of the distilled spirits Council and did a small little test ad in the Corpus Christi Texas market that went into like the spirits council changing their basically changing a lot of their their code. And so now you see spirits being advertised consistently. However, sports teams still struggle to bring in booze advertisers because what happens at these games people get really drunk. They make fools of themselves. I mean, there have been many incidents of people getting hurt. I think there are many people being killed by you know, drunken assholes before. And so it's often a bad look in the eyes of people who on these NFL teams to associate themselves with the liquor brand. Well, in 2019, the NFL actually changed their their belief they relax their policy on alcohol sponsorships, and allow the league to expand this game.

8:00 expand the use of basically allow a brand like Jim Beam to partner with a player. And that's the first time that anyone had ever done that. And if you recall a few years ago, you had Richard Sherman on the podium talking about how the NFL wouldn't allow people to partner with alcohol brands. So I'm glad to see that the NFL has relax those policies. I hope that it will continue because there is not many things better than enjoying a great football game with a good bourbon. So while you're watching the Superbowl, think about it. You're actually kind of witnessing a little bit of spirits history too, because I'm sure we're going to see some cool spirits ads. Let's just hope they're not blocking. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you want to learn more about the history of bourbon and advertising, check out my book bourbon, the rise fall and rebirth of American whiskey and make sure you're subscribing to my YouTube channel and checking out my new podcast. Just search my name Fred minich. Until next week,

9:00 Cheers

9:04 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon getting in Fred here today. And this is going to be talking to really it's it's kind of like two facets of it. We talk a lot about having retailers on the show and sort of what has that meant in regards to the bourbon boom and the business and, and really how they are changing their strategy of going forward and how they're, they're really marketing the products inside of their their walls to these newer consumers. But on the other hand, our guest today also comes with a pretty storied past. She's had her name on sides of bottles and all these things before that has kind of took her to a new level of fame where she's had write ups in multiple magazines and articles and blogs and stuff like that. So I'm really excited to talk to our guests today. Fred, how did you come to know our guests

10:01 Well, I think, honestly, it was through will it like I, I, I learned of her very early on

10:10 when I was writing my book, whiskey women, and she was kind of became like this, like this kind of like folklore legend, within, like, within the legends of bourbon, you know, I, I find

10:30 our guest today to be one of the most

10:35 underrated heroes of bourbon, and I'm a really American whiskey. And I genuinely mean that because she's very humble. She doesn't like attention. She doesn't want to be in the limelight. She just loves whiskey. And at the end of the day, I think that that's why most of us adore her. Yeah, I think I think he's

11:00 said it, right? It was funny when we were when I was talking to our guest lyndale today about getting her on the podcast and I was trying to say like, oh, like, you know, I promise like it'll be good like, here's our number she goes I don't give a shit about your numbers. You know, it's really funny. She's like, I just shy she didn't care. And and most of the time you talked to a lot of people in this industry and they kind of want to know what your reaches like, what are you going to help them and she's she was she's very humble about it. And hopefully that that's really going to shine through as we start talking here. So without further ado, let's go ahead and introduce our guests. So today on the show, we have Lynette Camacho Santa Ana, she is she the boss of one L's beverage boutique in Birmingham, Alabama. So Linda, welcome to the show. Thank you. Well, we're very excited to have you on and kind of before we get into the story of you and Lynn Nels and the Willetts and all that kind of stuff kind of talk about like your introduction to whiskey. Can you were

12:00 Remember that sort of first bottle that first taste, you know, we've had other distillers on and they say oh, we've had my, my grandpappy gave me a wee nip when I was a little little young lad like what's what's your what's your story there come from a teetotaler background so there was no drinking in my youth had an alcoholic grandfather so my introduction to whiskey was him coming home drunk, beaten the fuck out of my grandma. So there's some reality of our business right there.

12:28 I did not drink until I was 21. So my best recollection of like a first whiskey would have been

12:37 probably jack daniels passed around a campfire, like many folks and in the south.

12:43 kind of talk about your, your, you know, where you come from your youth and all that sort of stuff as well, because I think you kind of talked about a pretty interesting background. I grew up here in Alabama, in North Alabama. I left Birmingham

12:59 in 2000

13:00 went to New York. I was in Birmingham for 10 years before I went to New York. I was in New York for about 10 years before I moved to Mexico. And now back in in Alabama as of 2011. Now hold on Kenny, we have to anytime I talk to someone from Alabama, I gotta find out. Are you an Auburn fan? Or tide fan? May there I don't give a shit.

13:24 Would you say you might be the only Alabama that does not care about college football? Well, I've always been a critical thinker. And growing up I never understood why my family were Crimson Tide fans when nobody in my family had graduated from high school, much less gone to college. So I always question like, Where did that start is some kind of like heritage thing, like who woke up one day and said, Oh, Roll Tide.

13:50 That's hilarious to me. So I kind of want to also touch on sort of the history of you and how the

14:00 Brand kind of got started, can you can you really kind of take us back in the history books and and sort of like where did the idea come from to open up the first boutique? When I mentioned in your My goal was to really just deep dive into the industry and fate and figure out my path and I didn't move to New York in 2000 with the goal of opening the store, but I worked in retail, I worked in restaurant and done bartending.

14:25 I had a master's degree in Public Administration, I was in university admin before I left Alabama and went to New York, but it was time to really pursue my heart and just take the risk to jump into the industry with both feet. So

14:41 after work and pretty much all aspects of the business including sales,

14:47 rep five different wine books in New York

14:51 before I opened the store, and I didn't know whether I was going to do the store or bar first.

14:58 But it just fell into place.

15:00 made sense for me to go with the store first my goal has always been to open an on and off premise business situation at some point but the the on premise never happened in New York.

15:12 And in 2003, I opened the store and Red Hook Brooklyn after finding a little hole in the wall that I could afford to. To get started with it was boarded up. storefront actually had concrete blocks in the window.

15:30 It wasn't just boarded up it was concrete blocks. And the neighborhood that was

15:36 pretty rough around the edges. There was a meth clinic around the corner and

15:41 a whole lot of shenanigans in that neighborhood. The median income was $10,000. three fourths of the population lived in subsidized housing.

15:49 But it felt like the right space for me and they turned out it was incredibly successful in red Hook's crazy now with real estate but um

15:58 Wow, it's it's amazing.

16:00 seem to think about this. But, you know, you were part of the story of turning around. Red Hook. Yeah, I was part of that story. I wasn't. Yeah, I can't take credit for all that went on in Red Hook, but I was definitely a part of it.

16:15 Good or bad. I mean, the word gentrification has lots of connotations and I don't ever feel like a ginger fire because I think there's a certain level of income has to come with that. And I've scrapped a whole lot in my life to be where I am today, but I did come with a trust bond open up anything.

16:35 But yeah, I think the same thing here in my neighborhood and Birmingham, I found this property and it felt right and everybody thought I was crazy, just like they did in Red Hook Brooklyn. And I said, why not? What Why doesn't every neighborhood deserve a good liquor store? No matter what the economics are? Yeah. What were those early days like me who was like your average customer? What were you selling? There in Red Hook? What was that like?

17:00 was all over the place and it's really funny to go back and look, one day I run across some some old notes from the like the first few months it was hilarious because it was like

17:14 well painted my nails sold a bottle of Pappy

17:21 was just like slow and sleep because I nobody knew me you know and opening here in Birmingham was just like, night and day like we hit the ground running and we've been just packed from the beginning. But um, you know, our early customers were a lot of neighbors in Red Hook, spanning the demographics, black and brown and young and old and all economics. And then once people discovered what I was doing, it just became like this Mecca destination spot where people came from all over New York as well as you know, when I'd be trapped people be traveling to New York, they make the effort to come out Red Hook was like a 45 minute

18:00 schlepped from the closest subway stop, so it wasn't an easy place to get to people had to really want to be there.

18:07 Now in that first in that first year, like we we see on the nightly news of, of liquor store robbing robberies all the time, and that was certainly the neriah at the time when you you mentioned, you know, some of the shenanigans that were going on when you were moving in. Did you ever have any incidents early on or was there any like times you you like you were afraid to open up or closed or anything like that because of I never had any crime and I fully believe that you attract what you put out. And if you walk in fear, then you attract reasons to be afraid. I walked out of that store many nights with thousands of dollars after midnight and walked in my apartment. I never had anybody bother me. And this is a great story. I love telling this story because there were you

19:00 A lot of people like I said three fourths of the neighbor population lived in New York's biggest housing project

19:05 and there was a gentleman who came in the store in the the early days of it opening and

19:13 you know, the kind of guy that might my warning bells would that you know, you get the racist shit with you grits everybody does it don't matter what how much you gonna say you ain't racist. We all have stupid, runs their heads, he walks in the door and I was like he's backed me up.

19:29 Gold grill he just looked like he was ready to come in there and race somehow with me. I'm

19:36 trying to just suppress all the crap that was running through my head and treat him like I was going to treat anybody else and he became a great customer. He was a man of few words. He would bring his friends in. He bought the banana vodka to begin with. We finally moved him up the Shark Bay so

19:53 he's buying like sharp I blood orange like it

19:56 but the end of that story is

20:00 One night, we got over here him talking to some friends. And he said,

20:06 Yo, man, have you been to that woman's store? She treats you with respect. There's no bulletproof glass, and she's got really nice things in there. Boom. I mean,

20:20 here's a man living in the housing projects. And it looks like he might be the kind of guy who's gonna like, take you down. And yeah, he wants to be treated with respect, just like anybody else.

20:30 Yeah.

20:32 And again, I think that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. And just, you know, the personality you kind of show it through there and what that means. But you know, one thing I kind of want to touch on one more time before we go too much into the your time here in New York. Because you said that you were going to go all in, but what was what was that like? pivotal moment or what was that idea that said, Yeah, I do want to go all in. Because you know, you had you had come from a background that

21:00 Didn't have any any alcoholic you know you didn't drink anything growing up you kind of abusive in the grandfather era. So kind of talk about like what made you want to do that as well? Well, I got custody of 14 year old sister when I was 21 years old and

21:17 I needed like many people who get into the liquor business and some form of bartending to make money and so I was bartending and cocktail waitressing on the side, just have some income to better support our household.

21:32 got bitten by the bug and for years, I just kind of dabbled in that way. I wasn't doing it full on.

21:40 But you know, sitting in my office at university one day pushing a bunch of papers around my desk, I realized I was really spending a whole lot of my office time plucking off and researching drinks.

21:53 I was like, you know, maybe I need to really rethink this had a very cushy job with great benefits, but I'm

22:00 Friend of mine who's a librarian once gave me a book. It's been around for a zillion years in a million iterations called What color is your parachute. And if you actually go through that book and you do all the exercises, which are not easy, it really makes you sit and dig deep. It will give you an idea of what your heart's passion is career wise. And so at the end of that, I was like, I need to be in the liquor business, and I need to move to New York. So I literally just like yeah, I quit my job, sold my house, sold my car, and then packed a moving truck and went to New York. But now

22:33 as there's often in a story that involves involves New York, there's there's a romance aspect of that because I was dating a guy long distance for a long time in Indiana, and he had to said, let's finally get together. We've been together for four years. He's like, you want to go to Atlanta or New York and I was like, fuck Atlanta, let's move to New York together. And he broke up with me before I actually did the move, but I took red lipstick and wrote on my mirror for me and I did it anyway.

22:58 That's awesome. I mean, cuz

23:00 That's actually I was getting ready to ask like why New York of all places, right? Because sometimes, you know, my wife she spent a an internship in New York one year, it's not an easy place to live it'll it'll chew you up and swallow you up because it's, it's, it's very, very expensive to live and some of the parts of it and stuff like that. So, interesting story and just, you know, if you want to be in the liquor business, because everybody wants to be in New York, so you have tremendous access to things but um, I went to New York when I was 18 years old or seven, I was 17 for a high school senior trip, and it was the first place I ever felt like I was home. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a melting pot of all kinds of races and cultures and, and everything right there. And I think the one thing that I love about New York is least when you go is you could go to a different restaurant every day, your life and you could never run out of places to go eat. Yeah, I wish you could run out of money. Yesterday real quick.

23:54 Well, you could live in New York. I mean, yeah, everybody wants talk about rent and real estate, but you can live in New York.

24:00 economically. I mean, I did it for years. Hmm. Alright, so let's get back to whiskey business here. So what was let's let's talk about, you know, it's a package store. And we understand that most of the time that it's not whiskey that sells and keeps the door open. It's everything else that's that's around there as much as Fred, to his chagrin, he has to understand how that works, right. But kind of talk about now, unless maybe unless you live now. So kind of talk about like, was there a, like a niche or a market for whiskey that you saw when you were pushing it, like kind of talk about how you you started getting into that business? My main thing was how I started focusing on bourbon. When I opened my store. I didn't know shit about bourbon. That's just being honest. But it was my Southern connection. And so when I was sitting down and just trying to like, vision board, my store concept was like, it just makes sense for me to make a big focus

25:00 Because of this store be my Southern connection. And so of course, you know, bourbon, why else not? Um, so, you know, those first month the store was incredibly slow and I would, we were open till midnight, things were definitely slow from 10 to midnight. So every night 10 to midnight, I would pop sounds and taste it and I be on straight bourbon calm, like, What the hell was everybody saying? What is this, you know, get out there. Just try to like, soak up as much as I could. And

25:29 it just sort of, you know, I was preaching bourbon before it would became cool. And it wasn't even that, you know, I wasn't like trying to create a trend or whatever. I was just really just trying to be true to myself and raise. Well, I think if you're on straight bourbon, you were one of the early people that were really talking about it. I mean, that's that's the big board, if you will, well, you know, it was General Nelson. Everybody would gather for every bourbon festival and and so did you kind of foster because I know that a lot of people from straight bourbon still hang out there.

26:00 They'd still do the the kbF kind of gatherings and stuff like that. It Were you a part of that that early group in those sort of gatherings too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, I always had rumors.

26:14 Yeah, Sam I met Chuck Cowdery. We had his

26:19 straight bourbon book launch at one of the members houses there in Kentucky and

26:25 but once the store became so busy, it was just impossible for me to stay as active on the board.

26:30 I had to pull away of course, I couldn't, couldn't sit around and fuck off on the computers.

26:38 Absolutely. And so I guess was that just business taking off just in general? Because you had mentioned at the very beginning? Yeah, you painted your nails soda bottle. And then I guess I guess at some point you hit like the inflection point. Yeah, I made. A mentor told me when I opened you're going to think you're dying for three years. And then something magical happens in the third year.

27:00 And that's exactly what happened. It was like, third anniversary came around and then all of a sudden they just took off.

27:08 So you start getting into whiskey. Talk about like the selection that you you started off with and did it grow over time like as you got into bourbon and you tried to

27:20 get my hands on in New York, and there's, you know, a lot of availability there. And it didn't matter what it was. You know, if it said Barban on it up, put it on my shelf.

27:31 We did what we call cats and dogs, tastings and do whatever it wasn't just all about, you know, trying to have Julian Van Winkle come in store. Um, you know, even a funny story. The first time I met Julian was at

27:46 one of the whiskey festivals in New York and I was scared shitless

27:51 I was like, I said, I just gotta rock this I just put on some like pink suede pants and black. Hi Oh birds, Walker Banyan.

28:00 A sea of drunken men and walked up to God and and handed him my business card and said, You don't know me, but you need to and I just walked away.

28:09 We, you know, made friendships over the years. And we tell these stories, and it's hilarious, but he was like, I just like, hell is this.

28:18 So yeah, we came to my store, and we did a bottle signing in those early days. And I had people just like, packed and then the black cars came from lower Manhattan. And he just was looking at me, he's like, what the hell, I've never done an event like this. And I was like, well get ready. It's common. If you don't know it, you're about to just be blown away and he was like, Okay.

28:42 So, you know, I was an early believer in what he was doing with the Pappy label, and when I close the store 2009 I still had I still had Pappy on the shelf. I started right around the show. Wow. You know, it was that in my basement for years.

28:58 So speaking of Red Hook, right

29:00 Let's let's get into that. How did that happen? Uh, much in the same way as anything. I believe it happens. It just happens naturally. That wasn't anything I clamored for drew and I became friends through the industry.

29:16 I remember the first time I met him, he came to one of the whiskey festivals in the room was all a buzz because, you know, Evan had been a hermit for so long. And he was there's a Causeway near Oh my god. Andrew, like me was very Matter of fact, just like, cut through the bullshit, just tell things like it was and we hit it off, stayed in touch. And once I think we were just like hanging out in Bardstown and he said you should do we should do a barrel we should we should do a label for you.

29:45 And we didn't did and wasn't a whole lotta not a whole lot of thought process. Just say Sure. Why not. Let's

29:53 kind of created this iconic label. You know, first of all, Red Hook ride just has such a

30:00 Beautiful name to it. And even if you're not familiar with the Red Hook area, like you could live in Boise, Idaho and not be familiar with that area, you're like, wow, Red Hook is such a cool name. And then you see that and you see that arm with the tat it just was that your idea? I mean, who came up with the name and that art? I came up with the name because I was trying to do something to honor my neighborhood.

30:26 Amanda alliteration, so that was a natural thing.

30:31 The artwork was the the Brooklyn artists who did my postcard artwork, and I don't know if you ever saw him on postcards, but they were incredibly racy.

30:42 He was just hilarious and he would always push even for me would push my boundaries of racy

30:49 that

30:51 I was talking to marketing forums about design and the label and he just showed up and he was like, Can I give it a go? Can I just like, throw something that

31:00 Gather and you tend to whether you like it or not, before you like commit to these big firms to design a label for you. And he showed up at the store one day, and he was like, Well, you know, I'm trying to be you, you're trying to be true to the neighborhood. I call it red and grind like to be true to the history of the neighborhood. And

31:16 this being on the waterfront of Brooklyn and stevedores being a part of the history of, you know, big burly man on the Datsun loading ships and whatnot. And so yeah, he just presented it and I was like, done. That's the label right there.

31:30 I mean, seriously, it is. It is a kind of a showstopper, you're walking around, you see that label, even if you don't know anything about whiskey, or you want to taste it, you want to look at that beautiful piece of art, because that's what it is. It's art. So it's gorgeous. Yeah, he was so much fun to work with and just trying to do things outside the box. I mean, there's so many boring whiskey labels out here.

31:54 I'm working on another one right now. That's going to really make you

32:00 laugh a lot. Oh, they like nails crazy as hell.

32:05 It took a break. She was like, we just got to do this. And it's using a local artist here in Birmingham.

32:11 And I'm keeping it under wraps for that.

32:14 Well give us till the end of the show to get it out of you.

32:19 Take us take us through the process of selecting the whiskey for Red Hook, right because yes, the label is gorgeous. But I've got Red Hook rise one of the top five rise I've ever tasted. I mean, it's it's incredible. So take us through selecting that whiskey. As you know there were four barrels and the first barrel drew a night with a couple other folks are just in the warehouse, literally like just walking

32:50 over barrels and

32:53 popping bongs and tasting whiskey and passing it around like yes, no, yes. No, yes. No. And that number

33:00 One is still my favorite of all four barrels. I mean you know what's really just being able to paint kind of the cream of the crop the the barrel was phenomenal. Do you remember some of the the ages that were on these? Cuz I can't I can't bring up my notes right? That first one was 23 years and the rest were 24 you know, not a lot of people know that to make happy 2030 stocks. I don't even drink it.

33:26 The age of bourbon it at that level is usually mean it's over worded and it won't hold up in a glass. tell people all the time you can spend a fortune on Patrick 23 like let it sit on your counter for half a second come back and it's like, you know, oxidized and cloudy and funky.

33:43 But you know what made that whiskey so special with that he said they had dumped the barrels that they had initially bought and refilled bourbon barrels with the rye so that whiskey could sit there for a little longer at that age.

34:00 not be so over the top with wood. And we didn't really talk about that we didn't market it. But that that's one thing that made those all those barrels so special. And then the, you know, it's been so long I don't remember who was with me on each pit, but at one point I drove down with Don les from New York who had worked with me a little bit in the shop, and he's now you know, cocktail rock. He's like a Barton and God is he's amazing. And I really treasure him. He came down with me and another. Another guy got started just kind of working with me in the shop. We had one at one point. They each came I can't remember which barrel that was.

34:46 It's been so many good barrels. He came. Well, when he was there. I remember you know, we were just passing glass around. We all had to agree on it. It was you know, it was I had to pass my lips first and I thought it was worthy and then I passed

35:00 sit around and we were all like, man, yeah. Or maybe it had to be like a like all out like, Yeah, that one. So very scientific process kind of.

35:09 It sounds like exactly what happens in barrels selections nowadays. So it's just, you just, you know, you just had the luxury of being in there quite early when Yeah, like that was around. Yeah, yeah, that's never gonna happen again. You know, I've had so many people reach out to me. There's a store in Red Hook that asked me if they could buy the rights to it. And I was like, dude, that's not going to exist anymore. I that label is done. There's a Red Hook rye beer. Like if somebody's been trying to launch that today they'd be sued by somebody making beer that wouldn't like that label to be around.

35:43 So now I'm going to be your agent here the the asking price they so they want to come in and they want to buy that the the Red Hook right rights. What do you think and Kenny started out a 15 million. That a good that a good number? That's up there.

35:58 Right. Maybe maybe five

36:00 That's a five. Okay, so we're going I was going to high. Alright, so now we'll we'll come in and negotiate this for you get a 5 million deal. We won't even we won't even take a cut. We just want the whiskey.

36:14 Well, what Red Hook right? Red Hook right? do you have left? I don't even have any. I don't have any left. I'm not I sold all of it to raise money to finish my store. I had such a struggle getting the money I needed to finish construction.

36:30 It took me seven years to get open here. Wow. I really didn't even realize what I was sitting on. I've been out of it for a bit as a new mom and haven't been out of the country for two years. And my ex husband kept saying you have got all this whiskey out. You have no idea. It's like everybody at my bar is asking me if you if you'll sell it to them and I'm like whatever. I come on. Got some Pappy and some record Rob big deal. And then one day I called and talked to drew and I was like, Hey, man, I'm really hurt and I need I need to get this business.

37:00 I've been

37:01 divorced and you know, things were really tough. It's a single mom. And he's like, Well, I know, Doug sold some of his bottles for like 3700 or something. So I know you can can get around that, you know, and I put the whole set of four out

37:17 bottles number two, and I couldn't get anybody to offer me more than 20,000 for all four. And I had everybody under the sun messaging me and, you know, some even like calling me names. It was it was a side of the sex is bullshit in this business that I hadn't been exposed to in a long time and kind of threw me I was so disrespected in that process. And you know, and then you see now like those same guys who were like, call me a con or trying to sell for number two's for $20,000 or turn around now and sell one for 16.

37:52 So I'm like, Okay, well, I'll just stick to my retail and y'all can play around with the bootleg. And I'm done with that. Yeah.

38:00 Isn't for that is unfortunately a really

38:04 nasty side of our culture that you know it's very much very pocketed to the enthusiast side like you don't really see that but I'm sorry you went through that I really am sorry you went through that as as as somebody who loves this community and

38:23 i'd love I'd love it if that would stop but sadly it won't and and i will tell you that they they attacked you for being a woman you know they say similar things to man they just that I've seen this time and time again and those groups is like when it comes to this stuff people go overboard and the private messages and then they get very dirty very mean. And I'm very sorry you had to go so different from the environment of like a straight bourbon com or bourbon enthusiast calm experience I'd had. Well, yeah, there

39:00 Be a TIFF, Aaron there, but it was overall a very civilized and yeah, the level of bourbon mania going on in these secret pages is something that really disgusts me. And here's the thing to live now, how much of those people really know? And what do they really add to the conversation? Yeah, I mean, just wanting money grew, you know, Drew and I've had many conversations about that kind of thing. And you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful that that exists in many ways.

39:31 Because I did end up selling my bottles and that money put the roof on my store, but at the same time, there's a I don't know, I've always been about building the relationships. It's never been about just the business or barely whiskey for me. And when it gets to this level of just doggy dog, who's who's got the biggest collection and who can get the most money for it. I just bores me.

39:57 Yeah, absolutely. And it's

40:00 And I think you'd kind of hit the are you said it right there. Last time I checked, I think some of those red hooks were 15 even up to 18,000 bottles, something like that. And I guess like what is what's your thought on that valuation or price?

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41:30 what is what's your thought on that valuation or price? I mean, is that something that I know you probably never dreamed it would be like that but like what is your What is your really like your gut thought? Do you really think you really think it's worth that you kind of like man, it's just that's just crazy shit. Like, you know, you've heard this a million times is anything worth it? I mean, that's object and if you think it's worth it, you got that kind of cash and it's worth it but you know, I spent

41:58 $17,000 on my

42:00 Business property $5,000 on my house I'm living in. When I say these kind of numbers, it makes me quiver a little bit because I'm like, wow, like that's, that's like a place somebody could live and you're just going to piss that in a couple of hours. So yeah, it's a little disturbing sometimes. But then, you know, if that's the kind of cash flow you have, who am I to judge you for spending that kind of money on? escape? I mean, there's people who had that's just a blip in their bank account. So you know, I bless it and saying, may you be even even better and and more well off to benefit somebody.

42:35 So Kenny, there's a retailer in California selling a bottle of Red Hook rye for $30,000. Well, you say selling they might have it out there, but that doesn't mean it's being bought. And it's just like the guy

42:51 in New York with 50. I mean, Lee Lee taqman bought that set that I just mentioned, the number two's he bought some other bottles.

43:00 For me as well. And then when you put that Red Hook where I set out $475,000 on this website, it went like wildfire. And I messaged him, I was like, like, I like you. You spent less than $4,000 a bottle on some of that stuff. So like, Where's that number coming from? And he just laughed. He's like, Man, it's just marketing. Everybody's talking about it. And it went viral. And he was a marketing genius for doing it. He brought ton of people to his business because they were all like, Oh, my God brought $475,000 That's crazy. But you know, people came to the store to talk about it or see what else he had. Somebody sent me a link the other day Christie's auction house had a Red Hook. Right? Let's starting bed of 20,000.

43:40 Okay, I think we've we've talked about the Red Hook. rhyolite and just the crazy valuation goes, I know bottle for 50,000 Okay, get my checkbook out.

43:51 got here. 60. Okay, well, let's, uh, let's wait until the next. Maybe that should just be like the new index like it's the Red Hook right?

44:00 index to see like how how crazy is the bourbon Richter Scale getting year after year? Maybe that's what you should do with your stuff. Guineans, the just start pricing it 1000 to $5,000 a bottle and then people go crazy for it. See what happens. I'm all I'm all about it

44:16 is Red Hook ride number one I saw bows for $75 a bottle

44:24 but even back then, this was what what year was this? 2008 nine um I think the rennaker I started in what was it? 2007 I can't remember the year but yeah, even back then 75 is a probably might have been a lot for a lot of folks, you know? Well yeah, I mean, it was but a barrel for went up to 350 and people were like, Whoa, she's getting crazy.

44:52 And so let's let's kind of like move that forward because you know, those those bottles help build the business down in Alabama. So kind of

45:00 Talk about you know, seven years to get this this up and running kind of that. That's That's a long time to really work on something I mean, kind of talk about what was there, you know, other than getting money I mean, were there any other kind of like hiccups and hurdles that you had to face along the way to make that happen? Because everybody knows that an Alabama it's really easy to just open up liquor stores. Opening is pretty easy. I mean, it's, it's not difficult to open a private store here.

45:28 The liquor licensing process is not dreadful at all. Um,

45:34 I figured what control states it'd be a nightmare. It's not at all and it was even cheaper to open here than it was to open in New York as far as licensing and everything. You know, the challenges were it was mostly financial. And I said I would never do this again, unless I own the property. I bought the property thought that it would be pretty easy to get financing having done this before, and I learned real quickly that since I'd been closed for so long, it was considered

46:00 At a new startup, I brought my husband here from Mexico and we had to go through naturalization for him. I got pregnant, you know, there was just a whole lot of stuff on my plate, then, you know, it was a great lesson and what a woman goes through when you decide to start life again

46:21 as a single mother, because

46:25 it was very difficult for me to

46:30 one make living while I was trying to open the store and there were plenty of people were like, yeah, we don't mind you know, come up here and Bartana bartended a shit ton of private parties.

46:39 Like, pamper myself out made things work. But the financing like so many people be like, Oh, yeah, you know what you're doing. But you know, once you've been open for three years,

46:50 get money from us. That's the classic you know, like once you're once you don't need it, you can get it and that there's a lot of systemic racism and I call that out regularly.

47:00 And that doesn't go over real well. Neighborhoods who are predominantly African American really struggle with getting investment money from banks oftentimes. So yeah, there was a whole lot of challenges to jump through. But yeah, I just took it. I took it one day at a time, one moment at a time. And it took me seven years, but I did it.

47:21 I'm glad you did. And I'll tell you, I don't know

47:27 the strength that you

47:30 have exuded in that timeframe. Most people would give up.

47:35 Yeah, it was really tough. But you know, it made me go deep. And I think the biggest thing and going through that challenge.

47:45 I, I had become a caricature of myself in New York in many ways. I had built this business and I had built this character called lamelle. And going through what I did to get open again here, I feel like I am more

48:00 true to myself and more rooted and grounded in the core of my being and ever before so that's good there's always some good to come through those difficult times. So I'm just just just thinking about if I were to put myself in in your shoes if I if I were a single parent and having to go through all that and face the banking challenges I probably would have moved on to something else. And and so I kind of like just the human element of us all you know why why didn't you give up? Why was this store so important to you to start?

48:39 Um, I knew the impact this business can have on this neighborhood and I'm I'm very much a believer and impact of business on social justice have always been that way. And this neighborhood when I came to visit it to look at this property just grabbed me by the heart and wouldn't let go and neighbors just were like, We need you here and we're behind

49:00 You here and I had neighbors who said when I first came here

49:05 I didn't even know me while you're trying to figure stuff out here live in my house or here we've got this you know, I showed up here with a suitcase and next thing I know like people had just like showed up with stuff to like help me get through

49:19 that moving from Mexico period. So I felt that in Red Hook to there was a sense of community and so there was Yeah, there I really did feel like I was being pulled

49:32 by higher calling through that whole process.

49:36 And I knew that was going to be bigger than what I even understood and I many times, I've had conversations with beautiful souls like Brit calls me and just sit and say I just in tears, like, I don't know why this is happening the way it is, but there is something on the other side of this that I meant to do. And

49:57 one of my big things with opening the cafe constant

50:00 Next to the store that I feel so strongly about is that this business is ready to be turned on its head. And we've beat up people in hospitality. We overwork them. We don't respect homelife, you have souls like Sean Brock who claim to shit up and he's been really outspoken about this too.

50:21 We've lost a lot of people in this business. People don't want to talk about it, but it's over consumption and drug use and just not taking care of themselves. And I really want my whole business concept with the store and the cafe concept next door to me about hope and healing and and how can you have an alcohol business and I'm still figuring this out, but have the message that you can build community around consumption and it not get to the level where we're fucking ourselves.

50:51 And I know that's deep but that's where I am. That's where we need to go. I mean, in the last

50:57 you know, from Sasha

51:00 kreski to

51:03 you know, the gentleman we lost and Miami to Anthony Bourdain, and we've lost so many iconic people in the hospitality space. And, you know, I've been covering this this industry for a long time. And we're looking at tells you the cocktail. And almost a quarter of the seminars are about taking care of yourself. So the industry knows that we have to change or we won't have an industry anymore, or at least we won't have the talent. Yeah, no, I'm very thankful that you've seen this and you're pushing for it well, and as a mom, too, I see how hard it is for women to stay in this business and raise a family because I don't care how wonderful you are as a dad. Nine times out of 10 the woman is still doing most of the childcare. And so to still be like the one who's taking care of the babies and more than likely doing the laundry and washing the dishes and running a business or staying in you know, as a manager of a restaurant or

52:00 Whatever it is, it's really difficult for women and I, that's another aspect of what I'm hoping to do with this businesses is proved that it can be done in a way that respects and supports women. You know, I was a breastfeeding mom when I was working

52:16 behind the bar and, like, who offers a woman pump breaks behind a bar? Nobody. You know, my breasts are being gorgeous. I'm like, freaking out, like, What am I supposed to do? Like, like, how do I had a breast pump in the bathroom and a paper towel holder.

52:34 Those conversations need to be had, you know, it's not just about young folks that we just like we're out to their bodies won't handle it anymore. We run everybody out of the business that you know, has a lot to contribute to the business. So

52:47 I have a proposal for you. What's that? Let's do a seminar tells the cocktail next year. Oh, Lord, I boycotted towels back in 2008.

52:57 I know it's now. Yeah, it's just

53:02 Kenya, I gotta tell you, it's it's this kind of a passion that is really outside of whiskey. But within whiskey that to me, is is the future of our culture. You know, so our culture cannot live on whiskey alone. It has to it has to come together as a community and this recognition that there's potentially substance abuse problems. That is huge. That is huge. And she brought up Sean Brock, you know, friend of mine friend of yours, and, you know, he is he's had a very public battle with alcoholism. I mean, Sean, that guy can't even go to the grocery store without getting in the New York Times. But yeah, it's covered a lot but I want to come back to you, a little you something you brought up as you is.

54:00 Is the woman angle and I'm very passionate about this of like, you know creating a an environment in the whiskey industry that is women feel comfortable in its big reason why I wrote the book I did. And then I love going back to your label you kind of have a little bit of the Rosie riveter angle feel to it. Do you feel like it is better today than it was 1015 years ago

54:32 as a woman, uh, taking out the the creepy guys on on the bourbon secondary markets, but do you feel like today is better than it was 1015 years ago as a woman in whiskey. Although, of course there's been tremendous progress and we have more women in the business, you know, in leadership capacity than we ever have. Probably.

54:53 Okay, I mean, of course the answer is yes. Yeah. And it's it's made progress. I mean, there's still like a shit ton of rain. Yeah.

55:00 donating

55:02 what are some areas we need improvement upon?

55:05 marketing? It's you know, I'm sure you hear this from so many women. We're all tired of saying the good old boy marketing when Matthew McConaughey got involved with wild turkey there's always Oh, I'm gonna reinvent wild turkey I'm like, oh, it still looks like I got all boy backslapping club. Okay, well how was that? So like groundbreaking.

55:25 I mean, commercials are beautiful but like what what did that what boundary did that push?

55:32 marketing? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't need to be like, Oh, look at this beautiful space drinking some whiskey. And it needs to be real, it needs to be wrong.

55:43 That's one of the in marketing is powerful marketing not only with with real women, but people of color.

55:52 let's let's let's talk about some, you know, LGBTQ up in here to just throw all that up in there. And so we're just starting to scratch the surface of

56:00 Conservative whiskey world. I agree. Do you see a lot of that today and hopefully we can see more of that change in progress you know as as this comes along and I think having a voice like yours being really outspoken in you know, there's there's a lot of industry people that listen this podcast and they're going to hopefully take note of that too and, and kind of see that change. But we are trying to work on website ideas. My website is still a landing page and looks like shit. But I'm, you know, talking to companies about website ideas. And I'm saying the same kind of things. I'm just saying to you like now we need images, images that reflect my customers, you know, why can't we have two black hands toasting or

56:42 two women looking like they're celebrating their wedding? And then the market marketing guys at these website companies are like, Well, I mean, those images don't really exist for us and I'm like, Okay, well then let's take some frickin pictures. Let's create the images. I don't just give me this excuse some light. You don't have those images and some stock model.

57:01 Yeah, that's powerful. Like what we say what becomes the norm? I've seen a lot of those photos, I think you need new marketing people exactly right. This is why my webpage still sucks because I haven't found the right company.

57:13 So we are kind of running up on the top of this out real quick. And I kind of want to circle back to just to your story again to kind of wrap this up and, and so seven years the doors open, kind of talk about what business has been like because you mentioned the first store it was kind of like all right, it'll build up there's an inflection point like and you said this one was just hit the ground running on day one, kind of kind of talk about what what that's been in, you know, and whether it's been a blessing or curse with work and everything else. It's been a huge blessing. I'm very grateful. And it's

57:48 it's just a I'm amazed when I opened in New York, really work the store pretty much by myself for three years, and my boyfriend at the time when he got off work would come in and I put in time and

58:00 Well,

58:01 but it took really in New York three years before I could, I could hire a full on team and I have two full time staff right now and I'm interviewing to hire two more so I have a total of four in the first year I'm already there. I'm at sales and in one year here that it took me four years to get to in New York City. Wow, that's impressive to be able to do that in Birmingham in New York, and you know, I just did my employees annual reviews

58:34 with a sip of Appleton 50. No Berman

58:38 It's okay. You're still speaking to Fred spreads heartstrings there

58:43 15 minute good. It wasn't oh my god is so good. I'm makes me want to definitely go do a staff trip to Jamaica.

58:52 Yeah, one of the things that came out of that it's my staff's like, you know, you have kind of been backslapping that you've not been in the store.

59:00 Managing because in New York It was very very difficult for me to walk away and let employees do their thing. Because I had just like I Uz that store for so long I mean I'm many times I slept on the floor of that store and got up and just kept going. But to see the success and just for me to be at a place of growth to

59:20 I've been able to let go and trust employees already to start managing things. It took me years and New York to get to

59:27 it. So we're going to start working on the cafe concept. That's the next thing and that's going to be probably about two years out but it's a huge project we're taking on a big Greek Revival on the store calm it's right next to the store. That's going to be pretty amazing project.

59:49 JOHN brought come down and play with me Ben.

59:53 sent a few text messages. I did but you know, we haven't snagged him yet.

1:00:00 So we had, we did have one question in the chat that came from Mikey Conrad. And you know, because you've got this history of kind of opening up businesses that are more like in impoverished areas. And he asked a question, are you working with other organizations or partnering with other stores to help in that sort of same socio economic background to help start their business and Kickstarter, Kickstarter it off the ground as well? That's a great question. And it's something that I do feel very strongly about. Um, there's been some talk about trying to form like a Business Association, the Merchants Association in this area, this area, does not have a whole lot of business at all, the old business quarter is pretty much gone.

1:00:39 There's a lot of talk of with connecting our neighborhood, we have millions of dollars of deltan development going on a mile down the road. So there's been a lot of talk of time to connect that and

1:00:51 how we do that to keep mom and pop businesses a part of that and not just the whole bunch of chains. But, you know, my goal, my long term goal is to really get to a point where I can mentor

1:01:00 And help other especially women get started in business in a way that I think is so needed. Women have got to support women financially, and getting our businesses off the ground because we understand each other in a way nobody else is.

1:01:17 As far as the I especially, like, balancing home wife and kids and everything, and, um, yeah, I don't have any definite plans, but that's something that I think a lot about. I haven't had it haven't had a free moment to focus on that right now, but I will in time.

1:01:34 That's great. And so as we close this out, I got one more question to ask of you. So, you, you went and you sold all your red Hook's, you know, I'm sure that there's some part of you that that is that has a little bit of a hole in your heart, but maybe maybe that that whole sort of getting filled by knowing that you're building something bigger and better. And then earlier this year, you had done two more well, epics, you done your light side and your dark side. Tell me you kept at least a few bottles of that, and you're not going to

1:02:00 You're not gonna do the same thing again. I did. I had a few friends here like Don't be stupid this time. And I wouldn't call it being stupid. I mean, I just was like, whew, everybody enjoy the enjoy the whiskey before.

1:02:12 But I didn't keep a lot. I can't bottles one through six of each one.

1:02:18 So what is the what is the new project you have? Remember, this won't come out for a long time. So no one's gonna know for a while. I mean, I've talked about it somewhat. I'm not going to give out all the details. But um, there's a distiller here in Alabama that I'm excited about stuff that link and yeah, he's cool project we're working on together.

1:02:38 No, it's not going to be a 23 year old rye. But I went down and met him and tasted out of barrel and he had it he had one barrel it really pulled my heartstrings that it's going to be fun. You know, he sent me some stuff to that, to me was really reminiscent of a couple honey barrels that I'd had from from

1:03:00 Well it so I can see. I could see I could see like your your heartstrings lining up. They're like no, he's a good distiller. He's a good person. And again, it's I like with Dre, that project just happened because we were building a friendship and happen naturally. So I'm not out here trying to replace a Red Hook ride, that's never gonna happen. I just I felt the butterflies when I went down and met with Seth and so I've told him when I feel this feeling, I gotta follow up on it. So let's make this magic happens. That's fantastic. So as we kind of wrap this up here, at least we got a little bit of teaser. We'll see what's happening next. Maybe we'll get back with you here in a year and we'll kind of see where you are with that project and be good to get a kind of

1:03:44 a whole full circle feedback here. But for anybody that wants to go to the nails beverage boutique and find out more about it, how do they do that?

1:03:54 Like I said, the website sucks. Our Facebook page is very active. All our social media is atla now's the him at La

1:04:01 ls BH am? And what's your address because I have a feeling that someone's going to change the direction of where they're driving right now as you're listening to this more. We're at 12 32nd Street North we're a mile up from Top Golf.

1:04:17 There you go. Get your pint and head on over to Top Golf. Save yourself a few bucks. You're trying to fight that in little

1:04:25 man Come on. Oh, no pints there. Okay, never mind. Never mind. Bad Kinney or boozy, or boozy. We don't sell pints over. I call it cheeky. There you go.

1:04:36 So what I want to say thank you again so much for coming on the show. I mean, for us, I mean, it was a I had met you originally at the the willit bar opening about a year maybe two years ago now. And and really this opportunity to kind of really sit down capture your story, and really be able to spread the message of really what you're doing not only just for whiskey whiskey is one aspect but the human

1:05:00 element and what you're doing to really promote that. I think it speaks a lot for yourself and and what you're trying to do to help impact and change the industry. You know, it's just one person trying to try to really kind of scale that up too. So thank you again for coming on the show and doing that. Thank you for being a gentleman in your chase to get us to sit down together. Absolutely. I do my best for that. And if you want to know more about us, you can follow bourbon pursuit on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, if you liked the show, you want to support the show, you want to ask questions and see this live as we do these recordings, you go and support us@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you want some good reading material, make sure you go check out bourbon plus magazine as well. We've got a we've got some things going on with our Patreon community and getting perpend plus subscription. So make sure you go and do that. Thank you everybody that was watching this live. It's been a pleasure. And we'll see everybody next week. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Knob Creek Quarter Oak

Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:30:21 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB98Y-bUHys&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Knob Creek Quarter Oak. This non-age stated bourbon is 100 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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237 - Oversaturated Sourced Bourbon and Private Barrels on Bourbon Community Roundtable #40

Thu, 23 Jan 2020 10:30:56 GMT

This week’s Bourbon Community Roundtable touches on lots of good hot topics. We look at MGP's stock as it continues it's downward trend with our thoughts on how this will play out for them. Then we talk about sourcing in general and if consumers are getting oversaturated with the same bulk market products. Stickers are always a fun subject, but this week there was one released that got national media attention. Will distilleries crack down on stickers? Lastly, we congratulate Old Forester on it’s revamp of the barrel program and cap it off with our most annoying bourbon terms.

Show Partners:

Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks more about smoked grains.
Breaking Bourbon announces Stagg Jr. as their whiskey of the year. Let's discuss.
What do you think about the MPG losses for the 3rd quarter in a row?
Is the bourbon market oversaturated with brands?
What happens when the aged whiskey runs out?
Let's discuss the effect of stickers on bottles.
What do you think about the New Riff Pitino sticker?
Sticker predictions?
Brown-Forman comes out with a barrel proof single barrel program for Old Forester. What is taking everyone else so long?
What's the most annoying term in bourbon?

0:00 Kenny didn't did my over talking on the sticker thing. get in the way of getting the opportunity to talk about vodka.

0:11 I guess so,

0:13 son of a bitch. Yeah. Hey, I got it. I got it. I got to dial it back a little bit. Man, I really need to talk about vodka on this show. But how much I hate it. I've never done that before.

0:35 Maybe one it's Episode 237 of bourbon pursuit. I'm kidding. And here's some of the news. You know, we've been keeping up with the talks of the trade war going on. And however President Donald Trump and his French counterpart president Emmanuel Macron, have agreed to hold off on the escalating trade war. And this is now avoiding what would have been a massive tariff increase on French goods such as wine, cheese and handbags, Trump and threaten the new duties and retaliate.

1:00 For a tax slapped on revenue earned in France by American tech firms such as Facebook and Google, the two sides will hold off on potential tariffs until the end of the year, as French officials have said and negotiations over the digital tax will continue at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. A 25% tariff still remains intact and in place due to separate trade disputes related to Airbus numbers are starting to come in for visits to distilleries across Kentucky, and Sazerac, who is not a part of the Kentucky distillers Association has released their numbers earlier this week. The distillery ended 2019 having a record breaking 293,996 visitors during the calendar year. This is a 35% increase in visitation over 2018. And as you know, there is currently a $1.2 billion investment going into everything around Buffalo Trace, including producing more whiskey but also expanding the visitor center. The expanded Visitor Center will be utilized together

2:00 A bit more distillery archives. And as the expanded space will back up to the recently completed fermenter expansion, the visitor center will have a backdoor access to the whiskey making process allowing for new and updated to a routes. The expanded space will also supply another place for event locations for hosting evening parties. Now for this week's podcast, this roundtable touches on a lot of good subjects, we look at the stock of MGP as it continues its downward trend, and with our thoughts on how this is going to play out for them. Then we talk about sourcing in general and of the consumers. You and I are getting oversaturated with some of the same products that we see on the bulk market, and stickers. It's always a fun subject. However, this week, there was one that got released that got national media attention. And does that mean that distilleries are going to start cracking down on them? Who knows? We'll find out and then we congratulate old forester on the revamp of their barrel program. While we cap it off with our most annoying bourbon terms. Are you interested in this

3:00 See what sort of barrel pics we have going on. Right now we are still set to select an old forester whistlepig to Buffalo Trace barrels to four roses barrels and a new roof barrel this year, or aiming to do somewhere around 20 barrels this year and you can get in part of the action as well. Not only just getting a chance to have a bottle from the barrel pick, but you could also be on this selection team. Go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit and you can learn more there. Alright, it's that time once again to see what Joe over barrel bourbon has to say. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char

3:35 it's Joe from barrell bourbon. We're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrel bourbon com

3:43 I'm Fred minikin. This is above the charm. Last week in my above the char I talked about smoking the grains before distilling them and how that is changing the character and the flavor profiles of bourbon really all American whiskeys

4:00 And I asked a question in the barrel finishes, we bring up a stink as to whether or not those are really bourbon. I asked, should we start asking ourselves are the smoked grayned Bourbons, also bourbon. Now they technically meet all the qualifications but there was a time in American whiskey history in which they tried to dictate what types of grains were used and where they were coming from. So the question is, because smoking the grains changes the character so much it takes a big right or left hand turn on Kentucky bourbon, Should we open that up? And we got a really good email from Jason Lambert. He's the lead distiller at came and spirits company in the Grand Cayman says he's a big fan of the show. Thank you very much for that Jason. And he, he says, When you think of bourbon, you often think of this as tradition in history. But when it comes to smoking grains, I think

5:00 Industrial kilns were mainstream and most all malls were smoked to stop germination. In this respect, a smoke bourbon would be welcomed with open arms. So as long it is properly labeled, however, this would open a Pandora's box to include grains like the smoke corn, you discussed about MB rolling. But again, I should

5:24 I think they should be accepted as long as it is very clearly labeled. Now, Jason brings up a great point. And I think that is always my main concern is that consumers are not deceived. And that's what has happened in a lot of whiskey labeling is like somebody will follow it to a tee, and then someone else will take advantage of the equity that that one person has built and do something like dump a gallon of sherry in there and then call it it's Sherry finished barrel. The Sherry finished blend or

6:00 Whatever. And you know, when it comes to the smoking of the grains, I just want to be, I just want to make sure that consumers are protected. And the fact is, is that people will do things that they can get away with. So as long as people are, you know, making note on their labels that they're using smoke grains, I don't think we have a problem. But the minute that someone comes out and is pumping mosquito smoke or peated Bourbons into the market without notifying the consumer, that's what it is.

6:35 That's when we have a problem. Because what will happen inevitably, someone will taste that product, and then not like it or like it, and they'll expect that's what bourbon is supposed to taste like. You have to remember that when we talk about consumers, we're really talking about, you know, one or 2% of the consumers, people who are not necessarily engaged in whiskey at all. We're definitely not talk about people in this podcast.

7:00 But when people are arguing for class action lawsuits that somebody was deceived or something, they find like a small amount of people to prove their case. And that's what I'm talking about here. I imagine someone going to some some place like Walmart that's where attracts everybody and they grab a bottle of what they think is bourbon, they go home and taste it and it tastes like smoke or tastes like pee or something that the tourism away from buying another product of bourbon because what they think of in their head is bourbon is that smoke flavor that they didn't like, and so they go back to Crown Royal or vodka or gin or whatever it is never giving something like Evan Williams a shot even though Evan Williams doesn't taste anything like that smoke product that they dislike. And they're in is what why Jason has hit the nail on the head when he talks about it's all about labeling, and trying not to deceive the customer. And as long as we have upfront labeling, I'm always going to be okay.

8:00 With just about anything as whether or not barrel finishes, or actually bourbon, now, that's a debate for another time. But I can tell you 1955 things like four roses of today and Buffalo Trace, they were not even considered the way they are made today would not be considered bourbon in 1955. And that's when the barrel entry proof was the legal maximum was 110. So, even though we have some rigid standards in American whiskey, it's always evolving. What American whiskey looks like in 10 years. Who knows? Maybe mosquito smoke corn finished and Sherry barrels is the standard. I don't know. But I do know that I'll be here to taste it. And that's this week's above the chart. Hey, if you'd like to write me and tell me what you think about above the char, maybe I'll read it on the next episode. shoot me an email or hit me up on Instagram.

9:00 Graham at Fred minich Until next week, cheers

9:06 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon and tonight we are having bourbon Community Roundtable number 40 and it's also the first verb Community Roundtable of 2020. So welcome back everybody. Glad to have everybody here right

9:22 here. So pretty much we got the whole crew here tonight. So Fred, Ryan, Brian, Nick and Blake as well. So how's everybody doing? Doing well doing well Kenny start to the New Year.

9:35 Just fantastic.

9:39 So excited. And for anybody that's not able to if you're just if you're in the car you're just listening or something like that. Ryan has finally got a new background. He's He's finally stepped up and he's got a whole new house renovations got bottles behind them now. I know. I'm like halfway through. You can maybe see if I get all the way. running our shells. I have another

10:00 One next to me. That's empty. But uh, yeah, I'm only halfway there and I'm running out I should have went bigger like Kenny said, but I don't have any more walls so

10:10 I think that's one thing is as we start going down and when people ask they're like, Hey, can you send pictures of like your your shelves or? Anybody have ideas and as soon as you have an idea for how big your shelves need to be, just triple it. Yeah, because always triple it because that's exactly i mean even doubles not going to get there but so when you think you need shelves for your bourbon, just triple it, because that's what's gonna happen. I yeah, just liquidate. I've been like giving like somebody comes to my house and I'm like, Here, take this bottle bottle for you, bottle for you.

10:44 So I'll go on over. I'll give you a funny story. So this past Sunday, my wife kind of went on a cleaning spree and went down to the basement and y'all know my basement. I know many people have seen it on social media. I mean, it's just littered with bottles and just crap everywhere. And she's

11:00 Like, this has gotta go. I probably ended up dumping out probably like three bottles worth of whiskey of just like samples of like 100 ml ml samples of just stuff that like it's, it's stuff that's all like from distilleries that wasn't very good or under age and I'm just like, I'm never gonna drink this. I don't know why I'm hanging on to it. But there's a little piece of you that just dies every time you sit there just empty down the drain.

11:26 Yes, I did. Actually, I had a bunch of media sample bottles and I just dumped them into the canter. We'll see what happens here. Infinity bottles. Yeah, exactly. already had one infinity ball that never touch. And then I like wow, be a great idea to create another one. So I don't drink it and let it sit there but uh, yeah, it's, it's good problem to have. Yeah, yeah, it is. Alright, so let's go ahead and go around the horn real quick. So Blake, we'll start with you. Just go ahead and do the usual. Yeah, I'm Blake from bourbon er calm. Bo you are Bo you are Bo, nr? It's been a

12:00 wow you know I almost forgot how to spell the name so glad to be back these are a lot of fun to do so that you can check me out at all social medias Instagram Twitter, Facebook as well as CEO box comm that's s ELBACH s I'm Nick from breaking bourbon, breaking bourbon com check us out

12:20 on social media all at breaking bourbon. And so I'm not going to spell it for you like Blake Blake i don't know i don't i don't want to screw it up and embarrass myself on live here. But yeah, you guys should know it by now. Breaking bourbon again. Glad to be here guys. Good Brian. Yeah, thanks for having me back. Happy to be for the first one of the of the New Year Brian with sip and corn. You can find me on Twitter Facebook and Instagram at sip and corn si p p n co CEO or MC there I go next can't even spell your own name anymore. And and also see me at bourbon justice.com. Let's start getting into some of the

13:00 The topics for tonight and so one of the one I kind of look at is how breaking kind of made stag Junior famous because it was one of these things that's like stag Jr. has been around, it's been around forever and all of a sudden, they come out and say it was their whiskey of the year and 2019 batch 12 and never at least correct me if I'm wrong Never before has Sazerac ever put out a press release about a new release of stag Jr. and now all of a sudden people are just going crazy for it it's just I don't even know if the initial release of stag Jr. Got a official press release

13:35 batch number 13 yeah even know they had badges

13:40 not getting

13:42 Okay, can I jump in so I was going to share this story earlier but so I was in South Carolina this weekend when we hit a few stores just see what they had three different no it was one bar and two different stores. They're like well, you know, we did just get the George t stag Jr. I don't know if you know this, but it was just named whiskey of the year.

14:00 I'm like, No, no, don't trust those guys.

14:05 It was gone off the shelves and the guy was like, yeah, you know, one of the employees grabbed it here because it was just named whiskey of the year. So, like, dang it breaking strikes again.

14:17 Y'all have a meeting with Jim Murray, you know?

14:22 I wish somehow it's like, it's like a catch 22 because, like, in a way, it kind of it kind of hurts us to to do something like that, because it's generally not insanely difficult to get here. I mean, it's not on the shelves all the time. But it shows up. I mean, if you're in liquor stores as much as we are, you're going to see it, you know, it's going to be out, you're going to have a chance to get it, you know, and so when when you do stuff like that, you know, you always think about the impact of, you know, are people going to lose their minds about it, but the flip side of that is, is, you know, it's kind of nice to have something that's just kind of a regular release, you know, they're not all going to be great. I don't think you know, there's going to be a

15:00 Elijah Craig barrel proof that's fantastic there's going to be a larceny you know barrel proof that's that's fantastic you know that kind of thing you know so it's that idea that kind of these regular releases that we get some really good once in a while we don't have to necessarily hunt you know the crazy stuff that everyone's already going to go nuts for no matter how good it is or not you know that you might just stumble upon you know really good batch or you know really good run a single barrels or something like that. So that's what's kind of exciting about that. But yeah, the catch 22 is it probably is going to be a little difficult to find for a little while at least although you know, probably taper off and be able to find it like you did before. If you know the know the liquor store, guys and you're getting your area. I think it'll still show up, you know, couple months from now. So one of the benefits of never deleting an email is that I have been able to trace every single Buffalo Trace, press release, and I found the original one with the original George t stag Jr. Or the stag Junior bourbon press release July 25 2000.

16:00 13 and I did not find any other follow up releases. So this

16:08 this is the first based on my inbox, which is a very well kept never deleted inventory of all Buffalo Trace press releases. And I remember the first either the first one or the first couple of those were just hotter than all hell. I mean, they were just unveiled.

16:28 Yeah, yeah, terrible. Yeah, terrible one of the one of my lowest rated Bourbons and everyone was super excited for it when it came out. And everyone thought I was going to be the, you know, the George t stag just a little younger, really, it's pretty much should be the same thing. Otherwise just maybe not quite as developed. But that one was pretty bad. And that one kind of turned us off from it for a little while. Of course, I have three bottles of that batch one. But you know, so it's been a little while we've had it here and there. You know, this one kind of popped up and Eric was the one who got it first and he was just going on and on about how great it was.

17:00 We had it and we're like well it's yeah we're going to start buying this again now you know so just yeah I think there's going to be hits and misses they're not all going to be they're not all gonna be home runs but this one was pretty good and from what I hear batch 13 is pretty good too and from a lot of comments people I don't think people didn't realize there were batches you know, if you're not a die hard bourbon enthusiasts, I don't think you're necessarily noticing that the proof is different. And it doesn't say batch anywhere so you know, I think Buffalo Trace maybe realize they could educate people a little bit better. You know, kind of talking about that there are actually different batches of this. You know, like for example, having held us with their you know, how they're identifying their batches now. We're knows maybe we'll switch to doing something like that. Maybe they're just going to try to get people on their website and do press releases from now on you know, be interesting to see what happens you know, everybody actually not opposed to like the the the announcement of a new release like this, if anything, it helps. It helps in a lot of ways kind of like Chronicle when these things are coming out. It gives you you little nuggets of information.

18:00 Because let's face it

18:02 We are at the liberty of what information they want to divulge to us we're very fortunate that someone like new riff or heaven Hill will tell you answer any question that you want. But Buffalo Trace, doesn't they, they don't tell you everything and so like to get any kind of like real like actionable information from some of those distilleries that don't give you information is always a plus. You know, it's the funny thing is this one question that came in and said how many people in the roundtable do the news earlier and guilty of insider trading? You know, for me, I don't even know how this was on your radar because stuff like you know stag Jr. Huge t single barrels are I mean, even even a lot of I mean, thankfully, heaven Hill sends us a lot of the samples for every release of the Elijah Craig barrel proof so we have an opportunity to taste it but a lot of times like a new stag, Jr. thing, just it's just not on the radar for me to go and search out among the liquor stores so well, they're gone anyway, they're not on the shelves here. It's like

19:00 Global's a different scenario Yeah, they get kind of compiled in with the you know Weller releases well or 12 where people have to camp out for it so I'm like stag jr No thanks not camping

19:11 or people camping out for stag Jr. He had they just do like they just they budget in

19:18 the raffles in the lotteries in the release. Yeah yeah it's part of the long line scenario maybe not the camping out but at least a two hour wait sort of scenario that's bourbon for you. Mm hmm. All right, let's go ahead. Let's move on to something fun. Well, maybe not fun, fun to talk about. You know, this is something that was an article that came out of Barron's calm on Friday and talked about MGP is now posting its third loss in a row, sorry, third quarter loss in a row. On Friday, the news came out that the stock had actually lost 20% of its value. It's currently I just checked it before we started here around $38 a share. It's high was back in around June of 2018, where it peaked around 19

20:00 $5 and it said at least within the article that it made a bet on aging whiskey, and that was related to blame, and really was a failed bet at the end the day. So I want to kind of look at the finance guys over here, because you all know what this means about, you know, trying to hit numbers, not posting or not meeting your, your expectations, your results. So what is this to you kind of say about the current market of maybe craft distillers that maybe don't need to source as much whiskey anymore?

20:31 Yeah, I mean, I think it's actually pretty telling, you know, if you dig in a little bit, they dig into like the, you know, the price to earnings ratio, all this other stuff in really what it comes down to is, I don't think MGP is getting the prices for their age whiskies that they wanted to, they thought that they could just kind of they were controlling the market, they could demand whatever price they wanted. And, you know, but you also have a lot of these other distilleries you've got Bardstown.

21:00 bourbon popping up you've got some other you know castle and key who's doing a lot of contract distilling, as well as just some other places around the country we've got a lot of decal bourbon that popping on to the market. So

21:11 I think they were just thinking they were in the driver's seat in our kind of getting proved that they weren't.

21:18 You know what that means for a stock forecast? I don't know that may be a little tough, but

21:24 ultimately, I think they're going to have to bring the prices down some they're still extremely high demand for MGP whiskey. But as I think that MGP probably thought that they would be able to release their own black brains with a little little bit of a better result and they haven't really done that, you know, what the remis and then well, they had the

21:46 the one that Oh, shoot with the old master distillers name that they released under his name, met Greg.

21:52 Greg Mets select but then you know that after he left, I assume they didn't care that on so I think between the fact that they haven't been able to really

22:00 thrown brands with much success. And then there's other stuff popping on the market where you know brands and smaller craft distillers they're looking to source. They have more options now. So I think that's the big thing. So let's analyze what MGP is MGP for years has been a supplier to people who were seeking craft spirits or distilled food, basically distill, distill the alcohol use for food. And in 2016, they hired Gus Griffin as their CEO Gus. Gus comes from Brown Forman. He's not from that kind of brought home and certainly had its like it played in the source market. Don't get me wrong, but not to this extent. And that facility in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, had been used as a blending agent for years and Canadian whiskey and American blends. It was never a place to do it's to have its own whiskey until Pernod Ricard sold it to ldi or Angostura

23:00 We're up, and they started selling stuff out into the wholesale market. They saw so much success with this. Unfortunately ldi could not, could not survive, so they had to sell you MGP MGP saw so much success with the source market that they said, Hey, why don't we have all this great whiskey and hey, you taste the honeybell from NGP. And you tell me it's not great. It is fantastic whiskey. And they're like, why don't we do our own brands. So they bring in this guy from Brown Forman Absolutely. Perfect position ready to go. Here's the problem. The company's infrastructure had always been built around

23:41 the wholesale market or the trade industry or other distillers and helping other other brands. They had not successfully done their own brand. They didn't have the sales infrastructure. They didn't have the marketing teams in place. They had some here and there but they did not build brands. And so in 2016, they shifted

24:00 gears and they started let letting go contracts and they started saying, hey, you're gonna have to find another source for your whiskey because we're cutting back. And here we are, we're basically seeing the results of a fantastic distillery not being supported by, you know, something that we always talk about that we hate in marketing and sales or apps. So that without that infrastructure there, you can see the results. And I know the stock market is not like real life, but it's an indication of what what happens.

24:38 Yeah, I mean, I also think when you look at this as a as a distillery going into this, you want to be able to buy whiskey and and have something that you can kind of buy and then sell almost overnight like that. That's kind of the goal a lot of these people went with. And now when even I mean, Ryan and I, we've been down this path we've talked to MGP like the most that they really sell

25:00 to people like us is like four year old product of that they have the 36%. Right? If you're buying a lot of 30, or buying a lot of four year old product, that means you're banking on betting your whole business on aging NGP stock. And so that doesn't necessarily play into the long term category of a lot of distillers where they say like, okay, we're going to get this to get us over this hump, until we can actually start selling our own whiskey. And so, most people unless you're, unless you're trying to build a business where it's NGP all day, every day for the rest of eternity, then it's gonna be hard for I think, to keep to keep selling some of these younger stocks. I think that's right. I also think frankly, Indiana has something to do with it. I mean, they they caught some bad press with Templeton and everyone referring to it as Oh, it's just

25:48 a whiskey made in a factory in Indiana, and they can't call it Kentucky bourbon. And everyone knows when Indiana's on the on the back. That's where they got it from and it's just a brand trying to

26:00 Make make it go until they can sell their own. And in the meantime, you've got brands stocking up on that can call themselves Kentucky bourbon and you've got a JW locally in particular, with all kinds of warehouses that are full of bourbon. And they'll have that cachet that MGP just won't and a half wonder if it's the market figuring that out. Also, you got to think about to Ozi Tyler has a lot of stuff on the market. Bardstown, bourbon, which

26:30 Blake mentioned earlier barsa Berbick and he's got a lot of stuff out there. I mean, the market is almost in about a one or two years if you're starting a brand. It's a buyers market, you know, because a lot of these people are going to be you know, desk selling have also heard rumors as that anything I can confirm it. So there's been some really strong Major blueblood distillers that are starting to say, Well, you know what, maybe we sell some of those two year old age doc that we have in tanks. So you're starting to see some Kentucky probably

27:00 open back up on the market. Well, you know, the old Barton stuff that's 12 and, you know, 17 years old remains there for half the price as you will know, Kenny. Yeah. Well, it is Kenny was alluding to or talking about, you know, us being in the source market. It's hard to I think MGP is actually built a name for themselves especially for the rye whiskey and the older bourbon I think. I think if you carry the rye whiskey, a lot of people will give you a benefit of the doubt because it's damn good rye whiskey, probably the best out there but the problem is is their pricing it's you can pay $1,000 more for aged, you know, product from Tennessee or or Barton's, and

27:43 then a four, you know, a four year old NGP and it's like, what you know, and when you taste it, it's just it's hard to, you know, invest that kind of money for that young of a product. And like Kenny said, You're banking on you know, aging, that stock and whatnot. So

28:00 I don't know, I think they're, they're getting squeezed barsen by recovery, like other said, and castle and key and

28:07 yeah, I think that's just all part of it. And, you know, they, it's adapted. So they'll they'll figure it out, I'm sure, when they shifted their business plan, they left the market open and people took advantage of it, the only way that they can correct this, you know, to get themselves back in place, is to flex their muscle. And I would really, I would really say that they should spin off their brands, and they should go back to servicing, you know, the craft market because they were so good at that and their infrastructure is set for it. And the market accepted it, you know, we can all say what we want about those class action lawsuits and everything, but no one was ever really bitching about the whiskey. And, and and that's that's telling you something

28:50 that's true. When you're going into you're really putting the marketing in a lot of other people's hands in you don't have to bank everything on your own strategy. You know, you're going to get some great

29:00 ideas from from some really inspired people by doing it that way. And I think that's what's built up their name to this point, because there's certainly an enthusiast group that's, you know, follow these brands that are, you know, probably built from enthusiasts themselves that have sourced MGP To get started, you know, done really well with it. And I think that's built such a strong name for them, you know, in that group, and then just by and large, as a lot of people out there that I don't think they care if it's MGP or not, they just care if they feel somewhat connected to the brand and they liked the whiskey enough in That's it, and it's just about getting distribution to the right places. So I think that makes a lot of sense, Fred.

29:39 You know, I mean, maybe this is, you know, certainly could be a bit of a glut here. Everyone's producing like crazy, you know, we're seeing whiskey come to market a lot younger, you know, then it was he came and dropped off a lot of regular everyday products we see on the limited release stuff, of course, you know, but is it to the point now, where it's just gotten that much harder to compete, and people may be overproduced

30:00 A little bit, you know, compared to what the what the projections were, Nick, you bring up a very interesting point. You know, we always talk about the glut but The what? The thing that's different now is that there's this whole lifestyle and tourism impact that American whiskey has jack daniels is enjoying it and so like if you're a fan of it, you can go to Jim Beam, you go to Maker's Mark what a Buffalo Trace and have the experience of your life. No one's going no one's going to Indiana. So you know that's, that's a that's a component there and I'll say this about MGP I hope that they stick with it because I think that's a good company. They just, you know, we all make business mistakes. I think this was a business mistake but I do not want to see them sell I think they have the passion for it. I do not want to see this get in the hands of printer card or Dr. Joe or someone like that, who's just going to turn this into a churn and burn place without any attention, you know, to the whiskey in American American whiskey hands and I don't want to see it be sent off to for blending purposes again, the world got

31:00 taste that whiskey and the world said we like that whiskey from Lawrenceburg, Indiana.

31:07 And the people have spoken here here.

31:11 So while we're also on the source whiskey path right here, you know, as we start looking at the scene of more and more Bourbons coming to the market, there's only a limited supply of sources that things are coming from. And this is one that, you know, we all kind of talked about before on the show, are we starting to see that the bourbon market is now being oversaturated with brands? Because, and don't get me wrong, we're probably problem too. Right? We're part of the problem too. Now, however, like it's it is becoming to the point where there is a lot of private label stuff out there.

31:45 I just saw somebody released one called Blue Ribbon bourbon, which is a revitalization of a label that was a 12 year old Kentucky bourbon about a week or so ago. And I think we're going to end up seeing more and more of these in the next probably few

32:00 months, few years, something like that. So do we see the over saturation of the market starting to happen? Well, I was I was wrong about this about four or five years ago. And so I guess I'm not, I'm not going to be reporting on the demise or the bubble being pop just yet. I mean, I thought four years ago that I'd be buying someone's still out of bankruptcy and I'd be the able to have my own little distillery on the first side hospital. Sure, didn't happen, obviously. And if we can get past tariff issues, and if we can get past trade issues, there's so much capacity overseas, it'll it'll soak all this up, and we won't notice a blip here, despite all of this production coming out. So we just have to think it's going to keep pushing. And I guess I would say, you know, from a, from a production standpoint, there's there's a lot of it, you know, where it's going to get consumed, it's going to grow almost just from

33:00 A pure, like, different brand standpoint, pure number of producers out there. You know, I think there's probably plenty of them out there that do not necessarily have a passionate person behind them. You know, there's a lot of money in it right now. You know, there's plenty that do have passionate, excited people behind them, I think we're going to see, you know, a percentage of those succeed, you know, but they're fighting for shelf space on a limited number of, you know, a limited number of retailers. You know, they've got to go through the distribution system. You know, there's, there's ways around it, of course, to some extent, but I think the reality is, is I think if you flood with flood with just too many different brands, there's just too much noise. And I think we're going to see a challenge for, you know, just an overflow of these to succeed if they don't have the driving force, the passionate people behind them, you know, kind of that gumption to, you know, to stick with it. I don't know, I don't think it's necessarily a quick money play, you know, per se, the same way. It may have been, you know, five, seven years.

34:00 years ago, at this point, I think the competition's a lot tougher. And so you got to pull a little bit more into it. You gotta have something special, you got to bring a destination into the mix, you've got to you just have to do more. You're not just, you know, the bottle something, put it out there and have nothing behind it and succeed. Yeah, one thing, I think with the source, you know, I mean, obviously, like Kenny said, there's a few sources that people get it with the refreshing thing about the source, age market, it's comes with an age statement, like nothing else out there is really coming with age statements. And you know, that's one niche they can hang their hat on. It's like, okay, we can give you a 11 1214 year old, you know, whiskey and you can't hide age. You can't there's just, you know, five, six, it's fine. But when you get 11 1214 there's something special unique you get with those types of Bourbons and still, and we're whiskey geeks. So we noticed these brands, we know where they come from, but the general public, they have no idea. You know, they're like, oh, any idea about this brand? No, it's 12 years old, you know?

35:00 They've been producing forever. Right? They opened up yesterday. Yeah. And so it's,

35:06 you know, as us we probably think, yes. Like, oh, how ridiculous. Can there be another 12 year old baartman brand out there. But the general public, I think, doesn't see that it is see that age number 12 years, and they get excited about it. I guess the other question that kind of comes with this is, we all kind of know what happens when you buy a bunch of stuff. It ends up running out right, it'll go dry. So what do you all kind of see is like some of these brands that are hanging their hat on putting that big number 12 of Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey as their brand. When we know here in maybe a year, maybe six months, maybe it's two years? I'm not too sure. But this will run out?

35:49 Yeah, I mean, I think it's tough to say because I'm, I'm kind of with Brian, where, you know, probably four or five years ago, I thought and by 2020. We'll see a glut nobody's gonna care about

36:00 This stuff anymore and I'm going to pick up, you know,

36:03 maybe not Pappy, but at least like well, or 12 or something again, but the demand is increased even faster than anyone expected. So

36:12 I think people will stick with brands, even if age statements are dropped. I mean, look at Elijah Craig. Granted, that's a massive company behind it, but they've gone through it Look at you know, Jim Beam eight year, the Black Label that they've gone through it and seems to be no issues. So, you know, I think a lot of these things are just blips on the radar radar, and it's a marketing thing that they have to figure out. Even when, you know, you hang your hat on age statement, you have to drop that age statement later. That ultimately what I think it comes down to is, is the is the whiskey good and, you know, it's easy to get stuck on a age statement. If it's good people drink it, people will talk about it and you know, it'll continue to grow so I don't I don't see any signs of slowing down even with it.

37:00 There's going to be a huge flooding of the markets in the next five to six years of Bourbons from New distilleries have been, you know, aging for a while, as well as other major distilleries that have just increased production over the last six to seven years.

37:15 As long as bourbon is cool, people keep buying it.

37:20 You keep it cool, Fred.

37:23 I've got that.

37:25 Pretty sure. So, you know, as we start looking at you know, Bourbons come on the scene. There's one thing that we always also see that that happens in this world of bourbon and that's, that's stickers.

37:39 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon, who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital the world. They're known for the process

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38:50 So, you know, as we start looking at you know, Bourbons come on the scene. There's one thing that we always also see that that happens in this world of bourbon and that's that sticker

39:00 And there's one that the recording of today is Monday and there's one that just kind of get real big real fast and this was a play you know, one thing that I always loved about new riff is somebody that's something about riffs something and so riff pitino of play on Rick Pitino is one sticker that kind of got big on bourbon today. And what this does is it depicts a a kind of like a to face of Rick Pitino you got UK on one side you have Elad another, they have UK holding up a trophy and they've got a bunch of UFL players throwing dollars at strippers on the other side. And this got so big that it got picked up by Kentucky Sports Radio which is a very large syndicate here in the state that then got picked up by barstool sports. And in the barstool sports article, it actually talked about how it was coming from the distillery, right it didn't say it was a pretty

40:00 private group I didn't say it was a pic it like it said new riff. I'm sure they love that. Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess you know any publicity is good publicity but like At what point or I don't know maybe how about practicing a little journalism I Tommy call me old school but hey how about we actually call the company that there's no money in it with it you could call somebody for that. Yeah, yeah I mean all of this I feel like new riff is is an enormous victim right now and it just it drives me crazy because this has this has been happening I've been covering this business for you know 1415 years in all it's never happened this egregiously but like a brand really got damaged today it there's no question about it that someone saw that article in is going to have a bad opinion or saw the tweet is going to have a bad opinion about new riff for the rest of their life and they will not have taken the time to follow up to see you know what the real story was, but new riff got

41:00 Damage today because somebody made a sticker and put it on the bottle and made national national trending news, whatever you want to call it, but you know they're hurt from this or are they hurt? I mean they sure they're they're hurt I mean that's

41:20 but they're getting press on this folks who had never heard of this small distillery in Northern Kentucky now know about new riff and they're going to hear a lot of response to me about Oh, new riff is actually you know, get get the get the new riff. I mean, this is a fantastic single barrel. Well, I don't think anyone actually most people, you know, the way the world goes with this stuff, it's it's going to be the one thing that someone clicks on and then they're going to see a cat and they're going to go to something else. So I that I don't think there's any kind of real value in any kind of trending topic. I mean, there are multiple studies of somebody who comes up with something you know, clever on Twitter.

42:00 They don't their Twitter followers don't grow, you know, they get 30,000 retweets and what have you and their Twitter followers grow by 20 or something silly like that. And, and, and the fact is, is that within the Kentucky Community, you know, they're already kind of an outlier because they're in Northern Kentucky. They're not in Lexington, or they're not unlovable, and they're not in Bardstown. So they're an outlier as it is. And, you know, this sort of thing, puts them in kind of like a weird position in the state. And it has made state news. It's been tweeted by Matt Jones. And so everyone sees it, and all anyone had to do was pick up the phone and call the distillery. And then there's the whole thing could have been like, hey, this barrel group is doing this using this. They just pick up a sticker. Now it's free speech, right. And the distilleries can't dictate to anybody what they can do to the bottle after it's been purchased the same way that Nike can't dictate to you what you do with a pair of shoes that you pick up, you know from shoe locker or

43:00 Whatever. I mean, when I was a kid, I used to spray paint shoes. And that was probably stupid at the time, but I did it. No Shoe Company was coming after us to, you know that we couldn't spray paint our shoes. And that's really what it is here is that you have to practice you know, practice some, some, you know, some common sense of say like, Hey, is this a good idea? Does this pass the smell test? And I think this, this whole thing has

43:28 it could be the one sticker that, you know, puts the whole

43:33 you know, takes the fun out of all of this. I mean, honestly, a lot of people don't like the stickers. I love them. I love looking at everybody's stickers. I like getting on social media. And seeing people's post about it. I thought it was great. And this one even if

43:49 I mean I it was too far, it was too far.

43:55 actually makes it cool with younger people and that's growing.

44:00 It looks like because most bourbon brands are like, old man kind of like real old school kind of thinking. I don't know, the barstool sports, you know, they have a lot of millennial. Most of you know followers and that's where Bourbons growing and that's the future of bourbon. And I think they'll probably think it's cool. I know it probably drives me crazy Fred that that's what they love, they love like, I like tweeting and all this stuff and I and I, and I watch barstool sports. I listened to the pizza, the guys pizza reviews are great. And I just, you know, this is just one where I don't know it's just I would have to agree with Fred where I thought this one kind of went over the line a little bit on on a sticker but but the press was fantastic. You know, it's you can't pay for that kind of that kind of viral effect. But was it wasn't Ken Lewis, the one who on the on bourbon pursuit said he didn't like the stickers and is like, you know, I understand people are free to do whatever they want, but we put a lot of time and effort into those

45:00 bottles and

45:02 we prefer that then they stay the way they are you're right it was killing us on this podcast and said that I think he's the only the only you know owner I can really think of who's talked about that now granted new riff gets way more just because of the the funniness of the the name way more stickers and craziness than other ones but overall you know it definitely hit an audience but i mean i don't know i can't condone putting strippers on your bourbon bottle that's just a little far for me. So here's here's another side okay, so I like again that that audience that's getting touched is not going to get converted for new roof. It's just not they're not going to take the time to go seek out a bottle if they do they're going to do it in Jersey where the bottles not available and find a bottle go to seal box calm

45:57 should a quick link in the show notes.

46:00 Nice I like it. This is the whole setup, you know, not what this stuff but this is this is a this is a trend that that social media has brought that a lot of people do not appreciate and that's the social responsibility aspect of, of, of alcohol, their actual laws about what can be put on the bottle and their actual laws about what the distillers can promote. Yeah, putting a stripper on the bottle is is is within many violations now obviously new rifton do that. But I have seen multiple bourbon groups have a have their child hold the bottle and you know quickly those things often get taken down. But people don't practice they don't they don't look at. They don't look at the bottle as like some kind of

46:55 regulated you know, piece of real estate and

47:00 You know in these kinds of things are going to end up hurting the the distilleries, the community, the hobby, all of it. Because we're all the the bourbon world's already under, you know, every Attorney General in the country is already looking at, you know, the secondary markets as like some kind of like easy press release for them to take down and arrest arrest Joe Schmo in a parking lot in Pennsylvania. They're like, pound their chests and say like, hey, look at us, we're taking down illegal illegal drinking and legal selling. And so, you know, we don't need this kind of activity happening. Because all it does is it puts it puts a bigger Bullseye on the entire industry. And it just frustrates the shit out of me that people don't get that when it comes to like having their kids next alcohol when it comes to the stickers when it comes to anything and the fact is, at any given moment, like Facebook or whoever could just snap

48:00 It's all gone, it'll pop up in something else, but it'll be gone in that particular medium. And that is where you know that the stick that particular sticker is in that same kind of categories, right there.

48:13 Yeah, I mean, we've talked about stickers plenty of times on the show before and, you know, whether it's you know, you want to commemorate something or whether it's a an opportunity for you to pay homage to somebody I know we've seen people that have like had Freddie on the bottle before I know there's people are afraid to on the sticker. You know, there's a lot of fun things that get played with it. This just happened to be one that blew up rather quickly. And only because I think it

48:39 It had a little sensitive subject around to it, but you know, it's a it's it's Kentucky and it's basketball in the day. So maybe that's just why it started really supporting it. You know, you shouldn't ever went to frickin level.

48:55 There's just there's no restrictions on the rival

49:00 Read between Kentucky and u of L so that that that's part of it. And that's, that's why it's on. That's why Matt Jones is is tweeting it. And that's why it gets on barstool sports. But I think overall there's there's obviously the risks, Fred, that you point out. I think overall, it'll end up being fine for new riff. I think what it's going to do though is it's going to call the attention to all the distilleries about what goes on these, these stickers for the private groups, because a lot of them use trademark images. I mean, there's plenty with with Marvel Comics, images that are trademark images. There's, there's there's just free use of anything out there that are protected marks, and the distilleries are going to have to have some responsibility for that. I absolutely disagree. I disagree with you on that because once that once it is bottled, it is going to the distributor and it's being sold to a retailer. So the the

50:00 The responsibility on this is going to be on the retailer. If they are putting that sticker on there at the distillery, there's some liability there, I would assume. Yes. Yeah, it's wherever they go place. Yeah, that's where a lot of them come on. I mean, I've know some that go on on post sale, but a lot of them go on at the at the distillery, they'll give them the sticker and it goes on there, that that's going to be restricted. Now once it gets into into the group's hands and gets whatever stickers on it, that can still be trademark infringement, but you're gonna have to go after the group for it, which will be next to impossible. So if it's if it's Disney trying to protect a Marvel mark, they're going to go to the distillery and say you need an agreement with whoever does private selections that they will not be using any infringing marks. I wonder what Rick Pitino thought when he saw

50:55 the he says

50:58 he's like, I just can't get away from this trip again.

51:00 thing, you know, you know, he's he's probably, you know, he hasn't did he Sue anyone with all the coverage that he got? I don't think you know, probably now i don't think i don't think he will I think he's just trying to get another job and to be honest with you, if the Oklahoma State job pops up, I pray to God that he goes there because we could we could use a winning season anyway, that this whole thing is

51:26 it it just kind of like plays into a whole nother

51:31 you know, conversation to be had about, you know, what is,

51:37 you know, what, what is the standard of, I guess, being cordial, you know, we've lost in, in an overall society, we just, we just put pictures up with people and, and, and have a good laugh at it. And yet we have 12 year olds trying to kill themselves on a daily basis, because they're getting made fun of online. It's like

52:00 At some point in our society, we're going to have to take some,

52:04 some responsibility for what we're posting online. And this is this is a part of all that it's a greater conversation. But

52:13 you know,

52:15 it's sad, it's sad that it's accepted. And people just go on with it and have a good laugh. But the fact is, you know what, my grandpa wasn't doing this you know, when when they were trying to you know, create a cut, you know, basically rebuild this country after World two. And you know, and here we are, and it's just kind of like, this is what we're This is what we do on a daily basis. That's it

52:42 your mood and change the mood? Yeah, go look a little like a good device. The subject I feel like the you know, the the router game will fall every problem.

52:52 All right, let's move on. I think we're ready.

52:57 I'm ready. That went deep. So you know, as we are

53:00 Talk about private barrels and you know, private pics and stuff like that. You know, I think there's one and I think, actually, Blake before we can go on to that I think you had a had a sticker prediction for 2020 as well. Did you want to kind of really? Yeah, yeah, it kind of, to piggyback on that a little bit, I think there's going to be a brand or distillery that comes out and says, you know, they can't control it. But they will be very boisterous, kind of how the Van Winkle have been about the secondary about, you know, no stickers on their bottles. Like we said, you know, if the bottle comes untouched, gets in the hands of a customer. You know, my six year old can color on it, I can throw a sticker on it, it doesn't matter. But a lot of times when these things are getting advertised, I think they could stop it and you know, somebody put it in the chat. That's why steel box puts the sticker just in the box and doesn't put it on there. But I think there's going to be somebody else who comes out and says, You know what, we don't like that. And we'd prefer that you know?

54:00 People not do this to our bottles and in there a little more outspoken about it. So I think that's coming especially after today. You think that's what it's new riff Blake or do you think somebody Yeah, I mean they already kind of said it. I think it's new riff I mean you think about the the major ones are getting stickers. New riff will it a lot of Buffalo Trace pics you know Buffalo Trace Weller's, all that kind of thing. Will it seems to be okay with it? I don't know. I've never seen them have an issue. I've seen them do some distillery releases where they have stickers. But yeah, I think it'll be new riff, you know, especially after this backlash, that that does say something.

54:42 You know, some people kind of get the fun of it and others, you know, to his point that he made on the podcast it was we put a lot of work and design effort into this bottle. We prefer that it stays the way it is. So, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see what they're able to get away with it.

55:00 Cuz, you know, they can't, they can't dictate free speech? Well, I'm very much in opposition of, of poor taste, I also support free speech. And, you know, if when someone gets that bottle, and they can put whatever they want on it, and I think the only thing could probably dictate his say, you can't, we will not be putting this label on the bottle. And if we catch you doing it, we're not going to resell to your group. I think that's about the extent of it. And honestly, I think that would be the biggest return of all they said, Look, you know, we're just not going to let you do another pic. If this is how the bottles are going to be treated. I don't think there's anything wrong with that legally, you know, they're allowed to choose which groups they allow to buy barrels.

55:49 So I don't know it take a little bit of the fun out of it. I mean, I know we had some fun with our rollers trail pick, so it does add some fun, but overall, I think it's gonna

56:00 If it continues, you know, they'll have to at least acknowledge the fact that they're not associating with with a lot of these stickers. I mean, it we can all, you know, prevent all this by just, you know, practicing common sense, right.

56:18 That's way too much to ask these.

56:22 Remember we started what what is bourbon? bourbon is drama. Yeah. So that's what it's all about. Yes, it is, always has been, by the way. So as we as we continue this theme of talking about single barrel selections and stuff like that, there's there's one that's sort of leading the pack and kind of made a big splash this year already. I know it's rolling in January. But the biggest news was that brown Forman is now coming out with a barrel proof and 100 proof option for their single barrel program of old forester and will be retiring their 90 proof version. This all is going to come into effect around the May timeframe that kind of begs

57:00 Question. What's taking everything else so long to get on board with this? Gosh, I applaud them for listening. I mean, yeah, absolutely. I'm Foreman's like just they are like nailing it on all aspects the past like two, three years, they just been doing great releases at great prices like putting out ever since Jackie's joined. I mean, it's just they've been nailing it out of the park and they're listening to fans. They're doing everything like I commend them so much like it's it's incredible. I've done an old forester pick at barrel strength it's absolutely incredible. You know, and it's I'm so excited for this unfortunately our pic will be at 90 proof because it's not before

57:39 before May So, but Gosh, way to go brown Forman like talk about company and listens to people and then listen to their fans like I applaud that. Absolutely applaud them. I mean that's on those barrel pics there have been some of the best straight out of the barrel bourbon, I've have had hands down and we've been

58:00 crying for it for five years, and maybe it takes that long but we finally have so I'm happy. Yeah, I put this in a post today about I've never been that huge of a brown form and fan for over the years. But there Honestly, I think they did better than any other distiller I can think of in 2019 really last couple years with their whiskey row or releases, you know, the the hundred proof raw or the straight rye that they released. That's like 23 bucks a bottle. And now this with the barrel picks, what does every single person say? Whenever they go to do the barrel pics, what will they let's do it a barrel proof. And the answer's no, you got to water it down to 90 you gotta water You know, one of seven. There's something hard to do. We got to do a TTB filing. Yeah, yeah. And I don't think they just continue. I thought the old forester birthday bourbon was fantastic this year. So yeah, I mean, kind of hats off to them. I think they're

59:00 They're crushing it with the whiskey crowd right now or the, you know, the enthusiast crowd at least. So, I want to get in on their barrel program now. Like, who do I need to call on that one, but now I'm excited to see what else comes out of there because we know they have a lot of good barrels sitting so it should be a lot of good barrels to kind of, so a little breaking golf. Sorry.

59:23 Breaking News. Yeah. Okay. Let the man talk. Okay, kind of sorry, Fred, kind of to that point.

59:31 Blake, you know, I think you know, talking about the enthusiast crowd, you know, you gotta wonder if if the Steelers are looking at it as a real small portion of the community that does really want that is going to be impacted by that and you know, look at it as from a cost benefit that maybe it's not there, you know, but that kind of listening to the enthusiasts and even if it you know, the single barrels and barrel proof only do get into a small number a hands, you gotta wonder if they're looking at kind of that spiral effect of, you know, if that kind of interesting

1:00:00 goes down from there to just people's association with the brand. So kind of talking to everybody, you know, the enthusiasts, I think we're relatively speaking a pretty small group, you know, when you look at what really sells and where the numbers really get posted, but we're a pretty vocal group too, I think and it's great that they're listening and making their products better. And yeah, I mean, across the board when you have those pics and you're there and you're tasting all the barrel, and it's so good then they water it down and it's it's not the same It's a shame to know that it's going to be watered down and they're basically going to ruin what's otherwise a fantastic bourbon.

1:00:36 Well, and so I wouldn't go to room. Sorry.

1:00:40 I want to hear what you say. But I've some of your and watered down some of those old forester private selections have been fantastic. Sorry. I just mean, I just mean in general, you know, yeah, I'm with zero proof. It's fantastic water down. It's just not anything near where it was. Yeah, you know, it's really those it actually some tastes better with

1:01:00 Water than they do it barrel proof, you know and so it's kind of funny how that goes to. All right, go Fred. All I was going to say is because of everything that she has done and is continuing to do, and her

1:01:14 her effort to find herself we're putting Jackie's I can on the cover. bourbon plus. All right, fantastic. She if you guys can beat me out,

1:01:32 pulled away. We should probably

1:01:34 more community vote next time.

1:01:38 Jackie's gonna win every day of the week. Yeah. The photography on her is amazing, but this story is about her. We know about the whiskey side and that's there but on the personal side, she's she fought like hell. And I got to tell you all when I tell you that every single great thing that is happening on the old forester line.

1:02:00 is in large part because of Jackie's I can. But also you know who she would say is her partner in crime Campbell Brown, the president Campbell deserves a lot of credit for taking a brand that was kind of like forgotten in the world and giving it the love and attention that it's deserved. And that's a good brown Forman on it sharp dude, he's done. They've done amazing things since he joined. So that's a great point. Yep. And I guess kind of like last question that we do, as we kind of wrap this up is, you know, as we see, brown Forman come out with this barrel proof single offering, and I know that the eyes are on one company, now that everybody kind of looks at and says like, okay, we love We love to taste your stuff, a barrel proof, we want to see a barrel proof offering. I mean, is it do we actually see this as a change of the bourbon consumer market, where more people are actually opting to actually want to have barrel proof expressions, rather than saying like, Okay, well, I'll just

1:03:00 Take this 94 proof counterpart because that's all you're going to give me. Haven't we always been there? We have. But I mean, now you see the them actually starting to adjust to maybe some market reactions. Yeah, well, the single girls are like, really for whiskey geeks. It's not for the general populace. So, I mean, but the general population, they even think 94 proof is fucking hot as hell. They're like, you know, they even like 86 they're like, Oh my gosh, it's so hot. You know, but uh,

1:03:31 I think so. Yeah.

1:03:35 Yeah, I'm Ryan, I come across this people. I wonder their way. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:40 What has happened is they finally have listened to the data and listen to the people who are out in the market saying that new consumers and women and people who are wanting to, you know, to drink in a sophisticated fashion, want higher proof and I believe it you

1:04:00 No, Peggy no Stevens has played a big, big role when she handed over the bourbon women's research that women preferred basically Booker's as the as their drink of choice and the like every day that you can find in the in the market. And so when they started seeing that data, they're like, Oh, well, we all need to kind of, you know, create, you know, something else, you know, that's a little bit more meeting that demand. That timeline of that research also was when Booker's increase their pricing By the way, but

1:04:36 but it's just nice to see that I, you know, for years, we have said that they, they, that the distillers don't listen, they do listen, they just create a new brand and jack up the price at a higher proof, you know, so that's, that's what they're doing. So this is a little bit of like, be very careful with what you wish for, because suddenly you're going to get larceny barrel

1:05:00 Proof and it's not that good. Or you're going to get here you're going to get something like four year old Jim Beam, a cash drink, and it's like you're, you're drinking out of the gasoline hose or something. So we can drink doesn't mean it's good. It means it's high in proof, and you can bring it down to how you want it. And that's really what it comes down to. But the general populace anytime you like, drink with somebody that's not been environment where they where they want, they went smooth, they went to be smooth, it's that they went smooth, and you know, that's the word and so I hate that word, but I do it. It's the general population. They don't want it to burn. They want it, you know, easy drinking, they want that. So they'll I think they'll still that'll be their main focus, but it's nice for us geeks that there are putting those you know what the hot when I when I taste test with consumers, you know, around the country, you know, the hot one of the hottest Bourbons that they find

1:05:57 and this is this is odd but

1:06:00 They Jim Beam white label is the hot you know they every single time they taste oh my gosh this is this is not as smooth as that one and they'll point at Baker's you know, so I'll do like a fly wide

1:06:14 and in one's obviously like 27 proof points higher and smoothness is not necessarily proof and that that's the problem we lack we lack an education across the board smooth just kind of gets thrown out there. You get these liquor distributor reps you don't know you know, two shifts from Sunday and they're just trying to meet their quotas and so everyone's pushing you know bottle cases and you get then you get a big giant stack of baseball Hayden in a store and you have somebody want to play you know, paper football through it.

1:06:49 That's an Instagram post by the way.

1:06:52 But what it what is smooth, there is no definition for smooth and so that's the result. Higher proof gaming good. It can mean shit.

1:07:00 Who knows? All right, well, no, go ahead. And one one comment. I have been loving the comments tonight. I mean, I've been cracking up on something you've been putting on there, Kenny. And these are great. And for the life of me, I've tried to log in and I think I got kicked off of the broadcast when I tried to login so I could actually respond to some of them but my bad on that but great comments everyone tonight. Yeah, absolutely. And so while we kind of finish that up that that kind of makes me want to do one more question. What's the most annoying term you find in bourbon is smooth is up there.

1:07:36 Juice juice has to break at least my top three crotch shot. Yeah.

1:07:44 I when I think when I hear brown water, I just I think a toilet water. It's not a feeling. I don't think I think bourbon should be as far away from brown water as possible. Two very different things. Tater

1:07:57 Oh, who said Tater? I said Tater.

1:08:00 Why don't you like Tanner? Just gets annoying after a while. It was cool for like a year. I feel like everyone's just it's like, oh, if there's someone new to bourbon, oh, it's a tear. It's like okay like,

1:08:12 not every thing that you dislike about bourbon is tator activity. So

1:08:19 one thing I still love it sheltered. I'll

1:08:24 do like that shelter it is good.

1:08:27 sticker shelter.

1:08:30 I love it. My least favorite term in whiskey This is going to shock everybody. Boss likely is Angel share. Angel share is a dreamt up word or term or phrase in a marketing room that essentially had been, you know, something that had been tracked, you know, since the 1500s for tax purposes, and that's the evaporation from from the barrel, but you ledge or

1:09:00 shortages or actually in the 1800s. They call the angel share outages. And you know, those are not sexy terms. So I hate the term Angel share, but I still use it because people understand it. I think I hate fermentation tank, because every distillery thinks they're fermentation special and it's not. And they spend so much time on and they use a Cypress

1:09:26 dang from 100 years ago.

1:09:31 These things are getting cleaned and everything else but also I'll throw out adding a bunch of Z's to anything.

1:09:39 That's, you know, the Pappy, the Bourbons. Yeah, drop that one as well.

1:09:47 Good deal. I love it and on something like that. So, Nick sounds like marzipan.

1:09:53 You know what? Listen, it happens every note and I that I picked up and and the only reason why anybody knows about

1:10:00 Because on this podcast before I joined, Ryan's sitting across screens, like, what is marzipan? I'm looking at him straight in the eye and I'm like, he's serious.

1:10:12 When you let a redneck host, but that was, that was funny. I had no idea until that moment that that was something that people kind of like clung to. But yeah, it's funny like if you go through like my tasting notes, there's actually not that many that I've noted marzipan.

1:10:32 Enough, I guess someone needs to do a study. I don't think I know if I've ever had marzipan or at least has been a long time. Or somebody like you, Fred that saved every review you've ever done with the you know, like the stag juniors. You did and they're going to go back and find him.

1:10:48 Yes, they probably will figure out what was that first time you use marzipan? Yep. nail down the date. Alright, that was fun, guys, awesome roundtable tonight. It was it was a pleasure to kind of go and you know, we hit a lot

1:11:00 A lot of good topics tonight from everything from stag, Jr to MGP and then source whiskey to stickers and then even more more single barrel selection. So as we kind of round this one out I want to give each one of you opportunity to say where people can go and find more about you and read your books and your articles and buy your Bourbons and everything like that. So Brian, I'll let you go ahead and go first. Yeah appreciate it. Great time night you can find me at all the all the social media sipping corn and bourbon justice calm Have a great night everybody. Blake once you go next. Yeah, so I'm Blake from bourbon or you can also find me at seal box calm we do have fun announcement coming later this week. We did a round table pick that will be releasing to everyone most likely Friday. So be on the lookout for that. But once again, guys, thanks for having me. It's been a lot of fun. And it's it's good to be back in 2020 and I'm Nick from breaking bourbon breaking bourbon. com. Find us on social media.

1:12:00 At breaking bourbon. Thank you guys for having me tonight, despite some of the mic issues. Hopefully we got that worked out Kenny. But yeah, thanks again and look forward to a lot of these into 2020. I'm sure we'll have a lot of exciting things going on this year. And we'll be right back again talking about how great a year was. It's gonna feel like it was yesterday. So thanks, guys. Absolutely. Cheers to that and make sure you follow Fred MiniK on all his social channels follow bourbon pursuit everywhere as well and proceeds also on tik tok. Now you go find us there so Tick Tock numbers.

1:12:34 15 year olds are there.

1:12:37 Hey, we're trying to figure out how we reach new audiences.

1:12:42 That was just Kinney doing dance moves. Like I wasn't sure if this was affiliated. I mean, me and Fred are totally independent of this

1:12:52 claimer about pursuit series we need to blame but we are not involved in this endeavor.

1:13:00 him at a little dance going on. Yeah, like we need we all need to get out of this now. Yeah, but in your defense you did set at where you have to be 21 to follow you on Tick Tock So, Thompson, Fred always waiting for the legal issues. There you go.

1:13:15 Alright, well cheers, everybody. Thank you. Once again, if you want to help support this podcast, you want to actually watch this live be a part of it as well. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. We appreciate all the support from all of our Patreon followers out there and supporters. It's a big help to this and keeping this continue to grow. And if you can also leave us review rate this podcast.com slash bourbon. Go ahead do there and you can leave a review on Spotify, iTunes or pod chaser. So with that, cheers, y'all and we will see you all next week. Cheers. Cheers. Good night, everybody.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Old Fitzgerald Bottled-In-Bond Fall 2019

Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:30:21 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-6omqfqw9g&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Old Fitzgerald Fall 2019. This 15 year old bourbon is 100 proof and $150 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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236 - How the Distribution Game is Played with Mike Bridges

Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:30:31 GMT

It’s the topic everyone loves to hear about, but hardly anyone is willing to talk about. And that’s the inside secrets of distribution. Distributors “hold all the chips” so it’s time we find out how deals are made. We sit down with Mike Bridges, who owns Jack's Liquor Beer Wine in Fremont, Nebraska and was once a rep for Nebraska Wine and Spirits which was later purchased by Republic. He talks about what really happens behind those closed doors, who gets allocations (high volume stores vs small mom and pop shops), and consumer frustrations. There’s a lot of ground to cover in this one.

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Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the smoked grain debate.
How did you get into bourbon?
Tell us about your time in the food and beverage industry.
How did you transition into a distributor position?
What was the distributor called at that time?
How do allocations work?
Is there any transparency between the rep and the business?
Do they tell you how you can get the allocated items?
What motivates a distributor to sell products?
How do distributors spend money to get retailers to carry products?
Talk about high volume retailers vs mom and pop retailers.
Do your distributors take price gouging seriously?
How much blame are you putting on the distillers for not getting allocated items? Are they using the distributors to take the blame?
Would a distributor advise a brand to raise a price?
Do stores ever do favors for distributors in order to get allocated items?
What would be a better system?
Are allocations really down every year?
How has your view changed as a retailer now?

0:00 I'm not bashing the wholesaler so to speak, you know, I consider him like my wife can live with her can live without her. I mean

0:21 what's up everybody it is Episode 236 of bourbon pursuit. I'm kenny. And we got some news to cover, so let's get to it. The Kentucky Derby Museum is back with the legend series. It offers three nights of casual in depth conversations with pioneers and titans of the bourbon industry. And each night in the series is hosted by our very own Fred MiniK in each evening features a different bourbon master who handpicks a selection of Bourbons to go and taste or each legend shares his or her expertise and engages with guests through their senses as they taste fine Bourbons and enjoy appetizers as well, on January 23. We'll have Peggy noe Stevens who was our guest back on episode 198.

1:00 into a fourth on Thursday, January 30. We have none other than Freddy Johnson who we all know and love. And he's been back on episode 59 in 115. And wrapping it up on February 6 is Connor Driscoll who you heard most recently on episode 231. tickets to each event is $75 or there is a complete package for $200. You can buy your tickets right now by going online to Derby museum.org Woodford Reserve has released its annual expression of the double double oak bourbon. It's part of its annual series that celebrates master distiller Chris Moore's his commitment to innovation and craftsmanship. double double oak is the result of finishing fully mature, Woodford Reserve and double oak bourbon for an additional year and a second heavily toasted but lightly charred new oak barrel. The extra year in the barrel creates a bourbon that is distinctly spicier than its original counterpart, known for its sweeter taste and finish. The product is available in limited quantities at Woodford Reserve distillery.

2:00 And select liquor stores around Kentucky coming in at 90.4 proof with a suggested retail price of 4999 for a 375 ml bottle. Oklahoma Attorney General Mike hunter issued an opinion Tuesday that could affect who could potentially obtain a license to sell alcohol and the state. residency requirements for obtaining a retail license for wine and spirits or even though wholesalers license and Oklahoma are likely to be found in violation of the Commerce Clause and the US Constitution. Oklahoma currently has a five year residency requirement for those seeking to obtain a license to sell Wine and Spirits at retail or wholesale level. In other words, a liquor store owner has to approve he or she has been a resident for five years before applying for the retail license. The same goes to wholesalers. Tennessee had this similar requirement of two years residency for some liquor license. And that rule was challenged in the US Supreme Court deemed it unconstitutional back in 2019. So we'll see where this is gonna play out this weekend.

3:00 celebrates 160 years of early times whiskey. So here's a quick history lesson. early times was originally produced using the clinical early times method of whiskey making, and this consisted of mashing grain and small tubs and boiling beer and whiskey and copper stills over open fires. This unique method of production continued until 1918. With prohibition, five years barrels of mature early times whiskey sat idle in the distilleries, classic ironclad maturation warehouses, in dire need of whiskey to operate as a bottler and wholesaler during Prohibition owlsley Brown owner of brown Forman acquired early time stocks in 1923, the company's first ever purchased brand, and it resumed sales under its medicinal whiskey permit. As prohibition came to a close brown Forman geared up to begin distilling early times once again. To keep up with the bourbon brands growth brown Forman acquired the old Kentucky distillery which later became early times distillery providing a brand a home of its own.

4:00 Whiskey popularity grew early times one of the first brands to recognize and capitalize on the mixability of bourbon and cocktail trends, which led to become the number one Kentucky bourbon in America back in 1953. Today the historic plant has now named the brown Forman distillery. But it remains home of early times and stands as the longest continually operating distillery under the same ownership in Kentucky. This year early times is honoring their tradition with a throwback advertisement that once said, The whiskey that made Kentucky whiskeys famous. If you follow bourbon pursuit on any of our social handles, you seen that Ryan and I we took a quick trip to Woodinville whiskey company last week. We took the 6am flight from Louisville to Seattle drove up to Woodinville, which is surrounded by 100 plus wineries and sat down with the co founder Brett Carlyle and got to know more about their story and what they're producing for an upcoming podcast. Then after that we tasted through some barrels and selected to that will become prestigious

5:00 series, y'all, Ryan and I, we can't even begin to describe how good their bourbon is. They're doing everything right with locally sourced grains, a finely tuned still an operation that was under the guidance of the late great Dave pickerel. He goes going into the barrel at 110 proof aging and Rick structures two hours away that mimic the climate of the Midwest, and nothing is getting pulled until it's the least five years old. And if you're in the know already, and you've tasted it, then you're probably already a fan. But we are super excited to be able to get these special barrels into the hands of all of you soon and looking forward to an eventual release from Woodinville whiskey as well. Make sure you follow us on social and Patreon for all the latest updates for pursuit series. For today's show, it's one of those podcast topics that people love to hear about. It's the inside Secrets of the trade that usually no one's willing to talk about. However, we sit down with Mike bridges. He owns Jack's liquor, beer and wine in Fremont, Nebraska. He was also once a rep for distributor for

6:00 braska wine and spirits, he talks about what really happens behind those closed door deals. Who gets the allocation? Is it the high volume stores? Or is it the small mom and pop shops? And where does most of that consumer frustration really stem from? We cover a lot of ground in this one, I'm sure you're really going to like it. You know, we like to see what people think of the show as well. Leaving reviews helps new people searching podcasts, find us. And you can help us by going to rate this podcast.com slash bourbon. And you can leave a review for iTunes, Spotify or pod chaser. We always appreciate seeing these as it helps grow the show and find new listeners. All right, now let's get on with it. You can sit back and relax. Let's hear what Joe has to say from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

6:46 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Tasting whiskey straight from the barrel was truly a life changing moment for me. In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits so everyone could have the experience of tasting whiskey, a cast strength next time ask your bartender for

6:59 barrell bourbon.

7:01 I'm Fred MinnicK. And this is above the char. If you follow me on Instagram, you may recall this post I put up a few few months ago. It was when I was in California. Somebody had brought me a bottle of war Bringer mesquite, smoked Southwest bourbon finished in a Sherry cask. I was very excited to taste this because anytime I see mosquito on anything, my mouth starts to water. And I think of my childhood days eating all that great mesquite smoked barbecue sopping up that sauce with a piece of white bread. I love mesquite barbecue, so good. But anyway, I digress. I'm not talking about barbecue. I'm talking about whiskey. So I was very excited to taste this stuff. And which bag did I put it in? I put it in my carry on not my check in so TSA was very glad to take the bottle from me. They actually thanked me later and said they would have a good time with it. So

8:01 You're listening to say, I hope you enjoyed it, but you also kind of suck. So anyway, I get a bottle sent to me from the company because I really wanted to taste this stuff. And I tasted just the other day and I was kind of like nervous about tasting is because I love mesquite so much that I kind of, I'm always I'm always a little nervous when someone plays around with one of my favorite flavors. And sure enough, it kind of hit the mark. I tasted the musky, you really cannot. You can't. You can't taste this without getting a big ol mouthful of mesquite and it got me to thinking what are some other products out there that are using smoke techniques for the grains? Well, there's actually quite a few. One of my favorite is the MB Roland dark fire they use a dark

9:00 Fire technique to smoke their corn. Dark fires a term that they use in Western Kentucky for a procedure in which they kind of like slow smoke the tobacco before they roll it up and in be rolling, which is in Christian County, Kentucky, applied that nice local technique to their whiskey and it shows and they're fantastic. But here's the thing. They are so far left or to the right, of what we anticipate bourbon to taste like that. If you put if you put this in a flight of regular Kentucky bourbon, you know this mesquite smoke bourbon or the dark fire bourbon, you're going to think it's flawed if you don't know it's got a special smoking technique to it. So over the years, we have had all of these incredible debates about whether or not barrel finishes such as angels envy.

10:00 In fact, urban on now, when you have the smoking techniques being applied, we might have to start applying a new debate to the conversation of what his bourbon is bourbon allowed to have smoke applied to the grains. I think that's a question. We need to start asking because traditionally it has not been applied to grains. Now it's, it's applied throughout in scotch and Irish whiskey. But if we start seeing a political of smoke grains enter Kentucky bourbon or other states Bourbons, then what we're going to find is there's going to be all kinds of different flavor profiles in Kentucky bourbon, or Missouri bourbon or whatever type of bourbon. You may think that's good, some traditionals may think it's not. Either way. I'm open for

11:00 debate. I think it's a good conversation to have. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook and let me know your opinion as to whether or not smoked bourbon should in fact be bourbon or should it be called something else? So I look forward to your comments and we may even read them on the air in the next episode of bourbon pursuit. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, hit me up on that Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Fred minich. Until next week, cheers

11:37 Welcome back to that episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon the trio here tonight talking for a really fun subject because this is actually one that we had talked about it for probably Ryan and I, we probably discussed it for maybe over a year to now of trying to find somebody from the I don't know it's tough to kind of say like put an adjective to a

12:00 But from the distributor world, and having to come on the show and kind of reveal some dirty secrets, because it's, it's something that's really, really hard to get, you know, nobody for the actual companies seem to want to talk about it. But we kind of backdoored a little bit to actually make it happen. So I'm kind of really excited to get this juicy scoop on what happens and why liquor stores get certain allocations why some don't do some play favorites. Some, some maybe do some don't. I don't know. But I guess we'll find out. Uh, you know, what do you all think we're going to get into tonight, Ryan, I'll hand it over to you.

12:36 Well, I think distributors are an evil empire and an organized mafia.

12:44 But I you know, with that, I don't exactly know what all goes on what takes place. So it would be I am interested to see what goes on and what takes place and you know, maybe there's a world we don't understand and and why. Maybe

13:00 Our negative outlook on distributors is maybe not the correct one but I have a feeling it might be and so yeah, just bring it to you. You're already like my magic eight ball I already know what it's gonna say exact I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt you know so that's why we have them on but I know for sure really excited about because like I said we we hit on distributors all the time and especially being in the business now we've made them more so well I mean, let's give some context of the story like so what what is it that that we're it let's not say hate right we're not hate because we have to work with them. It's it's a nice Yeah, well, but kind of talk about like, what is the what what's what's the what's really grinding your gears right now with it? I mean, basically, it's just a pastor in you know, for big brands, I can totally understand because the distributors out there marketing and selling for you, helping push product but like small brands, it's really just a pastor and it it seems like they're just getting a piece of pie just because it's mandated through law.

14:00 And it just doesn't seem fair right to the people that are actually making the product don't make as much money as the distributors or percentage as much as distributors or the retailer. And and you know that's that's why I don't like it. Wish we could all be DC Yep, exactly we got a we got a long way to go until that happens. What about you Fred Do you have a Do you have a probably as a more realistic outlook on love or disdain some of my best friends are distributors like very higher up high very high up in the food chain and San Francisco world spirits competition has several fellow judges who are distributors so I know the business very well. And and I know kind of you know that they are the they are the cogs that really make this this world work. And they also have a very powerful lobby and it's

15:00 It's incredible. It's incredible, because, you know, what a lot of Ryan said is is not untrue. And the distributors would say the same thing.

15:14 You know, big, but at the same time, the reason why distributors are they have so much power is they can always go to like, you know, the government and say like we are the We Are the line of legal age drinking, like you don't have

15:36 people ensuring that accounts aren't serving,

15:41 you know, serving to minors and the distributors actively, actually kind of, you know, police that so they they have built in a network in the in this country that our government cannot cover and so when

16:00 It when we ever come to talking about getting rid of distributors, they can always raise their hand and say, well, we're kind of the reason why your 16 year old isn't getting drunk all the time. And that and that's the picture they paint. And you know, maybe it's accurate, I don't know, but

16:17 they're very good at protecting themselves. It kind of sounds like the TSA because the TSA is never actually stopped a terrorist attack there a false sense of security in the day, so I don't know. I mean, so I'll give you my TSA story. The, in their defense, I was in, I was unlovable, and a guy ahead of me, had a loaded handgun and shin and as he should know, he should I mean, I think the general populace knows you can't walk in with a handgun today. This is like a 55 year old guy and he's like, oh, man, I left him in there. No, I thought it was a my check in. Yeah, I don't know what happened to him. I mean, I I looked but I never saw

17:00 reports about it, but he, but I don't know what he was going to do with that. But I know that TSA stopped that guy with a loaded handgun from getting into the low level plane. So Well, that's a first I'll give you that.

17:15 Alright, so let's go ahead and introduce our guests tonight. So tonight we are today, whoever whenever you're listening to this show, we have Mike bridges. Mike is the minority owner and general manager of Jax liquor and wine in Fremont, Nebraska. So Mike, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to be here. Absolutely. So before we kind of dive into this, you know, I kind of want to give people an understanding of you would always like to start off with one question is, how did you get into bourbon

17:42 to the modern age bourbon, I got into it. When a guy named Brett Atlas stumbled into our store, and he's, he's a, he's a he's a friend of the show. I think we're all pretty relatively familiar with him.

17:55 Before that, it was just drinking it but you don't only walked up to the counter

18:00 With about 17 different bottles of things. And so I started asking questions and, you know, we had some Elijah Craig 12 year old label both sizes, we hit, you know, 750s 175 we had some before 18 years and different things. And that conversation led to another conversation which, you know, he mentored me on things to look for and things to ask my distributor for.

18:23 Oddly enough things that they wouldn't volunteer to me, unless I, you know, started asking the questions. When I worked for the distributor, six, seven years before that.

18:33 My biggest experience with bourbon is when Maker's Mark we couldn't get 175 or leaders because they ran out of juice and they were low on supply. So that would have been 2007 2008. So it was, it was pretty interesting. But yeah, it's a it's been a world of change since basically 2015. You know, that let you say that. I don't even think Maker's Mark still makes the 1.7

19:00 Five do they favor? Do they ever come back? I can't remember they do. Absolutely they do now right that's the number one the number one skew in like you know five or six party martes no

19:15 big ballers up in there then so I guess kind of let's okay let's let's rewind the clocks a little bit, kind of talk about you know your time working in the the food and beverage industry as well because I know you had mentioned that before we started recording. You know, when I was in Phoenix for the 16 years I was there I was at the Venetian resort all 16 years, and was everything from a banquet server all the way up to director destination services when I left and move back to Nebraska where I'm from so that's kind of where it was, but those years were all spent in the wine world. So when I came back to Nebraska and got my job within Nebraska wine and spirits, I was considered quote unquote a wine expert and did a lot of

20:00 My own wine dinners for my customers and things like that. And again, other than drinking knob Creek back in the day, and learning what Maker's Mark was when we didn't have it to sell and getting yelled at by every account.

20:14 That's kind of where it was and how it went.

20:19 And then so that was at the Venetian and then kind of talk about your transition into working for the distributor side. You know, oddly enough, I just took a director of food and beverage job at the brand new Hilton in downtown Omaha, when I got a call from an old high school coach of mine who was in the distributor business, and asked if I really had any interest in moving to my back to my hometown, as he had a salesman job that he thought I'd be really good for and good at. And that's how that started. That's how that came to be. And that was back in 2006. It's always about knowing the right people. Very true. Nobody, nobody actually applies for a job anymore. It's just all inside handshakes. I think that's how it all goes.

21:00 You know, it's ironic about that I had applied at three different distributorships before that, and never gotten an interview.

21:07 This will show them exactly right. If I didn't do Fred's yard, or no Kenny, they would not be part of bourbon pursuit. So there you go, that

21:18 looks nice this year, by the way.

21:21 Let's see what happens. You know, he actually sharpen my blade on my mower. Fred, does he do that for you? Fred doesn't know. You know, I actually don't mow my yard right now.

21:35 So back to conversation here. So you were working. What was the distributor called at that time? Because I know you had mentioned it. It eventually got either bought out or purchased by a larger one. Yeah, at the time it was Nebraska wine and spirits. And then there was also united distillers which was a separate side. So Nebraska Wine and Spirits was being if you will, and united was brown Forman and then Republic national distributing company came into

22:00 State bought both companies and then you had a Falcon and Eagle division in Nebraska, and are in DC. Gotcha. So just that the Empire just keeps growing for, for Republic then correct? Yep. So let's, um, you know, I guess let's let's kind of dive into the meat of the subject here because this is, this is one of the things that people are always fascinated to know more about. And I mean, let's just kind of just go blunt and straight into it, like, how do allocations work? Like how do people get something of one thing versus something else?

22:35 You know, it's gonna sound wrong, but it's pay to play. And I don't mean illegally pay to play. It's I asked that question for year three years ago. How do I get more allocated items? How do I get barrel pics? How do I do this stuff? And basically it was support the brands that those portfolios are part of stack them high in the store, and you know, so we did it and we have an owner, a majority

23:00 owner with with endless funds and we bought and stacked and if you came into our store it would, it would kind of probably surprise you for the for the small sizes, the amount of displays we have and how big they are. I know we're talking bourbon but it's not odd. We buy 1200 cases of Windsor Canadian at a time just because it's so popular in Nebraska. I've always got 100 beam on the floor. I've got 50 to 80 Maker's Mark. And then you go to Sam's rack and everything they they do often 200 fireball, you know everybody's favorite whiskey on the floor. And that's how we got to where we are. And it really did you know last year when we got to do an O w a barrel a Blanton's in a Buffalo Trace all at the same time was kind of, if you will, our arrival and yeah, but we had to really invest in that to get to where we were. Then if you fast forward to where we are now. I've got some executives from RTC coming out tomorrow because I don't feel I'm getting what we deserve.

24:01 was certain things that are coming out.

24:04 And based on allocations, so they'll tell you that but yet, when things like old fits 13 year spring edition come out, every account gets one bottle. So whether you buy a lot or you don't I know that's a different distributor. But it gets very frustrating to display what you do and invest what you do, and then sell it and then get the same one bottle allocation everybody else does or the other 60 people in the state and nobody wants to believe that they come into your store and you tell them, Hey, we got one bottle and it went to our best customer. They will not leave you they'll sit there and argue with you.

24:41 Is there any like transparency that happens between a rep and the business? Because when I when I think about this, you know, I come from a tech background and there's a lot of stuff out there about like open data collection like the government does it and you have access to be able to see exactly like what's happening here.

25:00 There, but is everything sort of like, Hey, my name is Jim, I'm your account, whatever you want, you have to go through me. And you say, Jim, I bought, you know, XYZ cases last year, I want to be able to get a, b and c. And he's like, that's just not in my calculator. Like, is there something that like, there's their level of transparency there? Or is it just completely like, all blocked off because of one person? You know, it's a little of both. You really, it's constant, constant constant, you know, badgering of that salesperson who then has to get ahold of his boss, who then has to get ahold of his boss. Just recently, As matter of fact, last week, whistlepig became available in the state of Nebraska. Well, we've known it's been coming for about, I don't know, six weeks. So I texted my salesperson to say, Hey, I hear whistle pigs in stock. When will it show up? He's like, No, it's not. And so I screenshot at an event in Lincoln or in Omaha, Nebraska that was doing a launch party for whistlepig

26:00 Yeah no idea and neither did his boss and so that's why nobody's get nobody sharing emails is no that's why they're coming out to me with me tomorrow you know because then I throw a fit to say listen I'm not saying that I should get all this allocated whistlepig or I should be the first shot at it I just want to be communicated to because we have customers that walk through that door or text or message me all day long about hey, I see whistle pigs here I'm going to stop out and get some oh sorry we don't have any and then they again some will understand and others flat out call you a liar that oh yeah you did who who got it Brett who got it George who got it you know and they'll sit there and try to pick off names about who gets what and why they got it.

26:45 So I think up front like say like so this is how many Is it like you said the walkers whiskey. I don't even know what she said blended whiskey, and this is how many This is what it's going to take to get on those how allocation was

27:00 Or did they even give you a number to shoot for? Or like, here's the plan, you know, to get to those?

27:06 Or is it just like, spend as much as you can? And we'll get over that later. We'll figure it out. Yeah. That you know what, you just nailed it. It's like, you know, by everything we have to sell, yeah. In the month each month, we're going to have deals and not listen. I'm not bashing the wholesaler, so to speak, you know, I consider him like, my wife can live with her can live without her. I mean,

27:30 we need them as much as they need us. And that's the frustrating part. But so yeah, it's, you know,

27:39 to start, you know, or one of the little story was two years ago, after all the beats that came out and Pappy allocations came out. They came in into November, wanting to know if I would do a buy on 1792 small batch. And I said, well, what's the deal and that was something like buy 20 cases get a free and I don't think they thought I was going to say yes, I said, Well, yeah, that's

28:00 a no brainer.

28:01 Yeah, they had their bosses with them. And all of a sudden he's like, yeah, you know, getting the computer, I think we can get him another three GTS is, you know, for doing this. And so I looked at him and I just said, that's what irritates me. You got extra bottles because I bought this now Come on What will you know, what is the deal here? Why wouldn't that have been distributed according to who buys and who deserves it? A month ago when it got distributed? Why do you have bottles sitting back? You know, they'll tell you Oh, we had people that didn't pick up or, you know, named me one retailer that gets allocated three bottles or something like that, that doesn't pick it up. We're going to do it every time. So you know, it's a little bit frustrating. But yeah, that's to answer your question. There's no general number other than, hey, just buy and we'll make sure you get taken care of so we're getting taken care of is you know, there's never enough to go around. You know, if I get last year, probably mix and match.

29:00 13 to 14 bottles of Pappy Van Winkle between the 10 year all the way up to the 23 year. Well, those are gone before they even hit the store. Because we sell them to the to our best customers.

29:11 We don't play favorites, but I've had people come in the store and just yell at me as to why I don't have the lottery for those. Well, I understand that but at the same time, then how do I explain to one of my regular customers that spends $1,000 a month? Oh, yeah, you're not going to get any because we're going to we're going to raffle these off. So people that don't shop here get them.

29:33 So let's go back to your distribution days for a minute. Okay, what was your What was your last year as a distributor? 2013 14 Okay, so you wouldn't you have you experienced a little bit of the boom you experience some of the rise of the craft, the craft brands. This is something I get told by a lot of craft distillers. Now craft is that you know

29:59 People can, can say it's good, it's not good. But the fact is, is they get distribution in a lot of these markets.

30:08 And then the bottles just sit in their warehouse. The distributors do nothing to try and promote the brands or get them in a store or To my knowledge, even put them in a catalog to say, Hey, this is why we have an inventory. They're just sitting in a warehouse and hoping that and those those distillers are hoping that someone finds out about them.

30:32 What what gets a distributor to get off their ass and try and move product for a supplier? The distiller you know, Fred, I think there's there's two ways about that. Oftentimes,

30:48 I read all your guys's publications and listen and so forth. I learned things from you guys, months before our distributor has a clue. So I will like do a screenshot and say hey here

31:00 A particular product that please look out for me put it on my list. I really want this. And all the way up to the top that respond. Never heard of it. Well, yeah, it's coming. You know, the most recent one was well, or full proof.

31:13 You know, an Elmer t hundred anniversary or the 100 proof that's coming. There's things like that that they don't know about. So to answer your question, a lot of those craft distilleries and craft products, it has to be something that we as retailers have heard about, that we asked about, and then they will, they'll research or so to speak and then oh, yeah, I do carry that by the way. Unless somebody is really putting the pressure on them to get it out into the market. It has to you have to ask about it. Those salesmen have too many other brands and too many other pods if you will, that they have to hit to get it out the marketplace and you're right even as a salesman. I'm going to be honest with you. If it was the end of fiscal whether that was June or December for a certain brand, I was going

32:00 After things that I was going to make a bonus on, I was going after, you know, our biggest suppliers on the on the liquor and the wine side to make sure I hit those numbers because that's what ensured I kept my job. So, so let's stay Let's stay on the distributor side. Yes. One question about that because I heard some lingo and there wasn't familiar with what's a pod? Yeah, what's a pod? A pod is a placement. So if Yellowstone which is in Nebraska and I happen to be a big fan of hits the market, they might have certain amount of pods they have to hit and a pod means they have 15 accounts they need to do a placement of which is basically a three bottle placement. If they get a three bottle placement at our store, that particular sales, we got his pod for that brand. The problem is they come into the store with 22 different brands that need placements or pods, and then it becomes a real estate issue within a store.

32:54 Gotcha. Now we're now we're starting to talk your language. All right. So when we so let's take a look

33:00 Look at like,

33:03 like how the distributors spend money with with on premise and off premise. As you know, it's illegal for them to say, Hey, here's some cash carry this correct, but they do spend money in stores, what? How are they able to how are they able to slip under the law to give retailers and bars, money to carry products? You know, I don't think a lot of that goes on in Nebraska anymore. I'm not going to say that it doesn't because I think there probably are some exceptions and some things that just don't add up. But it was something that wouldn't add up. Give me an example. You don't have to name any names. No, it's a certain store getting four bottles of let's say, Buffalo Trace William Lou Weller

34:00 The antique collection and I look across the street going huh? They do about a 10th of the business we do. And all of a sudden they got these bottles and the same time those bottles showed up Look at this huge Southern Comfort display that showed up well Southern Comfort Zone by my sash rack. So they need to go in there and figure out a way to get that Southern Comfort in there. To me to Southern Comfort number What a way to entice them is with some bottles, or I know it's tapping with with cash or, or goods dealer loaders as they call them.

34:35 That from golf bags all the way to whatever that used to run rampant when I was a salesman I saw that all the time. But to that question, Fred, the

34:47 the how the mom and pop distributors going away and corporate america if you will, the southerners the r&d sees Johnson brothers, that corporate cultures kind of put it into a lot

35:00 That stuff. Again. I'm pretty sure it goes on. I've heard stories and I see things but yeah, that that's kind of how that works.

35:09 Well, you know, you go to certain resort destinations and Dr. Usha will own the entire bar. You know, they'll own entire liquor stores. You go to Vegas and beemo have an entire hotel. You know, so it's like these things are not just happening because the the the bar owners and the hotel owners happen to be big fans of those particular products. I mean, something's happening somewhere. Yeah, there's somewhere Oh, there there absolutely is, you know, it could come down to to free goods or any of that stuff. You know, the conversation as the retailers I had because we are one of the bigger ones in Nebraska from a volume standpoint.

35:56 You know, if you ever thought about trying to give us money or bias

36:00 You know what, take whatever money you were going to give us and knock the bottle costs down so we can make money.

36:06 It's never come to that and we never do that. But yeah, I guarantee you, there's some of that stuff going on. Now my son, my oldest son happens to be at on premise salesman in Omaha. And yeah, there's times where brown Forman or or beam or people will go into a certain bar or a ballpark or college world series, a certain bar down there. I remember Cruz and Ron took over probably the most popular bar in Omaha. I'm assuming they give them all these umbrellas and all this other good stuff. And yeah, they'll do that. So. But if if there's money under the table or things like that, I'm not I can't 100% say that it happens. I'm sure it does. So your son's in the business. That means Thanksgiving and Christmas must be kind of heated sometimes. Yeah, the dumb little kid. Thanks craft beers where it's

36:58 from all of our barrel pics.

36:59 crying out loud. He's the you know, he's, we he's been to Kentucky with us three times. We're going back again in July. And, you know, every time he shows up for the holidays, he wants to bring some pretty beer.

37:13 So there is a there's a good question that came in in the chat here from Mike bliss. And it's kind of talking about the difference in high volume retailers, you know, you're talking to the total wines and liquor barn to the world versus some value, add specialty retailers that are sort of your your mom and pop your corner shops and stuff like that. Where did the where does the line draw in what distributors do in in what they're able to allocate? Or how do they decide, oh, well, this this store does insane amounts of business. You know, we don't even have to sit there and have an argument with them. We're just going to go and sell a bunch of stuff. You know, sure. They've got it. They've got to take care or make happy multiple entities. You know, you've got on premise you've got off premise so yeah, sure bars

38:00 Need a certain allocation as well, you hope that they expose that to more drinkers based off of you know, 20 something pours out of a bottle that's going to go out to a bar customer whereas we're selling it by the bottle

38:14 it's a

38:16 it's my argument with the wholesalers. It's my argument it's my fight to say how does a little bar out in western Nebraska in a town of 300 people get just as many bottles of blood off pack five as I do, I don't understand that. Especially again, even with that portfolio, I support Rebel Yell and all those brands as well.

38:39 And it gets tiring for me because I have to then throw a fit and have a conversation with people as to what's going on. I don't want those people to not get products I understand that they need to build a business. But building a businesses in this this industry bourbon, if you will. You got to spend money as well. It's no different than any

39:00 else did you invest money in to build your business? So I guess I kind of want you to talk about that a bit more. Because you know, you were talking about, you know, how does this bar in the middle of nowhere with 300 people get the same allocation of something. But honestly, like, how does that happen? Like, is there? I mean, you were on that side at one point like is, is the internal

39:22 workings in here to say, all right, well, let's say all four of us work for a distributor, we all cover different patches, we all get 25% of the allotment, and we go decide how 25% we're going to go and do it in our particular market. Like is that is that a typical thing? Like, how does it happen internally, Kenny, don't say that

39:42 happens. That's the other frustrating part. They'll get these allocated items that come into the warehouse, and they'll say, okay, Division Two, you get five bottles, Division Three, and I'll go down the line and then they'll let these guys decide where they go. Well, you can then get up you can say, Well, I have a really good friend that owns

40:00 liquor store, I'm going to make sure he gets a bottle. He doesn't even buy anything from that portfolio. But he does carry Barton vodka as well. And so they'll get those certain things where my fight with them has always been, hey, somebody at the top of your company needs to start looking at these Bourbons it is what makes this this liquor industry tick right now and make sure that you're taking care of people that that one work hard to get it in the right people's hands, you don't want to get it into flipper hands and things like that. And yeah, I take a lot of criticism at our store. Because I asked for ideas when people come in to buy stuff I want to know who they are, I want to get to know them and I want to make sure I'm not going to find it on the secondary market. And you know, as I did yesterday, oddly enough with one of our knob Creek barrel pics that just came in,

40:52 you know, in the in the state of Nebraska, if you will, it's and I know I'm getting a little off off par here off topic, but it's

41:00 illegal to buy or sell alcohol if you don't have a license, or you can't buy it from somebody without a license. So that flipping market or secondary market is is very much against the law in Nebraska. But you know, I want to make sure the people that are buying bourbon and so forth, it's getting into the people's hands that want to enjoy it, share it and develop it. So that's my other fight with the wholesalers to say because there are stores in Omaha that we can all walk into right now and you can pay $199 for a bottle of Elmer t that sitting on the shelf you can pay 199 for a bottle of Blanton's, you can pay 3000 for Pappy and, and I don't understand how those people get an allocation when that's how they put it on their shelves. And the distributors have now said they agree and that they will not get future allocations because of that. We see it all the time here in the local. There's plenty of stores that Yeah, the right now you can go you can find a bottle of one as well or 107 it will have a

42:00 $99 price tag on it. There's a few stores in the city that do it. However, it's not stopping them from getting allocation continual. So I mean, do you mean when you were on that side? I mean, I don't think gouging or price markups were that big I think in 2014 timeframe, but I mean, are you starting to really think that distributors are taking this serious? I think they are. I think they're starting to figure it out. Again, this is all new to them too. This is brand new territory for them, you know, they have to understand that retailers like myself and others. What's most important to us right now is those allocated items and those Bourbons and that diversity and that's that variety and selection.

42:43 You know, when will it came to Nebraska, all I'm gonna say six months ago.

42:48 Maybe it was a little longer than that. But you had to buy everything they owned before you could get a couple bottles of their family estate stuff. And sure enough, we did we bought all the pot still the nose mill the roads.

43:00 yield Bardstown, pure Kentucky, all that stuff. And I've still got it all over our store, still have yet to see any family estate stuff come in. And the Johnson brothers distributor will say, well, we got to take care of, you know, some of our other customers. Well, this is where I will point the finger. Well, those other customers are the ones that buy hundred cases of barefoot wine. And we all know who those customers are. So I don't do that. And I won't buy barefoot wine at 100 cases at a time. So I can sell it at $1 higher than the grocery store. But that's where you're going to find the family estate stuff in Nebraska.

43:35 So let's take a look at the suppliers to distillers.

43:41 You keep bringing up these portfolios. And you're talking about, you know, largely Sazerac. You've mentioned a couple others you just mentioned, will it you know, at what,

43:54 how much blame are you putting on the distillers here in this equation? And are you really thinking

44:00 That they might just be using the distributors as kind of like a front man for the bad guy.

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45:19 how much blame are you putting on the distillers here in this equation? And are you really thinking that they might just be using the distributors as kind of like a front man for the bad guy?

45:30 Um, you know, I don't think so. I honestly, you know, having been out there doing barrel pics now, for the last two and a half years I've kind of learned that. You know, the Steelers are pretty hands off. You know this. The distilleries, they've got the people that their suppliers that go to market.

45:47 I think some of the distilleries would be pretty amused and amazed at what actually goes on in the marketplace. I don't think they have the time. It's like a you know,

45:58 a time or that time to under

46:00 And all that goes on with that. They're probably like, if you're taking 25%, you better earn it. I don't care how you earn it.

46:08 You know, listen, those suppliers put those financial goals to those wholesalers to say, this is what needs to happen. And so then I think the wholesalers do whatever it takes to do it, because they don't always know what they're dealing with and what products they have in their portfolio.

46:24 So does it would a distributor like tele brand, say like Buffalo Trace, for example, because we keep using them because they're so popular, but

46:34 would they tell them or advise them that, hey, you need to raise prices because we need to kind of slow down this demand or what a distillery does that that who decides pricing? I guess, I think that comes from either to, you know, on that particular case that either comes from Buffalo Trace or SAS rack. And I can speak to that that's most definitely the distilleries they dictate SRP which dictates the wholesale price

47:00 Mt.

47:01 Mike if I'm wrong with this, correct me, but the the wholesaler price is usually half of what the SRP is, and then they mark it up, you know, 15 20% to the retailer and then you guys mark it up whatever is left in the margin about right. I would say that's pretty close. from what I gather, I don't think there's as much margin on that first leg that you mentioned from the to the wholesaler what the wholesaler buys it at, so to speak.

47:34 You know, so that they are that's a little tricky, if you will.

47:40 Again, and maybe it's because I'm biased from a retailer standpoint about how much we mark stuff up. But you know, I just saw somebody got a barrel of Blanton's here in Nebraska, ours isn't going to be here for another six weeks and I saw what they posted their bottle price and I'm just like, holy crap, did plans go up again? Or am I just stupid selling it for 55

48:00 dollars a bottle still, you know, also, but our customers, you know, that's what we want to do so, but yeah, to your to your point. I think that's really strong at the distillery and that's why I've always respected Sazerac and Buffalo Trace. They're pretty adamant about trying to catch those people that are abusing that retail markup in their retail stores. Right now, you're not just saying that so you get a better allocation of Pappy

48:31 damn right. I am.

48:34 Son and he's just got a sweet talk his son? Yeah.

48:38 I guess the devil's advocate to like pay to play what do you what would you say to like, you know, the mom and pop stores have been in business forever. And they can't compete on the pay to play just because they're in a smaller town or in a smaller market, but they still have customers they want to take care of and get, you know, some allocation and they've been getting them for years. And they were kind of you know, there before the

49:00 Before everything kind of happened, well, that that's just my counter argument to this. No, I agree. You know, because I've often thought and role played Hey, what if I went out on my complete own and opened up my own little mom and pop store? You know, I know at that point what I've done with the store we have now will Linda No. allocations are what I deserve to this new place. It's just one bottle at a time. That's what we did at our store. And I think that's what any mom and pop has the ability to do. You know, pick and choose your battles if you can't pick and choose every supplier that's out there. Go after if it says rack and Buffalo Trace will then really support those brands. And then yeah, you're going to get bottles at that point. You know, I think the other misconception is, there's more bottles that come into each market than we realize when you realize how many stores are going those bottles are going out too. So there's there's product available to then develop a customer base and develop

50:00 A relationship with some key customers. So I got a kind of a doozy of a question here. You mentioned a little bit a while ago talking about there might be like this favorite scheme that somebody that works a distributor, they have a certain store that they'll go and hook somebody up because they carry a well, whatever it is, and they can potentially slide into their store. How much do you think of allocated items go to things like I don't know, if you consider this something like insider trading, where say all of us here we get 25% of a pie. I know that I really want the new Booker's, whatever it's going to come out this year, but we'll just whatever it's going to be. And what I'm gonna do is I'm going to go to a store that I like, I'm going to say, Hey, I'm going to get you this bottle but this bottles mine.

50:50 You mean the the salesman or their manager coming in saying, hey, you're going to get this ball allocated to you, but you're going to sell it to me? Exactly.

51:00 happens all the time. See, that's the that's the crazy thing. It's like, people always talk about access and trying to make a free access to everything. And when you talk about even the I've seen it before with my own eyes, it happened with a with a victors bottle. I think it was a 20 or 25 year bourbon. And I know the store that ran through, and it was just kind of like, Oh, it was a favorite from distributor. And they just ran it to the store for somebody to go there and pick it up. Sir. They just had it laying around just for that. I mean it it kind of blows my mind that that there's this sort of like insider game that you can do, because you have access to all this stuff. And yeah, what how how fair is it that

51:47 you know, bourbon has, you know, a, you know, in order to get your allocation of a bourbon. How in the world is it fair to be

52:00 expected to carry a vodka or a low level gin? Or an unattractive tequila? It seems to me like that. That's, that's the most egregious thing of all happening right now is you're being forced to carry shit, you know, to get the good stuff.

52:19 Fred when you walk into our store, and you take your first step in and right to your left, you've got about 90 cases of vodka all into the price of 999 for a half gallon, or a 175. From Fleischmanns departments and school and platinum in summit, well Smirnoff a little higher Pinnacle, you name it, and that's why they're there. And yes, we sell a lot of it, don't get me wrong, but those are brands are there for a reason because there's other brands we could choose pop off and others, but hey, those are all part of a lot of those who are part of the soundtrack portfolio

52:58 to you

53:00 you're you're you're front loading your store, because you feel like it gives you a better chance for that allocation. Absolutely.

53:09 I agree it's horseshit.

53:11 To say that what if what if we all just kind of work together because this could be the way to end vodka if you think about it.

53:19 The only reason why stores are carrying vodka then let's just Yeah, the wagons and you know find a way to put bourbon there and when your vodka revolt

53:30 the biker rebellion, Fred

53:33 I this just

53:36 it just feels scammy to me it's always felt like

53:43 you know, very 1930s you know a mafioso kind of like we were saying, but how else are they supposed to dictate who gets what what is a better system? Better? I mean, if you think about it, why not just a free market system like okay,

54:00 This is what I want. Like, if people aren't buying x y&z like you shouldn't be has to be like forced to be able to carry those like that should. The thing is is nothing triple all the way back to the distiller where like they have to rethink their strategy or they have to rethink their go to market on a particular product because it's just sitting on the shelves. And if it's if you get to the point where it's not moving, then it comes all the way back to the producer. It's hard, it's tough, because in those categories, they're all commodities. They're, you know, they're, they're,

54:32 you know, base price like, and so they have to buy shelf space to compete to kind of get their product out there. It happens in cereal, it happens in groceries and in everything, you know, you buy shelf space to kind of get your product that it's this is how it is. That is true. When you walk into Barnes and Noble. Those books right there. Those are all purchased that space was purchased by the publisher. That's true. Yeah, and you know, and I I've heard stories, you know, with some of the chain accounts that

55:00 You know, hey, you want this in cap, it's $800 cash, you want this in cap, it's $400 cash, if you want, any of the back end caps is $200 cash. Again, that's never happened to me directly as a salesperson.

55:13 I will tell you that, you know, and these people are no longer there. When I was a salesperson. I often got asked when I would go in and pitch a deal, well, what's in it for me? And that's when I would walk away, and nothing against who I used to work for. But, you know, I had the dubious title of the lowest market share and what was the biggest grocery account in Nebraska? Every CL sales meeting, I had to hear about how I did that or had the lowest market share but I wasn't going to play that game of somebody else more company wanted to do that great Go for it. But you know, I was going to do it the right way.

55:47 But because I was new and scared, but I you know, again, I don't know the other answer to what you're saying. Fred is if you know how do you distribute it? They came to me and told me that

56:00 The liquor commission is standard rasca said those allocated items need to go to the people that support that portfolio. So will we I guess you have to define the portfolio. Does that include just the bourbon portfolio? It's as or accurate, does that include everything in it, if you will? I do know last year I'm sorry, in the end of 2017.

56:22 You had to buy eight cases of Southern Comfort to get a case of Blanton's.

56:27 Wow. And that's where I flipped out. And I said wait a second, you know, so, you know, it's it's, it's interesting, and it's odd. Again, I don't know that you can blame them again. I think this is all new to the wholesalers to this this crazy game we're in with with bourbon right now. And

56:48 you know, it's um, it's tough, but somebody at those disturbed those distillery somebody at those wholesalers needs to be burning the midnight oil and they're not doing that to figure out how

57:00 this all works and where these products are going and how they're being sold. Because the guy from SAS rack right to my face and the guy from Brown Forman that was in the store a couple weeks ago, flat out said they will not support these retailers that are gouging the public. So I'm hoping that assignment, you know, they're forcing the wholesalers hands to not necessarily just give whoever you know, is on the buddy list allocated items because then like like, we've just talked about how do you deal with these mom and pop stores that have been in business for 20 years, 30 years in Nebraska, that have stumbled onto the bourbon world as well you know, how do you not take care of them?

57:43 You know, it's that you bring up a good point to it should be noted that it is illegal. Federal code, you know, does not allow a distiller or supplier to dictate where, where their bottles go. So like

58:00 The best they can do is tell these distributors like we don't want this we don't want that they can't outright say don't go to Bob store because he's price gouging. But they can say something like, Hey, we don't want to see price gouging, you know, but there there there is some, there is some very particular laws that that the distiller must follow the distiller to the wholesaler. Yeah, yeah. So the distiller to the wholesaler like what they can say to dictate where things go. It's very, you know, if there's a paper trail there, you know, they always get caught, you see people get, you know, million dollar fines every other year from these, you know, from these larger wholesale companies, because they get entangled in into these like, messes and, and that the, the federal government does, like track wholesalers quite a bit closer, you know, then I think people realize, Oh, yeah, absolutely. They do it.

59:00 I completely agree with that. And I've heard it firsthand and actually seen it firsthand.

59:05 You know, an odd story when I right before I left to take this job at this liquor store, and then, you know, through the luck of success become an owner,

59:17 my boss at this particular wholesaler, you know, we got, you know, we started seeing things in our computer like, Oh, I didn't sell this account this many cases, what's going on here? I didn't think much of it just thought it was a computer glitch. And so we're all in a sales meeting. And we get asked to go down to this boardroom and there's a State Patrol. And it turns out that our, our boss and our division was taking things and billing them to accounts and and selling it out of his trunk. Oh, nice. Let me tell you what I that you want to talk about that, that moment where you start shaking,

59:56 you know, and then it becomes like

1:00:00 accounts that Wait a second, you know, Mr. salesman in Lincoln, Nebraska, how did you not know that this guy hasn't bought Jagermeister in five years? You know, where do you think he's been buying it from? And so it became quite interesting. And I'm thinking, you know, we're the ones that turned this guy in because we started seeing things on our computer. So yeah, I'm assuming there's plenty of ways to get in and around these rules for wholesalers. And again, Canada, you're one of the original points there is zero transparency. I can't ask the wholesaler Can you tell me how much Buffalo Trace antique came into the state? And when I can ask them how much birthday bourbon came into the state and what accounts Got it? All I know is I got one bottle. Yeah. So it is one good thing about the controlled states is that you can you know, because it's all tax related and public record. You can see exactly where all those bottles went in Pennsylvania, there's mysteriously five bottles that

1:01:00 disappear every year when they get their allocation to the county when they all go to state senators. Yeah.

1:01:08 So we've we've now established the fact that there is no map and it's just all kind of like just a crazy process. There's no process there's there's literally there's nothing I think we've established that at this point. But here's here's the funny thing that I always find. I mean, it doesn't matter you you ask any store owner in when it comes to fall release season and I'm sure that Mike you hear the same exact thing is and you're going to say it every single year to his allocations are down this year. It's I mean, literally, I've heard that same exact line for the past five years in a row how our allocations always down every single year. You know, I don't know that. I'm going to tell you I was very happy with my Pappy allocation this year, this past year in 2018. What was extremely upset about my Buffalo Trace antique collection, so I don't know if they decided to, to cut me on one and give me more. The other thing

1:02:00 That would keep me quiet and keep me happy if you will.

1:02:04 But yeah, I can tell you I got one bottle of birthday bourbon this year I've always gotten to and not that that's a lot, especially when I hear and see other markets and what they get.

1:02:14 And so I flat out asked the the brown Forman guy two weeks ago when he was in the store, you know, hey, I'd be glad to do a jack daniels barrel. Again, I'd be happy to do a Woodford Reserve and an old forester barrel at the store because I know we can sell him. Is that going to get me any more birthday bourbon, he flat out looked at me said no, because the state of Nebraska is only getting so much. You know, you know, then at that point, we have to make a decision, but at least he was honest. And he was he seemed to be pretty clear about you know, he doesn't really like I think Fred said he doesn't control where those bottles go once they come into the state of Nebraska, as far as what account gets them. Yep, absolutely. So to kind of wrap this up, you know, and this has been a fantastic conversation and you know, Mike, I really love the passion that you have here. You can tell that you

1:03:00 You've got a lot of a lot to talk about in this but you know, since you've gone from, I don't know one dark side to the other maybe you're seeing the light I don't know which which is the better end here. But now that you're on the other end how's your view changed to be now dealing with the people that you once worth of a salesperson

1:03:21 you know, somebody sent me a I don't know what you call them a GIF or whatever those things are

1:03:27 a Forrest Gump running You know, when in a movie when he takes off down the lane and it's out on the road and takes off. And I literally said, that's me at the end of the month when I see the sales people come in.

1:03:39 They all got some deal, that's the best that's ever been and, you know, and and but again, my perception is I've learned how to control it and learn how to understand it. And you know, with all this innovation from all these different flavors, you know,

1:03:55 that there's only so much real estate in a store and even the big stores, you know,

1:04:00 There's only so much they can put down and carry on their shelves before they run out of room. And so something has to give. So I just kind of look at basically what's the value for that particular product that comes in into one of Fred's points earlier, I kind of look for those craft distilleries. I'm just looking for a variety of whiskey that I think tastes good. I don't want to sell something to you or anybody else that you're going to take home and whether you pay $30 or $100, and be like, Oh my gosh, I've had Buffalo Trace. And this is horrible compared to that.

1:04:35 It's a shame that you have to do your own research as a store owner, because these craft distilleries are paying these distributors to push their brands for them. And that you know, they're not you as a store owner going out of your way to get those people involved in a chance on the dance.

1:04:51 And it just sucks because like, what is the point of a distributor for a brand that's, you know, a craft brand because it's just a pastor and it doesn't

1:05:00 Seemed like they're doing a service for them. And also, would you like to iterate what they're usually costing on top of of the cost? What do you mean? Well, Ryan, we mean we go we know what how many points that distributors take on top of it. You want to kind of talk about that? Yeah. And it's, you know, you're paying, you know, for us to do distribution here, we're paying 25% margin, not 25% markup, so it's 25% margin on the fob costs that we're sending to them. And then on top of that, the retailer's taking 25% margin. On top of that, we go through all this hard work to go pick the whiskies decide throne, go through all the risks, the legal stuff, all the taxes, all this stuff, and the end user is getting the most margin, and the distributors are two versus the end. So as a craft brand, you know, we're like, well, what's the point? You know, so, what is the point?

1:05:54 That's why I just right.

1:05:57 But you know what, that's the benefit of being a retailer.

1:06:00 To a degree is building brands, you know, we have an advantage over some, maybe some of the bigger stores because we can talk to our customers and we can say, Hey, I know you've never heard of old elk or Wyoming whiskey or certain brands that it may be craft that hey, you need to try this. I see you got your bottle of Buffalo Trace in your baliga rare but while you're getting most to add this on and compare and go home and do a blind tasting, and you'd be surprised and you You all know this, how quickly you can build a brand that way and make it popular. But to your point, you're right, these these wholesalers sometimes don't even know what they have in their portfolio. Correct. I Gosh, when I started asking about armony X for the store. They looked at what is that?

1:06:47 You know, it's a What's that? And these are the people selling it. So yeah, it's tough, huh? Absolutely. So I guess to kind of wrap this up, you know, Fred and Ryan did we

1:07:00 We come away with our original hypothesis.

1:07:04 Yes, it's confirmed.

1:07:07 I agree. I concur with a nod getting, I think it's just so complex. It's, you know, I think that I think he just, there's probably good people in the distribute and there's bad people. And, you know, the shame is that you can't be good in the incentivize world because whatever you incentivize people are going to respond to, and that's the problem with everything in sales. And so, yeah, it's just, it's just the way it is. I think that was my biggest takeaway from this conversation. You know, I'd always I'd always focused in previous thought or writings about, you know, where the distributor sits, and always focus kind of more on the bigger picture. But, you know, the mic really broke it down for me, you know, to the individual, having to, you know, push a briefcase

1:08:00 roster town and open it up and have some samples in there. You know, that person is trying to put food on the table. And to be honest with you, they they probably don't give two shits about our opinion on bourbon. And they certainly don't give a flying fart about what I think about vodka. And there's probably a good chance they're not reading anything we're writing or posting. So, you know, these are people who are just making a living and it a lot of this may just come down to

1:08:27 these incentive programs that you called out as well, Ryan, and that's not it's not anything that really had ever caught my attention. But if you if you grow that, you know, in one system, and then you grow that across the various states, and you see what we have here, and

1:08:47 these people are just trying to make livings, these companies are trying to keep these portfolios and we don't have a better way of ensuring that the consumer wins in this scenario.

1:09:01 Well, we'll see what the legalized mafia or mob here has in store for the next few years. Because, I mean, I look at it and we always say that disruption is a good thing in any industry. And hopefully, it might come to be that one day and, you know, for Amazon is your disrupter, this industry. Jeff Bezos has spent so much money in researching

1:09:25 this industry. And he's got, he's got feelers out everywhere. And I gotta tell you, he's going to be the person who can and will crack distribution, no bourbon via drone. We'll see one of these days. It's gonna be interesting. You're right, Fred, I really agree that I don't think we've begun to see the impact of what all this is going to have on one retailers and that's all the way from mom and pops all the way up to the cost goes in the world. Amazon really disrupt things and they're still going to be up

1:10:00 place for people that just want to walk out their front door and go grab a bottle of basil Hayden and head home. But the other part of it is, yeah, that's you got to be ahead of the curve. And that's why I like you guys. I read everything you guys talk about

1:10:17 the curve, but there is something about with going to a liquor store and talking to the owner and having that experience of getting the bottle and holding your hand and taking it home. You know, there is there's that but it's also nice the convenience of I just show up one day and there's my bottle. Let's crack it open. So right. Yeah, it's, it'd be nice to have both, you know, for that, uh, yeah. be interesting to see what happens. Mike, I got one last question for you because you brought it up. And I've know I've heard other retailers talk about it. What are your thoughts on Costco?

1:10:49 You know, I've had my,

1:10:52 my run ins.

1:10:55 You know, they're the wholesalers at the mercy of a big big, big company and

1:11:00 Costco says they want something they're going to get it.

1:11:03 And the biggest thing was when none of us could get eh Taylor barrel proof Costco had cases upon cases of it sitting on their shelf in the wholesalers flat out said, we screwed up, we put it in open inventory and a real clever salesman went out build it to his to Costco. I find that very hard to believe but, you know, hats off to the salesman, but, you know, but again, I had to sit there and fight for them to run up to the State of South Dakota and get two cases and get it back to me.

1:11:36 So, I've got a similar story to that.

1:11:40 Back when they were doing Van Winkle barrel pics which it's been a while Wow, the last the last like Van Winkle barrel pick the distributor accidentally put into the into the Costco system and so like some random Costco store, got

1:11:59 cases

1:12:00 out of some guys, Van Winkle barrel pick,

1:12:04 like, what do we do with this?

1:12:07 You can't sell this. But $1 above margin and will come out of

1:12:14 it happens. Absolutely. So Mike, I want to say thank you again for joining tonight, as I'd mentioned, it's good to see the passion that you have behind this. And and not only that is having the experience and knowledge that you're able to share with with our listener base, because I find it very intriguing to kind of know exactly what happens. I'm glad that a lot of our thoughts were confirmed that there is no there is no magic spreadsheet. There's no formulas that figure this out. It's just

1:12:42 a few people and some emails that get passed around. And that's that's how the magic happens. So I want to say thank you again for for coming on the show tonight. And also give me an opportunity to give a last shout out where people can go to your store and check it out and get in contact with you. Absolutely no, that's that's fine. I appreciate it. Hey, listen.

1:13:00 We work hard to bring these barrel pics. And if you guys see our barrel pics when we go out we've got Brett Atlas, Jason Goldberg, we've got a team of people that go with us. And that's why it's, it's, it's to make sure if you get a bottle of a barrel pick that it's a good bottle, we want you to taste good bourbon, we read what Fred writes alive. And when people come in and in 100 McKenna right now we can't get our hands on a bottle, we want to steer him in something that hopefully Fred and others will be proud of. And I don't mean that personally. But the people that write, hey, we want to make sure they get something with a similar mash bill with a similar quality. And you know, that's what we're about. So that's, again, my passion is in that and I will fight the wholesalers. And I do and I've gone to distilleries directly to to get answers. All they do is then yell at the wholesaler make them come see me but again, sometimes you have to do that. And it's Mike, I wish you on the store next to me and you would fight for me, you know

1:14:00 No, it's true. It seems like like people like you owners like you make me feel good about like that there's still going to be a place for brick and mortar, you know that, that people you're fighting for your customers and it's not just a commodity to you, you know, it's a passion and, and something that you're, you know, you're really fighting for your customers. So I definitely appreciate that. Hey, last little tip, you know what we do at our store, I put highly allocated items every once in a while right in the middle of the Canadian section right in the middle of

1:14:29 on the bottom shelf, you know how long they will sit there and nobody will see them? Right on the stack of incentivize bottles, right?

1:14:36 It's kind of funny, and I don't mean that but those people that come in the door that Hey, how are you? Can we help you know, they automatically have determined they know more than you and they will look around and I've got whiskey and four different locations as far as American Bourbons go just because of space. And then right down there on the bottom shelf next to Barton Canadian, you'll find some Weller products at times and

1:15:00 By golly, unless I walk somebody over there, nobody's ever found them yet.

1:15:05 There you go. Again, what's the address?

1:15:09 Fremont, Nebraska. There we go. So make sure you check out Mike over at Jack's liquor and wine in Fremont, Nebraska. You know, like I said, this is fantastic. Thank you again for coming on the show tonight. And go ahead and check out his store. But also at the same time, make sure you're following Fred on those social media channels, the curation desk on YouTube, follow bourbon pursuit as well. And then, you know, one of the things that we have talked about is one of the ways that we help bring a little bit extra to our community is we let Patreon folks be able to watch these live as they happen and actually ask questions. So thank you to our community. And if you want to learn more about it, go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. So with that, fellas, thank you again for joining us and we'll see everybody next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Weller Full Proof

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 10:30:26 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UoETm-cQq8] On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Weller Full Proof. This non-age stated bourbon is 114 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

235 - Bourbon Chemistry with Dr. Tom Collins

Thu, 09 Jan 2020 10:30:42 GMT

Are you ready to geek out? Like super bourbon geek out? Dr. Tom Collins has dedicated part of his career to the details of different spirits and wine. His studies looking at the chemical composition of bourbon as well as the chemical influence from barrels is what intrigued us. We examine, at a scientific level, what char levels create different compounds and reactions, how entry proof affects these compounds, and how bourbon and rye are different in their molecular makeup. Like I said, get ready to geek out!

Show Partners:

Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

New EU Tariffs: https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2020-01-04/trump-wine-tariffs and https://qz.com/1779258/a-us-wine-tariff-on-the-eu-isnt-great-for-california/
Scotland ankle monitoring: https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5128975/scottish-criminals-alcohol-ankle-tags/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about turning your hobby into a career.
What is viticulture and enology?
How did you choose this profession?
Tell us about your research.
What compounds are you looking for from toasted barrels?
Are there times where a toasted barrel provides a certain flavor profile in the lab, but not in the real world?
Is it hard to get consistency from the barrel?
What was the outcome of your research?
How do you get a buttery taste out of a barrel?
Can you tell different whiskies apart chemically?
What are the different compounds in rye vs. bourbon?
Do bourbons have more differentiation compounds than ryes?
How does each compound contribute to the bourbon?
What kind of budget did you get to buy the bottles for research?
Where do the fruity notes come from in bourbon?
What are your thoughts on barrel entry proof?
Do you think you could look at dusty bourbons from the 60's or 70's and see differences compared today?
What's a big takeaway from your research?
What happens when a whiskey is aged in a wine cask?

0:00 Yeah, I'm excited about today you sent me like beforehand, here's some info, so we don't look stupid. And then I started reading I'm like, well if I'm gonna look stupid

0:20 What's up everybody it is Episode 235 of bourbon pursuit. And this week we are back in action, yet again talking about bourbon. But before we do that we do have some news to cover. Now, we already know that the trade war, it's going pretty strong and bourbon has been hit, and there's no telling if that is ever going to end. But now, there's a new target insight as part of a retaliation effort and we're looking at wine as sort of say more specifically European wine and other kind of European whiskeys. So there's currently a looming trade tariffs up to 100% that would affect all European Union countries, selling wine and other spirits to the United States. Now wine in general is imported as a $20 billion a year industry here in the States. And this follows already an existing round of 25% tariffs that have been levied back in October against Spain, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. American wine drinkers would be faced with fewer wines coming to America from the EU, especially those made by small independent producers. And you can expect higher prices on those bottles that do make it in for those that make a livelihood in the wine trade. The mood is less than stellar importers, distributors, wine shop owners, Somalis and grocery store wine buyers said they fear that would have to impose salary or staffing cuts as a result of dramatically reduced profit margins. Now you might think that this would be good for domestic wine producers like those in California that make up 95% of the US wine market. However, the wine Institute has spoken out against the terrorists, arguing that the EU could just as easily turn around and target us winds in a tit for tat trade war, as much as California vendors want to serve up their wine for domestic consumers. Europe is still their most important export market, bringing in around 460 $9 million in 2018. And you can find the links to these two articles from the la times in QC calm with the link in our show notes. The Tennessee ABC has issued a cease and desist orders from out of state businesses who have been doing direct to consumer shipments of alcohol. Now we talked about shipping alcohol all the time on the podcast, and this one is kind of rolling things back in a negative way. As a quote, wine is the only alcoholic beverage that can be legally shipped direct to consumers in Tennessee, and it requires a winery direct shippers license issued by the Commission, and this is coming from the Tennessee ABC director Russell Thomas. The Tennessee ABC recently discovered the illegal shipments after analyzing common carrier reports compiled by the Tennessee Department of Revenue. It requires common carriers to file alcohol delivery ports. To the Department of Revenue each month, and it also requires that any business that sells and ships wine director Tennessee has to be licensed as well. In other news, the Scottish Government is trying to tackle booze related criminals, and they have given the green light to remote alcohol monitoring in sobriety tags after awarding a multimillion pound security firm contract. The anti booze angle tags can detect if you've consumed alcohol by monitoring the sweat every 30 minutes from your pores. But ministers are still in talks about handling Scottish courts the power to force these criminals whose convictions are linked to alcohol to actually where these tax if this goes ahead, then they can be forced to go alcohol free for a month to tackle the drinking problem which contributed to their crimes. You can find the link to the Scottish son within our show notes. Alright, so you ready to geek out and I mean, like super bourbon geek out. I heard about our guests today Tom Collins, after I learned he gave In Depth talk at tails. It intrigued me to know more about the science behind bourbon. Tom has dedicated part of his career to the details of alcohol in for us, it's looking at the chemical composition of bourbon, as well as the chemical influence from the barrels as well. We examine at a scientific level, what certain char levels create how entry proof affects it in how bourbon and rye are different from their molecular makeup. Like I said, Get ready to geek out. But now let's go ahead and take a break. We're gonna hear from Joe over barrell bourbon, and then you've got Fred minich with above the jar.

4:37 It's joe from barrell bourbon. I know I talked a lot about blending here, but we also have a national single barrel program, ask you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel.

4:50 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char this week's idea comes from Kyle man on Twitter or at bourbon numbers on January 2, He wrote me and said, Does making a career out of your hobby ever diminish the fun or actually deepen the experience? Do you have a hobby you would not go pro for that reason? Thanks. That's a great question calm, and I actually do have quite a bit of experience with this. See, I initially started my career as a sports writer. Well, professionally I did. So my career starts as like an ag journalist where I was covering crops and cattle futures and things like that. But I always wanted to be a sports writer, because I was a huge sports junkie. I get into sports, you know, in high school, I start writing about, you know, local football games, track baseball. I would also write about anything that anybody would let me write about to be honest with you. But I get to college and I start writing about sports. And I take a job with the daily Oklahoman, I'm on the sports desk there. And I'm writing the headlines for the daily Oklahoman and I start interviewing athletes and coaches and there was one thing that was Pretty common, it did not matter, the level or the sport. Coaches did not treat reporters with the same respect that they did. colleagues or their players or parents even in the players kind of follow the leadership of their coaches. And for the most part, reporters get treated like crap in the sports business. And you don't have to look any further than a Bill Parcells or Bill Belichick. Press conference to see what I'm talking about. They often come with a very much a disdain toward reporters, and I was coming at it from a fan's perspective. And I didn't necessarily like the way that sports the kind of Avenue I would have to go down in order to continue a career in sports. Because as I was covering them, I felt my I felt the fan being ripped away from me. I didn't enjoy that. I want to be honest with you. enjoyed being a fan far more than I did covering sports. Now fast forward to my bourbon career, I start writing about bourbon in 2006 and 2007 and get really serious about it between 2010 and 2012. And I kind of started in a period in which people weren't really writing about bourbon on a professional level. You did have some bloggers and you had a couple magazine writers, but there was not a lot of us. And to this day, there aren't that many professional whiskey writers. But back then there were there were not the proliferation of blogs, social media wasn't around. And distillers were just happy to get attention from anybody really, in the consumer base was, we're all about, you know, people who would crack open this kind of mythical bourbon egg and shine the light upon some of the secrecy and those that was kind of what I was doing. And so I found myself in a where both of the consumer base and the distiller base were very excited to see any kind of writing I was doing. And while that has certainly change my passion for bourbon has not the one thing that has changed in bourbon and it's nothing like it wasn't sports, you you tend to have a lot of people who enter this space and want to make a career out of it or they want to cash in on bourbon while it's big. And those people tend to go away because they don't have the passion for American whiskey like many of us do, and they just see American whiskey as as another check. And I think right now we're seeing a lot of those kinds of people come and go. And those who have the passion, those who want to see this, you know, through the end and enjoy it for the rest of our lifetime. You're going to see us around for a long Long time, even when whiskies not popular anymore, and that's this week's above the char Hey, if you're interested in getting a career in American whiskey, there's all kinds of avenues open for it. You can even find some places to go to school to learn more about it. I think Kenny's got a few ideas

9:19 he'd like to share with you.

9:21 And that's this week's above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram, if you ever want to connect. Until next week, cheers.

9:32 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Ryan here tonight we are well during the day. I don't know me I'd be driving right now but we're recording this at night and in this is going to be something that like, I'm gonna I'm going to really, really enjoy because especially anybody out there that has had any background in science or chemistry. We're about to geek out here.

9:58 Yes, yeah. I think the light Last time we really kicked out was when we were talking Easton, like with Pat heist and then from wilderness trail we kind of went well I did anyways like, went down this rabbit hole of like, all these crazy sports talk and all this stuff that's way over a lot of people's head but yeah, I'm excited about today you sent me like beforehand, here's some info, so we don't look stupid. And then I started reading I'm like, Well, if I'm going to look stupid

10:27 we're talking about the very beginning our guests today sent over some some abstracts or some some scientific papers that he had helped publish and stuff like that. And, and one of them I'll just kind of read the title was called profiling a non volatiles and whiskey using ultra high pressure liquid chromatography quadruple the time of flight mass spectrometry. That was the title and like, like

10:49 Mind blown here, right. I started reading through it and have a horticulture degree with terman. Like, I remember having to take organic chemistry and like barely passed it. And this reminded me of a lot of it. So this is brand new, like bad memories of like failing at life in school. And so Tom will be easy on us.

11:11 Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and introduce our guest today. So today on the show, we have Dr. Thomas Collins. He is the or is an assistant professor at Washington State University in the Viticulture and Enology program at Washington State. So Tom Welcome to the show.

11:30 Oh, well. Hi, thanks for Thanks for the invite. I'm I'm looking forward to this conversation. This should be fun.

11:35 Absolutely. Did I did I did I stumble on your the program that you're in there?

11:40 Or did I go I think I got it right. Then I did Viticulture and

11:42 Enology. Alright cool. I didn't put her to bed. So for for people that want to know more about even what that is explained even what Viticulture and Enology is to our our listeners out there.

11:54 So Vedic Vedic culture is the science of grape growing virus. Is the species for grapes. So viticulture is just the study of grape growing. And then analogy is the study of winemaking. So my background is I'm a chemist and I do work in aroma and flavor chemistry of grapes, wines and distilled spirits. Nice.

12:18 Yes. So how did you choose that path? I mean, that would mean if I had a chemistry degree, that any film to choose I would probably it, but how would How did you get involved with that?

12:30 Well, I think you're on the right track there. If you're going to do this sort of thing. It's important to study something you're going to enjoy studying, right? So there's lots of areas of science you can go into, and some of them I wonder how people get involved. But I think studying grapes and Wine and Spirits seems like an area that would be enjoyable. You're going to have samples to work with and samples to all kinds of sensory evaluation. Right? Yeah, absolutely offer research. All in the name of science.

13:03 I'm surprised you don't have a plaque behind you that says that or something like that. Just a banner that says just just for science here.

13:09 Yeah, well, the the license plate holder on my car says Life is too short to make bad wine. So pretty nice.

13:19 So I guess kind of talk about, because I know you do a lot of stuff with wine now, but I know that you know, we had originally reached out to you because I saw it. You had done a presentation at Tales of the cocktails A few years ago, and was really I said, like, there's got to be somebody out there that really knows like the chemistry behind bourbon. And so you had you had kind of been doing that. So kind of talk about your research over the years and kind of what you've been focused on in that category.

13:47 So I guess the way the how I ended up here was I worked for a big winery wine company in California, and I work with them while I was doing my PhD at University of California Davis. And, and the focus of my research at that time was on oak aroma and flavor chemistry because the winery I worked for the cooperage. So they had a company that was making barrels for them. And the focus was really trying to understand how the coopering or barrel making process affects the outcome of the barrel, what what the chemistry of the barrel looks like. And then ultimately, the chemistry of the wine that's aged in those barrels. And so that was my PhD project was really just trying to understand how what happens in the cooperage affects what happens to the barrel and then what happens to the wind start in it. The next step is to look at are the next one of the next steps in my research development was alright, so that's what happens when you put wine in a barrel and it's 15% alcohol. What happens if you then look at a different beverage a different product, what happens is we put whiskey in that barrel instead, now we're talking instead of 15% alcohol, we're at 60 65%. Alcohol, you're going to extract different things, the barrels are made in a different way. So it just was sort of a logical, logical extension to the research I had already done. And also gets me into the working in distilled spirits, you know, an area that I enjoy personally. And here's an opportunity to learn a little bit more about how things are different with spirits compared to wine.

15:32 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is cool. And so I guess let's, let's kind of go into that topic a little bit. Right. I mean, I think the first one that you kind of mentioned was, was the oak and the wood and stuff like that kind of kind of talk about some of your research that you did in regards of really what the because I think there was one. One paper you had also written called targeted volatile composition of awkward samples taken during toasting, edit. mercial cooperage. So kind of kind of let's talk about, really, what, what the goal, or the thesis of this was, and then the results and really where you came out of this?

16:13 Well, from a, from a practical standpoint, the question we were trying to answer with the initial research, when I still work with the winery was, the company owns this cooperage. So it gives us an opportunity as a company to have barrels made exactly the way we would like them to be made rather than buying barrels that someone else has made and decided how they wanted to do the toasting. This was an opportunity for winemakers to talk directly to the Cooper's and say, This is what I'm looking for in a barrel and have the Cooper's make them for that. It sounds like a great prospect. But it turns out, it's hard. You need a translator between what winemakers say they're looking for, and what Cooper's can actually do. So if the winemaker says I want a certain kind of tannin or I want a certain aroma, flavor profile. There's that there has to be some translation for the Cooper to understand what they're looking for and how winemakers speak sort of translates into something that they can do in the cooperage to achieve that goal. And so that's where this the genesis for this research project was really just trying to understand. If winemakers are looking for a certain thing, what are the Cooper's have to do to achieve that? And that morphed into really just trying to understand how does the whole process of toasting barrels work? And what are the key factors in terms of where the wood originates from, how it seasoned, how you're going to toast it to get to a certain aroma and flavor profiles that the winemakers might look for. And so that's where you get these studies where we're looking at volatile profiles changing during the testing process because we're trying to understand what components are being generated as you heat the barrel as you toasted, and how they changed throughout throughout the toasting process. So, so it turns out many of the things that we associated with toasted out in terms of the aromas of vanilla and clove and the spicy aroma is sort of the things that we're looking for from our barrels. Most of those are produced during the testing process. They're not present in the untoasted what

18:32 what are some of the things that you're that you're looking for?

18:35 So the actual compounds so yeah, yeah, getting it on us. Yeah. What about on that road? Well, the first one is vanderlin which is not surprising the one that smells like vanilla. But we're also looking at things like huge and all an ISO huge and all which have clove type aromas. Huge and also the primary compound in in clothes. We're looking at firfer awls, which comes degradation of sugars during the toasting process. So, the cellulose and Hemi cellulose that compose the structure of the wood in part, when those when that's heated, you get thermal breakdown that results in the formation of firfer all kinds of compounds that give you these toasty aromas. And other structural polymer in wood is lignin. And when you when you break that down by heating it, you get things like we get vanel in for one you get quiet call and for methyl glycol, which are related, which are the whiskey lacked are related to the whiskey lactones through the kinds of aromas that give you spicy or medicinal characters, depending on their concentrations in which ones you get. So there are a number. I mean, we looked at about a dozen different compounds and looked at how they're produced throughout the toasting process. So we put thermal couples into the staves as the bear before barrels were toasted. So we could measure the temperature of the wood throughout the process. And then we took samples at regular intervals during the process, and took that back to the lab for the analysis. And so while the barrels are being tested, we're monitoring the temperature, we're collecting samples, the wood, and then we can do the analysis to figure out how things changed throughout the testing process. These compounds aren't all produced at the same time at the same rate. So some of them are, some of them take more heat to generate, and so they tend to develop later in the testing process. Some things are produced very quickly. But if you have too much heat, then they get degraded, broken down into other compounds, or they just volatilize and disappear. And so depending on what the winemakers looking for, you might want to toast the barrel for a longer period of longer period of time or a shorter period of time. You might do a high temperature short time toasting to emphasize things that are produced quickly. We might do a slower low heat, toasting protocol to produce things that take more heat to generate. And so by doing this kind of study, we could start to understand how to tailor the toasting process at the cooperage to get the specific aroma compounds that the winemakers were looking for.

21:19 Interesting. Yeah. So with the, how do you control I guess the variables, you know, because you have wood, which is a living thing, I'm just thinking of like turf research and like, you kind of have like a lot of uncontrollable variables because you are dealing with a living thing or was living in so how is Are there times that like, you know, you have like, like you said, we're toasting the exactly the same with the exact same type of wood and it doesn't translate like it did in the lab, you know, out in the real world.

21:48 Right? Well, and you really kind of hit the nail on the head, nail on the head in terms of the problem with the toasting process generally is there's not a lot of control. In terms of how that happens, so the Cooper's all have a protocol, they're supposed to use this many fires. And you're supposed to be on each fire for this amount of time. But one of the things we saw in this process is that there's a lot of variability just in how the how the individual Cooper's manage their fires. And so at this particular cooperage, there were two different Cooper's that did the toasting, and they didn't manage their fires quite the same. And their barrels were different, even though they're following the same protocol, the same number of fires for the same amount of time. Getting the intensity, that fire to be consistent is one of the things that you have to do well to get a consistent outcome. And that's that that's fairly difficult to do, and some are who's really on top of that can do a better job. But if the two if the two Cooper's are not doing it quite the same, then you end up with barrels that look different. We could tell from the chemical analysis which Cooper made which barrels

23:00 really saying it just it just like with whiskey, you know, it's like you do single barrel pics and you have sister barrels on the same exact row like honey barrels that just tastes like significantly different than one that's like right next to it. You're I wonder if those variables in the toasting even though they're theoretically at the same char whatever, you know protocol that like you said there's so many different variables that it right hard to like

23:26 pin that down. Yes, that's exactly right and we and we saw the same thing in you see the same thing in winemaking. If you taste wine from 20 different barrels that are all made, same day, same cooperage, same wood, same forest, you have all those variables controlled, you still see variability in the outcome, and it's because to a great extent it's because of this variation in the testing process that it's really hard to get that well controlled and and most Cooper urges don't necessarily have a lot of instrumentation that says this is what the temperature is it would at this point there, it's not. It's not easy to put that kind of instrumentation in place. And most of them don't have it. And they're relying on the experience of the Cooper to come up with something that's consistent. But I was it, it is a really difficult job to get that level of consistency day in and day out. I mean, we looked for one of the things we looked at is, over a four day period, how consistent were the barrels from one day to the next to the next to the next. And there there were definitely good days and bad days in terms of efficiency.

24:38 I'm kind of looking at some of the data here and you have you have some graphs that basically show the the the type of oak, the the type of toast, and then you have, like the level of vanderlin in regards of like what degree Celsius was the I'm assuming it was either the temperature or was the word at that time. So you can kind of really, you can't actually calculate what's at what temperature you're trying to pull out the most of that particular compound.

25:08 Right? So so we look, again, we looked at about a dozen different compounds. And we measure the temperature throughout the process. And, and so we could start to say, when we get to this kind of temperature, we're going to see formation of these compounds. And as it progresses, certain compounds like glycol, for example, the longer you heat it, the hotter it gets, the more glycol you get. But things like valin, there's some there and the untoasted would, it gets produced fairly early in the process, but as you continue to heat the barrel, it drops off, it's being converted into something else, or it's just escaping. And so the goal of that was really to try and understand what temperature protocols you want to follow if you want to emphasize valen for example, rather than quiet costs, so if you want something that has more of those values, characters, how would you achieve that. Whereas if you want something that's toasty smoky and has a lot of quiet call, you just keep toasting it, the harder you go that the more of it you get. So it's the it those those particular plots are really critical to trying to work with the Cooper's to understand what they needed to do to make specific profiles.

26:23 So what is the what's the outcome here? I kind of of what you were trying to get or what was like the, the general data like what did it really say to you?

26:32 Well, so I guess the the main, the most important takeaway message from that whole study was, there's a lot of variability in this process. And until Cooper's really focus on getting consistent testing protocol protocols, getting that part of the process down all the discussion that we have in the wine industry about the upcoming from French for us, whether it's white, green, oak, or Tiger Green oak or comes from this forest versus that forest, all of that stuff really doesn't matter if the Cooper doesn't have a way to toast the barrels consistently. So what we saw was the variability in the toasting process, sort of trumped everything else. Because until you could get that more consistent, you couldn't see differences between tight grain and open grain, you couldn't see differences between this forest and that, it was really more about how the barrels were toasted. So that was the first thing was the cooperage really needed to focus more on getting the Cooper's to be consistent in toasting. The second thing was, if you can do that, then you have the possibility of making barrels that have specific flavor profiles by by adjusting how you do the toasting, to focus on baneling or to focus on glad calls. Those these things all have distinct curves for when they're produced and when they're degraded. And so you can start to adjust how you make the barrels to Focus on one flavor profile over another. So that was an important key. And then the other thing that came out of the overall process was as wine company, we knew a whole lot more about how to assess barrels, how to make decisions about the composition of barrels, and how that might interact with the wine that we were trying to make. And so we could give the winemakers a lot of information about barrel selection that I think allowed them to do some more interesting things with their barrels than they would have been otherwise. It's it's always good to have good information about the tools that you're using. And this this study did a good job of helping the winemakers better understand the contribution of oak in their in their wine profiles.

28:50 There's Cooper juice out there that not all of them toast their barrels right. So I guess this this is also showing that Yeah, there is scientific research and study here. That You can figure out that you can pour, pull more those types of compounds that you want by toasting it as well.

29:07 Yep. And I think just to jump ahead a little bit, I think there may be some information from this toasting study that could be beneficial for distilleries that are starting to move are interested in moving into these barrels that are toasted and then charred. Because you're you're going to use charred barrels generally speaking for bourbon but there there is a move at least in part towards doing some toasting the barrel first before you before you chart and and I think the potential benefit there is you below the Charlie or you're going to have the opportunity to affect the composition of that, that toasted layer underneath the char. So you may be able to get slightly different profiles from this than you would with just a straight charred barrel.

29:58 There you go. Hello. Once you do To have a buttery taste out of the barrel, so like a sharp knife, for instance, you know real buttery or like, we've had a couple single barrel pics where we taste like, you know, it tastes like real buttery or oily. What chemical compound is that coming from?

30:15 Well, when we talk about Chardonnay and the butter and Chardonnay that often comes from the mouth, lactic fermentation so it's actually a microbial a lactic acid bacteria metabolite diaas. a teal is one of the compounds that is most associated with that character in Chardonnay. And certain barrels may enhance that for a couple of reasons. One is some barrels may produce better conditions for the bacteria to do their thing back in we do see a fair amount of oak sugars that are released during the testing process and so it may make it more conducive for some of these organisms to to thrive. Those compounds in whiskey may be something that comes from the fermentation of the of the mash, and gets carried over during the distillation. So you could have similar organisms producing diabesity and related compounds during the fermentation. So, I'm not sure if it's barrel related but that would be in wine. It's usually a lactic acid bacteria from mal lactic fermentation that's making those kinds of characters

31:32 All right, Ryan, you got that written down?

31:38 So so let's let's talk about you know, bourbon and whiskey in itself kind of kind of break us down here and really school is like, where Where's what's like a chemical composition or a makeup of really what this looks like and, and kind of help me point me to one of these articles you've written to that that can help be also better understand it.

32:00 Well, so the transition to looking at at spirits came from just wanting to continue to work with oak and try to understand how composition affects not just wine but let's look at other products as well. And so we started we started looking into just what's what's in different kinds of spirits. And so we looked at not just bourbon but other whiskies as well. So in one of the profiling in the profiling work, we looked at how do Bourbons and scotches and Irish whiskeys and other whiskeys compared to one another. And, and some of the differences there have to do with with new oak versus oak that's already barrels that have already been used to age bourbon or other products. And and and then one of the other Questions that sort of came along that started the work that I've been doing with with Jake lon at Virginia Tech has been just this question of what's the difference between bourbon and rye whiskeys? And can we? Can we differentiate them? So I guess to break it down is mash bill. Can we see differences in Nashville through the oak that we're using to age the whiskies in?

33:28 Yeah, yeah, kind of start at the top right there like can you can you discern the types of whiskeys by the mash bill after it's been created from a chemical way to do it and kind of talk about the process of like, how you came to your conclusion to

33:44 so it I mean, it started with just a small a small study where we just went to the local liquor store and picked up a dozen Bourbons and it doesn't dry whiskeys and then did our analysis to see Can we see Can we tell them apart chemically? And I think the profiling paper that talks about bourbon Tennessee and rye whiskies shows that when you look at the non volatile composition, so non volatile means, things that we're not smelling. So, to show the things that make it smell the way they do or the volatile compounds, those are the things that we can actually smell with our noses. non volatile composition refers to things like some of these folk related compounds that get extracted during barrel aging, but contribute to color they contribute to mouthfeel they contribute to in some cases to aroma but not not entirely. And so we were using the the LC q two off to do the analysis of the compounds that are extracted into these whiskies and what you what we want, you can see in that profiling is before you go too crazy, what's an L CQ tough. So the LC is the HPLC. That's the liquid chromatography quadrupled time of flight mass spec. So that's the instrument that we're using to do the analysis. So the LC part separates the the individual compounds based on how they interact with the chromatography column. And then as they come out of the out of the LC, they're introduced to the mass spec. And the mass spec separates whatever is coming out at that time it it separates them by mass, so how heavy the compounds are. And because it's a quadrupole time of fight, we get really good mass resolution so we can separate things that are pretty similar to one another. And it also gives us an estimation of what the chemical formula is so that we can then really get a leg up on identifying specific compounds that are involved. And when we look at these kind of compounds extracted from Oh, there's no there's not surprising A lot of overlap because Bourbons and rise generally speaking are aged in very similar new charred Cass. And so you're going to extract a lot of the same things irrespective of what whiskey or you're putting into it. And so Bourbons and rise aged a new cast for example of very different than scotch whiskies aged in reused cast because we've extracted a lot of a lot of things in the first use, and there's not as much left to extract and subsequent uses.

36:34 Can you can you like, without because of course, we can't do it visually. But can you can you explain really how they are, you know, if you were to look at something like how does it look that they're actually different on paper.

36:49 So there's, there's a, several different ways we can do it. One of them is just to look at individual compounds and just measure the abundance or concentration of these individual compounds in the different whiskey types. And when you do that, there's a lot of variability and Bourbons and rise Generally, the concentrations don't vary that much for things like glycol for some of the oak related tannins to get extracted for any of the any of the things that we're looking at, using the LC q Tov, they generally look pretty similar. We don't see a lot of separation. We do sometimes see separation by by producer because they they're using specific cooperage is so that sort of points to maybe differences that are related to the barrels and not so much differences between the spirits.

37:46 What are some of those differences? Like, what what what are the actual compounds that you're seeing that are either higher or lower and

37:54 rye versus bourbon and stuff

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39:17 rye versus bourbon and stuff? Well, so in the, when we look at the UK related compounds, we're looking at things like glycol and Eugene all and we're looking at some of the some of the wood tannins. We're looking at. fennel properties, things like kovarik acid and Saran jaw and ceramic acid things that are oak. They're extracted from Oak, we do we we do so there were several things one is we didn't see big differences between bourbon and rye. We do see some differences between younger whiskeys and older whiskeys. In terms of the kinds of compounds that are extracted, we tend to see simpler Wood related compounds, monomers so things just like the kumbhak acid, ceramic acid for for like acid that are extracted in younger whiskies and then as you get to older whiskies you start to see more tannin you start to see dimers and bigger,

40:20 bigger sort of

40:23 not quite tannins, but somewhere between the simple monomers and the tannins you see the smaller complexes of folk related compounds so like lignans, things like syringe or resin all and Liana resin all things that are more, more complicated probably take more time to extract we also see a number of tried terpenoid compounds that are extracted into the whiskies and again, the longer the whiskey is aged, the more of these things you get extracted, and then the other class of compounds that you see Are our lippitt. So fatty acid kinds of compounds that become more oxidized as the whiskey spends more time in barrel. So they're things that sort of make sense you're going to have more oxidation the longer in the barrel and that's going to be reflected in the profile of the lipids in them in whiskey as well. So what we were seeing was more difference between younger whiskeys and older whiskeys. Not big differences between Bourbons and rise.

41:28 I'm looking at this table to and with bourbon whiskeys. It seems like there's more differentiation compounds in the bourbon whiskey than any other. Is that correct? Am I reading that?

41:38 Right? Yes, you're reading that. Right. And I, I think, in part it had to do with availability of whiskeys at the time we did this study. So we when we were doing this, you could find a broader range of ages of Bourbons and you could for rice This was during that time. At a time when right whiskeys were when it was hard to find older rye whiskeys and so most of the whiskey rye whiskey we looked at were younger whiskeys whereas the Bourbons, we had a full range. And so I think part of the reason there were more compounds in the bourbon that differentiated the bourbon rye was we just had a more diverse set of Bourbons than we did for rise in that first study.

42:24 Gotcha. I thought it was just proving that bourbon is king to everything.

42:29 We could go ahead.

42:31 Yeah, I'm okay. That's my, that's my hypothesis.

42:33 But now that they're older rye whiskey is available. Again, we could go back and repeat the study and see if we get similar outcomes.

42:41 I'm in on that. Let's do it.

42:43 Yeah, right. We'll use Kenny's bar.

42:47 Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at like, again at this table and and kind of, let's talk about some of these like, della hydroxy Benz, and all idle I can't even try

43:02 a Benz aldehyde Yeah, like like that.

43:05 Yeah. So yeah, thank you for saving me they're kind of talk about like, what each one of these are really contributing to the bourbon itself too.

43:18 Well, so I would say the first thing is we don't necessarily know what all of these compounds are doing in terms of their effects on the aroma. So that di hydroxy bends. aldehyde is likely a breakdown product from lignin and it's produced during the toasting slash bile in this case charring process from from the degradation of the lignin that's in the wood. And it's probably got I if I had to guess it's some sort of a medicinal maybe spicy kind of aroma. Nice and so I mean, it's kind of related related to things like Why call in for method wire call?

43:57 All right, what about octane ik acid

43:59 so That's one of the lipids. So actinic acid is a short chain, the eight carbon lippitt. That's probably coming from one of the younger whiskies I'm thinking, man. And then as you get, so you're going to see between eight and 1216 carbon chains are pretty typical for what we see in in these products. And then as the whiskey ages, you'll start to see things like hydroxy October casser, di, di hydroxy actinic acid, so you'll see you'll have more oxygen incorporated just as those liquids get oxidized. And that's going to affect might affect the maybe to a small extent the oiliness it's going to give you some slightly different aromas. Particularly if you start to get a lot of the oxidized liquids president you start to get into what in cognac would be called the run co character. So that sort of character of oxidized lippitt gotcha.

45:06 All right, Ryan, if you're keeping track here, I'm zero for two. I'm pronouncing these correctly,

45:10 but I'm not even trying. So

45:15 I appreciate

45:16 appreciate the effort, right? Yeah. Well, we don't really have to we don't have to do the next one because or the next two because yeah, vanilla and vanilla acid. Vanilla, right. I mean, unless there's something crazy I don't know about vanilla. You can you can school us on that.

45:30 Now that's your you're dead on there.

45:33 All right, then there is that deck cannot depend on acid.

45:38 Yeah. Economic acid. Good. That's no, that's the 10 carbon chain. So you had

45:42 I know that one. No, I'm kidding.

45:46 And then don't economic would be the 12. And then you get into into the longer chain ones. But those are those are part from the wood part from yeast metabolism.

45:58 Cool. So as you listen How about that one?

46:01 And that's a word related. That's one of the one of the compounds that's I mean it's derived from the word it's it's a lignin degradation product as well. I don't know what specific character it would have but you know it's it's going to be part of that set of follow funnels that are that are products of degradation of the wood. So we see similar things would wind as well.

46:27 All right, we got three more to go here Ryan. So we got a leg ik acid or allergic, allergic

46:34 Yeah, logic. So logic, the logic.

46:40 Logic acid is a is a breakdown product from wood tannins, so when you heat would the Alagiah tannins breakdown to illogic acid and then ultimately to Gallic acid. So, it might can contribute some bitterness when it's in before it's broken down when it's still woodturning going to give you some astringency, some some coarseness, some of that woodenness that you sometimes get in Bourbons that may have been at barrel a little too long.

47:10 Awesome. Alright, so we got hepta methoxy flavonoid.

47:16 hepta methoxy flavonoid that's why I'm not really sure what that does

47:22 I'd say stump the chump but man alive there's no way that

47:30 the common theme though I will notice with this is that you keep saying would and so I guess it just proves that 70% of the flavor comes from the wood.

47:40 Yeah, there's some significant percentage of the flavor is wood derived and flavor and a lot of the aromas are wood derived. So that I mean, so that was part of the part of what we're trying to understand is just how critical is would to the character of these products and you would guess going in that it would be And it is now in terms of the aroma. We didn't in this study look at using gas chromatography. So a way to look at the volatile compounds because I mean we you do have different characters and Ryan bourbon in the aroma. And those are not I mean that those are not going to be necessarily wood related compounds, there are going to be some volatile aroma compounds that are related to the mash bill. And that's that's something that we have have looked at in a subsequent paper where we worked with a distiller to produce whiskeys have dealt with different mash pills, different different amounts of corn and rye so that we could try and understand that part of the problem better that part of the equation. But one of the difficulties we have in this kind of work is as researchers we don't have access to what the mash bills are that any of these distillers. Producing and that's fine. So we have to make some estimation about what what they're doing but but then we worked with with a distiller to actually produce whiskies of the mash bills that we that we wanted to try.

49:15 And so on a budget did they give you to like, go buy these bottles? Like, here's how much you got spend.

49:23 The money we use for this came from bits and pieces of startup funds, different sources. Some of it came from our own pockets just because, you know, we wanted to do this work and we're interested in it and we really weren't sure where to turn to to get funding to support this kind of work.

49:42 There you go, right. Yep. Kickstarter, self kickstart. Yeah,

49:45 well, that's it. We we've kicked that idea around of doing a Kickstarter to try and get funding to do some of these projects. Just because they're, you know, it takes money to do this analysis and some of it some of it comes from various startup funds and things that we have a little more control over what we can spend the money on. So

50:09 I'm in for 10 bucks.

50:10 Yeah, man.

50:13 I'm not cheap, like any

50:16 question. One thing that sometimes you get into whiskeys like real fruity notes where those compounds that are bringing that out,

50:24 well, some of those are ethyl esters of some of these fatty acids. Typically, those are the fruity compounds that we see in wine are higher alcohols that are produced during fermentation. And then with the amount of ethanol that's around you, you get a combination of the fatty acid and the ethanol to produce an ethyl Ester. And many of the ethyl esters have these fruity aromas

50:48 yet so while we kind of move on, I've got a lot of questions that are coming in through our live chat through here. So I kind of want to get to some of these because there's there's some good ones here in the live chat. Yeah, I'll send you the link here. So. So as we, as we kind of go through here, there's, there's a really good one. And it's kind of talking about barrel entry proof. And I'm not too sure if you've done any research on that. And this one might just be your best estimate, guess of knowledge here. But can you talk about barrel entry proof in the effect it would have on the solubility of the compounds that are pulled from the barrel? Because many people claim that a lower entry proof like 107 or 110 results in a better whiskey rather than putting in at something like the max capacity at 125?

51:38 Sure. So the first the first thing is we haven't done that sort of research at all. That's something I'm interested in doing. And the whole reason we started down this path of looking at distilled spirits was just to get a wildly different entry proof from what we were doing with wine wine, we're at 15% alcohol. If you're 125, you're 62 and a half. So it's a completely different solvent system, you have so much more ethanol, it's going to affect what gets extracted from the wood. And so we definitely see if you compare wine and spirits, you will see very different things extracted, because ethanol is a really strong solvent. That's the difference between 15 and 6062 and a half. You won't see as wildly different outcomes if you're looking at 110 verses 125. So there'll be some differences. That's still a significantly higher level of ethanol, but it's not going to be as different as what we see between wine and spirits. The higher the alcohol, the higher the ethanol level, the higher the proof. The more organic compounds you'll be able to extract

52:59 you'll die Really,

53:02 you should extract more at higher proof than at lower proof. But you're going to extract different things as well. And so and it's just it's one of the things that we want to do, you're going to see a different set of extraction, you're going to see probably more of the try terpenoids, you're going to see more of the lipids extracted at higher proofs than it lower. But I don't know yet. To what extent that would have what it what impact that would have on the on the whiskey itself.

53:34 Yeah, it's it kind of reaffirms, there was a assumption in the chat that said, somebody that took a few classes over independent stave, and they at least independence Dave said they did some data and did some analysis and said that barrel entry proof of 114 produces the most flavor compounds and they had the data to back that up whereas something that can be higher, can Sometimes extract more of the undesirable compounds.

54:02 Exactly, you're definitely going to extract different things that when 25 then you wouldn't wouldn't 10 and you're going to extract a lot of a lot of it's going to be very similar but you're definitely you have the opportunity to extract some other things at higher proof that may or may not be desirable, you may get better outcomes at lower. We just, we just haven't done the work. We haven't had the opportunity we haven't had access to the whiskies to be able to do that. We are we are starting to work with a local distiller here to to go down these down these rabbit holes to see what there is to see.

54:41 We got whiskey, we can help you out you just let us know. samples.

54:44 Good to know. Good to know. Yeah,

54:46 absolutely.

54:49 In another kind of thing that came up people were kind of wondering, you know, and I think you you kind of talked about it a little bit about not really being able to discern a whole lot of difference between Ryan bourbon based on their mash bill it from a scientific level. But I mean, something that's like a weeded bourbon versus a rye bourbon. Were you able to find any discernible differences between those? Or is it at the end of it, it doesn't look any different in science?

55:19 Well, so some of it comes down to the tools we're using. So when we use the LC cute off, and we're looking at non volatile compounds, what we're really that's a that's a good tool for looking at situations where you have different kinds of barrels, because it's a really good tool for looking at what you're extracting from the barrel. And so we can really easily see differences between Bourbons rise, and scotch whiskies or Irish whiskeys, things that are aged in US barrels. That's really straightforward. Just to see differences in Nashville. We need to look at the at the profile, so we need to use gas chromatography instead. And in this most recent study, we've started to use that as a tool. And then we are able to see more differences based on mash bill. We haven't with that yet looked at Rive versus weeded Bourbons, but that's on the list of things to do. The other thing I would say is using the LC q Tov, we can see we can differentiate between whiskeys of different ages because a lot of those differences are related to what's being extracted from the barrel. We can see some differences between producers based on the barrels that they're using. And, and so it's a tool that could be used for things like is this whiskey really what it says it is, in terms of age or producer, I think with some work and with the right set of library standards We could start to use this as a tool for authentication in case in case there was some concern about a whiskey being what the label says it is. We're not there yet, but I think we, it's a tool we could use for that. The scotch regulatory agencies are are using these kinds of tools to verify authenticity of scotch whiskies, for example,

57:21 do you think that you could look at you know, whether using gas chromatography or HPLC, or anything like that, to sit there and look at and I don't know if you're this deep into the bourbon world, with dusties are basically Bourbons that were from the 60s 70s and stuff like that, versus what's produced today. I mean, do you have any hypothesis on on kind of what that would look like?

57:47 Well, lot Oxygen.

57:50 Oxygen would certainly be one of one of the key things to be concerned about it but assuming that the the package was well sealed and you're not getting a lot of it. oxygen into the folder whiskey. It could be a toll to go back and look at route, for example, the question of entry proof. Because you go back to a certain time when 10 was more common than, then we're where we're at now. So there may be possibilities to look at that. It's also, you know, to look at differences, differences in production practices as well. Some of that would be gas chromatography. Some of it would be liquid chromatography. You know, it's something we are interested in doing. getting access to those kinds of samples is, is not always easy. But we've had some discussions about doing that kind of that kind of work

58:45 need with jack rose, and just go through their whiskey collection.

58:53 Yeah, I'm sure bill Thomas would love that. Yeah.

58:56 All for science. All the name of research. That's how science Yeah, absolutely,

59:01 you know, start to make bad bourbon too.

59:04 Yeah. There we go. Right. We're gonna sell. We're going to sell license plate holders with that on it now.

59:10 That's right.

59:12 So, yeah, so we're kind of we're kind of creeping up to the top of the hour here. And I kind of want to, like finishes on on a strong note, you know, is there is there one thing that you took away from a lot of this research that the average Joe can can make a like a better informed or buying decision or anything like that? Or like, What's it? What's a big takeaway from from everything that you've been doing here?

59:36 Well, I mean, I think we touched on a little while ago that it's, it's a pretty, pretty large percentage of the aroma and flavor in distilled spirits comes from the cast that it started with bourbon, we definitely see some differences between producers we definitely see differences in the age of the whiskey and You know, there's some some really, I mean, it's, as you say, the more you know, the better, the better you're going to be. And it's interesting just to see how these things play out as you look at younger versus older whiskies, and a fair amount of this work has been done during the period of time when the industry was sort of scrambling to have enough. Older, older Bourbons, older rise for the marketplace, there was a lot of demand. And so it's, you know, some of this, it's, you can see some of that challenge and the results that we're looking at in terms of being able to maintain the age of the products that are they're putting on the marketplace.

1:00:41 Fantastic. And I guess I got one more question that came into the chat because it's really going to marry your two worlds here. Right. So what about when a whiskey is aged in a secondary cask like a like a wine or a port casks like envy and some other ones that are out there? Is there a type of like chemical reaction that's happening with this blend? You know, kind of give us your, your kind of take on that.

1:01:09 I mean, we definitely didn't really touch on this because it was more in this in the scotch world. But when you're looking at scotches, there's this big differentiation between scotches that have been aged in bourbon barrels versus Sherry butts. And we can we can pick those out night versus day, the ones that have aged aged and cherry casks look very different from the ones that have been aged in bourbon casks. And I would expect we'd see the same sort of thing if you started looking at other whiskeys that have been finished in Port barrels or Zinfandel barrels or peanut or barrels or whatever other kinds of things that are out there you would see the influence of that other product as well. Some of it is direct influence from the product itself. So the port or the Zinfandel but somebody It is also just differences in wood, you're going to see some differences because of toasted word versus charred wood. There. I mean, there's there there are definitely things to see. And we can also I think, see when we're looking to Sherry casks, we can see differences not just between Sherry and bourbon, but between Spanish oak Sherry casks and American oak Sherry cask. So there's there are definitely characteristics of the ones that shine through in spite of the influence of the Sherry to

1:02:31 it all comes back to the wood

1:02:33 back to the wood.

1:02:34 And we go, I think we can our conclusion or is that we need barrel statements instead of a statements like what barrel was in the char level, that long? You know, the conclusion.

1:02:50 It all comes back to the word.

1:02:52 Yep. This is fantastic. You know, Tom, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And really, like I said, schooling up I've I fumbled on more words than I have, I think in a long time trying to try to get him out here and really, you know, educating our listeners and for us. For myself, I think this was super interesting. Just to kind of see this from a data perspective. In my business, we always say that the data never lies. And so when you look at it, of really what is being influenced by to the whiskey via as we just said, all comes back to the word it's, it's super interesting. In my opinion, we see this but I also want to let you give a opportunity to plug where people can either find out more about you or researching more about you or you're looking at some of your papers. And if we're going to look after this, so hopefully, we'll get some thumbs up and green lights and and you'll be able to find some of these papers on our website when this podcast is is aired. So go ahead and give yourself a plug there too.

1:03:59 Well for Well, it's absolutely been my pleasure to do this, I appreciate the opportunity to come and talk about some of this work. And I'm glad to see there's interest in in this sort of thing because it can get pretty dry and academic at times. So

1:04:11 you feel like you're just like yelling in a cave, like,

1:04:15 good to break it down and and talk to folks who who are passionate about it and appreciate what the implications for some of this might be. So I really appreciate it. And again, if you want to learn more about what we're doing, some of it is posted at the Washington State University Department or medical terminology Program website. You can Google that and it'll pop up and you'll be able to find find me somewhere on that on that web page. So happy, happy to answer questions that people might have as

1:04:47 well. You got it. Alright, so you got questions. Start googling, and good luck.

1:04:54 Good luck.

1:04:57 But But seriously, thank you again for coming on the show. So reach out you can try to find time out there, you can always reach out to us to team at bourbon pursuit com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram to see what we're drinking, what we're talking about where we are today. And if you like the show, and you want to help it grow, we would appreciate it write a review. And if you want to be part of these, as I mentioned, you get to be here during the live chat. You can support the show on Patreon pa te r eo in comm slash bourbon pursuit. Ryan go ahead and close this out.

1:05:30 Yeah, Tom, thanks, man. That was that was enjoyable. I was trying to wrap my head around these concepts and try to talk intelligently about it. Yeah, I think you know, science you try to you try to do something so you can replicate it and you know, have something that's proven nothing time and time again with spirits and bourbon. You just can't replace that human element. And there's so many variables with you know, nature and then the human element of making a consistent product. So it's interesting And I hope there's more continued research about it because it is fascinating.

1:06:04 All right, terrific. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it immensely. And thanks for the interest and yeah, absolutely. The human element is a huge part of it. And a lot of this was really focused on what are the things that matter what are the things that the human element can focus on to get a better outcome?

1:06:20 Absolutely.

1:06:21 Perfect.

1:06:22 All right. Cheers, everybody.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Larceny Barrel Proof A120

Tue, 07 Jan 2020 10:30:34 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2TsnTgONLo&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Larceny Barrel Proof A120. This non-age stated bourbon is 123.2 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

234 - Scotch Pursuit with Dr. Rachel Barrie

Thu, 02 Jan 2020 10:30:44 GMT

New for 2020, it’s Scotch Pursuit! Ok, not really. But what better way to start the new year by trying something new and having Dr. Rachel Barrie, the master blender for The GlenDronach, BenRiach, and Glenglassaugh of Brown-Forman, come and show us the ropes. We talk about malting, peat, Glens and Bens, rules and regulations to be considered a scotch, the temperatures and more. This is a fantastic 101 to the scotch world and even made us, not so much scotch curious, but more single malt curious. Since this recording, we’ve tried numerous single malts and found some great ones. If you have an “entry Scotch” for bourbon drinkers, drop it here in the comments.

Show Partners:

At Barrell Craft Spirits, they explore whiskey in an entirely new way. The team selects and blends barrels of whiskey into something greater than the sum of its parts. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Al Young.
Why all the Glens and Bens?
Does the altitude affect the whiskey?
Talk about growing up around scotch.
Tell us about your doctorate.
Tell us about the the brands.
What is an old school malt?
How do you keep malts consistent?
What is malting?
What is the process for making scotch?
What kind of stills do you use?
What is your favorite cask?
How do you make a blend?
How old does scotch have to be legally?
Is there a lot of evaporation loss in the barrel?
What proof does BenRiach come out of the barrel?
How many barrels are in a typical batch?
Do you have a team helping you blend?
Is there a limit to the number of times you can use a barrel?
Tell us about the special releases.

0:00 All right, and I want to make sure that I'm saying these right. Ben Ben. Ben rush when we have Ben react. Oh, gosh. Ben, Ben react. Well, no, I want to be able to introduce and kind of talk about it. So Ben, we are going to hear him fumble. Glenn chronic, right and then Glenn glassing Oh no, glass, glass, I

0:23 have a glass of wine glass. Okay.

0:27 I must leave that one and

0:32 I'm gonna butcher this so bad.

0:45 Happy New Year everybody. It is Episode 234 of bourbon pursuit. And with the new year it comes time that we can all reflect back and start with a clean slate. It gives us a chance to focus on where things are exciting and where we see change happening and we looked at the world of bourbon

1:00 Saw that there's too much drama. So we explored what else this wonderful water whiskey has to offer. And we decided that we're going to start venturing off into scotch. So now you can look forward to a whole lot more scotch podcast happening in 2020. All right, that was a bad joke. We're not gonna be doing any of that. We don't have any other scotch playing episodes, except for this one you're gonna hear today. So you're in the clear. All right. Now let's get on with the news. The bourbon world loss and other great on Christmas Day at 2019. With the passing of Al young from four roses. Alice served in various roles at four roses for 52 years. In 1990. He became distillery manager and in 2007, was named four roses bourbon brand ambassador. He was also historian and published the book for roses. The return of a whiskey legend in 2010. I was inducted into the whiskey magazine Hall of Fame in 2015. And he's also a member of the Kentucky distillers Association, Kentucky bourbon Hall of Fame. After the dedication of the 50th anniversary bottle in 2017. He was boosted in the spotlight and he was regularly seen during

2:00 Private barrel selections. We captured him telling the story of four roses and part of his career. Way back on episode three in 2015. Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family, friends and the entire four roses community. We covered this in the podcast way back in July because on July 3 2019, lightning struck a warehouse at beans maturation complex on the site of the former Old Crow distillery on McCracken road. The warehouse held an estimated 40,000 barrels of whiskey and collapse resulting in a fire. The site is located in the banks of the Glens Creek, which flows into the Kentucky River, which eventually goes into the Ohio River. State Fish and Wildlife investigators later found dead fish along 62 miles of all three waterways with the most impact happening in Glens Creek in the Kentucky River beam. Suntory has agreed to pay the state of Kentucky more than $700,000 following the environmental damage from July's warehouse fire, according to Global's courier journal that Kentucky Energy and Environmental cabinet negotiated a $600,000 fine with the

3:00 Companies Jim beam's brand new unit, an additional $112,000 to reimburse the agency for its expenses from the fire. Now we've talked about the rise of shipping alcohol on the podcast plenty of times before. But now there are studies coming out, the volume of liquor sold online in the US should be more than quadrupled by 2020 for reaching an estimated value of $13.4 billion. And this is according to I Ws or who is the global benchmark for beverage alcohol and data intelligence. out there hurdles that come on this, you've got the antiquated three tier system, you get blue laws and individual states that take care of age verification. And you also have perception because half of the people that were surveyed during this thought that purchasing online was illegal, with companies like drizzly leading the charge, along with other retailers using things like instacart for Costco, people like this. They're doing same day delivery. Expect to see more that it didn't happen in 2020. Thank you to everyone who supported the bourbon pursuit Christmas charity.

4:00 raffles, we raised $13,740 for the USO pets for vets and love city. We appreciate everyone who took the time to donate to these good causes and the winners, you'll be receiving your items in the mail over the next two weeks. We've been truly impressed by our latest pursuit series offerings. Episode 18 of pursuit series was our first ever ride barrel. And it came from Finger Lakes distilling. It's a four year old but it packs fruit and spice all in one for $65 and we also released Episode 19, which is from our Tennessee stock. It's a 10 year old bourbon and it tastes like those orange push ups that we all used to love as kids. We have less than 15 bottles remaining of Episode 18 and about 80 bottles left of Episode 19 we also have less than 10 bottles remaining of Episode 12 so you better act fast. You can get the links to purchase all these by going to pursuit spirits.com this was an exciting episode for Ryan and I we don't know anything about scotch like none

5:00 Least when we started this podcast, we were curious about bourbon. And we started to learn a whole lot more before really diving into it. So what better way to get the full experience about scotch, then by having Dr. Rachel Barry, who is a master Blender for multiple lines of scotches, come on the show and show us the ropes. We talked about multi Pete regulations be considered a skoshe temperatures and a whole lot more. This is a fantastic one on one to the scotch world, and even made us not so much scotch curious, but more so. single malt curious. Since this recording, we've tried various American and foreign single malt and found some that we've really loved and enjoy. So there's a lot more out there than bourbon for most of us. Now. Sit back, Let's relax. Let's hear what Joe from barrel bourbon has to say. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

5:51 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, we explore whiskey in an entirely new way. My team at barrel craft spirits selects and blends barrels of whiskey

6:00 into something greater than the sum of their parts. Next time ask you bartender for barrell bourbon.

6:06 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. There are a few people you meet in life, where they just instantly feel like they're a brother or a family member, or someone who just cares so deeply about another human being that they would just do anything for a total stranger.

6:27 That's who al Young was. Al young, was probably the most knowledgeable person in bourbon that never wanted any credit. Al Young was this incredible brand ambassador for four roses, who had started working for the seagrams company in 1967. And had been all over the place in the distilling business. You know, to me that the pinnacle of his career was when he served as the plant manager for four roses, everybody talks about the master distiller but our was

7:00 plant manager. And when it came time to retire, they found another job for him because they didn't want to let him go. Because anybody who ever met our young just felt this Kismet kind of special relationship to him. He was, he was avuncular, caring kind, and he wanted to know about you. That's what made our young so special was that it was about bourbon and he loved four roses. But it was never about really anything other than the people. I wanted to know where you grew up. How many kids you have, what you love about whiskey, what you don't like, he wanted to talk to you and learn about you. And so when he passed away on Christmas Day, this past week,

7:50 I think

7:51 a lot of us felt that we felt this big hole that we lost a friend and yeah, we

8:00 always talked about how we lost a whiskey legend. But more than anything, Al was everybody's friend. And if you ever did a barrel pick with him if he ever shook his hand if you ever had a drink with him in a bar or, or had a sandwich in a cafe, you know what I'm talking about. Now, Young was one of a kind, and he will be missed.

8:25 And that's this week's above the char. If you want to learn more about al Young's contributions, go check out my Forbes article, visit forbes.com. And you should also check out the book he wrote about four roses. You can just find it on Amazon search for four roses. Until next week. Cheers

8:48 welcome back to this episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Ryan here on site in in another studio or at Brown formance. Yes, but today we're talking about

9:00 topic that's so green to us. Like, um, I, we got this email from Andrea who set this up. And I said, Let's take it, let's do the opportunity because we need to branch out a little bit because we've been so bourbon focused in our podcasts and our lives. We forget about this. Oh, there's this whole other world of whiskey that we're not even touching on. And then actually, if you look at it sort of Trumps even what bourbon does on the global map to Oh, yes. But by far and it's funny on the way here, I was thinking like, all right, what we're going to talk about and then like, start thinking, like, when I was when you're like in your 20s, early 20s, you like, kind of make all these rules for yourself. Like, I will never pay someone to mow my lawn or my kids won't be the ones that screaming at the restaurant. And another role for me was, because I'm from Bardstown. I will never drink scotch. But today, I'm changing that and I'm excited to learn about it and drink some scotch. I know it's going to be exciting to do that. And that's really why we have it. It's a

10:00 This is what I love about this is that we have a guest on today that is is pretty world renowned, especially for the scotches that she blends and she touches. You know, I think we might be a little jaded, we might be sitting in the bounds of royalty right now not even really recognize it. Yeah, we're peasants, Scott.

10:19 So let's go ahead introduce our guest today. So today we have Rachel Berry. Rachel is the master Blender for Ben wreck, the Glen. Glen glass and all i got i hope i got that right for single malt Scotch whiskies in the brown Forman portfolio. So Rachel, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. You did well with those Kenny Yeah, I know. He was kind of fumbled through this quite quite comical

10:42 because we want to have a glass of Glen glass and though it was that, is that how it was? I said a glass of glass. Ah, let's see. That's a very basic question. It starts off while the Glens and Ben's what like there's, you know, Glenlivet, Glynn morenci Glen, Glen glass and Glen dragon

11:00 We're with altitude Really? Okay, so Glenn doneck is very deep down a valley in the valley of brambles.

11:09 So it's a Glen. Okay, and Glenn Glasser is deep down beside the sea. Okay. So you have to again, go down and tickling glossa and then Ben reacts a little bit higher altitude we call those dollars here.

11:28 dollar Yeah, yeah. go fishing. Exactly. You can go fishing. They're absolutely good surfing there. Oh, no, there's no service

11:39 whereby the see Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. And then Ben react is slightly higher altitude. So it's a bad. Okay. Yeah. So I'm assuming the altitudes do something to the whiskey that really kind of pushed into the name is it as well? Yeah, everything makes a difference with scotch. I mean, scotch whiskey.

12:00 been around since 1494.

12:03 If not for centuries before that was our earliest recorded evidence and we've got 128 distilleries in Scotland and no to disillusion the same is the spirit with the greatest diversity of style and individuality of character in the wild.

12:19 And we're gonna be tasting three years a little bit later we'll dive into those I probably jumped ahead. itinerary or

12:26 so yeah, altitude is a part of it is a part of it. It's one part of many parts. Okay, glad we got it kind of like you know pinos, you kind of grew up you know, to our wine, you kind of grow in the more lower humid regions, then you have grapes in the higher regions, they get more sun and sky kind of gives different flavors white, right? It affects it affects the maturation effects of fermentation, where the distilleries, gotcha. Cool. And so you're based out of Scotland too. Is that correct? Absolutely. We're in Scotland. Well, I was born, five minutes from Glen donek distillery, and I was brought up the air

13:00 Then I went to Edinburgh University and the head office the brown Forman production head offices in Edinburgh, or the Scotch whisky. merry go round by so you're destined to be in scotch? Absolutely. And, you know, I've come home working for Glenn doneck and bendrick and going glass, because, say born near Glen donek. I learned to surf with my dad at Glen Glasser and learn to glide at Ben REAC. That's cool. So I guess talk about growing up around it. I mean, was it was your family having influence into it at all? Or was it just something that you just kind of naturally gravitated towards? Well, my dad was the first to share with me a weed jam when I was far too young. I shouldn't say this to be having a weed drum.

13:46 beat everybody.

13:48 And he also collects malt. So it was a big promote efficient model.

13:52 And, you know, it's more actually being involved in farming as well. You know, it's more of that side of things.

14:00 Then distilling, but yeah, it was serendipity getting into really,

14:05 because I'm a chemist by trade, and I could work for oil or, you know, pharmaceuticals and offer jobs with those. But then I just happened to be cycling past the Career Service on the last day, adult was advertised at the scotch whiskey Research Institute didn't even know such a job existed and got the job. And then I've never looked back for years and researching the alchemy of scotch and then making it so that's even a fun journey. Now the other thing we forgot to mention you're also a doctor the trade might not it might correct so last year, I got an honorary doctorate from the University of Edinburgh so I was honored to be given that feel even worse about myself now.

14:49 You're not only seeing the hands of greatness we're also a doctor.

14:53 Well, I actually studying medicine first as well. It's quite funny. Well was good medicine.

15:00 Why See? That's why I say you know we drama D keeps adult 30 yep away

15:07 How much have you been drinking already today? Not in this kit.

15:12 So let's let's talk a little bit more about you know your history. You know going because I know that you've had your hands in a lot of the Glens and bends of the region as well before you were a master Blender here at Brown Forman taking care of the brands here. So kind of talk about some of that history too. Yeah, I mean, I started off with a Glen and the far north of Scotland and to Glens. The margy Glen Murray, and then also eila with our bag and work with their blends as well creating them so that was, that was a fun journey. I was 1617 years and then move to more worked more with xyla

15:54 with the highlands clan, and also with the lowlands

16:00 was a Glasgow distillery. And then

16:04 a couple more.

16:07 I lost and another Highland. But I've left the best to last working with Baron Corbin because it's truly going home. So I've done my whiskey exploration. Yeah, you've seen them all. Yeah, whenever I see a bottle Glenmorangie I'm like, is it tastes like oranges? Or you know, like, I don't know it, it looks like an orange bottle like, I don't know, what's, what's the difference between like you talked about, I'll guess that's where Laphroaig and you know, different types of brands. What makes the region different? Like one part is one part. I mean, a lot of it is down to the conditions. So

16:46 we'll talk about space side and stuff like that to

16:49 go 50 to 60 distilleries in it. So that's where most of the distilleries are. And Ben react is right in the heart of space sites.

16:57 Halfway between the mountains See, and it's beautiful.

17:00 Beautifully balanced. And, you know, it tends to be you know, fruit laden moles are from Speyside so when rain is particularly fruit Laden, like orchard fruit.

17:12 So everything makes a difference. shape of the stills water the barley.

17:18 Yeah. And then the highlands I've actually would like with Glendora there's actually very few distilleries in the eastern Highlands there's only three. So Glendora is incredibly distinctive.

17:29 And it's a real old style old school mode, which makes it an old school because you gotta understand we're coming to this you know, we know mash but let's start the basic like, what is is God's vs. Okay, here we go. Here we go. We've only got four malt whiskey anyway. Yeah. single malt and that's the caterpillar that's growing. That's what people are really loving. And, and we've got three award winning top distilleries. three ingredients. malted barley, so has to be malt for single malt

18:00 Whiskey meter.

18:02 Like sir deserves 100% one all. Gotcha. So when you go the tour, it's like it has to be 100% Well,

18:11 they're always like 15 you 1% corn You know, that's the thing 100% malt because malted barley is the most complex material you can create flavor from in the world. There's hundreds of flavor compounds created from malted barley. And there was that versus other grains, because it's just all cast in a pool of amino acids of lipids as well as the starch that gives you the sugars. So there's just so much on the on the husk, you even get vanilla, you get searchers, there's so much to be extracted and converted by the yeast to flavor so it's much much more than just

18:51 alcohol. So in you know, in fermentation, you actually create the same flavors as you would do in a wine. So, you know, people often say Oh, how come

19:00 This great penis from mote

19:03 mall is magical. It just creates all this flavor. And that's why notice those are the same. It's a very complex material. And it's the synchronicity of, of where the seller is every single step of the process that creates quite a distinctive character as well to say how do you keep that consistent

19:20 between the distilleries because I would imagine that you know, one farmers multi bar one farmers barley that you got to bring in and malt like you had to have some sort of process that try to get a consistency. Yeah, but I mean, there's always going to be some sort of variations. Yeah, I mean, the malted barley varieties per year might be slightly different and more to do with the harvest. But generally, you know, most of Scotland will be growing the same, the same varieties because they're the ones that are working and you know, disease resistant and and grow and give you the highest yield.

19:53 But I mean, multi process can affect it. Ben Rhea, we've got all more tanks, which is something really special

20:00 one of only two distilleries of those, you know, 55 distilleries in Scotland that to have the Maltings so that's you know, something something special we don't maltol year but we do batches somebody doesn't know can you describe what multi malting is just bring that would be that somebody

20:18 is bringing the barley to life. So the barley is harvested spring barley is harvested in August and then it will be melted typically, you know, in the autumn

20:34 or it can be kept as but just the green barley as we call it before it's melted for longer and malted in the spring.

20:41 But malting means that you basically steeping water. Okay, so you're giving it some moisture, which is encouraging it to grow. Yep. And the growing phase is called germination. And that's where the mall is layout and the floor and the old style is with a, you know, to shovel it, basically

21:00 Mo shovel and turn it starts routing together it stops it from knitting together with sprites, okay and ensures an even temperature. And this allows the the enzymes to start working and the fooling the barley into thinking it's growing right because given that those conditions and so when we got the enzymes just perfect and the body is modified so this activate those enzymes, it's then we need to stop it. And that is done through mulk killing. And that's where the the germination barley is, is is raised on to Multi Floor. And beneath that there is heat and that's the kill. Okay.

21:42 Traditionally, Pete was used and most distilleries when we were back, but then you know, in the 20th century there was gas etc. So, so so most distilleries these days are undefeated.

22:00 with Ben reate, we've got both. So we're very lucky to have both. But Pete itself, is is, is found a lot in Scotland.

22:12 For Ben REAC. We source it from nearby the distillery and there was Caledonia forests 10,000 years ago and over 10,000 years, the Caledonian forest is as broken down over time over this time, and created the piece that we use. So Arpita actually, you can see fibers in it almost like fibers of wood. So is this like, like sphagnum peat moss or anything like that type or no, this is more like woodridge widger Okay, this is because it's from the northeast where you have Caledonia forest. Whereas if you went to Iowa, which is an island off the west coast, which makes the most

22:53 was the highest density of peated whiskies when it is a peat moss, a peat moss. Yeah.

23:00 No moss and also only because I use peat moss. I've agrico like turf. He's, he's

23:07 a

23:09 horticulture degree and we we use peat moss to like improve soil profiles and textures because it's rich in organic matter

23:18 all that organic matter you see this decade over 10,000 years and different parts of the geography of Scotland and you have you know different types of vegetation. And when you burn the peat, which fuels the fire that most of barley,

23:35 the aromas from from that material that vegetation and permeate the barley. So this introduces smoky flavors and you know, more nyla you find something more medicinal, more CBD decaying sweet seaweed type of smell.

23:54 Whereas, with Ben REAC it's that sweets would smoke on

24:00 Like a barbecue smell I think people in Kentucky would love it.

24:04 You know, it's really, really sweet. I guess that's based on the native vegetation there. Yeah, absolutely. But also in space side this is very, very rare, right? We Pete, every year we do about 15% of what we do. And then I get to have fun playing tunes with the beat on the competed stock and with flavor and create flavor so so it's great fun but space I typically is undefeated malts they tend to most of your glands

24:34 So Ben Ben reacts really very bold and adventurous and having Is there anything like heat shortage or is that ever word like people here talking about you know, uses evoke or whatever they're like, oh, Ukrainian oak shores they ever complained about they're all using all our Pete. We thought plenty.

24:55 There's plenty of pee. Gotcha. doesn't actually take that much Pete to create smoke. Gotcha.

25:00 etc. So it's all relative, isn't it? probably use more in your horticulture. Yeah, farmers and weekend gardeners. Let's see, I was kind of curious about like, what was the shift of moving away from Pete? Was it just in efficiencies of scale? Or was it a change in flavor that people were looking for? Like, what was that? Because you said most distilleries are kind of shifting away from that.

25:22 Well, this know historically,

25:25 it was more to do with the fact that we could get natural gas to to

25:33 drive barley and which is more efficient.

25:36 And also, you know that for the environment overall. So yeah.

25:45 We got, we got we got barley, they were melting it and then we're killing it. Yeah, dry it out to stop the germination process. All right, where we at steps the next step? Oh, we get the multi barley in

26:00 millat we have to put in a mill. And there's two different types of mill and distilleries. porcius or Bobby mill, and they've got four different rollers. And when it goes through the mill, this cracks open the husk, which is the surface of the barley. And then it goes down to the next level of rollers. And it gives you three different particle sizes, which are the husk on the outside of the barley, the grist in the middle and the flower, and you have to get perfect combination to give you the best taste and to get the most extraction. How do you get the perfect combination? Well, you just know what's right for you guys. And then you can use a sieve and use a sieve and you you work out your different particle sizes percentages, got a really simple process to for the guys to the distillery

26:45 analogous to like the corn that we take in, you know, basically turn into a powdered form. We're sitting there getting ready to do our mash. I guess the

26:55 flower package is not good because it would clog up the mash tun

27:00 Okay, okay give it will give you lots of alcohol and also it's not as good from flavor.

27:06 husk is great because it gives us a filter bed and mash tun and we want to produce a clear war target. So when we drain it off, and you know it filters through, and then the rest is the majority of 70% in the middle size particle skips great flavor and alcohol. Awesome. Alright, so we're moving past the mills where we're going next we're going into the mash tun and there's different sort of mash tons and scotch. I Glenn jornet. We've got copper mash tun

27:37 which goes right back decent job six, it's incredible. Lots of content with copper. It's a traditional recompile very slow process takes six hours to mash. Ben react also takes a long time to to mash very slow, where some more efficient, bigger distilleries might take three hours. But we believe slow and steady wins the race. That's right. The the tortoise always wins when I read this

28:01 Yeah, you know, Peter Pan, do you know the tortoise scene? Yeah, well, you get complexity in whiskey if you take your time. That's right. So with bedrick, for example, we we add one water at around 6065 degrees,

28:23 we mash this and then we drain it off through the filter bed. And then we add another water, a higher temperature around 74. And we drain off and they both go into the fermentation process. And then we add two more waters, which just clean it all out and go back into the first with the first water from the next run. And so we saw remash water, so it kind of

28:51 so we, we basically are great economists in Scotland. We don't let any job goes to waste. Yeah. And so with

29:00 mentation Are you all hanging your head on like this is our own yeast we've had for since 1400 or whatever, you know, we've got great distillers yeast that the whole industry uses which are perfect for scotch, she'll be black distillers uses profit for scotch. But when we ferment as well, you know, this is where the magic comes in, you know, we know we've got

29:23 wash backs that you know, air does the natural Flora can get into so it can influence the fermentation as well.

29:33 Tanks kind of sort of thing. Gotcha. Well, it's a Glen Donna, we have Scottish large wash backs. And sorry, I thought it's large. It's a wood. Oh, okay. I'll never would see he knew exactly was not miss anything. Yeah, like I got nothing here. So

29:52 my computer

29:54 was like, you know, you think about some disorders we go to and they've got the Cypress tanks. You know, that's my guys, man. That but yeah, this is

30:00 Uh,

30:01 yeah, so yeah, so squad is large and therefore, you know, it can you know pick it can breathe. You can never get it fully cleaned. But that's great because it gets more of the micro flora. Yeah. Your

30:15 character character.

30:18 Character Yes. funks a good boss. Robust, robust Highland character. Yes. That's how royalty says yeah.

30:29 Alright, so we're through fermentation. We're, I'm saying distilling copper stills, right pot stills. Oh, copper ports tell ya, I noticed again, notice no column stills ever never call themselves from all over. And while they're saying it's because it's pretty efficient and what we see around here that's kind of what a lot of the lot of the stories hang their hats on are doing a lot of bourbon and a lot of runs at once is basically using a really massive column stills. We have one of the most inefficient process

31:01 Incredible complex to flavor. It's all about the flavor and the end of the day. And with single malt in particular.

31:10 There's lots going on. So you want to take one cut this special for your distillery in the second distillation. So there's two distillations, typically in scotch. first one's called the wharf style tends to be the bigger style. And the second one is the spirit. So

31:30 in the first still, you distill the beer from around 8% alcohol up to around 20 24%. That's called low winds. And then you take the low winds, which is 24 and two, the second still the spirit still, and we, we cut the middle point, so whether it's the ceiling over

31:52 with bendrick, for example, 13 minutes, we just recycle. So we cut it, it goes into one

32:00 chamber. And then the middle heart goes into another chamber and that is for Philippians cask. And then the tales go back into that first chamber and then they're all recycled. So it's a very slow process, but it means that we capture very specific flavors. And then the still design is has an influence as well. So a Ben reate we've got very pure shapes so they just look quite beautiful pairs. And the this captures almost a fully peer job. Apple characters like an apple or church and the sales were that Glen Drona. We have

32:40 almost like saxophone stills.

32:43 Very unusual design. Certainly in terms of the neck, it curls around, up and down just like a swans neck. And this is very, very unusual.

32:53 So we have a boil ball that gives you lots of reflex and then the swans neck so we get this unique character.

33:00 How many different kinds of stills Have you seen over your course of time? You know, with all the time so I mean there's there's not kind of like a

33:09 I guess a good recipe that everybody kind of follows along like around here everybody goes oh, let's just call them down and we'll call today Yeah, well yeah, write a check and then in Dumbo Scotland all the stuff for sites Yeah. Oh coppersmith and the replace the stels member scotch whiskey is been gone for a long time Glendon It was 1826 You know, when I got those cells, so they'll replace them. Exactly. You know, every every little batch every you know, everything just the right, same, exactly same dimensions, but each distillery Yeah, so they're the man they're the coppersmith. Gotcha. Yeah. So quite often, you see stills just driving along the road.

33:49 being replaced. Yeah, that's awesome. Though. The corporate does where I mean corporates makes great conductor. It's wonderful for flavor because it catalog

34:00 is more fruit takes it the harshal elements. It's, it's magical. Absolutely. And so from there you've got your hearts and you're swimming you're filling barrels. Now you're filling barrels lately. Is it typical still 53 gallon sometime x bourbon cask like we're talking about the book is interesting because if you go back to 1826 for example, back then, it was Sherry principally that was important into into Scotland and bottles. And then the cast's were just use the surplus before then it was Aquavit, I Water of Life clear spirits. And you know, that farmers made because they had surplus barley. Who wouldn't? Yeah,

34:46 a little bit different around here. Normally, you would call that moonshine? Yeah.

34:51 Yeah, so it was serendipity, as many things and then the scotch industry that these Sherry cast and the main but the results are

35:00 podcast klarich cast what at that point? And we're used to, to host the whiskey which

35:08 you can ask me that. I love with no. I mean, I've spent so much time analyzing oak from around the world. I just love them all. I cannot say that. That's a cop out. Yeah. I love the one. I'm creating the whiskey with that day better. So today Yeah, yeah. Today president with that cast, I'm fully present with each cast. Gotcha. Absolutely. Alright, so what was the last cast you used? What was the last before? Well, I came to Louisville a few days ago. And the last cast I knows from was

35:44 definitely Glenn Dornoch, Patrick Hammond f cask. The last one px px Sherry right. And yeah, so that was the last one I'm learning the beauty of scotch and parvis

35:57 authenticity as well.

36:00 That we have this incredible selection we have to use a walk. Walk is the best. Yeah. You know, other words just do not cut the mustard. They don't have the complexity.

36:11 But apart from that it can have been you know, virginal we can use just like in Barban and or use casts So, for example with Ben redic we have the most eclectic collection of casks in space eight if not in the whole of Scotland. And we're has 13 we've got everything from the virgin not to bourbon to rum, to red wine, Bordeaux, New Yorker to Moscow masala to Tawny port report to a Miss Miss Miss Spano.

36:50 Madeira, so turn Okay, yeah. So you have all these different cask and I guess we'll get into to your your black magic of blending

37:01 Well let's talk about blink. So like here, like the master distillers like you know the celebrity or the you know the person that everyone looks to like but I hear over there the master blender is kind of like the runaway hit and away nosing lots of casks I know is about 5000 samples per year from casks

37:23 because it's such a complex spirit and no two castles in there very can be very different.

37:31 So I've noticed about hundred and 50,000 casks well my lifetime so far,

37:37 and counting and counting. But, you know, is the key part of,

37:44 of, of delivering a perfectly balanced single malt is knowing, obviously, what would you use what your wood policy is because we can reuse them more than once and then the different recipes of such

38:00 are almost in the cast selection. So the percentage you might use a bourbon cask virginal although very few us first you know we've got a real we're onto a winner here with Brian for men because we have source of virgin oak it's absolutely amazing it's great to play with and tons of us to work and tons of great dad Daniels barrels good for desirable for so take your pick so yeah so it's up to the master blender to kind of work out in conjunction obviously in collaboration with various people in the business so our influence in various various people in the business to see I think this will really work and consumer love it and you so like we're doing it. Are you like all right I went 30 bourbon expert and blends and when 35 x Madeira blends and or Derek has finished and then to blend to make you know a brand or like or no formula. Well it's it's really up to

39:00 whiskey. And to be honest, it's the whiskey that tells me

39:04 because she can keep me in Kim, it tells you it tells you the story tells you what it wants to be, you have to listen. And see you're not the guidance counselor.

39:16 Like Jackie says, when you know when she gets barrels off, she can like taste them and be like, all right, you're going off to be the old forester. You're going to be the prohibition series. You're going like here and there, but yeah, actually, you actually let the whiskey Tell you what, what to do with it. Absolutely. You know, like,

39:36 the characters whiskey Jasmine, what to do with it. I mean, with Ben react, it's got perfect balance of fruit Mononoke you know, and that is the key for me is to create character individuality.

39:50 Make it shine, just bring it all out, you know.

39:54 So, with Ben week 10 for example, general this is an appropriate time so yeah.

40:00 Yeah So Ben Murray lunch

40:08 with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that has been finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rackhouse whiskey club rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series and a two

41:00 Hundred milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rackhouse whiskey club.com. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box.

41:19 So, with Ben week 10 for example, general this is an appropriate time. So yeah.

41:25 Yeah, so Ben Murray.

41:30 So this is the core whiskey from Ben REAC. It's unpainted, or just make sure we're going which way Left to Right Left, left, right, left Bell know if you're not.

41:40 Yeah, well, the last time we did this, were wells with with Jackie and I went right to left and I was like, I'm not getting the same notes as you all but you know, that's me for not following directions. So this is this is the great label one that we're trying. So this is Yeah, this is the core product and this is

42:01 A marriage of

42:05 bourbon so principles john Daniels car says the main constituent of this product and also some Sherry cask from European oak and then also some of the brain for forming cooperage virgin oak, which is medium toasted and medium charge the same chat Tanya yes or no for a smell like Hawaiian Punch or like you know like the pineapple. Pineapple like like a toasted coconut like yeah more you know is that the more fruit you're gonna get? It just keeps on giving memory it just like is so fruit laden it's like a pina colada or something.

42:48 Well, you get pina colada Yeah. I got an apple orchards how work with ripened ripening peaches. Yeah, Rhino come up with the best tasting notes for you.

43:00 They're everything I had as a child. And I'm like, All right, we're gonna find this in the whiskey. Yeah. And you find it. I did. Well, I didn't have pina coladas when I was a child, but

43:11 I did have lion punch. Yeah. You ever had Hawaiian Punch? Yeah. Okay, cool. I know what you're talking about for all relatable still.

43:19 So very fatty. very fruity. Yes. Very nice. pear shaped cells. Yeah. You know. Beautiful. And you got a Yeah, I mean, some people who who drink wine really loves us. So, you know, becoming from Shapley or, you know, sharni you know, that fruitiness

43:37 is very, very distinctive layers of fruit. So, what kind of proof what kind of proof we're looking at 43% alcohol, which is 86 degrees proof.

43:49 So, it's a good strength. It's just the right strength to keep the fruit martynuk in perfect balance. So like with scotch like bourbon, they typically like art for years. We can start selling this one

44:00 Are you all like we can start selling this? Well legally it can be from three years old. Okay, okay, but I would never sell think about three years old because

44:11 the complexity is so much richer. It just gives you more a 10 years old so at three years is that for the single mother to be called a scotch? It has to be at least three years over boss. Okay, so any scotch whiskey be a blend of Multan green, because we do have green distilleries as well.

44:33 Like what other kind of grants or you know, we focus on the single malt because that's where all the flavor is.

44:41 So, if you look at other grains then is like like filler, like it doesn't really have it doesn't bring as much complexity or character to

44:51 the Scotch whisky industry was built on the complexity of single malt

44:58 and the green

45:00 Yeah, was pretty much there as a as a filler. Gotcha. See? Yeah, greens cheaper. So like, yeah, we're saying a mall is, you know, expensive to make the match process. It's handcrafted. It's you know, it's barley is expensive, sort of talking about aging.

45:18 Because it seems that barrels seem to like, retain a lot more liquid over in Scotland and Lino The longer they sit, I mean, you've you've got scotches that are yet wanting to learn 50 years old gin gin? Yeah, it's hot as hell. Yeah. And so we never get so Scotland.

45:39 I know sometimes I wish I lived there because be so easy to grow grass is the perfect weather. You know, we've got I guess that's why

45:49 we have an incredible landscape. Yeah, Scotland is so lush. And yes, it's perfect for barley as well on the east coast and then P on the west coast.

46:00 Public question. Well, yeah,

46:04 it's add, it's okay. I didn't count grass. Well, it's like, we're talking about how hot it is here versus Scotland. And I'm like Scotland is the perfect place to grow grass because grass here in June, July, it's like, it hates it. But it's good for bourbon because it's evaporating and moving it out of the barrel, you know, and I guess that was the question more along the lines of evaporation. I mean, you see in a lot of evaporation last over in Scotland that you would compared to like bourbon that are that's coming from Ohio, Tennessee, Kentucky, what what's considered a we call it a short barrel here, you know, like, if it's like below, like 100 bottles were like, Ooh, that's a short barrel. That one's gonna be good. Do you have Scotland? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We lose about on average for the whole industry. And it does vary. And then we get into another discussion. We lose about 2% of the volume and leasers about cold per year

46:57 of the original desk, which is ok.

47:00 We're about what five to 8% I think is kind of what you see around here at least at the first year. I think it's upwards double digits. But yeah, after that it kind of settled. Yeah. So what that means because it's a very slow reduction and also the the apple strength goes down. I know in bourbon, it goes up. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah.

47:21 There you go. I told you you were coming in with

47:24 no idea. Yeah. So the ankle strength goes down. And that means that you're extracting different things from the the old cast the longer you leave it because that strength is going down. But you're only losing 2% volume, meaning that you can leave it for longer. It's got more interaction with the word more oxidation, most importantly for single malt because that gives you the elegance of complex to the top notes, etc. The finesse that you find in a single malt is nice, but I'm how much different flavor now to get in this. You know, 86 proof tenure. What does this

48:00 single malt Yeah, yeah Ben REAC there's a lot going on it's like it's incredible the flavors you can get out of it. Like I said, we're pretty amateur and scotch and you know, most of the scotch I've had had been very heavy peated so it's like really pungent kind of earthy like smoky type. This is definitely more on the fruity or side and more like Captain Crunch berries. We ever can crunch with the berries. Sorry, talking to him, but I can imagine what you're enjoying. Well, so it's kind of like, you know, cereal in the milk. What will sugary substance yeah you have like a really sugary berries. And absolutely.

48:44 That is the 10 years or cheers for another delicacy here in Kentucky Fried pizza.

48:53 Fit pizza. Never heard of a big sugar cookie with the

49:00 Oh, I had that with this whiskey for lunch. See we're on the same wavelength. And it was just amazing because you get the fruit you get the malt which is like the creaminess of custard and vanilla. And then you get the oak, which is like the actual sediment on top and the lovely pastry base. Yeah, you know, so layered. Have you have you tried it yet? for pizza? If you tried this? Oh, no. Yes. I noticed you having a Oh yeah, we said we

49:29 are Ryan. Kenny. Ryan. Yeah. And then we have both been drinking.

49:35 So

49:37 we see Oh,

49:40 sounds good. Cheers. Cheers.

49:44 Y'all for pizza? Yeah, somebody new pairing? Take them take them back to Scotland. I will. Yeah, I said I probably I need to visit our local patisserie. Oh, yeah, maybe they

49:56 call it them. But it is it's just like a bakery. And that's the beauty.

50:00 Henriette, because it's in a sweet spot between the mansion in the sea and has a perfect environment to give you this balance of fruit modern look, if you go up the hill of it to other sellers, you get a little more kind of delicate fruit but without the malt. And if you go down it gets a bit more oil and it loses fruit. So we have the perfect balance to

50:19 little higher up. Yeah, yeah, cool. But this, I like the hierarchy. Yeah, yeah. Power up. Yeah.

50:28 What about the next Ben? And while I do the same facility? Yeah, yeah. It's the same, same.

50:34 different, different a different expression. But the different expression here and Black Label for anybody. Yeah, I mean, anyone that's curious. We have curiosity is anyone that's curious about beat because this is the piece of all there it is. Yeah. And going back to the 1970s. This is the only way

50:57 this is the only space side to have peace and welcome back to the 97

51:01 And and off space site. So an RP

51:05 is there has to be there has to be a ton of people that love that the taste and the smell of Pete. And I don't know for me it's hard to kind of gravitate towards like a more fan of of the the other Ben versus the peated. But yeah, I think this is also could have been my upbringing. I don't know if it's our upbringing it could be, you know, our palates not adjusted to it, you know, because a bourbon Bourbons very sweet. We've had torn pieces. Yeah, maybe that what it is, but you know that we come from Bourbons. It's very sweet. Yeah. Well about the barbecues.

51:38 Smoking weed like a ha ha. Yeah.

51:43 He likes to smoke me. I got my green and I got do some brisket, some pulled pork and some ribs. Yeah, like that. It does. And you have any forest you have forest. Burnham forest. So salvus in the forest, your brother a few boys, guys.

52:01 Tiger scout Yeah, start playing baseball maybe it wasn't about it I never really never really made it ever have the pleasure of maybe you know as you age just wow I love having a little campfire Yeah, I had I had flint and steel at one point I think that was the coolest thing ever got out of Boy Scouts was actually having my lens steel. Oh yeah, yeah, being able to actually create a fire with that like just, you know, well have a sniff back there. It will take you back there. You're in that forest. You feel like with your fire steel. You've got some marshmallows being toasted.

52:35 Ah, you've got some sugar maple in there as well. sugar maple.

52:43 It's just so it's just so radically different than what we drink. You know? That's, that's, that's why it's so like, it's still

52:50 just as you haven't tried to, you know,

52:54 open your mind. I knew I was coming into the diversity of flavor we got here you little bin is

53:00 The gateways are gateways God gateways gods and this is like Big Bang

53:05 well big bands little bit higher and strength as well okay 6% alcohol non chill filtered and nice to decrease gotcha what uh what are they? Were they coming out of the barrel typically at you didn't already say that did you know I didn't know we know they go down

53:20 okay so over 10 years, we're probably going to go from the felling strength of around 63.5% you say 163.5 is what you go into the barrel so 63.5% 136 730 737 degrees proof and then it goes down to losers over 10 years but 5% alcohol so I'll go down to about 5859 Okay, basically, pen Twitter's in the warehouse, concert warehouse it ends up in size of the warehouse. Traditional dunnage or tall is there an idea in the scotch world of like single barrels

54:00 Because I guess Glendora can Ben Rick, we we do single bottles for for for customers for you know for retailers, you know some of the specialists. So to see the single cast Yeah.

54:14 So yeah, absolutely. And we've got we've got cast strength and expressions as well so yeah. All right around the corner. So but this is 4692 degrees proof

54:33 right? Oh yeah, this one reminds me of like my

54:38 smoke a turkey every year for Thanksgiving and has this like Cajun rub that I put on it's like a real spicy and smoky so like, kind of get kind of makes me regret reminds me of that. And this is Barban cast. Cast. No wonder

54:57 I feel like I'm

54:59 still suffering.

55:00 That's why you're loving it because it's still got the sweetness. Remember I said it was the Pete has wood rich so yours like smoking mood. Yep. And then got the Emperor front caviar. And then unlike the island malts, we are very fruit laden even in distillation so we get all that fruit in there as well as the smoke. So like smoking a fruit pizza, smoking a fruit pizza. I love it. Yep. Get it on the cam everything. Everything is under the fruit pizza around here. Yeah. Oh, and maybe some some bananas on the barbecue with some chocolate in them as well. Dark Chocolate Chocolate. Banana croquettes it since you've been to Kentucky I've not had the pleasure. Oh, wow. Change Your Life. But I'm gonna ask for about Banana. Banana, rolled in. Mayonnaise and then bake. It sounds so good. And you could crush that peanuts on it. It's magical.

55:57 Barbecue that and it's this is exactly

56:00 Glass right here, nailed it. You know, you just have to open your minds and Kentucky to the flavors that you can join your food. You know? So I guess another question that we get to kind of, you know, kind of related back to bourbon a little bit is with inside of bourbon, we have this idea of like, oh, like there's a huge shortage, like, all these higher age expressions are getting very hard to find. They're very, very expensive. And everybody rushes and jumps and like there's this huge influx of people that are really starting to buy. Now, do you see that still happening like in the scotch worlders that scotch has just been around for so long? It's had the luxury of time and stocks and that you're able to still put out 10 2030 year old expressions and they've been agent since 1400. Yeah, you know, may I ask, Is there any actually left in the battle and Kentucky after 10 1520 years? Yeah, not much after, I'd say. What was it I think, you know, we have we know some distilleries around they have they have some 15

57:00 20 year old releases, but you're looking at 70 to 95 bottles in the bank cash during a cash drink something like that. You know you, you talked to Chris Morris we've talked about before and birthday Bourbons and stuff like that with the heat cycled warehouses that there are times that even 12 years old that they haven't the casks. Yeah. So imagine Christus forgot to put the plug.

57:24 I would imagine with Virgin oak, there would just be wood, wood and more wood. And lots of food. Yeah, I would imagine for a very long Oh, yeah, definitely. I'm sure like, it takes a lot. You're like, all right, this is very tacky, or Yeah, like, bitter kind of finished to it. So there's like we're all just going for balance. I mean, the fact that single malt. Ben music is so fruit Laden. It means that with maturation over a long time, you're just getting the escaping that balance convert in the woods into a softer flavors and

58:00 Get a lot of reactions happening rather than just a distraction. So it's very, very complex. But in answered your question, yeah, we've got some older songs and we're very lucky at Ben react because started putting in 1972 again, and we've got starts going back to the end of the piece of models. So we've got 21 year old Tim porous Well, it's fully peated but tastes like caramelize Pier. It's incredible. And Honey, I need to enable untoasted ever had a pair caramelized? There you go get on it on Oh, yeah, it's amazing. You know, so really, yeah. peachy, but you know, so And yeah, so we have all this wonderful whiskey that for people to discover

58:48 in flavor, you know, people are just waking up tomorrow. Well, so I guess the I go ahead and I was gonna say and these so what like a typical barrel dumping these blends like how many barrels are

59:00 Yeah, typically bad. Yeah. And Ben Rhea typical batch would be around 50 to 60. Okay, it's pretty small. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's pretty small batch single malt

59:13 per bottling and obviously I want to keep it consistent as well each time so yeah, very cool. Well, yeah so we bought mostly bourbon bourbon for the the Curiosity is the 10 year old was the virginal the Sherry and the the bourbon. And we've got lots more expressions besides using wine cast, etc. Oh, yeah, I get to play. So you're getting like me, it's like a pessary you get so much different flavor going on. He's going into that cake shop. Is it like here we have like a like,

59:47 I don't know what this word comes. My accountability partners are like tasting panel tasting panel. That's what I'm looking for. To like.

59:54 You know, just make sure that everything you're blending is consistent with the brand

1:00:00 Rachel or is there? Or is there a team behind you as well? That's sort of like to be on the team. I do. I think I've passed.

1:00:07 I think I could do just for pizza. You know, I've got an assistant. This is just one, just one assistant. On flavor side. Here. There's like a likes like five or six, five or six. However, however, you know, the distillery team as well, everyone gets involved. Everyone gets involved. Gotcha. You know, the final product is and speaking the final product, let's talk about the last one we have on our right, which is the Glen dronicus. So talk about what this is. And really what this expression is, as well. Yeah, you said it so perfectly drawn. Know, 55 minutes later, I think I figured it out.

1:00:41 Well, that means valley of the brambles. You've heard the brambles, brambles, brambles, no blackberries, blackberries there. Oh,

1:00:49 it's beautiful. It's in Highlands. But isn't a valley in the highlands. And it's I was born very close to silly brought up there. It's the richest most abundant

1:01:00 landscape for agriculture. You'd love it.

1:01:03 It's great soil. Great, just best barley and Scotland near Glendora distillery and primarily we use Sherry cask that's what really sets us apart

1:01:18 we say

1:01:20 there you go

1:01:22 really going hard with the apples here lots yeah like applesauce or rather not baked because what oh no they're not baked not be

1:01:31 there you go oh wow well I get everyone's nose is different of course Oh, sorry

1:01:39 yeah I mean ourselves she said yes we've got saxophone shape skills which means that we have a robust kind of earthy character and on top of that we've got all these fruits which are picking up

1:01:52 but Bramble fruits is quite dominant I think a picots figs

1:01:57 Oh yeah, all that going on. Kind of

1:02:00 Soft fruits and the and the darker fruits come through. So, with gone donek we source Spanish oak, from from Spain from Galicia is filled with two types of sherry, primarily

1:02:17 Pedro Jimenez and all the Russell and Pedro Hammond. I think we buy the most pedra Hammond f casks in the industry because Pedro Hammond eth is known as the King of cherries. And it gives you a really anxious kind of sweetness, dates, raisins, dark chocolate, all that going on. And that really sweet and then the other also is dryer and nuts here.

1:02:41 So yeah, so we for the 12 year olds

1:02:45 have 12 year old petropolis 12 year old are also and we bring them together, and the combination is the perfect balance for Glen tonic. So a question about when you're using

1:03:00 You know, x px and alluro. So barrels and stuff like that, because you use them multiple times over. Is there like a, because you're going to only extract so much of that flavor, you're not going to get it every single time. So it's like, Is there like a chalk line? It's like you like 123? Like, like we've used this three times. Yeah. And so and so you know, like we need, we need one that's first new fill or a few new fills to add into this to kind of keep that sort of consistency to it. Yeah, absolutely. It's just

1:03:32 my path I've got archaeon flight path and working on because obviously as volume grows, and it will people love going john, we're just gorging casks for the 12 year old and they're all first fill. pajamas and all their also you did ask in this first fill, and we just scored those and then we'll maybe refill them with new make the new fill. And then I know that it's going to take longer for a second fall. So it might be 18 years.

1:04:00 are more or am I even have to rewrap it back into ourselves? If it's not? If it's not if it's not worked as well or it's not extracting enough, but Spanish is incredibly deep in color and talents. It's like Spanish podcast last a long time. So, typically in the industry going back to the 19th century, there would have been used to be four or five times, you know, and they would have still been strong when it leaked, etc. The solid the Gothic. Steve's a big casks. And, but we only use them

1:04:35 twice, really? And if I was to fill a third time, I would probably not gonna give me Yeah, I'm gonna be back after a few years. I mean, reracked I take it take the risk out of that cast and put it into First of all, gotcha. Okay. So, you know, it's like, if you've got kids, you know, if they're doing well at school, you leave them as that school and doing well and they're flourishing and they're, you know, becoming great individuals, if they're not doing so well, that

1:05:00 school you might take it out and put into for school. Rachel, you hit the park with this one. This one's awesome like that you like the Glen? Yes. I think I'm a Glen fan. I like I like the valleys in the highlands. Yeah, well the thing about Glen janyk is I'm a judge at spirits competitions. Okay. And for me the whole mark of fine whiskey full stop. But especially fine single finest single malt is that it must be complex balanced loads of character. And always deliver more on the taste than on the nose. Yeah. xid expectations every time. This is Yeah, this reminds me of like a apple cider with all the you know the get the cinnamon sticks and the morning spices all in there kind of just like a little bit prettier version of that. But

1:05:52 I see again, the spice from the all are also cast. So you could get gin, warm gingerbread bake in the oven center.

1:06:00 Thanks absolutely great for Christmas. For me, like no, I think all our Christmas in a glass you know? Or Yeah, definitely fall as well. So you get a nuttiness at the back of the palette from the other also. So when you taste it up or just have another sip, yeah, go for it. Yeah, I guess I another question about because I know that Glenn tronic has a really big kind of cult following sort of behind it to like it's it's one of the most popular brands that are out there. And I know I joined

1:06:28 it I know there was a head of in in a probably a year, maybe a year and a half ago there was released called like 1993. It was kind of talk about sort of that and sort of some of these, these sort of special releases that are coming out that a lot of these sort of a whiskey nerds and scotch nerds are really going for Yeah, I mean, the beauty of Glenn donek is that its traditional, and we haven't changed anything. So it's that's why I call it it's kind of old style.

1:06:56 And what that means is your recommend nature and obviously we

1:07:00 You have seasons. So for example, the spring and the spirit of steel and I get a little bit more kind of like vines and almost a grapey quality from all it's incredible. And then into June I'll get more kind of dark fruit and jamee into October and Autumn in the fall. You get more of this nutty tobacco leaf leather is incredible. So what does this mean? Well, obviously when I create 12 year olds, I'm using whiskey from all the seasons and I'm giving that perfect balance taste, getting all that complexity that you love with a single casks, individual cask bottlings. You know, it's giving the connoisseurs an opportunity to wow they're appreciating all these different complex flavors that are coming through and different cast at different times. They're getting that chance to really have a taste of complexity of Plantronics and different individual cast. So it might be a cast that's more robust and more full body Normally, you know all our offices

1:08:00 Maybe from from November. Or it might be one that's a bit more spicy from the winter. Or maybe one that's just before Jeremy from the summer. Like, you know, no, that's awesome. So yeah, so and they love and they love discussing it. They love it. They love it, but you know your stuff.

1:08:21 Listen, I read a few forums and I see what people are talking about what they're buying, and I just get curious and that's just one of the things that happened. That's not quite a following Glenn Dornoch has got quite a following and more and more gravitating and I think you know, with this quality I think people in Kentucky are gonna love it. Yeah, and this one actually, you know, it has a little bit of a darker and richer color than than the Ben but well the Ben and Ben Maria can go and donecker all natural color. And that means it's just from the from the cast naturally cast imparted color.

1:08:53 Other other malts might be have caramelize for example.

1:08:57 But you know, it's all natural for us.

1:09:00 So, the color that you see is coming from the Spanish shock and pedra menethil are on the roster, Cherie. So, yeah, you get a more intense, more intense color. Well, you know, that's, that's awesome. And thank you so much for the information. And, you know, also, thank you so much for flying all the way to Scotland to have this interview with this unbelievable. I mean, this was a pleasure for us. So I know, I know, it was definitely an honor for us to actually have you on here. Because there's, there's probably so many people in the scotch world that know who you are. And it was a pleasure for us to finally have this introduction from somebody like you to say, you know, lead us through a scotch tasting like this. So it was it was really an honor. That's absolutely my pleasure to be with you. I hope I've managed to convert at least one of you to add single malt Scotch to your repertoire. I think we might have like a Glen and Ben might be in the ticket here. Yeah. So I agree. Glen and have been glad in the back. Yeah, yeah. So you're going for

1:09:59 Yeah.

1:10:00 glendan have been Yeah, I agree. I mean this cleanse dronicus really good. And then the I'm still I'm still not on board with the Pete yet. Maybe it just it's like everything else it just makes you like your coffee. I don't drink coffee I don't drink

1:10:13 coffee.

1:10:16 I either like it like black nothing in it like, like Peru or Nicaraguan blends, like they're real kind of fruity like panicky kind of, or I like it as an almond milk latte where you go nutty that's why you like them but don't like milk coffee cuz kind of like brings it down. See you like both bands Don't you like smoking on to you were there in the forest. I was in the forest in the camp, you know? Turkey and mark you were? Yeah, you see it's interesting because interesting. You don't like coffee because people will love coffee and coffee that that the tannins and the coffee and that that kind of lovely lingering taste. You know, they love video whiskey, they love the peated been no

1:11:00 The good thing about Pete been he's teamed up

1:11:05 with anything else, and when you're tasting whiskey and you're growing with whiskey, you know, everything is, you know, you get you get a progression. And you know, I remember the first time I had a peanut whiskey and I always just repeated scotch and I was like there's no way like why would people even drink this now I'm sitting here talking with you and we're and we're going through it and yeah, you're trying to take me back those memories and the times around a campfire and you can actually get you can get some of that from it. You can never been around campfire. He's in tech. I'm a city boy. You need to take him you know to take him

1:11:39 see us at least flip the switch and it comes on. Yeah, it's must be curious. You need to tell your drama kiddo once you get it to join our team.

1:11:48 We can have a picnic. Okay, we can take some fruit pizza as well.

1:11:53 Come over to Scotland will bring our fruit pizzas and we'll go and visit the Steelers with you. How about that sound like a good deal? Absolutely.

1:12:00 Can't wait to see you must come to visit us. We'd love to make it happen. I just finished a very close. They're only like half an hour apart. Wow. So it's easy. You can do both. It's like a bar sale. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Rachel, thank you again for coming on the show today. Like I said, it was a it was a true honor, especially from somebody of your caliber, in your history of being able to guide us through this was it was really fantastic. So Ryan, go ahead and start actually, I want you to also get an opportunity for anybody else that's out there that wants to learn more about you or wants to follow you on social media. What are the uragan Instagram or Twitter? Yeah, kind of talk about how people can get on.

1:12:43 Lady blend

1:12:46 on Twitter. Yep.

1:12:48 On Instagram, I'm RB whiskey maker. I like it. There we go. There you go. So now you go follow her and you can kind of get an idea of the the Glen's and the bends and everything we've been talking about today. So it's a fantastic

1:13:00 opportunities but our malls also have Oh Facebook sites are malls boundary I can land on it also they have Facebook sites and they're on Instagram and

1:13:11 Google and glasses oh yeah

1:13:14 did I say it right glasses to glass even tasted

1:13:21 points like if somebody were to go

1:13:24 okay so the the oh yeah we got we got to take it to the dollar $60 a bottle

1:13:31 yeah roundabout yeah and curiosity and the Glendon 12 Yeah, they're all around about $60 Oh, wow. So you just need to find your mo you know and we've got them out for everyone. You know

1:13:49 the T shirt in the making right there so you know whether you like your mom or your mom with Glenn and then there you go. You're welcome brown Forman. Yeah, yeah. No, thank you.

1:14:00 So much. This was an honor and a lot of fun. I think we had a good time I had like I had to get time, my way to join your team. And, you know, we'll do a bunch of tastings together, put the glyndon bands out there for everyone to like. But now,

1:14:14 I didn't know anything about scotch coming into this. So it was interesting for me to sit here and chat with you about it. And now I'm with me once I've kind of break that initial hurdle. Now it's like a deep dive in like, let's nerd out as much as we can about it. So I'm definitely a big fan of glyndon. So appreciate you taking the time and come to see us cross the pond. So with that, we'll see you all next time. Cheers to having me

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Bardstown Bourbon Company Fusion Series #1

Tue, 31 Dec 2019 10:30:15 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6tmCjN0HUs]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Bardstown Bourbon Company Fusion Series #1. This non-age stated bourbon is 98.9 proof and $59.99 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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233 - 2019 Review of Bourbons and 2020 Predictions

Thu, 26 Dec 2019 10:30:34 GMT

The Bourbon Pursuit team takes a minute to look back on some of our favorite podcasts we recorded this year. We also look at all the bourbons that were released in 2019 (around 55) and Ryan and Kenny vote on their favorite while we have to wait for Fred. Then we take some time to look into 2020 with what we think is going to happen with TTB labels, marijuana, tariffs, and the 3 tier system in 2020. We wrap up the show giving our individual 2020 predictions about barrel programs, secondary markets, and other legalities. Happy New Year!

Show Partners:

At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

Barrel Picks: https://www.patreon.com/posts/jack-daniels-wow-32305844, https://www.patreon.com/posts/eagle-rare-with-32446056
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about barrel char.
What was your favorite episode of 2019?
What was the most awkward episode?
Bourbons released in 2019.
What do you see on the horizon for tariffs and the export market?
Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020?
Will TTB crackdown on new COLAs in 2020?
Do you predict a shakeup in the 3 tier system?
Will we see the rise of the big secondary groups in 2020?
Other predictions for 2020.

0:00 You know, we weren't drinking whiskey this. I know as soon as we started I was just like, should we stop and get this? I was like, yeah, we're gonna roll let's let's actually we sounded much more cohesive, so maybe we don't drink anymore.

0:23 Everybody it is Episode 233. It is our final show of 2019. And usually during this time of the year, things are winding down, I guess except if you work in retail, then it's a bunch of last minute shoppers, but we still have some news to cover. So let's get into it. Last week, I opened the show talking about the craft beverage modernization and Tax Reform Act being in jeopardy. And we also talked about it in this week's podcast. Well, some hopes have been answered and the tax cut has been approved and extended for one additional year. It is passed in both the House and the Senate. So now, graph distillers can take advantage of one more year tax

1:00 breaks. So we'll see what's going to happen in 2020. It will be furthered again or if it's now time for craft distillers to start preparing for a 400% tax increase in 2021. If anything has the word Weller associated to it, there's bound to be some hysteria that follows. This past week, a new Weller single label that was orange hit the TTB. This caused a bunch of memes to spread like, well a pumpkin spice well or honey and even a Weller jaundice. I'm not too sure who thought of that idea, but the market needs no excitement every single week. Now, there are no public details from Sazerac on this line. So it's still yet to be determined when or even if it will ever be released. The proof and the price point. On the bourbon pursuit side, we're finishing out 2019 with a bang. For the past few weeks, we've been lucky enough to select two more single barrels for our Patreon community. Two weeks ago, we traveled down to Lynchburg, Tennessee to select a barrel proof jack daniels. And to my surprise, these whiskies they're only five years

2:00 result. But we ended up choosing a barrel that was 131 proof and just completely floored us on taste and complexity. It was also a good time just talking to a lot of folks that work there because it was truly an all encompassing experience with humble people who just love what they do. And we did our best not to getting into those is jack daniels of bourbon conversations. Anybody that works there because we knew it wasn't gonna go anywhere. And this week, or should I say last week, we traveled down to Buffalo Trace and selected our first ever Eagle rare barrel. And to keep the story short, we had our team of 10 people, along with Susanna who leads the barrel program with Joshua steely who manages the premier bourbon brands and the infamous Freddy Johnson. It was a split decision all the way to the very end, where Joshua and Freddy ended up being our tiebreakers. You can read the stories for both of these pic experiences with the link in our show notes. And these barrels will only and always be exclusively available to our Patreon community.

3:00 thank you as always to our retail partner, keg and bottle for making it happen. You can read more about them and order whiskey online and have it shipped to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. And not only that is we're starting out 2020. with even more barrel selections, we have our first 1792 foolproof selection happening on the third of January. So go to our Patreon page, check it out to see all the single barrels that we have lined up and the ones that are be coming in. As I look back and reflect on 2019 it's been a monumental year of growth for the podcast, but it was also the launch of our whiskey quickie series. We selected 19 single barrels from various distilleries, we really 17 episodes of pursuit series, and the podcast. It reached a new milestone of 950,000 downloads in 2019. So thank you, all of you out there that listen and support this podcast. We just couldn't do it without you. We decided to celebrate this very special occasion and buy some new equipment to help you even bring

4:00 better quality in 2020. So we can't wait to start recording all new podcasts with the new gear coming in. And today's podcast is going to be more about looking back at 2019 reflections but also looking into 2020. What was our whiskey of the year? And what do we think is going to happen with things like TTB labels, marijuana tariffs, the three tier system and more in 2020 we covered all in today's podcast, but first, sit back, relax and let's listen for what Joe has to say over a barrell bourbon. And then you've got Fred minnick with above the char.

4:32 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, myself and our master distiller Tripp stimpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Next time ask your bartender for barrell bourbon.

4:49 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char this week's idea comes from Jess or blonde ambition, on Twitter. Great handled by the way blog

5:00 invention, kind of jealous of that handle? she asked, What's the average char for a barrel. Now it's interesting, this is something that the distillers they tend to be very emphatic about their belief in the charring of the barrel. As you know, by law, every barrel has to be newly charred oak in order for it to store bourbon. And there have been a lot of experiments over the years to include buffalo traces, experiment for their experimental line that they store whiskey and in a barrel that was charged for nearly like two minutes and the barrel barely held together. So you can't really have a barrel that's charred for more than a minute, minute and a half in order to have like, decent volume come out of it. So the average char that most people use and that they found that they

6:00 derive the best flavor for them is usually about a char number four or 55 seconds, you'll also hear it called the alligator char. Now you're finding a lot of people really kind of live by the chart number three, chart number three is you know in that 45 second to 52nd range and it gets people a lot more you know, a lot more durability out of the barrel but the wood also gets, you know, when that whiskey gets deeper down there and that line, they tend to come out a little earlier. And I've seen some people do a chart number two and a chart one and to be honest with you, those whiskies tend to be a little greener, you find you find a lot of like a stringent notes and I had typically not been much of a fan of that of those. Of course all that is to say that at the end of the day charring plays, fire little or roll into the flavor of the

7:00 Whiskey then the leaving the stage outside and letting them dry age or the toasting mechanisms. So I think the charring while important, is not the most important aspect of the barrel. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or wherever the hell you want to at Fred minich just email me on my website Fred MiniK calm until next week. Cheers

7:34 Welcome back to the final episode of bourbon pursuit for 2019 Kenny Ryan and Fred down here in the I don't know is this is somewhat of a new setup for us. So we're trying to invest in some new equipment make it sound better make everything kind of work. So yeah, yeah. Wait until the very last episode. Here to get some new equipment. Well, you know, we're, I keep I keep looking at all the Fred stuff that he has and his new setup. I get jealous.

8:00 Do I get jealous and envious now? Yeah, Mike envy that little bit. It's a little bit of mine. It is at least you know how to turn it on. It took me it took me a while to figure it out to use that damn thing. Yeah, it's all right, we'll get there. But today, what we're going to do is we're going to be going over kind of like a recap of some of the favorite things that we did or we saw or a part of in 2019. Also looking into 2020 with some predictions and some kind of ideas that that I kind of have, and we'll kind of just, we'll take it from there. And you know, one thing that the certain data just originally came or just recently came out, there are now 800,000 podcasts that are out there now. And it's an astounding amount and we just want to say thank you to the listeners out there. Not all bourbon, are they out? Well, I mean, there, there's probably a new one every other day feels like it 800,000 other ones now, but you know, want to say thank you to all of our listeners out there, because we definitely appreciate it and hopefully you continue listening to us more as we go into 2020. But what's kind of one thing I want to kind of look at is kind of reflect back on 2019 a little bit

9:00 Like, you know, Fred or Ryan I'll let you kind of dive in or I'll kind of say a few of them like did you have a like an episode that you were really happy about or you're proud about or really got a lot out of you want to take this further you want me to go

9:14 you know, we had so many great ones. I really enjoyed getting Matthew Ray Walton here at English from WWE. And I, the reason why I I love that is you know, inevitably you're going to have new people come into into kind of like the media spotlight and everything for for whiskey and I I applaud that I want to see new people coming in and, and giving their opinion about whiskey and kind of like furthering the story of what we know whiskey is and who enjoys it. And to have like, someone of that caliber who's on TV like every every week and body slamming people I just think that's kind of cool. And you know, we've become pretty good friends and I just think what he has done for

10:01 Whiskey and continue to do so is is fascinating and I'm also I also it's not just because she's one of my best friends but the Peggy know Stevens episode that you and I did

10:14 notice both of those I was not a bar.

10:18 Well, we were mentioning this earlier, it's very rare that all three together it is and I think it's because, you know, it's kind of like when, when the President goes on the stage to talk, you know, you need to have one of the people in the bag, in case

10:30 too many chiefs. Yeah, there's gonna be one designated survive. Yeah.

10:35 This the Peggy no Stevens episode to me was like, you know, she revealed a lot of things there. That was, you know, she didn't have to. And, you know, I wrote the book, whiskey women, and I think she was she was a reason why I wrote it. She was a trailblazer in that in this world.

10:58 And then on the other side, Jackie's

11:00 I can whom we all three were there when was never a fun one she's always great. She's great and Campbell was great and you know I just got to tell you we had a lot of fun this year and every episode I was a part of and you know, just fantastic for me personally. Yeah, I mean for me one of the one of the ones I really enjoyed the most you know, as as Ryan I started venturing off into the our own little side business as well with pursuit spirits. But as we started really kind of like turning a new chapter for bourbon pursuit as well. Like we're, we're not just interviewing master distillers and it's not all cultural, but we're looking at even like, further behind the curtains of things. And that's when we did Episode 182 with Jeff hoffmeyer, brinda yamo and really talking about like, what's the secrets behind sourcing whiskey? Like we all knew that there were there were source whiskey out there, but not a lot of people knew the process what it takes there. I mean, got every talked about, like the whole like a counterfeit full of or a whole truckload full of like counterfeit rum potentially Right. I mean, like

12:00 There was there's a lot of things that a lot of people just didn't really know about it beforehand. Yeah, that was kind of like

12:06 that broke a little news in our world for for a broker to come out and say that there's counterfeit bourbon out there, and someone's bottled it and we don't know who you know. And as a consumer, it's kind of like, it kind of goes back to that old. That old adage, really only buy wood from people you trust and like, that's why the distilled and bottled by are like a source purveyor. Like the pursuit series.

12:32 Your best What's that?

12:35 But you know, that opened a lot of eyes, I think. And yeah, I totally agree. What about you, Ryan? Do you have a favorite one from this past year? Or maybe the most awkward one? Well?

12:49 Well, I think everyone knows which the most awkward one detail. I don't know which one you'd be referring with a counterfeiter, which, I mean, that probably is I it was awful.

13:00 Doing it at the time because it was so awkward but

13:04 as Fred and I talked about with other people and I think it did bring us three like a lot closer and you know because you know you had some people taking shots at us and questioning and all that stuff so we kind of we kind of bonded over it so that and I think a lot of people enjoyed it as well kind of shed some light on a dark subject of this hobby and hopefully deter some people from doing it but probably my most like memorable and fun one I always am in amazed by the business aspect of this and like I really enjoyed the one we did with coffee just because I've started businesses you know myself and on a much smaller scale than he had with rabbit hole and like this guy was literally leveraging his everything to make it happen and you could just tell like, you know it, it was about to come to fruition but it had yet and later we found out that you know, they were purchased by a printer card and

14:00 It was just fascinating for me to hear, you know, because I mean, it's ballsy to come into Kentucky, where you have the most you know, you have the big boys and literally that in you have no connection to the industry whatsoever. And you just start a brand and in succeed like that, it's pretty incredible. So, and I wasn't on that interview, but Kobe is someone who definitely came in and, you know, made some enemies in the process as well. And like he, and he, but he kept pushing forward and his way and so that story is fascinating. For that reason. He got like, one of these big entrepreneur organizations, you got Entrepreneur of the Year for the whole country. So like he's, he caught a lot of people's attention naturally. That's, I mean, it says impressive and, you know, speak on the business side of things like one of the ones that both you were not there for, but I was one dealing with Episode 223 with Ken Lewis, a new riff and really hearing his story of how he just

15:00 Kind of like just randomly got into the liquor business. And then he eventually sold off the the party sources that now become liquor barns in Louisville. And now he just has that one. He had that one location and said, you know what I want to get into the actual distilling process and everything like that, and then kind of talked about how when he was actually at the party source, how he bought all these barrels of MGP just saying like, hey, like, I don't know, maybe I'll do something with them one day. And you know, lo and behold, that's really what kick started everything that happened in New Earth and they did a clean cut from Okay, to their own product. There was no blending or anything like that, and they're not sourcing anything else. It's just moving towards their product and you know, they've had a strong 2019 as well even going into it from from that side, man. Think about how good their whiskey is to know you know, and they just

15:47 they just kind of came out of nowhere for a lot of people we've we've known about them for sure. But for a lot of people are just like discovering new riff and they're like, Oh my god, this is good. And so that story too, is like it's so rare and whiskey.

16:00 That we see someone who Gamble's at all, and and then their whiskies. Good. Yeah usually it's things we see most of them that that don't succeed you know we get you're like, man I'm sorry you spent your whole life savings on this and make this sorry about that but now it's it's hard for me to remember what episodes got released this year because we record some and some get released and so I'm like, you know, just thinking back because if you're not familiar with our process, we batch record I know you're familiar with it but the audience

16:32 we batch record to me, Vance and kind of release them as we go and just so the audience can know and feel sorry for Ryan and I we've just been bullied into like that we have to plan for the next quarter and right after this and it's like we have to come up with new episodes and and he's been trying to schedule it can he's been trying to schedule this with us for a long time and we have a whole syllabus of like, coming up after the show. Let me get your copies at the door. Have a seat. We're going to go over that.

17:00 what's what's your here's a question for you, Kenny. What is your? What's your favorite moment of trying to get Ryan and I to do something? Probably when I get to call y'all names I'm like, well, you bastards. Finally look at these texts. Charlie, I'm trying to get answers to plan the calendar January. I don't like, like,

17:19 I'm in Disney World Day. I'll be back home said no, but I mean, like I said, finally, like when I get those, I feel like I'm just it's it's always waiting. And then as soon as I get it, I'm like, okay, bam, I can start knocking things out, start getting everything ready. And there's there's a whole process behind it. I just got to make sure that we're gonna add like two weeks buffer, you know, when you try to get stuff done with us. Right.

17:41 But I applaud you for for the person. The Pursuit pays off. Yeah. Oh, there we go. So let's go ahead and let's start, you know, looking at to actually, you know, kind of talk about this too, because I don't want my best Bourbons of the year. I don't know, you know, I know Fred's gonna be recording his you know that we're recording this here.

18:00 About two weeks prior to this actually being released and Fred's going to be releasing his, his best Bourbons and best whiskies of 2019. You know, Ryan, I kind of want you to kind of talk about this too, but you know, I think 2019 was actually a very very good year for American whiskey and bourbon. And I'm I actually wrote down every single limited release and everyday bourbon that got released to and I'm just going to go through this really quickly because I want just to say like, just the gravity of really what went out there. And as soon as I say these things, you'd be like, Oh, yeah, that was actually just like back in February now now kind of rain. So of course you've got the antique collection and you got Van Winkle but you had Cornerstone right Elmer tealy 100th The amaranth grain of the gods four roses 2019 small mash Maker's Mark RC six angels empty cash drink knob Creek, quarter oak, double Eagle, very rare old charter oak series, angels envy Ella Rosso Bardstown bourbon company with their fusion fight for habit more. Bill need had some experimental that came out web saffle eight and Sam from GP for gateway.

19:00 Four releases this year blood oath pack five old Carter had a few Bourbons and rise. Woodford Reserve backer at addition Woodford Reserve batch proof Woodford Reserve chocolate malted, rye, peerless bourbon Weller full proof. 1792 12 year king of Kentucky 2019 Baker's 13 Wild Turkey, Cornerstone right I had on there twice, so maybe I'll take that one back. Old forester birthday bourbon Parker's heavy char rye, Kentucky, bourbon number nine Stranahan snowflake 2019. Remus volstad, reserve bourbon from MGP. And those were all the limited releases. So now we go into just the everyday releases. Old forester rye, crema Kentucky they had two releases this year for roses small batch select heaven Hill bottle and bond seven year Cooper's craft barrel reserve 100 proof Maker's Mark 100 proof uncle nearest 1884 small batch whistlepig piggyback rebel yield 100 proof Woodford Reserve week whiskey decal 13. Year bottle and bond, Jim beans legend Kentucky out confiscated Baker seven and the bullet single barrel program was also announced. And then you also had others like barrel dovetail all the barrel

20:00 releases all Bazell Hayden, Caribbean, right, you had all of the Booker's batches. I mean, when I did account, like we were saying we have options out there. It was like almost like 55 new entrants into the market this year of just limited releases. But there's also a good handful of just every other day stuff. So in my opinion, 2019 was a fantastic year for American whiskey. So there's there's two things two ways to look at this one. Yes, it was a fantastic year. The other way is is that these distilleries are getting savvy about releases Yeah, every every release is a new press release is a new story somewhere it's new and so they're not just like saying like, Okay, we got Woodford Reserve and Maker's Mark, let's go, you know, pushing that so they, they've, they've learned that the consumer base like something new, special and different. And so that's what that list tells me is that some some MBAs and the boardrooms have spotted that and it's the strategies were

21:00 Yeah, I think it also tells us that, you know, they're starting to catch up on their stocks of aging product. They're starting to, you know, you starting to see like, seven, eight year, you know, stuff getting pushed out there that, you know, finally they weren't, you know, eight years ago they didn't have and so I think they're able to catch up on and start releasing some more stuff now. I mean, this was this was just from the big guys, right like this is this doesn't even take account the other 300 craft distilleries or maybe 3000 craft distilleries there are across our nation now. Right. So there's a lot of stuff that was released. And for it, I kind of see what you're saying that this is, this could be a telling sign of what is going to come in 2020 like, yeah, we just named off maybe like 3030 to 40 kind of like, you know, big kind of things that kind of shook up that. It's because it seems like every week that there's a press release, and everybody's like, Oh, yes, I gotta go get this one. Right, right. I mean, even just last week, like pretty much everybody around here. We got

22:00 larceny barrel proof and we got the old Fitz 15 years and it's like, okay, like already gearing up for first to 2020 to go and find new bottles, right? So I guess that's just kind of the maybe that's just a new evolutionary cycle that we're going to see. And I would like to say like what the question to me is like you say that list and we know their strategy, I think what can be very telling us the pricing of each one of those as like. And the one the the big winner of that entire list to me, is the old forester rye coming in at $23. And that's just and we know that Jackie's I can kind of fight for that to be at that price point. And the other ones like you know, where what are their price points, I mean, they're hovering anywhere between 75 and 150. And so you know, a lot of these like new kind of products, they're not really pricing in, you know, the old consumers who brought them to the dance, they're, they're gone for that. That new consumer who's like thinks that $75 is too

23:01 Yeah, I mean, I could definitely see that I mean, I think Ryan and I, we we had this conversation of even before we went in the car when we were just talking about pursuit series and we're talking about like, oh, like what happens if we run out of glass and we just like kill the brand and start a new brand? Like what like what do we do here? Right so there's there's definitely even though it's very smaller scale, we have ideas and things even think about you know, even when that happens, but Ryan, what about you mean is there one of these like everyday ones that kind of like stuck out to you or anything like that is kinda like maybe one of your best whiskies of Yeah, I mean, Fred already mentioned that before sir I mean, it's frickin It's so good.

23:39 I get it in pretty much when I can every cocktail to like it's good both ways. And then the the decal bald and bond I thought was really excellent. You know, and price grade and, you know, the blind tasting of the heaven Hill, bald and bought seven year also proved that it's a very good and you know, at 40 bucks as much to your chagrin

24:00 Right, much to my chagrin, but

24:02 it's really good whiskey and it's $40. You know, like Fred said, most stuff that you got to get that quality is like 7500 bucks. So, you know, that's, you know, it was good. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I guess this will be another question for you all like going into 2020. Can you picture bigger brands trying to come out with more extensions that drive a price point even lower? Or do you think they want to create more extensions that create a higher price point to try and match some of the craft distillers, the Sorcerer's and everybody out there that can't make a price point as low as you can if you're actually distilling it you own these barrels for since they were, you know, basically born at that point? Well, we had to market leaders come out with very lowest price points. Brown Forman, and the Ico so brown Foreman's old Forester, Ryan Diaz, you would be George decal, bottle, the bond and those two kind of like under, you know, let's say $30 or

25:00 $40 price points.

25:03 You know, that was very telling to me, and then you saw beam do that as well, like they're not pricing on collection. Yeah, they're not pricing high. So I do think that there is a little bit of an effort to kind of make us think that they are pricing in that direction, like larceny still like 25 bucks for for the most part most places you go. But then there

25:27 you know there are other things are like 150. So that I think that what you're seeing is, is that you're seeing that they're going to always have something under $30. But they're going to start stacking the chips toward that hundred and $50 market and I think we might start seeing the price go up more because the demand is there in the high affluent areas that places like

25:51 I mean Hollywood, places like Wall Street. So there's like a desire to have this and they and they and that crowd just won't drink it.

26:00 $30 whiskey, they just won't it's timin that's cheap. They're too good for that. And so if if the bourbon industry does not price themselves to be competitive to scotch for those money people, then they won't get them and then so that's kind of like their rationale behind a lot of it. Yeah, I mean, you are seeing a lot of things that are pushing that hundred $50 price point and I can definitely see exactly why they would want to do it too. I mean, you've got to you have to push to kind of get those affluent people I mean, we see it all the time. I mean, we've I always say for myself that I don't have a drinking problem I've got a buying problem and I will always be able to go and if I find any limited edition bottle like even if it's hundred 50 bucks I'll be like, Yeah, go ahead and get it like it. I just don't know i mean, i i have a I have a bad urge. always buy stuff, right? That's, that's just me but at the same exact time, there's always going to be a lot of people out there in the bourbon world that are never going to pass up anything that a price point that is limited or anything like that, too. So I don't know. We'll

27:00 We'll kind of see how that plays out in 2020. So we're kind of moving on a little bit here. So looking into 2020. So one of the things that kind of happened even recently, as even as of today, it's still kind of unfolding, as we talked about that. In 2019. There's been a trade war, we've had tariffs, we've had a lot of things going on that has really hurt bourbon in export interest. And we've talked about it plenty of times of how the export market is really where a lot of growth can be, as soon as you start getting all the scotch drinkers around the world to actually start seeing bourbon as a first class citizen form. And so there's been things have already kind of progressed a little bit today. There's been some stuff with China. We're not going to get too into politics here, but I kind of want to figure out like,

27:45 what do you all see on the roadmap or their horizon for this in 2020? This is very scary as we record this right now. I mean, there might have been, there might have been something that came to fruition, but at the moment in

28:00 In Washington, DC, the craft Modernization Act is on the table to be renewed. And if it is not renewed in craft distillers, I think we'll talk first, what is the craft Modernization Act to because I know I've heard about before I read it, but for everybody, I have no idea what it is. So, basically, this was a so you got a lemonade stand, they give you $5 now, so to keep it to kind of keep it

28:25 to basically to give you like, the the easy version is that a couple years ago, they passed a craft Modernization Act, they basically gave craft distillers as defined by you know, the the government or we AC essays qualifications,

28:42 that they would get less they would pay less taxes, then then the big guys and it gave them kind of a competitive advantage. This was very, very important to them, especially as these terrorists were coming on and they were losing those like foreign markets because they couldn't afford to, you know, to eat the 20 years.

29:00 25% tariff that they were going to go overseas and so there was sunshine clause in that which means that when it's when this period is up, you know, they're going to cut it and or they're going to re evaluate it and that period is up and so now you have craft distillers who are looking who've been you know, taking advantage of this tax and investing it back into their you know, there's like a paying taxes on certain areas and they've been investing it back into their company. And when if that goes away, then they have to you know, there's like a 200 400% tax increase like right away on on like excise taxes and that puts them at a competitive disadvantage. You know, some of these guys have like big corporate support like you know, wouldn't build those now and rabbit hole and people like that, but for the most part, this is very dangerous, very dangerous and and from what I can tell, it is not good.

30:00 Going to may not pass and the other thing is too is that also defined a lot of things in in spirits

30:08 like or in drinks like a define Mead and gave like some definitions to meet and there's also another thing that's happening kind of on the federal level is that they're trying to define what a barrel is and with that would eliminate the basically the smaller barrels and the craft distillers have you know love them or hate them for it but they've kind of defined their ways with those smaller barrels. And so I've always felt like there's a lot of like

30:34 backdoor Washington stuff going on with the big boys you know, the trend kind of cut out is squash some of the little things and because that means you take away those smaller barrels, I mean, he basically eliminate probably a quarter to half of of the craft whiskey distillers

30:51 I guess I kind of like a follow on question to that is,

30:55 you know, you talked about investing into the business, you talked about being able to

31:00 A lot of that money means is dc dc if if this doesn't pass like is 2020 going to be like the year of either sink or swim for a lot of these craft distillers than I do. I mean, I think 2020 is a very telling year.

31:14 And if you don't have money if you're if you're cash flow short, this is this is going to be a bad year. And then the other thing too is like, just what you're starting to see. You're starting to see and you guys are a part of this and a little bit. You're starting to see like independent bottlers come in and they are relieving a little pressure by going to the smaller distillers and buying barrels. So what you're seeing is is like anybody who has some solid craft whiskey, they're actually putting stuff out on the market. So they're getting kind of kind of a band aid effect. They're not helping their brand, but they're getting cash flow by selling 15 barrels to last lantern or 15 barrels to bourbon pursuit to bottle

32:00 Are pursued series to bottle for for upcoming line. And so that that's 111 positive for these guys is that there there's there's a business model there that can help them. But you know if they're new and they're little cash strapped they don't have aged whiskey man I want to be in their shoes tough What about you? Rami? What do you see something that happened with the export market like here? Do you think it's going to get better or worse?

32:33 Well, I mean, I guess it all really it's so hard to predict with the election coming and everything there's so much in the air like

32:40 nobody knows what's going to happen and the dude know we're all going to need a drink.

32:46 Yeah, exact. We're all for that one. It's just so you know, the waters are so unsettled there in Washington, you know, on both sides, and so it's hard to predict anything on with anything with what we have going on.

33:00 In 2020, it's just like, let's all just be nice, you know, in 2020, let's just we're all bourbon brothers, you know, not let the politics divide is but as far as exports, I have no idea because it's, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are sitting back to waiting to see what happens. Yeah, I would think that something in a trade war needs to that sound like an educator responded said a very educated who will let it will let it pass. But I mean, for me, I kind of see this as I would like to see something change. You know, we we talked about it before, I've seen the export market as as the could be the future of bourbon growth. And you don't want another whiskey glut era to say that, you know, a bottle of bullet here in Kentucky or in the United States is $35. And then you go across the seas, and then it's $75 when there's a bottle of scotch for 50. Nobody's going to go Yeah, by the bullet, right. I mean, so well, and I think right now, like Remember, our young said with he said, Well, even though we have issues with exports over there, we can fill a need here and domestically. So you know, I think the need here domestically, still as

34:00 So, so much that it's not really going to affect too many people except for like jack daniels who relies heavily on exports. Yeah, and that is true and they're losing like 120 $5 million. Which, but still for them that's like, that's like one day I revenue probably. But

34:18 it matters. It matters because the world stage the conversation is, is like it kind of goes back to really, you know, the 1950s when these bourbon distilleries were fighting to make bourbon a unique product to the United States and get exports overseas as they were always coming up against the Battle of like foreign governments saying like, you're not whiskey, you're not you're not whiskey. scotch is whiskey. And so so all a lot of this is is a kind of,

34:51 it's kind of an international battle that just hasn't stopped in, you know, scotch and bourbon brands that they're very closely knit and everything but

35:00 You know, scotch is dominant is dominant and it is known as whiskey and bourbon is just like a, like a fraction of what they get. And and, and I don't think that the bourbon brands will ever fully admit this. But they're jealous of scotch and what they have done internationally. It's like Kenny with your MC. Yeah.

35:24 Pretty much

35:27 and they do it with us bourbon barrels. And so they're like, you got our dirty second sloppy seconds. Right? And,

35:35 and so they want they want a piece of that. And as then that's all there is to it, but they're also not in a position to do it. And so like, you know, Al is very smart to say like, we can't do it overseas, which, so let's focus on domestic markets. I mean, that's the it's the right move. I mean, I I'd venture to say places like Boise, Idaho and Bismarck, South Dakota is not right that South Dakota riders and

36:01 South Dakota I left my Atlas upstairs. So I'd venture to say that places like that, you know, you might go into a random place and there's five Bourbons, you know, why not make it 20

36:13 All right, Ryan, I'll talk to you a little softball here right because one of the great conversations that we did have this year we talked about marijuana and whiskey and whether they were going to have an impact on one another or anything like that, but this was actually something that Chris Hart had actually posted out on one of the forums and says, Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020

36:36 I mean especially with with all the states that are going to opening up legalization to like it's it's there is a trickle effect happening cbds and everything so I mean, you drive around here and Kentucky I see signs like on every gas station every like I think I saw like a mechanic shops that we sell CBD here or something, you know, it's like

36:55 diversify, diversify. bound. Oh, I guess I mean, if they look if it's legal that you

37:00 I think they will because people, I've talked to people and they'd really seem whether it's a placebo or not, they really think the CBD like works for them and whatever element they're trying to deal with. But uh, you know, I mean char Bay's pretty close to doing it anyway, so I'm not a hobby ever whiskey. And I'm not sure that it will taste good, but maybe, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, it can't be called bourbon, right? Maybe I don't really know. But can it be called bourbon? If he doesn't if he can't, because it's not really low what unless you're distilling with it right. One of the things that has been done is they take the seeds and they distill it in a in a like, qualifies as a grain under the hemp rather qualifies as a grain as a seed on like some kind of USDA code. And so there have been people who have mashed it and cooked it and fermented it and y'all know me Romans one

38:00 of those that had done that previous previously and then from here's the thing about this, I've talked to a lot of, you know, marijuana people and they don't really want this, it seems to me like, and I'm sure there definitely are people who you know, within the weed business who want to see like infused alcohol. But most of the people that I talked to who are kind of like in the, you know, the luxury lifestyle of marijuana, like trying to like make it be like its own thing, they're like, you know, pair it, but don't, don't combine it they want they would like to see you know, marijuana become like a, like a luxury good as something that you would enjoy recreationally like we do bourbon, and they don't like that a lot of them don't like the idea of combining it with alcohol because that perpetuates like a stoner or a drunken kind of, it's hard to like persona, you know, it interacts with somebody so differently, you know, right. And then you interact you have the two and it's like, well, how do you dose it you know, correctly say, one shot for somebody might like

39:00 I'm trip out and like call the ambulance on themselves or something, whereas somebody else needs like four. And so I don't know, it just seems like it'd be tricky to combine the two were because you can't really dose it out as well. But constellation invested billions into the business for a reason. And they're studying like how how to get it to metabolize the same way as alcohol because, you know, weed metabolizes differently than alcohol, and they're trying to figure out how to make it work. So someone's going to do it eventually. Next Best gummy.

39:31 I mean, so there's, there's, there's eventually it's going to happen. I mean, who knows? Who knows? I mean, I could see it happening. I mean, they're there today, they're already infusing different kinds of sports drinks or anything like that with it. But you know, alcohol is a, as we all know, a very heavy, heavy regulated kind of sector here. So pick up again and get shipping much less and

39:54 using it using it with Oh, gosh, you know, so, you know, this is the other thing

40:00 That I kind of got wind of this. We had a Patreon community person actually sent us a sample of this. And it was called it was from heritage distilling and it's called BSB 103. And it stands for brown sugar bourbon, and it says this high altitude bourbon is flavored with natural brown sugar and cinnamon for flavor kick that will sure wake you up whiskey aficionados looking to try something new. Also, it was only 60 proof and not 80. And this originally just kind of just went through the TTP went through the whole approval process like didn't really say much about it right? Is it is it labeled as like your flavored whiskey or it says it's like the fanciful name is BSB 103. Okay, underneath it and say brown sugar, but it says no, it says like brown sugar, bourbon and like letters and all around. It's what it says everything that it was originally just called brown sugar. bourbon is what originally called they had to rename it to be sb 103. And so we know that this isn't the first time right there's plenty of other instances where we've seen things

41:00 Just a slip through the cracks and yeah there's a bottle and bond like flavored whiskey few years ago. I mean it happens this is what keeps Wade interesting, right? is what keeps him like, you know really like metal. So I guess, do you do you all think that the TTB and just in 2020 in general, do you think it's gonna even get more relaxed or more strict

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42:34 Do you do you all think that the TTB and just in 2020 in general, do you think it's gonna even get more relaxed or more strict? I mean, I know there's other laws that are on the books but what he kind of sees the head turner patron are going to happen here. I mean, it's with any government agency, its resources like you know that they probably just have limited resources and it's like, you know, with us when we apply for any federal thing for personal

43:00 series like whereas the transfer and bond or state ABC, you like submit it, and you check back three weeks later, like, oh, we're still looking at stuff from six months ago that submit and you're like, what? Like, stuff just moves slow just because they only have like two people working in the office doing everything. So they're probably overworked, overwhelmed. So things just slip there. I think they'll follow the laws as best they can. But there's human error when you know you have that. So there's definitely not a whole lot of automation takes place, even though I will say the TTB did start a new new registering and cola system in 2019. It did happen. So they have a new like portal and stuff like that. But I think the backend work is still very manual process read, do you read to say something? You know, I think for the most part, they do a good job considering that they have like five people, you know, looking at all those labels and God that can't be easy, and everyone gets frustrated with them. And they're an easy target. But

43:53 I always like to go back to the person who creates the label. What are you doing? You know, I mean, you you've been

44:00 agreed to not protect yourself. And if you put that through as as bourbon on your application, then you're in violation of the law. And so, you know, I think we sometimes beat up on the TTP, and rightfully so often. But here it's like

44:19 put, I put the blame entirely on, on on the applicant. Well, and it's, I noticed this other day, you kind of mentioned it like separating, you know, bourbon from whiskey category, like in, I never really thought it was that big a deal until I went to the liquor store. And you go look at the bourbon section, and it's huge. And then the American whiskey center is like really tiny, and it's off to the side. And it's like not, it's not visible, you know, from everything else. And so I can see why someone would work so hard to get that

44:52 slip by just to get that designation because if you're right there, in the midst of what everybody else is buying, versus being kinda off to the side of the marriage.

45:00 Whiskey category I can see where it's worth it. Yeah, I mean, we've we've, we see it all the time. I mean, whether you're coming out with like a wheat whiskey or an American whiskey, something like that, and yet you're not gonna have the eyeballs because it doesn't say bourbon on the label. Yeah, I mean I think that's that's one of the big issues that we do see and probably why there is so much entrance into the market

45:19 then you've got people playing with all kinds of different experimentations I I think I just saw an email this morning about 100% corn, bourbon, I'm like, Okay, I guess it technically is it's bourbon right? But it's just like it's like we're just we're playing with all different variations of this category to try in make sure that everything is still hitting that that Big B word on the label at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's funny what like once upon a time there was like a limit on like, how much corn you could put in for bourbon. But then that went away a long time ago, but that would not have been considered bourbon back in the day. Oh, I love listening old Fred stories over here. It's like another thing too. I don't think he was around.

45:58 This is like, is like

46:00 barrel entry proof if we if we were to go back to like 1955 more than half of the Bourbons on the shelf today would not be considered bourbon. No. Because it was what like one oh wait a second 115 or something was 110 was the was the legal maximum limit difference for for barrel entry proof and that changed in 62 inches Do you think the reason success of new roof and wilderness trail and others you know because well I guess well as they have a higher Berlin troopers, do you think lower barrel entry proof makes 1,000% I really do. I mean, and here's the thing is it is it is really good. In certain what I have noticed is that's really really good between like three and five years old, and like anything after like eight but that but that six to eight years old, it can be really, really, really flat.

46:50 The the higher barrel entry proof can be fantastic up to 12 years old after 12 years old. That clock is ticking because that it's like it seems somehow absorbed.

47:00 more wood. And Andrew Wilson from Victor's is the best person to talk about this. She talks she breaks it down from a chemical aspect and everything and as you know, makers is going in the barrel of 103 proof which is the lowest in the industry. And it to me it's one of it's one of the more enjoyable conversations to have about whiskey because

47:22 I feel I feel that not enough attention is paid to it but yet the Pete there are a lot more people paying attention to it. And willness Trail and new riff and those little barrel entry proofs Absolutely. Making making nice whiskey. Yeah, I mean, they're definitely making waves when you when you have that because somebody tastes it and you're like, holy crap, this is a four year old bourbon like this is actually really good. Now the one thing that you know, you say you really like it, I say one of the one of the downsides to it. It doesn't have and maybe this is just because, you know, you think of like the stags, the stag, juniors of the world, stuff like that. It doesn't have like that, that link

48:00 Green very long finish where something has like that hard spice to it or anything like that. Like this Like creamy delicate today that's that's exactly right. So you're basically looking at a style and a preference here like do you like that butter style dripping down your jaw line or do you want to feel that? You know, that's punch in the face punch in the face

48:20 cinnamon or something in the here's the thing. I like all of them. And it's like how does how does that one feel on my palate and you kind of like it's just like it's like football you know? They're they're running backs who will run you over in our amazing and then there are running backs who will go left to right, you can't tackle them and they spin and then there are running backs, who all they're good for is catching a pass and blog. There's the Barry Sanders and the Jerome Bettis is the That's exactly right. So like that on a T shirt. They're all great. It's just like what is your preference for your offense or for your palate in that moment? Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely times when I'm like oh yeah.

49:00 I'd like to do like, like something that's, you know, if I'm just sitting there on the couch and I just want to do something that's like, yeah, like you said, caramella, very buttery, sometimes I'll reach for dusty and that kind of aspect. And then there's sometimes I'm like, All right, we're going hundred and 20 proof and above right now. So yeah, there's definitely the kind of situational context for it to write on. So one of the things that we talked about a lot in 2019, is we talked about the three tier system, we talked about shipping, we've talked about all these things. And this is and you know, the the Supreme Court case of the state of Tennessee with total wine and some other ones that were kind of envelope in there, and how this is potentially going to open up the market for some change. Here, maybe in 2020. So I kind of want to get your take on what is there going to be a shake up in the three tier system, can you foresee it happening? Are there too many lobbyists? Will the will the people revolt like what do you all kind of see, I think it's always way I would that, you know, you asked me this six months ago

50:00 I thought we were close. And I just feel as the more I get into it, the more and more the big. The big players involved are just digging in, and they're digging in hard and they're not going to let this happen. I just, I just feel like we got a ways to go on it. I always go back to this and this was in one of my above the chars A while back 46 state attorneys general signed a letter and made it like kind of like their mission for 2020 this DOP secondary sales on Craigslist,

50:35 I just can't even believe that would be on the radar. And you know, and then putting the efforts in the that just shows me that they're like sticking in hard to the three system. It's not. I mean, it's not like they just like put out a press release. I mean, they were doing media, they were putting out detailed plans. They were setting up meetings with the social media entities. And I'm just thinking to myself, I'm scared to death of my

51:00 five year old getting kidnapped in target when my wife is going and Christmas shopping with him. And he's like stuck there by like trying to get in there because that's where human traffickers are there like in places like that. Why are we focusing on that? And yes, is it is there a potential that you know, there can be some kind of like poisoned alcohol out there? Yeah, there is. It's called in the heels of like Appalachian places where people are making illegal whiskey. No one is getting or illegal moonshine. No one is getting that in these like consumer facing forums, and the fact that they are using, they're actually coming out and they're citing Pappy Van Winkle right now. They're citing Pappy Van Winkle in these conversations. And the fact that they are doing that tells me that they don't get it. They don't understand that this is actually a consumer base that is really just supporting one another and not trying to, you know, for the most part not making money

52:00 People who are like saying they're in Maine or they're in Idaho and and they got a buddy in Kentucky and said, Hey, we have no Henry McKenna here.

52:10 Can you give me a bottle, you know, something like that. And there's no effort whatsoever to support the consumer base from the brands from the government from the distributors or anything like that. And that's that's my biggest problem here is like if you want to take off if you want to go after the secondary markets, fine. Okay, that's your that's your Hill. But what about what about like consumers who are really have fallen in love with this?

52:38 With this world, this bourbon world, we get an email every day from someone who just finds bourbon, they listen to the podcast, they want to learn more, they want to find more bottles, and what can we do for them now? And maybe there's not much there's not a whole lot we can do about that. Like, Hey, I read about this great whiskey but you can never get it because you live in Boise, Idaho. I know. Yeah. I mean, I really

53:00 I really want to shake up to happen. And I guess one question I'll point to you back there. Fred is, you know, we talked about these attorney generals, do you think that this is, this is somebody planting that that seed in their head like this has got to be a lobbyist that's happening for the distribution system? Or maybe some of the major manufacturers out there that they're they're planting the seed in their head, and they're kind of distracting them from really what they're, they're putting forth their agenda, not maybe the agenda of, of the people that are actually the consumers, they really care about this. Yeah. And there was also there was an op ed in the local courier journal

53:41 that was published on repeal day from a distributor here that said,

53:47 happy reptil they think a distributor So you started to see like, some like and he had a whole lot better about why distributors are important and they help you. Basically they age gate, make sure alcohol doesn't get in the hands.

54:00 of kids and stuff. And I'm glad they put it in a newspaper. Yeah.

54:06 So only like 10 people are going to read it. Fantastic. Hey, now, come on now, don't be hitting up newspapers where I got my start.

54:15 But you know, so you're seeing you very much singing offensive, whether it's a coordinated thing. I mean, I can't tell you that. But I do know that. These are some of the same efforts. That kind of took down a lot of the tobacco industry in the 90s. Meanwhile, while you have this going on, you also have you have this entirely you have a new group coming out saying like, drinking is bad. Advertising alcohol is bad. And so you have a growing movement of kind of like these consumer protectionist groups that are trying to ban things like advertising, they want to you know, we're just now seeing it on like YouTube, they're wanting to like rip down a lot of

54:56 alcohol related things and social media.

55:00 And so this is also a case of like, a lot of the things that affect our lives are not government related. They're they're company related that we have really, you know, we're really connected in. And so like, if Facebook makes a policy and says no more alcohol sites that in no way is violation of anything and the government, that's Facebook making a decision, and they could do it. So I guess, if you if you're a senator, and you listen, this podcast or your congressman, you want us to kind of you know, we'll we'll have we'll have the team go there. And we'll we'll get in front of Congress will talk about the real issues here. So make sure that so here's here's the thing is that congressman Yarmuth would be very, very open to having a discussion with us. Mayor Fischer, I know his yard I'll talk to him about

55:53 but I mean, these are these are people who really, really would stand up for it, you know, and what you know

56:00 Because it impacts our state. Yep. I agree. You know, and for me, I've said it before being in tech, being able to see the transition of industries that just get disrupted because they rest on their laurels or they tried to defend everything. You know, don't be a Kodak Don't be a blockbuster Don't be one of these companies that just tries to try to maintain the status quo. And when you've got people and you've got companies that are out there that are figuring out ways that they can get around this, they can get around the distribution system, they can ship across states, they can do these things. all it's going to do is have a bigger trickle effect later on, and more people are going to catch on to it. I mean, you know, we're all good friends with Blake over at seal box and I think he's done an amazing job of how he has grown and matured the business a lot more in 2019 to the point where it's, it's running like a very well oiled machine now. And we talked to a lot of companies

57:00 And they're like, how do you do it? Like, what do you do? I'm like, oh, like we knew this, like early on, like we weren't able to get to all 50 states. So we looked at Blake and he can get to more states than we could ever even try to do it the, you know, filing paperwork and waiting for things to come through and opening distribution and then losing our ass on half the product because we had to pay 25% to somebody else, right? And so now people are like, Oh, well, that's how you did it. So now like we're giving Blake a lot more business because a lot of people also Now see, this is how they can do it. Right. And I think some of the even the people that are already there and distributed and now he can't actually do it. Because the way that the way the law technically works is that he necessarily can't buy direct from somebody and sell it unless it's already if it's not already distributed with inside of DC. And so you know, you've got other brands that said like, Oh, shit, we were there too early, and now we kind of like lost our percentage that we could have got out of this business model as well. Yeah, it's just you know, it's it's tough because it is alcohol and yes

58:00 We want to say let's open up shipping, let's do a secondary, but there is a lot of things that need to be well thought out and laps and limited. And so like,

58:08 we just need, we just need some way for, like, let's work towards it versus like holding our ground either one way or the other. Like, let's like right, say that shipping, we have to do it all that way, or we have to know it. There's got to be a middle ground that we can make it work. And one of the reasons why you may never see a middle ground is because you have like these large distribution companies, and that would require them working together in some ways, you know, and that

58:36 they may not want that get on a zoom call figure it out. But here's the here's the the truth of the matter is that eventually, someone brings up the will How can you guarantee that a 16 year old kid is not going to get the bottle off of the doorstep or whatever. And they're in it doesn't matter. Like you can have people sign for it. You can have anything. The minute that

59:00 shipped alcohol or something outside of the three tier system gets into a child's hands. And something happens. It's over. I know, you're telling me like you never had a fake ID growing up. That's just it is like, I will not confirm nor.

59:17 But I'm just saying that that is they're all as always the go to argument, always. And they're like, you know, we protect that. And here's the thing is that they do to a small percentage, but let's go to you can go to any college bar, any college bar and you will find like under age people getting served almost all the time. And any high schooler whose cousin, you know, goes and buys them. So those and they made in the parking lot and so here's a way tech guy, let's get a thumbprint on every bottle of alcohol that you have to guarantee that you're an adult or something like that. Yeah, one open

59:56 or it explodes your hand. Yeah, not not that's gonna be a tough one.

1:00:00 Neil and the other thing that we kind of also, as we're talking on the shipping topic, as well, as you know, even Kentucky and the KDA, they fought to get shipping at a lot of the distilleries that are around here where people can go and they can have their stuff they want to be able to ship out but they don't want stuff coming in. That's nominates the as a kind of oxymoron. But I also don't know exactly like, what the the stats of the details of it like how much is it actually us? considering we can only ship to like, six states or something, right? I mean, it's been ridiculously low. Yeah, there, there's only 6% Okay, so it's like, I know, a couple disorders don't even do it because they're like, I'm not gonna waste my time on six states, you know, or have a shipping package send, right? Exactly, have set up all those resources to be able to just fulfill six, you know, states, but I know it's just surprising. Like, I'm kind of confused. Like, on one side, we're embracing, you know, the vintage law and all this stuff, you know, and then on the other side, where, you know, control

1:00:59 limits you

1:01:00 Being in secondary so it's all just like it's it's it's hypocritical Yeah, all of these laws basically they start out in one place someone opposes it and then it gets compromised and something gives up and so that that law where they could be shipped in it seems like all the laws are just geared it's more favorable for the businesses and other consumers like I'm all for like distillers being able to serve more alcohol ship sell more bottles on property, all that. Okay, that's great for them. But what about consumers, you know, who wants to buy across?

1:01:33 There's not a I mean, there's not a you know, if there was it'd be small but there's not a bourbon advocacy out there. us maybe right. And, but we're not I don't I'm not signing checks or sending checks that you know, to gain whatever pass but there's, there's so many there's so many lobby groups in the distilling business, you know, and there's that there's the a DI there's a CSA, there's distilled spirits Council. There's a

1:02:00 presidents forum this Kentucky distillers Association, there's Texas whiskey association with, on and on and on, and on and on. And they all tell their story and get what they want, try to get what they want. And,

1:02:12 you know, it's not necessarily always what the consumer wants. Yep, absolutely. So as we start rounding this out, you know, there's, there's one thing that I want us to do is like, what is your big prediction for 2020? Right? And I know, and I'll go first, and I'll kind of kind of set the ground and you can kind of pick what you want. And it could be it could be anything, it could be anything that you kind of see with inside of whiskey or bourbon or yourself or I don't know, whatever you want it to. But for me, you know, one of the big things that happened this year, we were a part of it being able to be on stage or you know, being at bourbon and beyond being able to see the main winkles talk about the takedown and secondary market, you know, the secondary markets, a part of the culture. It's a part of the bourbon culture, and I don't want to talk about it all the time, but it's definitely a part of what it is. You know, there was one big sweep were group

1:03:00 kind of disappeared overnight. But in my opinion, that might be over. And I would venture to see that we will see the rise of a large secondary group once again in 2020. Are you the admin guy? I am not the admin, I do not have that much free time in my life and I don't want to be. I don't want to be that. Imagine the hate you get as a secondary market admin. Oh, gosh, yeah. All the work for zero pain. No, thank you. That doesn't sound good to me. But I mean, we were already kind of seeing it. There's there's groups already that are creeping on to eight 910 thousand people. So hitting hitting 2550 probably might not be that far of a stretch here in 2020.

1:03:41 Yeah, and I think I like that prediction. What's your prediction for the for the year?

1:03:46 Oh, gosh, what you on the spot there?

1:03:51 I don't know. I've thought about a few things. I think I still think like barrel programs are going to get reduced this year. I think they're going to stop

1:04:01 Cut more single barrel opportunities for people I think

1:04:06 the distillery see them as a headache and as a pain and you know, I'm always surprised I'll leave there and I'm like, they let us do this. Now just yeah, you know, just

1:04:17 go and drink barrel proof whiskey and you know, go see you later, you know, it is still kind of magnificent, you know, it's one of the best things. We've been doing this so long and it's still like you're like a kid going to the candy store? You know, it's just I can't believe we do this. But I don't know, I think I think we'll see reduction them and then you'll see but with that you'll see more product offerings and from the city also think they're reducing outgoing because they're I mean, let's let's face it for a while, like four roses had mean they're doing two barrels every single day like they've got to run an age doc at some point. Do you think it's an H doc issue? Do you think it's really just like a like an overhead issue? I think I think it's

1:05:00 A resource issue I think they have the stock I think they want us to use the stock further because we're consumers of those brands already as a single barrel buyer and so I just think they want to continue to grow the market and use that juice to help keep growing new new consumers because it's a pain that is for us to come here and you know, individually bottle all these and yeah, I just I think there want to continue to grow that new consumer base. Now here's a question you to have started to a little private barrels yourself right for the pursuit series. Can you all see yourself giving up some of your honey barrels for for private barrel pics? We've already started we've already started it. We've done a few already. And you know, like I said for us we do it at it's very small, very boutique kind of way. So you're selecting stuff that we have already pre sent me it's just like every other distillery right you go there. There's a tasting panel that's already selected the barrels. We've already selected the barrels. Now you finer grain

1:06:00 and fine tune into that barrel. But again, we're we have a we have a smaller amount of inventory but we do it on a come as come as you know as needed basis. Yeah. So here's my prediction for 2020 I think you're going to see about 10 celebrities coming to come into American whiskey. We saw a little trickle of them this year.

1:06:20 I know of many who are coming in are asking around and looking. And that's why I started a the best celebrity whiskey category for my awards as because I want to be able to say I want I want people to come in if they're going to I think it's great. The celebrities are coming first of all, because that brings more awareness to everything. But I want to make sure that not just the spokespeople, but as as brand owners, yes, owners like majority in some cases. And the thing is, is they want to get involved. They want to pick the whiskey and I want to reward that. You know, I want to reward celebrities who are getting themselves

1:07:00 involve like a clown from Slipknot you know probably one of the top five bands in the in the world right now their, their their new album

1:07:10 was the first like hard rock album to be number one it like took off in it and it took down Old Town road or whatever. And my kids love that song.

1:07:24 But so he blended that whiskey, he blended it. And I'm sure he's not going around saying I'm a master blender and or any of that crap, but I just think it's really cool that you see someone at that level, getting their hands dirty a little bit. And the same with Matthew McConaughey. Like we, we see his, you know, kind of creative side. He's very, very involved there and all that but he legitimately participated in the creation of that whiskey. And I think that should be rewarded in some way but so in the next

1:08:00 year do you think people take a brand like that? More? They'll take it more seriously or they scoff at it because our people are people will always scoff at it. Yeah. For sure. And and even to an extent all three of us will. But, and but I mean, it kind of goes I totally agree with you, but I think it was, it was I think Kroger had a release of that Slipknot whiskey and they only had I don't know had only a couple hundred bottles or something like that. And they said like 2000 people showed up right for a signing day like 2000 people here just in level I mean, credible Yeah, really, right. I mean, and that's that kind of just shows you the power of what these people can drive to this particular category. And I did I had a stage appearance with them at louder than life. And you know, I had probably, you know, in the in that big bourbon bar area and out I probably had about 4000 people just sitting there listening to me interview clown

1:08:58 and so yes

1:09:00 Those people bring an audience to bourbon that we don't get otherwise. And here's the thing is like we are, we are we have this podcast, I have a magazine I've got I got other things and like we, we, we want to educate people. We don't want people just kicking back and drink and and if people can if these, these celebrities can bring like consumers that would be going to vodka or tequila otherwise, and we can have an opportunity to like educate them. I'm all for that. I think that's great. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think if we get more people that are even listen to this podcast, even better works out for me. So with that, I think that's gonna wrap up our last show of 2019 our predictions for 2020. So fellas, thank you again for coming on. Yeah, I mean, it was it was fantastic. When we covered a lot of ground. Some best whiskies? I mean, did you have a best whiskey of 2019? I hope we do. We actually said, I haven't. You know, the first thing that pops in my mind is probably

1:09:59 probably owed for

1:10:00 birthday party and this year it was so good I'm not usually a scarf a birthday where I'm like why do people care about it? Yeah No but this year it was pretty damn good like so I'm just my first reaction yeah and one of mine for myself is that it's it's one that's consistently been pretty mediocre for years and this year it just rose I really liked it and it fit that you know we were talking about earlier fit that profile that you kind of want just have this like buttery caramel texture. And I'm not even able to get a bottle of but it was this year's Eagle rare 17 for the media samples.

1:10:37 And chocolate sexy velvety I was highly impressed with it even though I'll never see a bottle get a bottle of it. I was very highly impressed with it. And then I think part of the everyday category you already said kind of old force awry. I'm gonna go for as a small batch select. I still think it was fantastic, great entrance to this year. All right. With that I want to say guys, thank you again for coming on the show again today. It was great to have everybody here. We're going to start going

1:11:00 Nothing, I get a syllabus agenda. I know now we have to really work. Yeah. Just to bring you more great content in 2020. Actually, Ryan and I are about to get yelled at. Yeah, I

1:11:11 can't wait for this hazing session. Pray for them. All right. Cheers, everybody. We'll see you all next week. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: 1792 Aged Twelve Years

Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:30:48 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1syGA8W4pe8&w=560&h=315]On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review 1792 Aged Twelve Years. This 12 year old bourbon is 96.6 proof and $50 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

DISCLAIMER: A sample of this whiskey was provide to us by a member of our Patreon community. We were not compensated by the spirit producer for this review. This is our honest opinion based on what we tasted. Please drink responsibly.

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232 - A Better Drinking Culture with Brown-Forman and the KDA

Thu, 19 Dec 2019 10:30:16 GMT

Brown-Forman and the Kentucky Distillers' Association are two organizations focused on growing bourbon both domestically and internationally. Taylor Amerman and Ali Mize represent these brands to balance the scales by focusing on ways to promote a better drinking culture. This means awareness of moderation, being inclusive of those who don’t drink, and how more ID checking systems are being installed at distilleries across the state. As we go into the holiday season, please remember to be safe and drink responsibly.

Show Partners:

In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

Worst Old Fashioned: https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/drinks/a30172952/viral-old-fashioned-cocktail-video-jim-beam-redo/
The Craft Beverage Modernization and Tax Reform Act: SpirtsUnited.org, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/16/business/economy/craft-distilling-liquor-tax.html
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about control states.
How did you get into bourbon?
How did you end up in this position? Tell us about your background.
Talk about bourbon and the environment.
What are the responsibilities of your position?
What's Intellicheck?
Does it track which distilleries you visit?
Any concern about upsetting consumers?
Tell us about what you all are doing with mocktails.
What did you do with mocktails at Derby?
What is on the event checklist?
How do you promote social responsibility in marketing?
What's next to lobby for?
Tell us about ride sharing.
What do you want the listeners to takeaway?
For more information on responsibility efforts, visit brown-forman.com/responsibility and kybourbontrail.com/responsibility.

0:00 We encourage you when you get home to check with your local DMV to make sure that this idea is real. We'd love to have you on the tour today but you will not be participating in the tasting.

0:09 Well, at least they can go and see everything. Absolutely. Just like Jimmy John's the smells are free.

0:13 Yeah, exactly. Just like Jimmy John's.

0:28 What's going on everybody? It is Episode 232 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny and we've got just a little bit of news to go through. And I think by now everyone has seen the viral sensation of the girl who made probably the worst old fashion of all time. It was originally shot in 2010 by mahalo calm, it had muddled cherries and oranges, a whole pint of Jim Beam bourbon. I mean, it was bad. But now Janae Nyberg, the actress on that video has made a reappearance. The folks over at Jim Beam tracked her down and gave her a shot at redemption. In an esquire.com article they talked about how the video started and what she's up to now, beam gave her a second shot and she nailed this time making the perfect old fashioned. You can watch the original and the new video with the link to esquire.com. In our show notes, the craft beverage modernization and Tax Reform Act is a tax cut for thousands of small distilleries, breweries and wineries across America. And they take that tax cut to reinvest it back into the distillery to continue to grow it. And it was a steep cut in the federal excise tax on alcoholic beverages. And Congress passed this at the end of 2017 as a part of the tax cuts and JOBS Act, and it is now set to expire on December 31. And legislators have until Friday to extend it if they don't distilleries will face a 400% tax increase with the first payment for money due on January 15. This as the craft beverage producers scrambling with Thought of potential employee layoffs or even worse, maybe even closing their doors. You can read the article posted by clay rising on the New York Times with a link in our show notes. And you can also go to spirits united.com to sign a petition and help make a difference today. Once again spirits united.com heaven Hill is coming out strong with two new releases soon. We talked about larceny barrel proof before and that will start hitting the shelves in January of 2020 with a price point of $50 SRP and then you have old Fitzgerald fall 2019 released that will be the highest age release of this particular expression at 15 years old. And the suggested retail price on that one is $150. And you've heard it from rackhouse whiskey club in the middle of the podcast, but Bardstown bourbon company will be releasing their prisoner collaboration in 13 states starting in 2020. The prison or wine collaboration begins with a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that the Bardstown bourbon company Finished for 18 months in the prisoner French oak red wine barrels, the resulting whiskey is bottled at 100 proof and the collaboration will be available in January 2020 with a suggested retail price of around $125. Now, we've never done a podcast like this before, but we want to highlight everything that's happening in our world of bourbon. Taylor, a member in an ali Mize come from two different organizations, both focused on growing bourbon both domestically and internationally. Brown Forman and the Kentucky distillers Association are balancing the scales by focusing on ways to promote a better drinking culture. That means teaching moderation being inclusive of those who don't drink and how more ID checking systems are being put in place at distilleries across the state. It's really some things that I even found out that were new that were happening as well. So you end up finding some some pretty unique things here. And as we go into this holiday season, please remember, be safe and drink responsibly. All right, let's kick off the podcast. Here's Joe from barrel craft spirits. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char it's Joe from barrell bourbon.

4:08 In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day My team and I source and blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle strength. Use the store locator on barrell bourbon com.

4:22 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Twitter from it's just Raleigh. It's just Raleigh asked state run systems, North Carolina versus private Kentucky, Florida, etc. He's basically getting to the question of what is the difference between the state run systems like where you have state run Liquor Control boards or monopolies, if you will, and the private states that allow liquor stores to come in and be privatized and you know, individuals or corporations can

5:01 can sell alcohol in a in respective package store. And I'll tell you I'm kind of mixed on this because you get really good data about sales and, and who's getting what in the control state. So like every year, Pennsylvania, while it is mired with its own problems, they released the number of bottles of Pappy and Buffalo Trace antique collection that they get. And that's something that I would love to see broken out from the liquor store side. Now with that said, they all have these very unique laws, a lot of them have price control, and that they will not mark up whiskey above the SRP. That's something you certainly don't see in the private states, which is why you see something like, Well, our 12 year old or Elmer t leiby, five $600 when that's far, far above the the SRP. Now one thing that I'm starting to hear about control states is that they are cracking Down on private barrels. So this is something I'm still looking into. And if you're having some problems with this, you know, please feel free to reach out to me as I, you know, further investigate it. But what's happening is some of these control states are looking at bourbon clubs as competition to their own single barrel programs. And so they're starting to put restrictions and, and rules on clubs that you don't see in private states. And I don't think I like that very much. But at the end of the day, the entire system of selling alcohol is beyond broken. I mean, we're still dealing with laws that were established for the most part in the 1930s. You're only just now peeling away. You know, a lot of these blue laws in some states. So for the past decade, the lawmakers and a lot in places like Alabama, Texas and Kentucky have done a very good job of getting Getting rid of a lot of stupid laws, but the fact is, many of them are still there. And it probably won't be in my lifetime, but at some point, we will have a more cohesive alcohol system. But again, it won't be in my lifetime. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you want to be like, it's just Raleigh, hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred minich that's at Fred MiniK Until next week, cheers Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Can you here today riding solo but talking about a topic that we typically would never have thought of, you know, we're all about brands, Master distillers distilling techniques, social, the culture of of of bourbon and stuff like that. But there is there is one aspect of it I think that gets overlooked and that is, knowing your limits knowing when not to drive you get to know these these types of things of me. Making sure that you are being a good citizen, a good consumer of the brown water at the end of the day. And this was really kind of a topic that really kind of came out of out of the blue for me, I actually had an opportunity to meet one of our guests today at a dinner that was actually sponsored by the University of Kentucky. And then from there, we just started talking, I had no idea that this department these positions even existed inside of these, these corporations, and that even the Kentucky distillers Association had people that were dedicated to this as well. So it's going to be something that I found super interesting. And I think you're going to find it interesting as well, because there's just there's a lot of things that happen with inside the bourbon world. And a lot of times that we want to make sure that we're promoting the right things. We talk about what we're drinking all the time. And what we have we have like nine pours is something as we're sitting down and trying a bunch of stuff in a lineup, but we need to make sure that we actually have the capability and wherewithal to kind of know exactly what we're doing after that. So today on the show, I want to be introduce two of our guests. So we have Taylor. Taylor is the global alcohol responsibility manager for brown Forman Corporation. And Alamein, the director of social responsibility for the Kentucky distillers Association. So ladies, welcome to the show. Thank you. Absolutely. So before we kind of dive into this, we kind of want to get understand your backgrounds, kind of like where did you kind of start coming? I usually start the show, talking to people like where did they where did they start really get introduced to bourbon? Do you all have a story where you got introduced to bourbon or something where you got this kind of role like got you into bourbon?

9:35 I would say my experience at Brown Forman got me into bourbon. So I interned for brown Forman while I was attending the University of Kentucky, my junior and senior year and that's where I really got to understand old forester and Woodford Reserve.

9:50 But you Allie

9:51 Taylor Taylor, bourbon I mean bourbon has always been a part of my life as a little million and a Kentucky and but I had spent some time working in Belgium after college. and came back to the oval and really had never been legal drinking age adult in this in this city. And so I met Taylor through some networking and she introduced me to her work at Brown Forman. And when I went to go get my MBA, she really helped me understand what this field of corporate responsibility was all about. I wrote my capstone with the company and on the production of bourbon barrel beer and Western Europe, actually, and then came back worked at yum brands for a little bit on their sustainability team. And when this role opened up, Taylor and her old boss Rob really helped champion me into the role so I have a lot of my bourbon history to think, or that Taylor to think that

10:36 Yeah, I've got to say we've pushed we all set the stage as well as you two are also very, very good friends outside of work. Yes, that here like bridesmaids and everything like that. That's going on around here to full disclosure, full disclosure. Yeah. So there might be some collusion involved at the same exact time, right? It's true. So I guess, since Taylor, you kind of had the the kind of started the path to here. So, what kind of got you into this and you know, you mentioned like interning here, what was that intern position and then what led that into this sort of full time position as as that internship ended.

11:13 So in full disclosure, I have an accounting degree for my undergrad, but then moved abroad and got my first masters in corporate social responsibility from the University of Nottingham and England, where companies are really focused on broader societal needs, whether it be around the environment or social issues. So after I graduated, I came back to brown Forman, leading some of our environmental sustainability work, but over the last four years leading alcohol responsibility and what that means here at Brown Forman, we'll kind of talk

11:44 a little about the environmental thing because I think that's also like a unique aspect of what happens in regards of bourbon production. Everybody kind of wants to understand like, Is there a carbon footprint with bourbon? Is there a way we have to worry about sustainability with wood and barrel And Cooper, James and all that kind of stuff kind of talk a little about that background.

12:03 Absolutely. So that is all housed in our production operations right to reduce water energy, efficiencies, how, where our grains and come from the wood that we saw, right? But then also how can we tell those stories to consumers and key buyers and retailers that are also interested in environmental sustainability. So corporate responsibility as a whole is environment diversity and inclusion, community relations and alcohol responsibility. So it's like who we are as a company, and it's not new. We've been doing this since day one at Brown Forman right we were the first company to have a sealed bottle of whiskey for safety and concern of the consumer and everybody listens to the backstory with with Jackie as I can. On our past episodes, we talked about the old forester brand and really how that really pioneered a lot of the exactly what you're talking about there. So Ali, I kind of want to get a little bit of your Background because you were doing some of this at Yama as well, in regards of social responsibility yamas bulleit. Understand it's it's KFC and Taco Bell. So kind of talk about how you're making tacos a better place in the world.

13:12 Yeah, well, we were really hoping to transition yums shareholder base into longer term shareholders that really understood the value of social responsibility and environmental sustainability. Because at the time when I was there, they had an activist investor on board, and their ratings in the social and environmental spaces were kind of low. And so how could we kind of educate investors about what the company was doing proactively and to reduce waste in their supply chain to improve human rights concerns and those kinds of things and ultimately increase their share price. But what I do for the Kentucky distillers association is a little bit different and that my main focus is really around Governmental Affairs and making sure that our distillers are proactive in their responsible retailing efforts so that we can continue to go to To the Kentucky legislature and make asks like for the ability for people to ship their bourbon home when they visit a distilleries, Visitor Center, the ability to enjoy a cocktail. When you go to a distillery, I think a lot of people forget that wasn't a privilege before 2016 in the state of Kentucky. So we really proactively use our responsibility efforts on the lobbying and advocacy side as well.

14:21 Yeah, I mean, we will definitely get into that because I know that I've seen it on the bourbon trail. Now you go in somewhere. And there's there's a lot of license scanners that are placed everywhere. So we'll talk until a check. Oh, gosh, all right. Now we're, let's let's not give away all the secrets, people figure out how to hack it right. Now, we won't find about that, but we'll hit on that here in a little bit. So, you know, I guess, Taylor, I kind of want to kind of come back to you here a little bit, you know, coming to this into this particular role. What were what were some of the really the guidelines or what were the some of the things that were really in the job description about what you're supposed to be promoting at Brown Forman?

14:58 Absolutely. So this job was given to And so I was like, What in the world is

15:02 that they like they made the position for you when you came in kind of thing.

15:05 So it we've had this position probably about 15 years, and I'm the third person to have this type of for all. Specifically, again, the work has been happening for a longer time, but to have a dedicated resource to this. But we also need to define what that means. And it's more than Please drink responsibly, right. Okay, that's a legal compliance line. So we had to define that. It's in within Corporate affairs. So I support all of our brands, all of our markets and all of our employees around the world.

15:34 And that's a lot because brown Forman is not a small company. It's

15:37 not a small company, almost 5000 employees globally, and we believe it has to start with us, right if our vision is to create a responsible drinking culture, it has to start with our internal culture here at Brown Forman so our employees understand what those behaviors and expectations that if they do choose to drink, it is in moderation, but we also respect the choice not to drink here as well. 30 30% of Americans don't drink alcohol. And that is adults doesn't include the kids. So it's 30% of adults don't drink alcohol. But again, it's within Corporate affairs. So for us alcohol responsibility is across a variety of topics. So not surprising is preventing under age access and consumption, just like we mentioned with ID scanners, preventing drunk driving. So our partnerships with lift and Uber and taxi companies, but a few that make us bit different are supporting addiction recovery. We do a lot that addresses sexual assault and harassment in respecting the choice not to drink. Wow.

16:38 Okay, we're going to touch on each one of those a little bit, because I'm a big fan of Uber. So we kind of want to start here talking with Allie first because you know, as you were kind of saying that when we before we started recording here that Ali's role is sort of like an umbrella across a lot of Kentucky and bourbon and stuff like that. So Allie, kind of kind of give us an idea of like, what the job description is and Sort of what you all are doing, and putting measures in place to make sure that people are trying to do a lot more socially responsible actions.

17:08 Sure. Well, I've learned a lot from Taylor and brown Forman. And so a lot of my job at the Kentucky distillers association is taking best practices from companies like brown Forman and beam, Sentry and biagio that are kind of leading in this space, and raise up the next generation of micro distillers to have the same practices. And so we're all about collective responsibility. And I think that that comes through in a few different ways. One is establishing best practices so that distillers know practically what it means to embed alcohol responsibility into their day to day operations, whether that be manufacturing, marketing, tourism, any event. And so we have a series of very simple checklists about what things you can do in your ticketing in your gift shop in your tour, talking points to incorporate those aspects. And then we build data driven partnerships to kind of bring those best practices to Life. So partnering with Intel attracts age ID solution to make sure that tour operators have a chance to scan IDs authenticate that they are real and prevent under age access to alcohol. And we've caught over 500 fake IDs at distilleries since that program was implemented. So it's super practical, or we work a lot with the mocktail project to increase non alcoholic drink menus across the state. And so helping get our distilleries involved in that program, particularly through a campaign we run each October called mock October. And that's really used as a period after bourbon Heritage Month whenever anyone is kind of worn out. Say, let's take it take the weekend. Relax, we need a break. Oh, yeah, and learn what options exist in terms of zero proof cocktails. And we work with better drinking culture on an auditing program that holds our distilleries accountable to the best practices. So they have if they want an outside consultant, kind of figure to come in and really check and say, here are the ones you're upholding. Here's some areas where you're struggling. We have some resources to help you with that, that partnerships in place. And then we work a lot with lift and other transportation providers, like mint julep tours are in our limo to really make sure that people don't make the choice to drink and drive. So partnerships. And then I would say the last aspect is really raising awareness of the industry's commitment and actual programming amongst legislators, tourism partners, and the consumers and making sure that we get that story across. So best practices, partnerships, awareness, raising media campaigns.

19:33 So let's let's dive into some of these a little bit a little bit deeper here, because you talked about some good points. And I actually, this is a very recent memory, your mind going to four roses and actually doing a barrel pick. They said, Hey, we need everybody's IDs. And we're like, we didn't do this six months ago with we talking about and yeah, so Mandy was there, she scanned all of our IDs and make sure everybody's, you know, over 21 I guess. So first off, it's really cool to see that intelligence is working. I think it's very ballsy if somebody that's under 21 to go into this Hillary and try buy a bottle. I mean, you would think that that would be something that we are all under 21 at some point, but you do you think they'd be like, yeah, I'll just go like the corner store the corner mark, I'm not going to go to a gift shop to go do something like

20:11 this. They just want the experience with their friends, though, if you think about it, they're not always trying to buy the bottle. Sometimes they're trying to get on the tour and have the tasting and have that experience with their friends. So I think that's where we see it more so than in the gift shops with bottle purchases. But you're right, it is surprising that there have been over 500 fake IDs caught on the bourbon trail. I think it's really educated, the distilleries and the industry to that, hey, this is such a necessary tool. You know, it started with just a few distilleries adopting it and bringing it to the attention of the group. This was an option and something that we should pursue as an industry. And what we did was really work with three different ID authentication providers to test the state's best fake ID so we partnered with Alcohol Beverage Control, got their best fakes and really check them on all the different systems and intelligent every time hands down came up with The best system. And so, over time, we've had more and more distilleries come on board to the point where there are 28 distilleries across the state using this technology. And it's great because it sends a consistent message, right? It's not one distillery, doing it over here, and then the next place doesn't do it. And all of a sudden, someone gets angry that they were asked for it at the other location. It's really about providing a consistent consumer experience along the Kentucky bourbon trail and craft tour. And so a lot of other cool things to note are that we have global ABC enforcement officers using the same ID checking technology, when they're going to do their spot checks at Louisville retailers, when they're going to your corner liquor store to make sure they're not serving minors. And they know that store has an issue. They're showing them the technology that Kentucky distilleries use and recommending that that person adopted so that's a really cool case study of where industry has actually influenced government and regulation. And, and I think we're really excited about it. If you were at forecastle, about two weeks ago, you'd also notice that all of their We're serving stations using teletrac, as well. So it's definitely a resource that we promote to our partners across the state.

22:06 Oh, it's good. I'm glad to see the technologies working in the favor for for this as well. I'm assuming that if somebody does scan a fake ID, they're not like here go tracking at the next place. They're actually they're probably, they're probably taking it right. So

22:17 it's actually illegal to be in possession of a fake ID in the state of Kentucky, even if you are a distillery, confiscating it from a gas. So generally, the protocol that we train the distillery employees to say is, we've been alerted to a problem with your ID based on our intelligence system. We encourage you when you get home to check with your local DMV to make sure that this ID is real. We'd love to have you on the tour today, but you will not be participating in the tasting.

22:43 Well, at least they can go and see everything. Absolutely. Just like Jimmy Johns the smells are free.

22:47 Yeah, exactly. Just like Jimmy Johns.

22:50 So I kind of want to talk about the intelligence thing a little more because this is something that is is becoming pretty ubiquitous as you are going down the bourbon trail and I think this is also So something that maybe our listeners want to know is, is it tracking you, as you are going to every single distillery? Like is it say like top? Sorry, you've done three today. We're capping you there, like, is there? Is there some sort of tracking mechanism that's involved with it, too?

23:14 Yeah. So that's a really interesting question. And I think that we have the capability to add that functionality in the future. Right now. We're just focused on making sure IDs get scanned, and that no one under age has access to how call

23:27 Ali's your next big brother here.

23:29 Okay. Yeah, that technology does have the ability to store some demographic information, no personal identifying information. So it's not going to store your name, for instance, but it could store that a male who is your age, and from this state visited the distillery on this day and time and so what that does, especially our craft distilleries, it helps them understand the demographic of their consumers better and if they know that they had a ton of visitors from the state of Michigan, come in in the past. Few months, and they don't have distribution. And then in that state, that's something that they can talk to their distributor about and really pursue. And so it's, again, not storing that personal identifying information. But it is storing demographic things that can really help our guys on the business side as well. And so all of a sudden, you have this responsibility tool that has become a great marketing tool as well. The last thing I'll say about the storing of information, besides the fact that this is really an encrypted technology that has passed through the legal teams of brown Forman, and all the other big companies within our membership is that it does have the capability to do exclusive groups that can be controlled by the managers at the visitor centers. So an example of a group that we have set up that is not currently in use, but could be in the future is banned and intoxicated. So let's talk about the difference between those intoxicated means that you would be flagged here it would be flagged for 24 hours in the system, and then banned means that you wouldn't you be marked forever along the trail. And so while by

25:03 the KDA that's

25:04 Yeah, that's basically that's what it could become. But it is really intended if you're intoxicated and all these distilleries are sharing the same technology. If you go to Evan Williams, and you show up and you're highly intoxicated already, they can flag that idea that when you go down the road to Victor's and your idea scans using the same technology, it's going to pop up with a note and say, Hey, this person was flagged as being intoxicated, maybe think twice before serving them. So again, the technology is never giving a mandate around how to treat that person and their identification. It is helping guide the distillery employee and making smart choices and protecting the consumer which is what the technology is all about. And I think the last thing I want to add because I remembered it coming back to your point about four roses scanning every ID is that's been the most interesting trend for me to watch is I think the perception in Kentucky. A I'm clearly above 21. And how dare you ask for my ID. But we really in the alcohol industry view drinking is a privilege, right? I mean, it is an honor to be able to go into these distilleries and obtain their product and it can cause impairment. And you go out to a state like Oregon, Portland, Oregon, you go out to distilleries or wineries out there, and they do check your ID every time. And so how do we create this mentality shift that says, alcohol is a privilege, not a right and when you consume you need to consume responsibly, otherwise, that privilege can be taken away?

26:34 Because that's how society views it. Right? Absolutely.

26:36 Absolutely. And I think you also brought up another point right there, you know, if somebody is flagged and they are going from one place to another Are you are you ever worried that it could create some bad juju that could possibly happen, right? I mean, this somebody that that is under the influence they do and they're like, I got a driver like I'm fine, like let me through like blah blah, blah, like In God forbid, you know, security gets caught like Does that ever kind of like run through your mind of like, what could the potential happen if we do sit there and pick a bunch of drunk people off? If they're trying to do this?

27:10 I think I'm more afraid of the potential of what happens if we don't do anything. Right. And so, I think that as we grow in our responsibility efforts as an industry, and I would say, brown Forman is the most leading at this but I think more and more distillery employees feel comfortable making that gametime decision knowing that their boss has their back that intoxication isn't acceptable. And just because you have a safe ride, doesn't mean you're a responsible drinker, like there are limits and you shouldn't show up to a tour and disrupt other people's experiences just because you made the choice to over consume. And so I feel really confident that intelligence is a tool that empowers our tour guides to make the right choice but they of course are also trained to provide a hospitable experience and they are never going to publicly admonish someone Or make them feel embarrassed. It's all about having the wherewithal on how to deal and intervene in those situations. Hey, can I get you a glass of water? Before you go on your tour? You look like you've had a long day. Come Tell me about your experiences along the trail, you know, how do we equip them with the right tools and skill sets to be able to handle this awkward situation?

28:20 Hopefully didn't get too awkward, not a hand in so I guess you also brought up something about mocktails. And I think that's something we've we've touched on the podcast before of looking at New York Times articles saying like mocktails, or the new craze, like the, you know, alcohol free bars, you know, so kind of talk about what the the distilleries and what KDA is trying to do of getting into this sort of mocktail category as well.

28:46 Yeah, I can talk about it overall, but I'm really excited for you to talk to Taylor because brown Forman has definitely taken the lead on this including serving the first official mocktail at Derby. So, um, you will definitely Oh yeah, we're gonna go there, but I'm the monitor. Nothing really happened kind of organically to be totally honest. I mean, we have always held a tremendous respect for the choice not to drink in Kentucky and along the bourbon trail that's really important that no one feels that pressure when they come to a very bourbon saturated economy and state right. And but the way that that happened was we were at a local art festival and met a gentleman by the name of Jesse Hawkins, who himself has made the choice not to drink has been sober for a few years now. And he had started a movement back in 2016, called the mocktail project. And when Taylor and I encountered counter Jesse for the first time, he was still very, very grassroots. And which was exciting because we were still figuring out what it looked like to tangibly communicate about this respect. And for the choice not to drink too. And so Jesse really started sharing his story with our distilleries, we gave him a grant to really grow the mocktail project and take these kids to bars and restaurants and say, Are you willing to add a mocktail to Your menu, put a sticker on your front door that indicates that you have that option available so that people who choose not to drink whether they are in recovery, or maybe you're just an expecting mom, or maybe you plan to stay out for five hours this Friday night, and you just know that you'll be on the floor. If you drink bourbon the whole time, and you want something to help you pace. There are so many reasons. But that sticker and that emblem would help people identify the establishments that cared about protecting their health. And so he's really grown that. And over time, we've seen more distilleries get involved and take it their own direction like brown Forman. And I think the one month, like I said earlier that we all get involved is October, and that is generally the second or third week in October, where all the distilleries come together serve these amazing zero proof mocktails. We hold a lot of cool events. This year, we're going to have a sons alcohol pop up bar at butcher town groceries Lola at ostra. some really cool restaurants and mythology involved and we're also taking it a step further on this. Addiction Recovery side too. So this year the official mocktails one will be named after Jesse. But one will be named after a woman at Volunteers of America mid states Freedom House program. And so every one Wednesday a month every month, Volunteers of America brings in local chefs for a chop and chat at their Freedom House Recovery Center for Women who may be expecting children during the recovery process, and they teach them healthy cooking healthy living skills. Well, what about how the drinking skills after you get out of recovery, you're still going to be in social settings like parties where alcohol may be present. And so this year, we thought it was really important to teach them how to mix their own mocktails for those party situations. So ostra is going to be going in with a mocktail project teaching these women how to make cocktails, and they're going to make their own and the winning recipe will be named after the woman and it will be the one we promote during the October campaign so that there's a more human element to why we serve mocktails at the distillery And in bars and restaurants because I think that's what we miss. I mean, everyone knows what a mocktail is. But I think the more impactful thing is, why it's important to include it and why we need to be thoughtful about how we make people feel included, right? We talked about diversity and inclusion and all sorts of industries all the time. What does diversity and inclusion look like in the bourbon industry? From all aspects not just black, white, male, female, but our drinking habits too?

32:24 I gotcha. Yeah, that's good. And by the way, I love OSHA. It's one of my favorite restaurants here in town. Go to I love the churros for dessert. We'll talk about that afterwards. But so Taylor I know we we an alley wouldn't go alleys alleys hog a lot of the air. She's killing it. So So kind of talk about really what brown Forman is doing in this this mocktail category.

32:43 Absolutely. So you know we are deeply committed to it. We have employees who choose not to drink we have board members. We have consumers and business partners that choose not to drink for a variety of reasons. In addition, health and wellness trends right now. And it is invisible. You may not be able to Tell that so we talked about little things. Don't ask why someone's choosing not to drink, right? It should be an invitation I can offer you. But it shouldn't be an expectation to be part of the social setting it. If you are choosing not to drink, you still want to go learn about the history of bourbon, you still want to enjoy our amazing restaurants that we have here in town. So everyone should be welcome. for that. We started an employee resource group. So just like other dimensions of diversity, and ours is called spirit. And it is to respect the choice not to drink. So raise awareness. You know, we have a cafe here on campus, and before spirit, they would cook with alcohol in the food in the desert, but it may not be clearly labeled. And if I accidentally have some cake with bourbon, okay, that's a you know, not a big deal. But if someone in recovery does, that is a really big deal when they weren't expecting that and that can be harmful to them. So just raising awareness, what are those issues that we can change and make a difference? And again, welcome them to brown Forman as employees and guests

34:02 to talk about what you were doing during Derby

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35:45 Yeah, so we are proud to be the official bourbon of the Kentucky Derby with Woodford Reserve and old Forester, and that's wonderful to have those products they are and it's a Kentucky moment for all Kentuckians. But if you are one of those 30% who choose not to drink, you also want something in your hand, that is more than a Diet Coke or a bottle of water. Right? So how can we provide an elevated experience that everyone can shares during my old Kentucky home? So this year we worked with churchill downs and Jesse that alley mentioned with the mocktail project to serve the first official Kentucky Derby mocktail. So Jesse was on site serving

36:20 that what did it consist of? Do you remember?

36:22 Yeah, I think it was lemonade and cranberry.

36:25 Yeah. That's great. That's that's a pretty easy ratio. I mean, because I've seen you know, when they talk about these cocktail bars, you're talking like drinks of upwards of like 810 $12 for stuff and there's there's no spirit in it. So it's like, they must help they're like fresh pressing carrots back there something to make this really like go into it.

36:42 Well, we do talk about it's high margin for accounts. And that should be another reason that they have them on their menu. So not only for being inclusive, and show their values but it's good for business as well.

36:53 I'll see There you go. We know that

36:55 and Taylor's being modest and that

36:58 I know you need to talk untalked Very good. They send Jesse all over the place to all these different industry events like whiskey fast and all these things that where he's really influencing trends because he's in involved in industry conversations with the brown Forman backing and so you should feel, I mean, not a big deal that you have whiskey fest with the mocktail project. I mean, let's talk about that.

37:21 Totally. So the four that were around the country, Jesse went and served mocktails so many people came up to him just to take a break, they might have been pregnant. And it was such a relief because frankly, we find that a lot of non drinkers won't show up. Right? I don't even want to go there. I'm not going to be there. I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to get asked why 100 times I'm not going so he provides a safe alternative that looks beautiful. It's in the same glassware that everyone else does. It just helps them fit in. We also had him at forecastle with old forester I should have mentioned Of course with Derby. That drink was in partnership with Jackie's I can't have old forester and so they promoted it together. We've had him at taste of Derby. My goodness, we are doing a big partnership with him in New Hampshire this year as well with the New Hampshire liquor commission, so he is great. He helps put a real authentic voice behind this to explain why but it's that mocktails and cocktails can coexist. It shouldn't be either or, or you're cool or you're not cool. We're all enjoying it. We're all spending time together and connecting.

38:26 Yeah, I think the one thing that I'm really kind of taking away from this and anally kind of said it best is that this isn't supposed to be like, a line in the sand, right? It's not supposed to divide people and say, like, hey, like, you're over there, we're over here. We don't need to talk to each other. Right? And that it's it's more of a why thing. If If you want to try to party all day and nine, you you know, you're not going to be able to write it's just it's impossible sometimes, especially when you're trying to do bourbon for that time. It's just impossible. And so you can look at some of these as an alternative to like, you know, you don't have to sit there and and be miserable if you don't want to try to do that. Right, you've got to learn to be able to know your limits. And this is something that, you know, it's could be a refresher at the end of it too, right? I mean, I love smoothies, right? I'm sure. I'm sure it's it's got some kind of similarity to the tastes and fruit notes and everything like that along with it as well.

39:16 Yeah, I have a few thoughts on that. I mean, one is that we hear industry and place say that all the time, like I've had for work events every night this week, you know, I'm so excited that there's an option where I can still look like I'm participating and engaging and slow down. But one of the nuances that I've learned from Taylor is that recovery is something to be celebrated. And it's hard to feel celebrate. It's not, it's not something to be like, Oh, I'm so sorry. You're going through that or, oh, gosh, how hard it's no congratulations on your sobriety. And I think that's something that we forget. And it's hard to celebrate. If you don't have awesome drink options, right? Like, congratulations, we're so glad you're here. Here's your soda water. Like that's not a good way to help celebrate. And so I think that's another Important nuance to discuss to. There was one other thing I was gonna say. But you all just have in common I forget my last thought was,

40:07 well, events are so important, right? So always we have a responsible event checklist that we promote for brown Forman events you do for KDA events.

40:14 What's on the checklist? Let's go Let's go some let's start checking these off

40:18 check IDs, right, we'll go with that one providing free water and hopefully it's infused and something nice

40:25 mocktails numbers are like lemons or something. I gotcha. It's like I feel like I'm in like a hotel lobby. I swear.

40:32 Sometimes it goes so so fast. That's what you have to continue to refill throughout the night. non alcoholic beverages, having a point person that you know who to go to, should there be an issue that arises

40:43 like an accountability buddy, is it like, or is it like,

40:47 like, like, Who's the manager?

40:47 Like, there's, there's Gary in the corner. I'm gonna go talk to him like what is what's the point person?

40:52 So should there be an issue or an incident of overconsumption? Who do you go to Who's that the manager is that the bouncer? Who's the person in charge? You don't have to try to figure that out in the middle of a situation you already have a game plan. And then so offering some kind of safe right option. And we can certainly talk about partnerships with lift and Uber. But just to add to, at the end of the day, we want everyone who encounters one of our brands to have a positive experience. We never want them to have so much that they never want to drink it, smell it or buy it again. You know, we found that one of the top three reasons people do not drink whiskey is because they've had that negative experience. Just

41:31 that sounds like it's a most of the time of what we do we talk. Remember what I talked about, again, the show, like, tell me about your first piece of bourbon. I would say 50% of the time when we interview guests, that's the first experience it was a bottle of jack or it was whatever was and they were on the air on the floor for hours. Right and and i think that what you're bringing here is is is a relatively good perception of it of what you actually should be doing right and that you don't want to sit there and say, Oh yeah, I'm not gonna I don't always want to bring this back in. Emory back, right do let's let's try to make a positive engagement out of it.

42:04 Yeah, we don't want any harms to ever happen from alcohol. Right? And so how can what can we do to prevent, to educate to provide those options, but we still need consumers to make those right choices as well. But we're not anti sales, right? We're in the industry. We want to promote these products as being well crafted and something to sip to enjoy to savor it, not to just

42:27 escape. And I think you also bring up a pretty good point of being able to give our listeners this sort of background where they might have significant others that don't share their same passion, right. If they're listening to this. They are the the one percenters of bourbon right there. They're the bourbon nerds that are Yeah, we appreciate it. Yeah. And so and they're in now that if their significant other, they don't have to feel so bad, right, that you all are actually trying to create a different kind of culture. That's just not all whiskey. Right? That it's beyond that.

42:58 Yeah, since you're talking about kids for a second. Sure, the number one factor of kids drinking behavior is parents, right? They're seeing how you talk about it, how you enjoy it, they are watching, right? So that's the number one. In addition, the earlier someone tries, the more likely they are to become addicted. So having that conversation early and often with your kids is so important. So of course in middle school in high school, it is talking about alcohol directly. But even younger you want to build those resiliency factors in your kids, getting them to focus on protective factors, not risk factors that might be within their family. But acknowledging it and talking about it is so critically important.

43:41 I think that brings up kind of almost hits home a little bit for me, most of our listeners, of course are they a lot of them probably have kids and they see the the teen hundreds of bottles that we all have, and and my daughter plays a joke with me. You know people will say like, oh look behind you. There's Elvis in turn around. My little girl goes, Oh, look behind you. There's bourbon. And she does that as like a joke with me, right? And now that you're saying this, I'm kind of like, yeah, I should probably start having that conversation with her. She's five, but to make sure that she understands that like, this is this is not for you, yet, right? One day, but and also make sure you stay away from all the expensive bottles. The other part but, but I mean, in a more serious note, it is something that you do need to be conscious of as a parent, and making sure that you are setting the right example to

44:31 correct even if it comes to cookies, okay, you have one or two cookies. You don't need five or six cookies, right? Well, just thinking that way, talking about moderation and health and wellness, explaining why it's important that she stay away from it. Not just that this isn't for you, this kind of harming your brain. If you consume it before the age of 21 You're still developing this is really important that you know that or when is the appropriate time when your child does become of age. To engage, you'll notice this isn't something mommy and daddy do to cope with problems. This is something that we enjoy, we respect as a craft, and we use it in our celebratory moments. So even having that conversation when they are getting toward drinking age of when, when to engage with alcohol in the appropriate way, because I think a lot of people in our society use alcohol as a coping mechanism. And that is definitely not the best way to see it enjoyed.

45:25 And so while we're on the kids category, as well, I know that at least being in the industry myself, and knowing when you're doing marketing and doing all these things and buying promotional products, like it can't be anything that's related to anything that would be Child's Play whatsoever. So kind of talk about more about really what that is and like how do you promote social responsibility when it comes to marketing and that aspect?

45:49 So first, our industry standards right there discuss now we are all compliant of and then exceed in many ways, and in fact, it's important to know that that doesn't just apply to discuss members. Even nondescript members can have complaints filed against them, should they not abide by one of those rules? So we can probably just give a few examples but one is over 70% of the audience in where we are marketing needs to be over legal drinking age. at Brown Forman we regularly exceed that 80 90% of markets. So whether or not that's on podcasts or digital, Facebook, social media commercials, that's important to us. But I know we alley deals a lot with point of sale.

46:30 Yeah, I mean, making sure that you aren't using models that are above or under 25 years old to just ensure that there is no mistake that any models in your marketing activities look like miners, affluent stars or influencers. Yeah, making sure that you have appropriate age gates on all of your digital materials, including Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, all of that. This is an interesting one to making sure that you are not doing things And that are attractive to minors. And that's where these marketing codes start to get really interesting. So I'm thinking like, cartoons, right, right. How many times have we seen like the little oval mashers on the little bats, right? These cartoon kind of figures that depict bourbon and are intended for legal drinking age adults, but may appeal to minors or the thing I'm seeing on all the influencers accounts now are at the Capri Sun bags where you drink your cocktail out of the Capri Sun bag, right? And who's to say whether that's right or wrong, but it is a fine line. And so the great part about trade associations and approaching alcohol responsibility collectively, is that we provide a forum for our members to come together and discuss these things openly or not openly. Sometimes we have had members come to us in the past and be like, I have a real problem with the add that our colleague x put out. Can you go have a conversation with them and kind of get some background? I don't think it's appropriate for me as an industry competitor to have that conversation, but I do really like it made known to them that we didn't really love that ad and think it could be noticed negatively by a legislator or industry official.

48:09 It reminds me of, I think it was over a year to now, there used to be an Instagram account called scotch trooper. And what he would do is he would actually utilize Stormtrooper figurines in pictures with scotch and I mean, he had it was crazy. He had like almost 100,000 followers on Instagram. It was huge. In then, yep, lawsuits and everything kind of came crashing down on him. It wasn't from you know, George Lucas or anything it was actually from the spirits industry, right. So he lost all the sponsorships. He lost everything from that that point. So it was it was something that it's tough. That's a tough realization, right? Because I mean, it is toy figurines. However, how was it actually presented as like, Oh, this is like child's play. Here there, right. However, this is you also had mentioned something so anybody that's out There that doesn't know. So discuss is an organization. You can google it di SC us. They've got all the rules and regulations on what it is to actually be. I guess marketing responsibly and stuff like that. I remember, we had to go through it just for the podcast to be able to make sure that we were complying with a lot of the regulations of, as you said, adding the age gay to the website, making sure that we do a basically a survey of our audience and making sure that what is it like we have to be like 79.8% positive that everybody listening is over

49:34 know where that number comes from? a tailor said it currently it's 70.6, but it's 3.6. Okay, that's the percentage of the US population, statistically, that's considered to be a legal drinking age adult, according to the US Census. So that number isn't arbitrary. It's designed to reflect the adult population in the US, which is cool to know.

49:54 So it's larger the sample size, right? That's it is the population of the US. So yeah, see, that was one thing I remember. Going through and doing that to make sure that we had all of our ducks in a row and we are trying to find the right people and stuff like that to make sure that we comply with all the guidelines that are that are set out there. So it is good to see that we've actually Thank you. I mean, we've actually encouraged other bloggers and stuff that follow along with us they started adding h gates they started doing that because they're like, why do you have that? I'm like, here go read the PDF. It's long start start now. Yeah,

50:24 hi bourbon lovers should care about that because it protects the industry that they love from over regulation. So if you want good access to bourbon, you should be the biggest responsibility advocate out there because the minute the industry starts to misbehave is the minute that regulators start to take away some of the privileges that bourbon lovers so much enjoy when they come to Kentucky

50:44 Yeah, I was about to think of because you do start to jog my memory again about the the four roses the barrel pick and stuff like that in and really if if, if that system is not in place and something bad does happen, it could potentially change Exactly what bourbon lovers what we enjoy, we get, we get to go do and barrel pics that like, yeah, it's not gonna be the same experience anymore like some like some things will change, right and so everything that's being implemented is being done with a very specific purpose to actually help the broader community. Maybe at first it might seem like the man's coming down on us but it's not supposed to be like that

51:21 responsibility as a part of all our conversations with legislators and we're seeking new privileges and they've given us a ton in recent years. So back in 2014, they passed their bourbon barrel reinvestment credit, which essentially eliminated the bourbon barrel tax and gave it back to distillers as a credit to reinvest and their tourism experiences in their communities to alcohol responsibility in 2015, a past Senate Bill 11, which allowed the by the drink sales at the distilleries, because they knew we could be responsible retailers, that was a huge shift, you're allowing a manufacturer of a product to all of a sudden become a retailer of a product and that blurs those lines, and so they felt confident that distilleries could operate as responsible retailers to allow us to enjoy those cocktails. The next year they gave us the privilege to start serving spirits at fairs and festivals, which was a big one. They also strengthen the definition of Kentucky bourbon whiskey to include liquid that was fermented distilled an aged in Kentucky, not just age changed the game for contract distilling. In Kentucky, which is where we saw Bardstown bourbon company come in the next year. Gosh, we saw spirits shipping, which is something we're working on still, which is a huge concern when it comes to allowing alcohol to get in the hands of miners shipping is a big part of the discussion. And then last year, we actually took our lobbying efforts and use them for social good by helping work on Senate Bill 85, which strengthen Kentucky's DUI laws for the first time in decades, including its ignition interlock program, which helps connect DUI offenders to monitoring and treatment resources that they need so that they won't just be punished legally. But they'll also connect with resources if they do have a drinking problem.

53:04 So what's next on like the the lobbying table for for you all like what are you trying to? I mean, I know shipping is a big one, right? We talked about

53:10 shipping e commerce.

53:11 Yeah, we talked about that all the time, because we see that as kind of like the next generation of where this is all going to go.

53:17 Ecommerce is definitely where we're going. And that's a huge responsibility that our distillers do not take lightly. We're very excited about the opportunity, but there is a lot of details to work out and to be totally transparent and teletrac has it been a big part of that conversation in our conversations with ups and IMS databases and all these things of how do we embed ID checking into those shipping conversations to make sure that not just the person ordering it as of age, the person receiving it as a age because there's all these nuances that we don't think about if you send alcohol to an apartment building where someone's at the front desk receiving packages, but maybe the person who would get it upstairs is You know, not of age or an office building, and all these things that you don't necessarily think about, but are really important to address before you ask for that privilege.

54:08 A lot of variables there a lot of variables there,

54:11 but we want to do it the right way. Right? Everyone does GPS wants to do it correctly. I says the retailer wants to do it. And so how can we work together and collaborate? And I hope you've seen today that it's not just an old forester Woodford issue. It is an industry. And so how can we as an industry come together for collective impact to address some of these big topics?

54:33 We talked about Uber and lift? We're going to talk about that, too. So let's talk about ride sharing, because that was, we see it all the time, it'll come up in the app. There's promotional things that come out when it's bourbon fest time or anything like that, and they'll say, Hey, $50 off your signup or whatever it is. So kind of talk about what kind of relationships you are building there.

54:51 So first, it starts with us so we have a policy that employees can have a safe ride at anytime personal or from a work event. They need it. But that is never a green light to over consume. So it's always that moderation is expected if they choose to drink, but we want them to have access and they can use Uber lift taxis, whatever's most convenient and economical for them. But then we also provide discount codes at our events. So you all can do this too. It's uber.com slash events. And you can create it whether or not you're hosting a holiday party, a New Year's Eve party. St. Patrick's Day, whatever it might be, you can create safe rides for your guests.

55:32 I didn't know that. Yeah, there you go.

55:34 And the alley has a great huge partnership with left.

55:36 Yeah, we've really loved working with lift specifically, we have found them to be a very engaging partner, our values aligned with them and they've invested a lot in the state of Kentucky. So it started along the rural communities in Kentucky bourbon trail. So when we were first looking at preventing impaired driving, we looked at the resources that were available to people who are going to Bardstown. Let's say or For sales out in Woodford, and we realized that we were telling people not to drink and drive, but there wasn't great access to ride alternatives. And those are it sounds like there's like two taxis. So yeah. And the reality is that 70% of people who come to visit the Kentucky bourbon trail are coming from out of state, meaning that they're not familiar with local resources. they're familiar with national resources like Uber and lift. And so we knew we had to partner with one of them. And so we approached both we ended up working with left and we basically convinced them to unlock their technology across the entire state of Kentucky because of the economic development presence of distilleries, because they don't want to unlock their technology and communities where there may not be enough drivers or demand because they don't want people to have that negative experience of not being able to get a ride or signing up to be a driver and never getting any requests. And so we said, Look, we draw a lot of people to these rural communities, and we think that there could be a cause to have your service and So we made an agreement, they unlock the technology and we started hosting breakfasts at some other rural distilleries, including Woodford Reserve and heaven Hill Ozi. Tyler Jeff to kraid basically put invitations to these distillery breakfasts and the local papers on indeed.com. All these really grassroots things and invited the community to come learn what lift was because a lot of them had no clue and understand how you could sign up to drive and earn extra money outside of your other day job. So how can be economic development tool, and most importantly, what impaired driving statistics look like in your specific community and how having that resource in your community would help? And so we really tried to shine a lot of light on it. We did recruit about 25 to 50 drivers and each place it's still a growing and organic effort. However, I will tell you, we've seen success, particularly in owensboro and it's really picked up in owensboro. And you can now get an on demand really ride really easily there and was in large part thanks to Ozi Tyler's leadership in that community coming on board, and we did see it work at Kentucky bourbon festival. The first year after we held those breakfast, we actually brought in some Highway Safety partners from lift and the National Sheriffs Association, and they took a lift out to Bardstown. And we were so nervous because we were like, Oh, no, they got they got there, but are they going to get a ride home when they order it and they had scheduled in advance, and the woman that picked them up was one of the women that had attended one of the distillery breakfasts heaven Hill, and it was just such a cool story to see that that it did make a difference that someone was able to get a safe ride home back to livable from Bardstown. But beyond that we've really grown the partnership in a variety of ways, the most visible one being a coalition called Safe Ride Kentucky that brown Forman actually started and with, I think it was Uber and city school at the time, and they said, You know what, we would really love to give this to the KDA to grow as an industry effort and we think we can do more Or if everyone invest. And so the KDA took it over and we started inviting other community partners to come on board and donate. And now we give away 10 to $20,000. And free safe rides on five key holidays whenever the Kentucky Office of Highway Safety runs its drive sober or get pulled over program. So that's going to be St. Patrick's Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, the night before Thanksgiving. And then the two weeks between Christmas and New Year's Eve. But Lyft traditionally has basically given us a investment match. So whenever we put in 10,000, they've put in 10,000 and free rides, which has been huge for the state of Kentucky to have a national resource like that invest in our communities. But it's also another example where the Kentucky Office of Highway Safety gives the KDA a $10,000 grant every year to execute that program along with AAA the wine and spirits wholesalers. And there's one other one that I am forgetting so I hope they don't get mad at me beer

1:00:00 Yeah, the bureaus have helped out a little bit. And but it's just been awesome to watch government support industry efforts and be like, you know what you all are actually doing it the right way we want to get involved. And together, we've given about 8000 free rides. over the span of nine campaigns, we've attracted 500 new users to the lift platform here in the state of Kentucky. So people who didn't have the app on their phone before, but now have it in case they want to order a free ride. And I think that is making a difference. I hope it's making a difference and the way people think about planning your ride, and I know it's made a difference in the way the Office of Highway Safety approaches, they're impaired driving prevention efforts. Because before they were just saying, Don't drink and drive, and they weren't really thinking about what's an alternative? Yeah, what's an alternate what do you do? What do you want me to do? And

1:00:47 so now the homeowner.

1:00:49 So now they're thinking about how do we embed accessibility to alternative transportation options into our state's plans, which is a huge shift.

1:00:57 It is huge. I mean, there's we we On our barrel selections, we go to Bardstown a lot, and we have a lot of people that come in from out of town. And that's always a question. They're like, should I take a rideshare and we always say the same thing, like, you can get out there. I don't know how you're gonna get back. And so we always try to figure out how we can carpool and whatnot and sort of stuff like that. But it's, it's good to kind of know that this is the impact that you're all having. And that this is something that I can now use that as a resource and say, yeah, you can try I think, I think it's, it's growing and make sure you schedule it ahead of time. Right, and you can probably get a ride and it's probably pretty good reasonable prices. I mean, a trip to from Bardstown back to a little might be like 30 or 40 bucks, but hey, it's better than trying to drive yourself that's for sure.

1:01:40 Plan ahead is what we want everyone to do before you start going out or do your event or go to a distillery know your plan. Hmm.

1:01:47 So Ali and Taylor, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. This was a pleasure to really kind of understand exactly what it is that you are trying to do. And I guess I'm gonna give you opportunity to like just like one thing top of mind. Like what you want our listeners to leave with Taylor elegy.

1:02:03 It's great. And so our new campaign within brown for men is called pause. We just want people to be mindful and intentional when they choose to drink. So pause before you grab your car keys. Should I drive? Or should I take a safe ride? pause before you order another drink, pause and have some water to have some food, pause about access. Are there under age folks who are in this room? Just be aware so I hope you all can take that away to know that it's not a no, it's not less than is true that positive experience with bourbon

1:02:33 perfect alley.

1:02:34 And as you see friend the cover page of our new responsibility report behind us it's all about crafting a better drinking culture and having a conversation about what that means. And so there is no right or wrong answer necessarily. It is about talking about the vulnerable and awkward situations that sometimes come up and when you're drinking and working through that together so that you have the most awesome time possible when you're enjoying your good Kentucky bourbon. So I think are asked to people Let's just have that conversation about what it means to you. What does alcohol responsibility mean?

1:03:04 I love ending on a slogan, the best way to do it. So thank you both once again for coming on the show. It was it was really good. I think for us to kind of really see the other side of this right we, we talked about the drinking culture all the time, but we don't talk about the other side of it, right? We don't talk about the awareness side too much. We don't talk about promoting the healthy or sustainable side of it. So understanding what you all do as as your full time roles, it plays a huge impact on all of the stuff that most people don't even see or take for granted. It's kind of like it's kind of like the hidden hidden jewel and hidden gem behind it. But there's there's so much that's going on and I can't thank you all enough for what you are doing to help you know positively impact the industry in regards of making sure that people are having a a safe and healthy drinking culture too. So if anybody wants to learn more about the programs that you all have, is their websites or something that they can go and find out more about it.

1:04:00 Ky bourbon trail calm slash responsibility

1:04:04 and RSV brown Forman com slash responsibility here

1:04:06 y'all can't be too hard to remember there so make sure you go you check those out. You can follow bourbon pursuit on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, if you like what you hear, leave us review. If you want to even be a bigger part of this you can help support us patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you have any other show suggestions, things you want to hear other kind of crazy topics. This was a topic that again, I met Taylor at a dinner we just started talking and it just kind of led to this I was perfect. But if you have ideas, send us an email team at bourbon pursuit calm. With that. We'll see everybody next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Angel's Envy 2019 Cask Strength

Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:30:38 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3yWaZtLAx0&w=560&h=315]

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Angel's Envy 2019 Cask Strength. This non-age stated bourbon is 122.4 proof and $200 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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231 - Continuing 84 Years of Tradition at Heaven Hill with Conor O'Driscoll

Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:30:38 GMT

Conor O'Driscoll is beginning to make a name for himself. After spending part of his career at Brown Forman and Angel's Envy, he was recruited to fulfill the role left behind by Denny Potter. Conor is now the seventh Master Distiller in Heaven Hill's 84-year history. We spend some time getting to know Conor's past, what the recruitment process is like to find a master distiller, what his role is going to be with the operation side of things, and how at the end of the day he just doesn't want to screw anything up.

Show Partners:

Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle them at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com.

Show Notes:

This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about dry January.
Where are you from?
How did you end up in Terre Haute, Indiana?
How did you get into bourbon?
Tell us about your time at Woodford.
What was difficult to learn about the distilling process?
Talk about working at Angel's Envy.
Is distilling rum the same process as bourbon?
Are distillers in charge of blending?
How did you end up at Heaven Hill?
Did you have to give up anything to move into this role?
Are you looking for ways to improve the legacy brands?
Was there a learning curve coming to Heaven Hill?
Who determines the increase in production?
Were you involved in forecasting at your other roles?
How did you learn the Heaven Hill portfolio?
Do you have a favorite brand?
What was it like to sign your first bottle?

0:00 Perfect timing. Luck of the Irish again, right?

0:03 Yeah. I get to say that one every day.

0:19 What's up everybody? It is Episode 231 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny and we've got just a little bit of news to go through. Four roses, like every other distillery out there is trying to figure out what do you do with old barrels and there are all kinds of breweries across the nation just want to gobble them up. And four roses is collaborating with Brooklyn Brewery for a new limited release beer called Black Ops. Now I've seen it before, but this one's a little bit different because this vintage of Brooklyn Black Ops was aged for four months in four rows of small batch barrels that were then selected by master distiller Brent Elliott and re fermented with champagne yeast. This Russian Imperial stout comes at 12.4 ABV. raises a fluffy dark brown head combines big chocolate and coffee notes with a rich underpinning of vanilla like oak. Brooklyn Black Ops will be available in limited quantities wherever Brooklyn Brewery is available. A new development is happening in downtown local with a new website that offers an interactive map. a whole list of attractions featuring downtown distilleries like old forester angels envy Victor's plus a whole gallery of pictures. It's called the bourbon district. There are flagpoles and Information Science going up around downtown around the city that gives information history and directions to all the bourbon related happenings in downtown Louisville. You can check it out online at bourbon ism.com that's like tourism, but bourbon ism.com Ryan and myself we traveled down to Lynchburg, Tennessee this week to go and pick our first ever single barrel of jack daniels. We've heard so much about these single barrels being stag killers that we just had to go out and try it. ourselves, we're really looking forward to bringing this barrel selection along with many others to our Patreon community in 2020. And right now our goal is set at 20 barrel selected for the Patreon community in the next calendar year. With the holidays approaching, it's a good time to think about how fortunate we are that we get to enjoy this great hobby of bourbon. With the help of the bourbon pursuit Patreon community and the fellows on the round table. We've kicked off our first ever Christmas charity raffle, go to bourbon pursuit.com slash Christmas to see all the packages that we have lined up. There's bottles of pursuit series, Episode 17, which was our collaboration with willet distillery of Maker's Mark 46 private selection that we did a Russell's reserve from rare bird one to one a victors barrel strength right Elijah Craig barrel proof the old label, Traverse City collaboration from bourbon or as well as breaking bourbon and even more bottles. There's also apparel glassware tasting sheets, a complete signed copies Of all the books that have come from Fred MiniK, as well as a signed copy from sip and corner, Brian Harris as well. Every dollar raised is going to the USO in pets for vets. Both of these organizations do incredible things for our veterans and their families. Every entry gives you a chance to win any of the prize packages that we have. And of course you must be 21 year old or older to enter entries are accepted until midnight of December 22 2019. So please go visit bourbon pursuit.com slash Christmas to get in on the action and help out veterans in this holiday season. Now for today's podcast, Conor Driscoll he's beginning to make a name for himself in this bourbon world. After spending his career at Brown Forman and angels envy, he was recruited to fulfill the role left behind by Denny Potter. Connor is now the seventh master distiller in heaven hills 84 year history. We spend some time getting to know Conors past, what the recruitment looks like. Even like that whole process. Even Find a new master distiller and what his role is going to be with the operation side of things and how the end of the day, he just doesn't want to screw anything up. Alright, let's kick off the podcast. Here's Joe from barrel craft spirits, and then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

4:17 I'm Joe Beatrice,

4:18 founder of barrell craft spirits, we enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cash rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiastic next time. Ask your bartender for barrell bourbon.

4:34 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char I as a journalist, I get pitched a lot of stories and over the past 15 years, you know in covering the booze business in one shape or another, I have received about every pitch you can possibly imagine from celebrities, to new nightclubs, you know to the fads like white club and every kind of Vodka flavor you can imagine, and yada and on and on and on and on. One of the latest trends in the booze industry is is one of the more fascinating trends that I have ever seen. And that is dry January and this entire belief that the alcohol industry needs to start preaching and talking about not drinking. And what's interesting about this is that you would say, you could take a step back and say, Well, if you encourage people to not consume alcohol, wouldn't that hurt the industry, but the counter to that is take a look at what happens when you drink too much. People die, people die of liver poisoning. There's certain types of cancers that are linked to drinking too much alcohol. There's all kinds of problems that can be linked to over consumption. And by overconsumption I'm talking five to seven drinks a day. You know, getting drunk. Every day, binge drinking to the point of where you have to get your stomach pumped on a regular basis. I mean, these are real issues that people face and to counter that the alcohol industry has been promoting mocktails and dry January. Now, I'm torn, because I'm a firm believer in drinking moderation. And I'm a firm believer in just being responsible. And it's something in our there's something in our country's DNA that we don't allow ourselves to really have a conversation about what is responsibility, even the brand's they're all saying yada, yada, yada, drink responsibly, don't drink and drive all this but what is drinking responsibly? Well, they'll say, well, it's having two drinks, but but again, what is it? Is it you know, drinking, not drinking when you're emotionally, you know, inspired or connected to something? Is it not drinking on anniversary? Is it just having one drink? And, you know, maybe you just got married or you're celebrating something? Can you have five drinks, then? I mean, no one really talks about what drinking responsibly is. They just have their taglines. And now this whole effort about, you know, mocktails and dry January, it makes me question if we truly know what we're trying to do in this business when it comes to encouraging moderation, because if you ask me, getting people to not drink during January has the opposite effect. That's teaching abstinence. That's not moderation. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred MiniK and check out my new YouTube series on YouTube. Just search my name Fred MiniK. Until next week, cheers

7:58 Welcome back to that episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Ryan here and this is the this is the first time I think Ryan might have been to this office in this conference room, because no

8:09 you haven't. You've been here. I've been here Barney lovers. We were We were not in this conference room. Yeah, I remember when this read

8:14 Yeah. Cuz I was like we had we had Larry on last time. And, you know, so we're at the the, I don't call it the marketing offices. It's the business offices of heaven hill that are located here in Louisville, Kentucky. It's catty corner to the Maker's Mark offices, so they're always spying on each other to kind of figure out what's happening over there and stuff like that. I guess

8:34 bar sounds just not good enough for him.

8:37 I don't know. I mean, I totally get it. There's way more lunch spots and place to take people. Yeah,

8:42 there's more than maybes. But you know, the other thing is, you know, I also feel bad for a lot of the people that that do have to work in these multiple locations because you are, you're driving a lot back and forth to whether it's distillery whether it's the offices because, you know, we're not going to Bardstown. We all happen to be here and global. So it It made sense to come here but I know that you know our guest today he's got to go. He's got to go to the Bernheim distillery. He's got to come here. He's got to go to the Heritage Center. He's He's all he's making the trifecta of all the places he has to hit up. I guess we'll find out if that's one of the perks you know, your mileage, your mileage gas reimbursement,

9:19 or company car when your masters dollars. Absolutely. Yeah.

9:23 So with that, let's go ahead and introduce our guests. today. We have Connor O'Driscoll. Connor is the newest minted master distiller at heaven Hill. He is also the fifth master distiller that's been crowned at heaven Hill. So congratulations.

9:36 Thank you very much. I think I'm seventh seventh. Is that what it was? Okay, then the era era

9:41 fifth and superior than the heaven Hill.

9:43 See what happens? We get Wikipedia information. Yeah, they're right

9:46 in Google food just wasn't on my side this morning. Yep. So Connor, welcome to the show. It's great to be here. honored to be here. Yeah, I mean, we've we've met before we talked and and

9:57 yeah, we did is we didn't wanna Whiskey and dine with getting Daya

10:01 What was that? Was it was that raw?

10:03 Yeah it was what was it a long time it was that was my debutante get to get to know Connor Connor night is what it was so yep.

10:10 And and you know estimate impression and vice

10:14 vice versa yes yeah

10:16 and I could understand like it's got to be difficult coming into a situation like this and and seeing a product portfolio that's the breath in front of you and saying like okay, now I've got to be

10:27 the face of this Yeah, don't screw it up. I mean, that literally was the the guiding mantra the the first one still is don't screw it up. But you mentioned the portfolio. You know, the other place I've worked or you know, great whiskeys, but it was like one whiskey maybe two or three. And now you come to heaven Hill, and there's a lot and honestly I'm I'm still learning the portfolio. But what a fun facet of the job to learn the portfolio.

10:52 Yeah, well, not only bourbon you have like in I'm not sure if you know that all the different brands are

10:58 wearing well. We're making I'm on the I'm still learning the whiskey anything so yeah, we got our five mash bills that go into multiple different skews. And you know everything from the mellah, corn, corn whiskey all the way up to heaven hell 27 with all the fantastic products in between there. Sure.

11:17 So before we get sorry, not the products that we want to kind of get know more about you because I can't pin it down exactly what region from Texas are you from?

11:26 Very, very far eastern Texas. So Far East across the Atlantic, I grew up in Dublin and Ireland. So the joke is they put an Irishman charged with whiskey. Am I living the dream or I live in the stereotype to be determined. So yeah, I grew up in Dublin, went to school there, got my degree in chemical engineering there and actually started my career with Pfizer pharmaceuticals, in Cork on the south coast of Ireland.

11:52 I've been with them for forgetting quite a year and they asked me to go to Terre Haute, Indiana. I have a

12:03 word for john deere. Yeah.

12:05 They had a actually was kind of cool. You know, for a guy straight out of college the we were using a genetically engineered and our genetic genetically engineered bacteria to make the enzyme to make cheese. And it started was a fermentation based process. So you know again for a kid straight out of college This was bleeding edge technology. And it's amazing that you're like this was exciting like

12:28 these were excited on time product

12:29 was exciting. The process is exciting. Yeah. And it was

12:35 it was supposed to be a six month assignment four months and they asked me to stay and six years later I quit. So it wasn't so awful that I couldn't stay there for six years now the people I worked with the fantastic still friends with some of them. You know, the, the, I guess the real thing that kept me there was I reconnected with some friends from Louisville. I started coming down here on the weekends and probably had enough Been for that the the lore of Terre Haute would not have been strong enough to keep me there but you know gotten older level very well got to know the road from Taro to local really really well. And you know like i said i for six years and Taro and I quit

13:15 and spent that summer riding my motorcycle across the country. Oh, it's interesting. Yeah, still still have it's a 93 CEO Harley guy and I haven't heard they said 93 superlight

13:26 spent seven weeks that summer writing 11,098 miles. As I was heading back towards Indiana, I realized it was gonna be very close to 11,000 miles. I said if I don't make 11,000 miles I'm riding around the block. I do make 11,000

13:42 ended up being 11,000. That's like me with my Fitbit every day. I'm like, all right. Yeah.

13:48 Yeah, it's kind of same thing. But I was in Mexico, Canada and 23 states in between. Wow, the week so it's pretty cool. It's quite an epic road trip. It was epic. It was really cool.

13:57 So So kind of talk a little bit more about the road. Trippler were it was there any like other sites that you're like amazed to see, I know for me personally, people always thought about going and seeing like the Grand Canyon. And for me, I remember going to see in the Grand Canyon and you look, you get there and you're like, Alright, let's get out of here like we've seen it.

14:14 Well, so the the genesis of the trip was 1996 was the 75th anniversary of Route 66. So Harley organized is rolling rally, they call it start in Milwaukee for hardware parties are built, came into Chicago picked up route 66 and then followed it west to Santa Monica. There's not much left to route 66 but they had a historian with us who every evening would talk about, you know what we'd seen today what we're going to see tomorrow and it was 400 and some bikes did it and and I was one of them and it was thousands you could join anywhere along the way. So remember riding into like touken Karina Mexico, and just as far as you could see in front as far as you could see it behind double line of Harley's. So that was Very cool, but you know, got to see, you know, all kinds of the US and especially you mentioned the Grand Canyon. I mean, I've been to the Grand Canyon three times twice on my Harley and one the first time was was on this ride. And yeah, it's it's pretty stunning to see it.

15:17 What did you learn about the US on that trip that like that, you know, before I get to our country, you know, you probably have preconceived notions about

15:26 it and like, I know, I'd been in the, in the, in the states for six years and have taken multiple road trips, you know, West and wherever, but to see it from the back of a Harley and to see it for that long. You know, I wrote every inch of highway one Pacific Coast Highway, you know, from the Mexican border, the Canadian border. I wrote over independence pass road across the desert in Texas, you know, there's one stretch of highway there were, you know, it's 100 miles between gas stations. And Mike's got him out of 30 moderating yeah yeah. So I just I mean the vastness the variety you know to go from you know sea level to 14,000 feet that's not four to 12,000 feet anything's past go from the Pacific Northwest Texas desert yeah just stunning

16:20 was a little bit different than than Ireland to because at least in Ireland if you do that kind of driving least you see castles

16:27 across the US like, not really Oh Harris castle is a Hearst Castle just holiday.

16:31 Just holiday.

16:34 Yeah.

16:35 So kind of talk about what's that that next evolution of your journey? How did you get into I mean, you were doing the cheese thing you stopped.

16:42 What I wasn't, I was a pre chorus. I was doing the the enzyme thing the enzyme is I know it sounds really bad. I'm like, I'm gonna do that cheese thing. Yeah, we were we were. We were in the cheese supply chain. But yeah. You know, the process I worked on in Ireland was fermentation based. This one in Terre Haute was fermentation. And after I Well, after the motorcycle trip, I ended up in Colorado, skied all winter, and then got my career going again. And it's an awesome severance package. I had to save smart I know Sarah respects bed safe, smart. And I learned to live cheeping. And so when I got my career go and again, I said, well, I've tried this production thing, I'll try engineering. And I put the design and things and did that for another six years and that was that was less fulfilling. Let's say it was very deal. bertina is that a word? It is

17:35 already me. I will take the take the new terminology, what it was, you know, sit in a cubicle, that type of thing.

17:43 By this point, I was married and I'd always said that, you know, I was going to stay in the US as long as it was fun. And yet once it was no longer fun, I leave but of course, you know, you're still here. It's still here. It's still fun transcontinental motor motorcycle trip. Pretty fun winter skiing. Pretty fun, you know, I've still fun

18:04 20 years later

18:06 21 years later So, you know, I said it quit being fun, I would go back to Dublin and try and get a job making Guinness because that would be fun. And once I realized that wasn't leaving, and like I said it was getting tired of this, the engineering end of things. So I gotta go What's next? You know, where where should I? Where should I take my career and like I said, the biggest thing was in the back of my mind was that it's not the closest thing but you know, kind of along that arc, this bourbon thing seems kind of cool. So that was in 2002 when I really started thinking about it but you know long before any boom long before you know any any even hint of the boom you know, Woodford had been in existence for what six years at that point. That's That's how long ago it was. So I started knocking on doors and it literally Two years before Geico Leo reading or who had run, what's now the brand form of his salary he retired and ever read ratcheted up one and opened position. And I was lucky enough to get hired into that. And the previous person hired into that. That job was my boss who had been hired 26 years prior to that. That's how slow the industry was that but brown Forman hired me and it was like whew, dream job. And I spent five years in Shively, you know, learning how to learn how to run into Syria how to make whiskey and in 2008, nine runner up then they sent me out to Woodford and again Woodford was tiny then but the boom was probably that's, you know, it was probably starting that our had started and was starting to pick up some momentum.

19:50 Yeah, that's when you kind of start seeing a lot of the uptick and rise of people just visiting, distilleries and stuff like that. Not so much the the craze we see today of bye Just flying off the shelf, but definitely a more of an interest from the average consumer. And probably nearing the time to when a lot of distilleries are thinking like, Oh, we probably need a visitor center.

20:12 So when for did have a visitor center, which is kind of cool, but you mentioned the uptick and visitors that literally was the first thing we saw. You know, Hank, at that point, the visitor center had been designed for maybe 30,000 visitors a year and the bourbon trail came on right around then and really kick things up and you know, there weren't that many visitor centers and Woodford had the newest nicest one. And you know, so to that wasn't quite the ground for the Woodford but it was pretty close to it. So to be there at that point in in the industry's growth and in Woodford growth was just well, perfect timing. Look at the Irish again right.

20:50 Yeah. album to get to say that one had bed every day.

20:56 So the I said from 2009 till What was it say? Two years ago 17 was at Woodford did. Most of that was, you know, running the distillery Did you know Did a lot of cool things were worked with a lot of cool people learned a ton. Kind of was part of it was you know, it's just it was gratifying, Exciting, thrilling to be part of the growth of that brand. Like said when I went out there, it was tiny. By the time I left, we were shipping over a million cases a year. And you know, it had become what it is now. Or,

21:29 you know, yeah, you still had a hand and a lot of the product that's still coming out today, anything like

21:34 that. When I left there are people who said, you know, are you going to do it all the person you've told them what fruit you have? And I was like, what a drink it

21:42 and it's good for at least seven years. Yeah, I have confidence. It'll be good for a long time. It's still a good team out there. So

21:47 yes, what to say speaking of the team, I mean, talk about a relationship or time with Chris Morris or anything like that, because I know that you you probably had some sort of interaction with him and we

21:57 worked very closely together and what a cool guy to work with. I mean His his knowledge of the industry and, you know, he he was clearly the tip of the spear in the in the in the growth of Woodford and in the guidance of its growth you know the Masters collections you know I was lucky enough to have a hand on those and you know make several of those but they are all his brain children and you know to work closely with him and the rest of the team as well. And you know the you know, Elizabeth Nicole who's now the system master sitter, she worked with me for a while Woodford and that was that was a lot of fun. She's She's cool. Yeah.

22:36 A little tight knit family. You guys yeah, Christmas cards. I go back.

22:40 We just exchanged bottles. Yeah. So I'm curious when you get into you know, distilling, like you said you you know you came from the end zone fermentation like, Is there like that when you show up as like art? Here's the training manual. And let's

22:52 go No, no, no, their age or there really isn't. And especially back then because you know, when you haven't hired someone for 26 years, there's no onboarding manual, y'all know new guy manual. So it was you know, kind of seat of the pants stuff, you know, I followed my Glen Glaser was my boss learned a ton from him followed him around every day, like a lost puppy, you know, work with the operator is kind of sadness them quite another, those are the guys who turned the vows and, you know, run the show, so, you know, sit with them and learn from them and just kind of be a sponge, soak it up.

23:27 So it was a kind of like station. So like, this month, I'm going to be focusing on how to turn these valves next

23:33 month. It's guys, it's, it's, it's all inclusive, it's kind of in depth. And I remember, you know, by time I joined bra form, you know, I worked in production for six, seven years, I've done design engineering, you know, across multiple different interest industries for another six years. So, you know, hired in and, you know, Glenn said it's gonna take good two years to really understand this process. And I was like, has

24:01 And literally two years to the day, I was like, I think

24:04 I'm starting to get this. Yeah. But it's just you know, it's, you know, you think about making whiskey you know, you get granny mellet mash it from Anna distill it put in the barrel, five easy steps, but you get a distillery and everything's scheduled on top of itself. And there's you got to do this first, but you got to wait for that. And then you got to worry about byproducts and is your East up to speed and blah, blah, blah, blah. So getting the integration of all those parts and the timing of all those parts and just getting everything to work in concert and understanding all the multiple nuances of flash. That's where the, those are the details and that's what the devil is.

24:41 So it's like Malcolm Gladwell, his role of 10,000 hours. So you gotta do yeah, is

24:47 when I read that book, a lot of it. A lot of it rang true. Yeah, for sure.

24:51 I don't I'm not familiar with the book.

24:53 Oh, it's just had that to be an expert. Really, they've, if you have 10,000 hours, like that's where your achievement mastery in any subject, but so, well, that's good to know. So if you do 40 hours a week, there's, you know, 2000 working hours in a year. So if you're just doing the bare minimum, you know, take you five years. Yes. So, I'm sure you're working more in that accelerated.

25:19 So we got a while until we figure out this podcast. Yeah,

25:23 we're only like 500 hours.

25:26 Well, I mean, that's, it's, it's, it's, it's a good way to kind of see how you grew up in and you learn the industry from the inside with inside of brown Forman because a lot of people we take tours and you go through and they really dumb it down. And exactly as you said, they take the five steps and like this is the process. However, there's so many intricacies with inside of that process that that you that you had just talked about, you know, during your time there what was what was one of those intricacies that you said like, Okay, this is this is going to take more time to figure out Like this is where this is where the variables tend to change a lot, that sort of thing.

26:04 So the, the easiest example of that is, you know, the optimizing the easting mashing fermentation at Woodford, you know, when I got there. They were running for mentors that we were making whiskey, everything was trotting along just fine. And like we talked earlier, this is kind of as the boom was starting up, and I was looking at ways to increase productivity and the and the distillery so one of the easiest ways to increase productivity is to put more grain in the fermenters and still doing everything exactly the same way. There's just more grain in there, therefore, there's more food for the east, therefore, they can make more alcohol therefore, you can fill more barrels. So talking with my colleague, Kevin Smith, down at jack daniels, who for every five minutes that I could talk about Eastern he could talk for five hours and and just he's a fascinating guy and just Fanta knowledge, but remember having a casual conversation with him about you know, increasing The beer gallonage and the amount of grain in the fermenters. And he says, Well, before you do that, thanks very polite about before you die, you're going to have to fix your easting was like nothing wrong or easting that's embarrassing. I spent a lot of my early curriculum. And as I, you know, we, we set it from enter and hours later at bubbles and then days later, we get whiskey out of it. And, you know, he very politely disabuse me of that. And that was step one in a two year process to get from where it was a very crude way of managing East that was actually doing more to hamper the East than it was to optimize it. But I said two years into it, and the fermenter productivity was up for you know, 25% the whiskey quality was off the charts the rates of ferment for metric content. We've had zero, you'd walk in the distillery and just smell how good it was. And from a initial notion of, let's put some more grain on the from Enter to two years later, again, I think we're finally turning the corner here. Yeah. And then of course, there were, there was some short term gains that are immediate gains, like, All right, we're on the right path, but to really, you know, get it from a system that might have been that's got 85% efficient to 90% efficient and 95% efficient, the 98% efficient, you know, to really start tweaking into details there.

28:33 Yeah, so East I mean, I guess you probably have a good idea what it's going to do based on experience, but it's a living thing. So are there times that you're just like, what the hell is going on? Like I did everything right. And it's just like, on the ship.

28:46 If you do everything right, it won't. So if it goes to shit, then something's gone wrong. Okay. Yeah, is the bottom line. You know, the the easiest way to think about it, I mean, the East makes all the alcohol and a good chunk of the flavor. So if you treat the strike, she'll treat you right back. And best quote on that. I was doing a camp run amok group at Watford and I had to give a 15 minute masterclass and easting mashing fermentation three times a day, one of the groups the young lady on it after I gave my East HBS as she said, so Randhir East is queen. I was like, Yes, that's exactly it. That's a perfect way to put it. So again, you treat the stride and she'll treat you right. Right back. And, you know, that's, that's, that's kind of the goal.

29:36 So let's move to the next stage in your journey here. So brown Forman, your time there was done in 2017. And you had a little bit of stint at angel's envy as well. You did talk about that.

29:45 Yeah. So I was kind of plugging along doing my do my thing at Woodford and you know, by this stage, I was running the warehousing and processing so another chunk of the industry learning something new. We were building the new warehouses Woodford So, you know, kind of overseeing that and understanding how to operate these giant warehouses. But once we got that system down, it kind of became road and I was like, all right, you know what else? What else is out there? You know, I've had 14 really fantastic years at Brown Forman. You know, is there anything within brown form? Is there anything without and right as I was thinking these things a former brown former former Woodford colleague who's now an age as me, she called me and said, Hey, we may have a position Are you interested? So I went down there on a Saturday morning, various repetitiously and kind of looked around and they heard they were, you know, less than a year out of startup and the brand new facility but in an older building, you've been to them?

30:44 Yeah, yes. Going to say ran into a lot of issues getting that thing up and running, and they got through them all.

30:50 But just everything about it kind of resonated with me. You're like yes,

30:55 I don't want to drive for sales since I was a

30:57 significant part of it because by this point, we had warehouses in midway so my commute was from level two midway check in with the gang there then come back to sales and generally spend the rest of my day ever sales but occasionally we bump between the two of them and then come home so getting close to three hours a day in the car wow yeah audio book time

31:21 have to say I was like I know people in like LA and they do all those commutes every day in San Francisco I'm like, how do you sit in the car for an hour one way every single day like

31:30 I mean, I was doing highway speed so it was it was relatively benign and for most of that time I was driving to Woodford to make whiskey you know it's not that bad. Yeah. But the you know, the the first several months that I was at angel's envy and I would drive home in 10 minutes, I'd literally sit in the garage and I What do I do?

31:50 How did I get

31:50 here? Like

31:52 What Did you take a walk to listen to? That podcast

31:55 way that are better? It's like I better go to the bar home or go to the bar real quick is my wife's can make me do a lot Georgia

32:02 dinner ready so

32:05 that was that was a big one there but you know love being part of a party. It's interesting that the three companies I've worked for in this industry are all different facets of family owned. But

32:17 was angels me family and when you started I was like I'm a car dealer car. I got, of course the Hendersons to

32:21 ride. But it's you know, it was it was fully owned by Bacardi. Gotcha. And Bacardi bring a ton to the table. I mean, they've been there, truly a global company. I mean, we reported up through Geneva, accounts payable were in Costa Rica and sap support was in the Philippines and stuff like that. So, you know, some timezone juggling, but that global perspective was was pretty cool. And just the cultural diversity within the I was at a meeting in Puerto Rico and I was the closest thing to a Yankee in the room and that way any yo You don't get that very often. Yeah. And those like, they're all speaking English for me, because I'm the only one here who doesn't speak Spanish. Yeah, that's kind of embarrassing. But anyway, that was, you know, lots of lots of positive things. Yeah. And again, just a different way of running running the same industry. But Bacardi have a lot of cool things they do, you know, worked with a lot of really smart, hardworking, fun people there. And of course, you know, see an angel, you know, I think the, when I came in, they were just coming out of that startup mode. And, you know, I was tasked with kind of taken out of that wild west, just run headlong at the prop problem till you fix it. All right, let's slow down. Let's think about it. Let's get a process in place. Let's think about where we want to go and how we're going to get there. And just start, you know, like slapping a process on stuff.

33:53 This is an amateur question, but a is distilling around the same process as Barban, but just different ingredients. Different agree it's basically the same. You ferment molasses Sure, Ryan. But then of course it's it's a shorter faster you don't have to mail anything you don't have to necessarily mash anything.

34:12 And then the aguar DNA

34:16 the letter that I guardia day, what is that? It's funny

34:21 to say it's it's the the new make sense. Gotcha. And then you know it's aged in general use barrels for shorter period and of course it's the heat of the Caribbean versus, you know, the seasonal cycles here. Sure. But I know it's I kind of left before I really could deep deep dive into that process. But you heard the word Bacardi and you're like,

34:44 I got a question, but

34:46 let me throw a curveball over the other. I mean, the fermentation and distillation are

34:50 very, very slowly never talked around distilling.

34:54 I've never been around the city. I saw it on TV.

34:58 But no the gang There are there. The Joe Gomez the master Blender down there is just he is one of those icons of the industry. The nicest guy you'll ever meet will talk all day long about it and just he, he wants to be your friend. You want to be his friend. And to spend time with people that can was cool. But then, like the biggest difference, I guess, is the aging.

35:23 Gotcha. So you talked about how he's the master Blender did do distillers here are they in charge of blending as well.

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37:32 So you talked about how he's the master Blender did do distillers here are they in charge of blending as well or generally speaking, so that's you know, it's interesting. You know, in Rome, it's all about the blending.

37:45 And that's why the the focus is on master blenders and you know, if you look at the history of Bacardi, the Bacardi founding members have generally come up through that. That that that supply chain, I guess what do you want to call it? Through that right? beams, you know, yeah, exactly. I mean, so the the people running the business know the business.

38:07 But then on our side of it and the bourbon

38:12 you know, blended bourbon is kind of it's still got that post prohibition nasty connotation. So we're not set we don't focus so much on the on the blending side of things. Although, you know, there that is that is, you know, one stave to our barrel as it were.

38:30 Absolutely. So, I think we're going to see a common theme here because I think this is a, probably an inhibitor to a lot of people that that work in your type of scenario in this type of industry. It's hard to maybe make upward progression, because there's people within these roles that are there for

38:50 10 2030 and there's only a handful of them.

38:54 That or you're in a situation where is it as a family legacy? You Got the nose, you've got the Russell's odds are they're not going to let some outsider come in. Cecil come in. And so you have this sort of like this cap on upward mobility. And so you had your your time at angel's envy. So kind of talk about how this process came to be of interviewing at heaven Hill and making some connections and kind of making your way into this role.

39:28 So I known Alan through the industry on lattes or co I known him for several years, just through the industry, like I said, and you know, I was I was happy at angel's envy. I was planning on going nowhere. I was not planning on going anywhere, whatever. And then the news broke that Danny had left and I mean, I was stunned as everybody else but I never I didn't even think like hot there's an opportunity for me. was like, wow, Danny left. So many Alright, so you were all your agent

40:03 start negotiations,

40:04 maybe I should. But actually, it wasn't long after that. That was Danny reached out to me. And because again, I'd known Danny as long as I've been in this business. And he said, he'd been asked to find some suitable candidates and you know, thought me and I was like, wow, I'm so flattered. You know, I hadn't even thought about that. But

40:26 Wow.

40:28 I thought about it. I was like, You know what, I've got a really good job here. I just made a big move and 18 months ago. I'm gonna stay here. And we chatted some more. Thanks very much. That was really flattering. And it's kind of one of the things as soon as I hung up, I was like,

40:43 Damn, it probably wasn't the right

40:45 answer. And then went home told my wife about it and she goes, Yeah, that wasn't the right answer. So

40:53 I forget if Alan call me next or if Danny call me back or what it was, but either way we got back in touch again. I was like, yeah, let's let's see. Let's talk. And the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. What were the hesitations? The fact that I just made a big move and I liked what I was doing that changes me. I liked being part of a party.

41:15 Yeah, it's it's always tough to be put in a situation like that you feel like you're going to burn a bridge by coming in. It's like

41:21 coaching in basketball. You know, somebody had a mid major, they're happy. They're doing well. And then you're like, but the big leagues you're feeling Exactly.

41:27 And it's funny. You said the big leagues. You know, that was kind of the the catchphrase we will but I bought it down by my office at angel's envy overlooked slugger field. So as I'm thinking through this, it's like I'm, I'm pitching AAA and doing fine pitching AAA and the Boston Red Sox, the New York Yankees just called I just said no to the New York Yankees Don't say no to the New York Yankees. Yeah. So luckily, the New York Yankees were upset that I had said no the first time and you know, we talked back to the forwards and the more

41:58 you played hard to get Wherever you go, you go by

42:03 the throat whatever cliches you want that the more I thought about it, just the more it made sense. So this is a you know, the the legacy of heaven Hill the career progression, the whole thing just kind of came together at that point I was like this is this is a once in a career opportunity. If I turn this down, I'll never get this again. And you know if this if I'm truly going to take my career to where I think it should go, this is the opportunity and so far so good.

42:34 It's kind of like it's kinda like you're also in a position like you're a Supreme Court Judge like you've been placed in a position where like, unless you really screw up like you're pretty like there's unless this this whole thing like tanks and there's a nuclear like breakout like you're going to be pretty well set when it Are you having a good there was a nuclear war. We got bigger things to worry

42:58 Yeah. I'm sure yeast will survive right now it's it's it's not quite I haven't kind of docked the ship and I'm done you know there's there's a lot of work to be done a lot of cool work to be done and I'm not gonna I haven't reached a point where I can you know glide into retirement or even I want to rest on my laurels or anything I don't know just sit on the shoulders of those who came before me there's there's a lot left to be done.

43:24 What are some of the like sacrifices or I guess parts of the job that you know you're I guess when you're working at Brown for and you're kind of behind the scenes you're not having to deal with a lot of stuff

43:34 that hard was

43:37 showing up with these idiots taking up an hour Monday

43:42 samples right now yeah,

43:43 I guess talk about that. Like, you know, cuz when you're you like you said when you go to the big leagues, you're giving up a lot. What what are some of those things?

43:51 I'm so

43:54 much giving up i think but you know there.

43:57 I think in any career as you as you Move up the food chain you've gotta gotta learn to delegate and either hope that you've got a good team behind you are engineered a good team in this case, I don't have to hope I do have a great team. I mean, this is Tara has been running for a long time before I got here making award winning whiskey for a long time. So my job is to kind of slide in pick up the reins and keep that going and on that upward arc.

44:27 Yeah, there was a time period between you and and Danny so seems like York it was still running I mean, that doesn't stop Yeah,

44:36 and nothing good stop and as I say the you know, the supervisors that are there on every shift the the team members on on the shift the maintenance guys the the whole crew, I mean, you know, we're we're lucky enough to have, you know, a painter and a janitor, they're young, they work hard to keep the place look and clean and the air is as important to the operation. him probably more important than I am. But yeah, you know, it's it's they're, they're a good team. They work hard they care and I was I was, you know, when Alan took me in to show me around the salary on a Saturday morning everything was done Saturday mornings, very surreptitious. You know, it could pick up I mean, the crew members who were there that day, we're happy to see him. And, you know, they, they clearly were into what they were doing about me. I went, we run seven days a week, and they they work seven days a week. And they were happy to do that. You know, like I said, so they're, they care, they're passionate. They want to make continue to make award winning whiskeys.

45:40 Yeah. When you when you have said, distiller like heaven Hill, he said, it's such a legacy, great brands, incredible products. And like you're like, All right, here's my baby. And they've been doing it so great. But do you look for ways to like, improve the process or look for ways like to put your own fingerprint on it, or at least two years before it changes

45:58 to do the 10,000 hours Again, hopefully it doesn't reset zero. Now Hey guys, like I said it's pick up the reins and keep things going. There's always opportunities for improvement. You know, go back to what I was talking about Woodford I mean Woodford is making good whiskey before I came along. And I had the opportunity to, you know, start optimizing.

46:22 You know, where the Bernheim distillery now is obviously, further ahead than where Woodford was in those days. But there are still opportunities to, you know, just to continuously improve. And speaking of opportunities, talk about what was that that learning opportunity and learning curve of coming in because Ryan and I, we've we've been to the Bernheim distillery, we've we've toured it and we know like the massive scale of what it's what happens there. And so kind of talk about was that sort of like a bow. This is this is pretty big, because I know it's it. It basically makes angels me look like a dwarf at that point. Compare that to word for that.

46:58 Yeah. So it's actually Talk about that.

47:00 So I mean, the the scale of the Burnham disorder is stunning. I mean, we have 17 fermenters that are 124,000 gallons each. We fill four of those a day. And obviously we empty four of those today. So that's the bones of a million gallons of liquid. We're pumping around every day. We're mashing over 16,000 bushels a day, which is over 900,000 pounds of grain a day. That's about 20 ish loads of grain to unload every day. No, no others like 650 thousand barrel warehouses eggs. Yeah, we have 58. Whereas with over 1.6 million barrels, you know, at the Burnham side, we have 480,000 barrels, and we're building a new 50,000 55,000 Bioware has about every six months. You know, we're we're laying down 1300 barrels a day, and we're probably dumping we I know we're dumping less than that. We're probably dumping the order 1000 maybe a little more than that per day so we're continuing to grow our inventory who determines that the numbers I guess of how like how to increase who determines to increase or decrease numbers very finely calibrated crystal ball so it's a it's a dark art you know as you see the sales are this today they look to be that six months 12 months whatever from now we have this much an inventory of things continue this way we should have that much. So we look at we look at that big picture probably, you know, indeed now we're looking at continuously but in detail for twice a year and make adjustments as necessary.

48:42 Was this this role your first time of actually looking at forecasting Did you do that previously in other roles, um, I would, I was involved another role that the other sites as well.

48:53 Brown Forman, have a have a guy called bill Dietrich and he runs the model and And he would bring out the serie production plan, but I worked fairly closely with him and you know, it changes MV was you know, we were so small, so new, there was no existing data to build on. So I built this very complex spreadsheet that was, you know, I ended up calling it the Wonder file. Okay, they kind of got that nickname but, so yeah, I've been involved but it's it's, you make guesses. You make projections. You know, you hope you got it.

49:32 Right. And it's not just a general longer. Yeah.

49:36 Yeah, hopefully you don't have to age a little less. Right? We plan for x, but you know what, it was actually 1.5 x so like, Oh shit, what are we doing now?

49:45 So to also talk about coming into heaven Hill, and we talked about the, you know, the breadth of portfolio of just the Bourbons and whiskies that are in front of it. And I'm sure that as as the master distiller like that as your that is your front, front line of things. That you, you talk about and you're the face for. So where is there like, like a week long boot camp where somebody sat you down and said, All right, so we're going to go through everything you've got to remember every little nuance and the history of them. Like how did that process go? It was a little bit of that. So I spent a fair bit of time with the brand teams and they gave me the PowerPoint decks and the swag and whatever else been

50:23 flashcards.

50:26 In here, the real learning though, gotta get 10 in a row.

50:29 We mentioned Bernie lovers are here. Yeah, you know, I've traveled a fair bit together already. And, you know, go to the whiskey fest and stuff. And, you know, we've gone and done, you know, trainings at restaurants and bars, and, you know, learning it from him and seeing some of his his presentations. That's that's probably where I did most of the learning.

50:51 Oh, he is Yeah, he's the whiskey professor. Any

50:53 fun to learn.

50:54 He already does. Yeah.

50:56 Well, he was up he was playing stump the chump with us.

51:00 I know he made us look like gentle Yeah, no, he

51:02 is asking us questions we were like we weren't paying attention

51:06 he's he's really good at what he does and but of course tasting the portfolio matter way to learn it. Yeah. Anyway, the the funniest one is Pikeville rye. My neighborhood liquor store on Frankfort Avenue. I'd walk by and see Pikeville rye and I read it as Pikeville Ryan I was like who's making rye whiskey and Pikeville Kentucky and then a month later on the master distiller for that brand and I go

51:30 Yeah, I

51:32 know that and I tasted that I was like holy crap This is good. Yeah, and I known Rittenhouse for a long time I love written as but pikesville kind of takes it that takes the next level the next level.

51:44 Yeah, absolutely. I mean it is so you talked about Pikeville is like is there any other like bourbon line that you kind of look at as like yeah, this is this is gonna be like my staple like this mean you gotta kind of give everyone their level. Like is there one that is there a favorite child out of the group? Well, I mean, the main And she left older children.

52:03 So you know you think about we got five Nashville's, you know I think we're the only ones making those five Nashville so the five American whiskey styles and they go into all the different brands so when we make the our bread and butter is hh reg or rye bourbon and that goes into Evan Williams, Greg Hunter mccanna whatever it might be. So learning that progression, you know, Evan Williams is you know, it's a 2.7 million case brand is the second largest selling barber in the world. And it's a you know, if you look at it, if you compare it to the competition, you know, it's age longer, it's higher proof. I think it tastes better. You know, and I that kind of to see how that, you know, ages out and becomes either mccanna are Elijah Craig and how good they are and either on the rocks or I've had some fantastic cocktails lately with our portfolio. It's It's It's It's been a fun journey but even like the I hadn't had much weeded bourbon in recent decades. When I started when I started drinking bourbon by the first one of the very first ones I had was old fits. So find out the way on offense and then we've got larceny and you know been so used to ride a Suburbans and to realize that you know, these leaders are actually they're pretty good on in their own right they're just not just like a light whiskey they are a really good you know, subset or you know, that different side of the same coin type of thing. And so to and of course the the old fits the the specializations that we bring out that are, you know, 1213 years old are just spectacular. Yeah,

53:47 and that's what I think is probably, you know, everybody always always get there's, there's so many brands inside heaven. Hell, we've been in a label room before. I mean, there's there's hundreds if not, maybe they're

53:57 they're literally dead.

53:58 So I mean, it's, it's it's mind blowing but then you know the as you'd mentioned there's an old Fitz relates there's the heaven Hill 27 year releases and people go crazy for the William

54:07 heaven Hill

54:08 and the partners but you're in a unique position because you get to try and sample and taste all these at barrel proof and you get to choose which ones that coming from so I

54:17 get to be part of the

54:18 Yeah, so it's it's that's always a fun experience because like I said, you get to do like the real unicorn part of it right you know, you don't get might not get to see the empty or the the final packaging of it but you get to see the process from really like where it started up until that point to now it's really good like we were doing a barrel selection for hotels liquors yesterday and to you know, we were tasting some the 12 year old at 151 proof now,

54:47 you gotta change the barrel pics two barrel proof pan. We gotta do. Yeah, it kills me. Let's see, we'll start there. And every time I go to a lot of the correct there's three right like it's always the hardest barrel pick because there's three like yeah, stoners from dedes Phil or whatever. You know, and you're like, gosh, I don't want to water this down. But you know,

55:04 I understand you, you, you, you take it to 94 proof and you're comparing apples to apples, right? You know that it's not just like the proof for the color, right? So you're kind of changing your mind. It's like, all right, I know that. I'm comparing the same thing, the same thing for the same thing. So you're getting, you're getting honest whiskey.

55:21 Yep. And so one of the last things I kind of want to wrap it up with is kind of a fun question. Because I want to understand like what your thought process was when this first happened, so you're going to be in front of a lot of people and I'm sure you've you've gone and you've made your rounds at the whiskey fest. And there's always it's a it's a responsibility of a master distiller or brand ambassador, whoever's the face of the brand to sign the bottles.

55:44 Yeah. So,

55:45 so kind of talk about what it was to like, sign your first bottle and go, okay, I've been here for like two weeks. So yeah, like what was that? Like?

55:54 So? It was it's kind of mind blowing to be honest with you.

56:00 Whiskey fest Chicago, I think it was, you know, we have that partnership with Goose Island. So me and Bernie and Mike Smith from Goose Island were doing a presentation on basically barrel aging and better that and afterwards somebody came up and asked me to sign their their ticket or their program or something. And you know, my first reaction was like, seriously, by the cross, I was in my head. But you know, you play the role and that's this person has spent their hard earned money to come and listen to me yap about whiskey. So like, thank you so much. I'm honored to sign it, but it's it's pretty cool.

56:38 You know, our Evan Williams

56:42 HERO program where we recognize veterans, you know, we were down with Chris cruise at cruise customs flags last weekend, he asked me to sign a bottle and he's put a ton of pictures of it on Instagram. And I'm like, anyway, you're the coolest guy. Stop making me look, I just I just scrolled on the bottle, you know, but so it's It's honestly it's gratifying. But at the same time it's it's a little shocking that right? This year Really?

57:07 Yeah. Because I remember it was, it was at the heaven Hill select stock 18 year release, and I'd saw you there. Yeah. And people were aligning, aligning to get your signature. And it was it was just kind of dawned on me. I was just like, he wasn't here 18 years ago, but it's so funny that like people, they gravitate towards you and they want that as sort of like a recognition of it. Yeah.

57:28 And that's that's the role and it's you know, and I kind of enjoy playing it Yeah, it's pretty fun but like the your celebrity 10 years ago, the What do you call it the two weeks after I start Henry McKenna wins best whiskey in the world. And you know, all these people are interviewing me and say watch it liked him. I was like, I had nothing to do with whiskey. But it's very cool that I'm writer and of course, the original mechanic was Irish and I'm Irish, so maybe, maybe maybe smiling down and look at the Irish there. It is.

58:00 always come back to it. Absolutely.

58:02 It's a great way to kind of wrap that up there. So Connor, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a pleasure like I said just to get to know you i think i think it's it's an opportunity for people to really see the the real personal side of you. You know, we just talked before we start recording we all live in like the same neighborhood. Yeah, we all we all drink the same whiskey now too. So it's, it's always fun. And let's

58:24 go to Red Rock and have a cocktail. Yeah.

58:27 Seriously, once again, thank you for coming on and doing this and you know, Ryan, I think this is a great opportunity for us to a get to know Connor and understand really his background and you know what, he brings the table here? heaven. Hell, too.

58:39 Yeah, it's a cool story. I mean, like, from Dublin to Bardstown. You know, who would have thought? Who would have thunk But no, I mean, it I'm, I'm heaven Hill is like, in my heart, because I'm from Bardstown. My fam ton of family members work there and like just that for me and Todd with the I know, it's in good hands. And, you know, that's, that's it reassuring and so I'm glad that they chose you and you decide to call him back and appreciate you taking the time to spend with us. And yeah, if anyone has show suggestions, comments, feedback, we love hearing from our listeners. So just let us know and we'll see you next time. Awesome. Thanks, guys.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Widow Jane The Vaults

Tue, 10 Dec 2019 10:30:15 GMT

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Widow Jane The Vaults. This 14 year old bourbon is 99 proof and $150 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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230 - The /r/bourbon Community of Reddit with T8ke

Thu, 05 Dec 2019 10:30:26 GMT

The online community is one of the biggest forces behind bourbon growth. This is where people go to learn more, ask questions, make connections, and find new and interesting bourbons to try. Reddit has been a platform for those conversations for a long long time. The popularity of the /r/bourbon subreddit has now eclipsed over 109,000 members and it’s continually growing. We sit down with T8ke, one of the moderators of the /r/bourbon subreddit, to get a glimpse into a moderator's daily life. We look into the type of content that gets upvotes, how the AMAs work, and how being anonymous plays a role vs Facebook where it’s your actual name and profile. Join the sub https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/.

Show Partners:

Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com.

Show Notes:

Whiskey Advocate Top 20: http://whiskyadvocate.com/top20/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about whiskey marketing.
Tell us how you got into bourbon?
What led you to discover more?
What type of content do you see on Reddit?
Is there a newbie factor?
Do people really like the reviews?
Who is the typical person checking out these reviews?
What does AMA stand for?
What were the top AMAs?
Tell us about the Reddit culture.
Talk about the anonymous factor.
Are there any issues since it is anonymous?
Are there sales in the forums?
What kind of growth are you seeing in the forum?
What topics are popular?
Why do so many people on Reddit hate Fred Minnick?
Have bourbon posts ever been on the front page of Reddit?
How much time do you spend moderating?
How many posts do you get during release season?
When people post do you have to approve it?
Who has it worse, Facebook or Reddit mods?

0:00 200 episodes in I'd have it you know, it's process down, but

0:03 we'll get it man I still got my shit together so it's fine.

0:08 Sounds good.

0:20 Welcome back everybody it is Episode 230 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny and I hope that you and everyone out there had a great Thanksgiving. And now you're preparing for the holiday rush. I put my visa and my American Express card to work this past week. And I know that there were a lot of bourbon Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals out there too. So I hope you all got something good and you have something to sip on for the rest of the month leading into 2020. Now, let's hit a little bit the news. Whiskey advocate has released their top 20 whiskies of 2019 and I'm pleased to say that five of the top 10 are bourbon, including old Ezra seven Woodford reserves master collection batch proof, the New Heaven Hill bottled and bond seven year for rose a small batch select and topping it off at the number one spot, which is kind of surprising to a lot of people is George Nichols bottled and bond.

1:15 Now we're big fans of dickhole over here but

1:18 it didn't win our whiskey of the year. Nor was it our favorite in the bottle and bond blind we did back on episode 224. We're going to be releasing our results on December 26. For our end of the year podcast, you can get the link to whiskey advocates top 20 within our show notes for gate whiskey company is releasing a new expression in collaboration with Kelvin cooperage called split Steve bourbon. The name comes from three different barrels that Kelvin deconstructed and built new casks. These barrels included number four and number two char barrels in a series of medium toast finishes. They took these barrels and rebuilt the cask and almost like a zebra like pattern. The whiskey however, is a A five and a half year in 12 year Kentucky Bourbons bottled at barrel strength of 115.6 proof with a total of this release with 2700 bottles. They will only be available on shelves in Kentucky and Tennessee. And they have a suggested retail price of $175. And bourbon is all about community and the online community is one of the biggest forces behind its growth. This is where people go to learn more ask questions and make connections and also find out new and interesting Bourbons to try off other people's recommendations and read it has been a platform for those conversations for a long time. The popularity of bourbon subreddit has now eclipsed over 109,000 members, and it's continually growing. On today's episode I sit down with take he's one of the moderators of the bourbon forum on Reddit. And we get a glimpse into a daily life of a bourbon subreddit moderator we look into the type of the content gets a lot of uploads, how ama's or ask me any things work, how being anonymous plays a role versus Facebook where it's your actual name and profile in the mind, plus a few other goodies that are kind of surprises. I'm going to keep in there for you as well. All right, now let's get on with the show. Let's hear from Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char.

3:23 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Our Bourbons have won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon.

3:35 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I want you to take a moment and think for yourself. What if you are starting a new bourbon? Would you start with the whiskey? Go to distilleries foreign wine across this country? pick out a flavor profile said that's what I want to get. Would you buy barrels? Would you comment? tractus still and sit on them for a few years? Or heck would you try to get a whole bunch of money together? And by someone like I say, I don't know, four roses, not saying they're for sale. But if I had a whole lot of money, I tried to buy four roses. Is that what you do? See? If that's the case, then you're a lot like me, in that you think about the whiskey. You think about the whiskey and what it tastes like how it will mix who you want to drink it with. But that's not how a lot of new players coming into the game. Thank you see, what they do is is they get in a boardroom with all these fancy MBAs and all these marketers who have experience with Porsche or Colgate or who the hell ever, and they say it all depends on packaging. It all depends on the name, the brand and the messaging. Some of these new companies getting into the game of spirits will have 35 conversations before they ever get to the quality or taste of the product, it's phenomenal. These companies will burn a quarter of a million dollars to like $2 million on something like, what it should be called, or what the bottle should look like. And all they do is a fascinated with the one aspect that they can actually can control. And that's the creation and the marketing of it. And that's the beauty of American whiskey is that all these people who are trying to enter the game, never understand that it's not about what the bottle looks like. It's about the quality, the flavor, and whether or not that I want to buy the bottle, not a first time. But the second time. You see marketing and branding is absolutely important. But it only gets you to buy that first bottle of bourbon better be good Get me to buy the second one. And that's this week's above the char pay. Speaking of good Bourbons, I just announced my American whiskey of the year contenders. You can go check them out on my YouTube just search Fred MiniK American whiskey of the year contenders, and I'll be doing a live tasting for those on December 20. So market the new calendar December 20. At 9pm we're going to pick out my favorite whiskey for 2019. Until next week, cheers

6:39 everyone welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, just Kenny here today but this is going to be an exciting topic as we look into the realm of bourbon culture, and really what it means to be involved in an online community. You know, we've talked about having, you know, different places where you go To find information, there's then for the longest time, if you're an O g in the realm, there were straight bourbon.com. If you're pretty new into the world there is you kind of just figure out these ways of getting into these secret groups that are on Facebook. But there's one form and one board that's been around for a long time. And that's Reddit. And they've had multiple types of different boards. There is our bourbon, they've heard Scott swap back in the day, there's been all kinds of changes that have gone down in the history. And so today, we're going to kind of be looking exactly it. Really, what is the community on Reddit all about? You know, is there is there a sense of, you know, belonging, is there a sense of attacking Is there a lot of anonymous factors that play into it that people don't want to really reveal who they are, but they'll they'll want to say things behind an alias. And so we're going to kind of talk about that today because it's it's always good to really figuring out what's happening inside the bourbon culture and really the people that are in charge of Making sure that these forums don't get out of control. And that's what mods or moderators are there for. So today on the show, we have one of the moderators of the slash are slash bourbon forum of Reddit. He goes by the handle t eight ke or take. So take Welcome to the show.

8:19 Hey, thanks for having me.

8:20 Absolutely very happy to have you today. So anybody that is watching this live or they're not just riding in their car, they'll notice that you're not showing your camera kind of not showing your face. And that's kind of one of the things that is is a little bit different in the, the Reddit world that there's this whole like, anonymous factor to it. And so before we kind of get there, you know, because I always want to kind of start the show and kind of figure out and learn more about our guests. Tell us a little bit about how you started really getting into bourbon.

8:54 Yeah, no problem. So um, so I've been in a bourbon for some time. Now. Unfortunately, I didn't start back and what People would consider the you know, the glory days you know, I didn't swimming pools it's a Weller and stuff like Pappy wasn't $29 at CVS like everyone seems to think it was, you know, 20 years ago, but I came to it as someone in college who didn't love crushin you know, Keystone is or Keystone light out of a washing machine. And I started coincidentally enough without any sponsorship, wild turkey What I wanted was my go to at the time. bourbon was inexpensive bourbon was cheap, you could buy bourbon everywhere bourbon tastes good bourbon tastes good and everything which is exactly what college people like. And that was a time when I thought you know, how am I God? You know, how can people pay $70 for 25 year buena hobbiton, only to realize, you know, 10 years later what what what a what a monstrosity that would be that's the value of the century so bourbon was what kind of got me into you know, enjoying drinks with some friends and it kind of works for everything and you can take it anywhere and you know, have it on a weeknight and have another weekend and that kind of fostered my love of you know, drinking things to taste tastes Things, say, you know, drinking things to wake up two days later and, you know, kind of Hope you pass them exams and stuff. So that's kind of what got me interested in, you know, alcohol that could taste good.

10:09 Yeah. And so kind of talk about, like, What led you into trying to figure out how you wanted to discover more? And and what were those pads of really learning for you? Because podcasts really weren't, weren't around. So,

10:25 no, they were, it was kind of interesting, because, you know, back then a little bit, you know, Reddit was, was one of the biggest resources, if you if you google the bourbon, you'd probably find the manufacturer. And then boom, you'd see this Reddit thing and at the time, and as someone who's always been in it in technology and software, you know, read it's kind of the gold standard for sharing good information. So it was only natural to say, you know, I'm on Reddit all the time because of X, Y, and Z and I like bourbon. So I know there's going to be a bourbon subreddit and no, Looky there, you know, it's right there and it's well moderated. There's good content and kind of is my crews always taken me, I think the best way to learn about something is to think about it and write about it and try and tell other people about it because it kind of helps you gauge your own understanding. And that's the point where I decided that, you know, if I really enjoy drinking bourbon, you know, pretty frequently it's my go to beverage, you know, why shouldn't I try and learn more about the origin and the procedure? And as someone who likes chemistry, you know, why do things taste the way they do, and the best way to, you know, talk to people about that, that I don't necessarily see every day is to write about it. And that's kind of I challenged myself to, to try and write one review a week and I thought, Oh, God, if I keep this up for a couple weeks, you know, I'll be golden. Which, you know, now I try and get one a day which I think is fun. So it's definitely grown from you know, kind of a starting spot to just wanting to know more and hoping that other people would teach me by calling out mistakes in my writing and, and kind of sitting down and just trying to think about, you know, what, what was in the glass.

11:51 You know, so for myself, you know, I started really trying to focus a little bit more on the on the bourbon subreddit over there. Just to See if we have any kind of presence and stuff like that. But the one thing that I noticed when I when I go over there is that the type of information is is exactly what you said, it's a lot of reviews. There's a lot of people that are always kind of like constantly spitting out reviews kind of talk about what that what the content us is what you normally see over there.

12:21 So I would say, you know, our bourbon is part of what we call the whiskey network. And in the whiskey network, we try and have subreddits that are very specific to very specific things because some people might only care about serious bourbon information or some people might only care about horsing around or some people might say, you know, bourbon is, is well, you know, I'm a scotch guy and so is part of the whiskey network. Our bourbon really fits to try and provide concrete, accurate information to people who are seeking information about brands, or you know, reviews from users who've taken the time to sit down and write about a very specific products. That's why things like, like means we kind of put in whiskey porn, which is where We're like, show us your collection or like, you know, give us you know, give us whatever whiskey meme you get. So our bourbon seeks to satisfy kind of the serious bourbon person who's looking for not only concrete information, but reliable information, and that's, that's something we try and uphold. So that's why you see a lot of reviews because people, you know, sit down and say, you know, this is my review, and these are the notes I get, and then hopefully, I can find other people who have similar palates who either agree with things that I like or disagree with things I like, and that really helps to start a lot of conversations.

13:29 Yeah, I think you kind of hit them on there. So when you talk about like the agree and disagree, you know, somebody just writes me because I've been on there like there's people that are going to say like oh, like I'm going to go ahead and write a review on Weller gold vein, and then somebody's like, I'm just gonna do one on Eagle rare. So like, is there is there like a, I want to say like, like a learning curve, but like a, like a newbie factor, like, Is anybody shame for bringing in something that's just like basic everyday stuff? Or like, I mean, how does that work? work.

14:00 I mean, so like, like with everything in life and I see a lot, you know, because I have to kind of sift through the post and I see a lot of people who start and say, like, Man, this is my first review and it's gonna suck. And, you know, they're like, I can't taste anything. And I'm like, you know what, I agree with you, I couldn't taste that much the beginning either. And, like, you know, your palate is like every other skill in life, like some people have strengths and weaknesses. like nobody comes out of the womb, like an Olympic runner, like, you got to do some running to get to Olympic runner status. And, you know, I'm, you know, reviewing is definitely not an Olympic sport, at least not my opinion. Otherwise, that'd be awesome. But, you know, reviewing things and thinking about things really takes time and practice and it's really super fun to see people at different points of their journeys is like, you know, this is review one and oh my god, it tastes like ethanol, like back again tomorrow. Hope it's better. And then some people you know, who after just five or six reviews are like, yo, like, I get it, or like, you know, I think I taste these things. What do you guys think? Like, yeah, you know, those are all things that I would think come out of that as well. So there's really no expectation that like a good review is like, I don't know, like stitz a while or from like the 60s or the 70s, or the 80s. Or it's got to be unattainable and expensive. Because, you know, we can all afford to drink that every day. And honestly, if you find someone who likes the day to day stuff you like, and then you see him, you know, taste gold vein and say, Well, you know, I thought it was good, but I honestly like some other stuff better than you can kind of take it you know, in stride that, you know, if you're going to spend 100 bucks an ounce on something, maybe you want it to be something else.

15:27 And so I guess the you know, when you think about the reviews is that do people like really find that something that they're they're really attracted that they want to go they want to comment they want to upvote or downvote or something like that, because it seems like there's just, you know, if there's a I mean, every day, there's probably what 30 or 40 new ones that get posted something like that. Definitely.

15:48 Yeah, so it's actually the communities both that are bourbon or scotch and especially our bourbon or, as far as I can tell our super welcoming and in fact knowing very rarely do I post review or see other people post reviews. and be like, Man, you wasted your time like, Man, this is garbage. There's tons of people. I mean, we get thousands and thousands of people a day from all over the internet that just come to read. And, and it's kind of interesting to see, you know, for the 10s of thousands of people you might see show up on a weekend day, you know, posts only have like, 15 or 20 upvotes. But the people who upload and take the comment, you know, take the time to comment are actually really kind of on the inner circle of people who come to the subreddit to engage. So we have the vast majority of our, you know, subreddit is probably lurkers and people who just, you know, want to Google, you know, hey, I'm sick of fireball, I want to try this. And then they read a bunch of reviews and either decide to buy it or don't and we never hear from them

16:36 ever. And what would you kind of categorize as the? I mean, I guess it's, it's kind of hard to figure it out. But maybe the typical person that is attracted to reading on Reddit, because it you know, if you can figure out is there an age, age range or demographic, that people would be more inclined to go There versus other forums.

17:02 Surprisingly, we see we see a pretty significant kind of blend in and we don't get that kind of specifics and that's not something we're really even interested in as mods is there's not a lot of at least that Reddit would share with us because Reddit ones add money, we just want to talk about bourbon. But I'm, for sure. I mean, I will admit the female population is a little bit on the low side, at least from self identifying people. As far as I can tell people that are between you know, hey, I want to buy my first bottle to I've been drinking for 40 years and I think most people fall somewhere in the middle of that. And just kind of you know, some people I talked to every single day and you get a feel, which is kind of a cool thing even though you don't know what they look like and you don't know how many kids they are and they don't know what their illnesses, you you know, you get a sense of people of who they are through the bourbon they like and through what they comment and what you comment on their stuff and, and getting a sense for that you kind of meet people individually, but we I'd have to imagine that our key demographic is probably like 27 to 55 and mostly dudes.

17:58 Yeah, I mean, I come from a Tech background. Most of the listeners probably know that and so Reddit is always seems like a place that you go for a lot of stuff, at least in tech where things get posted. People ask a lot of questions. There's the ama's of it. And I guess for for anybody that's not familiar with Reddit, you want to explain what an AMA is?

18:19 Oh, yeah, so an AMA is just short. It's, it's a TLA, or a three letter acronym for asked me anything. And that's usually when we have a person in the industry, or we have a prolific individual, whether they're a writer, author, you know, something like that. And they basically say, Hey, I'm gonna dedicate the next x hours of my life to sit here and answer questions from random people like you on the internet. And then we all we screech internally and we all get really excited. And we ask them all sorts of crazy questions, at least hopefully, you know, Master distillers are super awesome. We've had people like Russell's and, you know, distillers, the master distillers and brand ambassadors from a lot of majors still resolve come up and say, Hey, we'd like to dedicate some time just to talk to you guys.

18:59 Yeah, it's like I know That I think I think Danny Potter did one a little while ago. But I mean, can you recall like some of your like your top one or top two or three that you've had in regards of ama's.

19:11 So, for me, the four roses and wild turkey ones have been awesome. I've really enjoyed also high West was interesting, but I've kind of, you know, as I go through things I identify a little less with the way the high West is doing. But you know, is for as much love as wild turkey gets, they certainly deserve it. Because, you know, they were willing to sit down and just give us huge long responses to really technical questions and just kind of show us that you know, that they care about the people who buy all their Bourbons, not just the expensive ones are, you know, not just the people that buy 10 cases at a time.

19:43 What's the over under on if it was Jimmy or Eddie actually sitting there and typing it or if he was just talking to somebody and having somebody else type it up the answers.

19:51 We got the impression it was Jimmy, he said it was Jimmy so you know knowing Jimmy in the Russell's I'm inclined to believe it was Jimmy.

19:58 That said if it wasn't Came party person, they did a great job of acting like a human being and stepping up. Yeah, yeah, it's got I'm sure. I don't know, it'd be kind of funny. I've never seen Jimmy in front of a computer before. So I don't I don't know how what is kind of like words per minute is that he can crank out to answer because I'm sure that the form was just blasting at that point. Yeah,

20:18 well, the nice thing is the way the way we do ama is because we understand that, you know, Jimmy probably is not a lightning typer. And you know, he's a busy guy. So we like to field questions in advance. And we like to say, you know, for a week, we're going to take questions, and then we compile them in a Google Doc, and we send it to them, and then they get to kind of sit down and think about it and give us, you know, really meaty answers, and then they send it back to us when we post them so that that kind of helps us a lot of forums do it live, which is great for people who love computers and just want to sit and type all day but for master distillers who have 10,001 things to do in a single day. It works really well for us to field questions, then we get to, you know, there's always like, would you rather fight like 100 duck sized horses or a horse sized duck and like, okay, that's fun, but you know, We've got bigger questions. So it kind of helps us give them good information and show respect for their time. And then in turn, they do the same for us. Oh, for sure.

21:07 So, you know, you kind of ask that you kind of put that in there as a typical question, talk more about like, a little bit of the culture, when people ask these type of questions, or when people are giving responses, like, Is it a, you'd mentioned that it's pretty pretty welcoming? And I'm sure you got there's always a few bad apples in the bunch, but kind of talk about the culture and what it is to make sure that you can kind of skirt a little bit of that behavior that that doesn't actually provide any real you know, good meat to the subject. Yeah, so

21:40 the, the Reddit, you know, the Reddit culture is, is probably I like to think of it as a little more serious than Facebook. I think Facebook, you know, no fault of Facebook is a little more casual and people, you know, love to post their jobs and stuff. Reddit really focuses on being kind of a more technical area, and we see that a lot in the kind of people in the posts we get. Because, you know, moderators aren't responsible for making the majority of the content, we just kind of see what goes on. And, and really, as long as people seem to know what they want out of the subreddit, and don't just show up and say, like, recommend me a bourbon, you know, that's not going to get good answers. In fact, you know, I would probably prepare a little snark on the side for that, too. But, you know, the the subreddit itself is really good at you know, saying, hey, person, you know, whether you're here to write a review, whether you're here to ask a well informed question, you know, by the way, here's the search bar, we've probably answered this 100 times. You know, the first time you're asking this is probably the hundred and first time that we're hearing this. So, you know, we go through the work to make really nice posts, like, you know, why don't we just, we'll just nudge over the search bar, and hopefully, you'll find what you want, and if not, then post a question. But the subreddit overall I think, is pretty wholesome. You know, we have our own little flame wars and people getting Spats because, you know, ultimately, bourbon is a hobby of passion. You know, you spend a lot of money on a product that you know, is made by a huge commercial company for the most part, and everyone's got their tastes and you know, after two or three dreams, everyone's fired up. About usually nothing so, but on the whole, in whole, the, you know, the subreddit as a whole is very welcoming and very valuable and I think seeks to really spend a lot of time to make sure that people get good information as long as they put an effort to receive

23:12 it. You know, you hit the topic on the search bar and some stuff. You know, there's, there's a very valuable document that you all have that I tend to share with people a lot, because there's one thing that having this podcast, we get emails all the time and, and I'm sure that anybody is looking and really getting the bourbon, and they're planning the next vacation. The first thing they ask is, what should I do on the bourbon trail? Oh, my God. And I'm sure that you all had so many of those questions that you just said, screw it. We're going to make a sticky we've got a we've got a living Word document and that's what people can point people to.

23:49 Yeah, and it's is it crazy to I got to point out one user, I can always, every time you know, I scroll through new I hit New and I see new posts. It's like we're going to the bourbon trail and I'm like, I know that if I open this up refractions going to have you know, a comment with 100 posts that link to you know, hey people that have been the bourbon trail and also here's a document you know, that's a hugely routine thing again and it is nice being able to have a document that we update to point people to because ultimately you know everyone forgets to stop or two as opinions but you know, here's all the information Google Doc printed out stick on your dashboard and go

24:21 Yeah, I mean, I've I've used that as for people that are asking for recommendations, I'm just like, Listen, I don't have time to sit here write it all out, go check out this document and then ask me any further questions if you need some help narrowing it down because it's it's got a lot of information there about places you know, basically what you can expect to get and every visitor experience you know, just a lot of really good information that was baked into it.

24:44 Oh, good. Well, I'm glad it's useful. Yeah, we it really is a joy to just see posts and be like all right, we got a document we know you're going to love it. We know you probably didn't look at the sidebar because nobody looks at the sidebar. So

24:54 it's so you know, another thing about the you know, as we're touching the culture here, and I mentioned it At the top of the show was the whole, like anonymous factor, it's, it's a little bit different when you go to Facebook and you have to have a profile. Most of the time, people are only allowed into groups when they have been on Facebook for X amount of months or X amount of years. So there's not a whole lot of like, fake profiles in there that are, you know, either spamming or they're trying to trade crap or anything like that. However, it's a little bit different on the on the Reddit side, so kind of talk about the the idea of wanting to continue to stay anonymous and not really be really forthcoming with with who you are in this type of form.

25:43 Oh, sure. So one of the benefits on you know, you know, Reddit is almost completely the opposite of Facebook in that respect you on Facebook, you can find out, you know, where someone went to second grade if you care enough and the person's care was enough and I think that's great for people who want to connect and be friends and You know, you don't care where your information goes and read it on the other side, you know, you're on Facebook, because you want to be on Facebook. And while you're on Facebook, you find things that interest you and read, it's kind of the opposite you go to read it because you want a specific thing, unless you're bored and drunk on a Saturday night, and you go to random and just find random subreddits. But typically, if you're going to read it, and you're not just trying to burn some time, like if I have a question, you know, you know, a Linux question I'm going to go to sent us if I've got a question about cars, I'm going to go to our cars. You know, if I got a question about bourbon, boom, I'm in our bourbon. And so that's kind of our identifying factors that everyone is here at have some interest in bourbon. And we get to bond over that. And people get to, you know, kind of push out things, you know, you can't tell a person's political views and you can't tell you know, where they work or if you dislike the way they look, or if you know, you're tired of seeing, you know, 100 pictures of their kids every day because they have a new toddler and they just can't stop posting photos. You know, read it really cuts out everything that isn't, hey, I'm here because I care about this topic. And that's kind of where we all linked from, and that's something I think is valuable because people Feel for better and for worse and certainly, I think mostly for the better, but certainly for the worst of times that you know, you can be free and open and you can have people in the industry who maybe don't want you to know that they're in the industry but have something really valuable to contribute because they don't have to say, you know, you know, hey, I'm chip Tate, like and everyone's gonna go who you know about down Wayne's World, you know, we're not worthy. You know, you can just be an honest human being and I think that's huge for Reddit, especially since there's all these reviews and, you know, sure, you can have some biagio shell, you know, right and stuff, but people pick up on that really well. And, you know, you can tell that the guy that sat down and written 100 reviews cares about bourbon, if you're going to talk to him, you know, he's going to care about bourbon, I want to talk to you. And that's one of the biggest things I think that we gained from kind of the Reddit anonymity is the fact that, you know, we all show up because we want to talk about bourbon or Oh, you know, I run into this guy in our sandwiches, okay, we like sandwiches in bourbon, you know, you know, stuff like that, but

27:55 there really is a subreddit for anything that isn't there.

27:57 Oh my God every day like I found one it was called critters Cappy buyers and I was like, Oh my God, who knew that was the thing. And sure enough, you know, we got ducks and chickens and stuff like sitting on top of caffee bio. So there's truly is a subreddit and if you can't think of it, The fun thing about Reddit is you get to start your own, you know, my buddy Tex, Tex a sir who's another mod, you know, said, you know, there's, there's a subreddit called shower thoughts, but what about those thoughts you had after you had, you know, a couple extra Bourbons. So he created drunk genius and just like that, you've created a whole area that people can come and find stuff that you have in common with them. So I think that's probably one of reddits greatest assets, especially in terms of anonymity is you know, that whoever showed up wants to show it because they want to talk about the thing that you, you know, you want to talk about and not because you have the same alumni or you know, stuff like that.

28:41 Do you think that it ever plays a role in in kind of being the bad side of being anonymous because whether it's somebody that posts a review, or whether there's a news story, and people can they can be downright cruel, right? It's the internet And so are there times when like, that just doesn't play in the favor of what you're all trying to do.

29:06 Yeah, that's definitely a thing because everyone feels empowered when they're anonymous. And we hope that people feel empowered for the better. But we all have bad days, we all have a little too much to drink sometimes, or some of us are just really nasty people. So it's very simple for people to take advantage of a hugely powerful tool, which is anonymity and just being upright, you know, just be rude about and be mean about it. And I have to commend my film on we do a really good job of staying on top of people like that, and we kind of know over time that, you know, hey, I think this guy's just here to cause trouble or, you know, this thirds gotten that and like, let's we need to shut that down because it is easy to get off topic and people are passionate about a lot of things besides bourbon and bourbon can often connect people who have other mutual likes or dislikes and sometimes they like to duke it out on a thread about, I don't know Buffalo Trace where it makes no sense at all. So there are definitely cases where anonymity serves us for the worst. And that's people who, you know, people who just who just want to tear down anybody's day and they choose our corner of the internet to do it and we don't see it a lot and we get trolls from time to time and we get members from other forums who maybe disagree with the way the sub is run, but for the most part, I'd say you know, 90% of interaction is overwhelmingly positive.

30:18 Mm hmm. And, you know, the one thing that that I do see that happens in the Reddit world that is different than Facebook, is that it's kind of like a like a no bullshit mentality that goes into it. You know, if I if I think of like one of the first forums that I joined back on Facebook, you know, Wade Woodard was the mod for it and it was it was buy sell trade, no discussion, no, nothing like if you messed up like you're booted. And, and so the one thing that we kind of see that happens in a lot of the Facebook forums now is that in most of these are there in the discussion forums. Sometimes they're in the foresail forums. They'll post a picture of a gun next to it. And then everybody just goes eight shit, right? Like, yeah, yeah, in. I mean, do you all have those problems to where people like they post something like that and then all of a sudden it just it's a spew of like a political battle underneath of it?

31:18 Yeah, we get stuff like that pretty frequently, especially in recent times, you know, there was a President Trump's, you know, tariff wars and bourbon is affected, you know, and I get it, you know, it's a political thing. You know, a politician has said, I'm going to weaponize tariffs, and then boom, you know, Bourbons effect and suddenly everybody in their mother is forgotten that we're here because of bourbon and talking about how bad politics are. And we and we get that we understand there's often overlap, but yeah, sometimes spreads like that we get a lot of, you know, appears by DRAM and in the background or 900 guns like okay, you know, maybe some thought should have gone into composing a picture and we do get people that like to show off stuff like that, and that's a prime candidate for whiskey porn, which is kind of a post all you know, maybe not A big discussion and I'm a mod there too. So I get to strike down some of the, you know, people who get really, really angry there as well. But there's definitely a lot of overlap. And we get a lot of posts like that or you know, or even like one of the commenters, you know, Kendrick Pennington has said, you know, people who just want to show up and trade off the the, you know, antique collection they got last year, and we have to kind of, you know, kill that too, because some things we're just not allowed to have on the site. And some of the things we deem don't fit within kind of the spectrum of what the subs trying to do. So, there's there's a lot of objective rules we found, and there's some subjective ones as well, that we as mods kind of to say, you know, I don't think this fits a serious bourbon, you know, subreddit and we have to yank it.

32:38 Yeah. And I guess kind of, kind of expand on that, too, because there was at one point, I believe there were sales that you could do in some of the the forums. I know, somebody talked about scotch swap. I'm sure there was a bourbon swap, but kind of talked about, you know, what crackdown happen if you were around at that time?

32:57 Yeah. So um, so Buying and selling was always a no go. That was always a you can't trade money for alcohol. And that was a Reddit rule. And it was also kind of a, you know, hey, what we do on scotch swap is kind of already in the gray area, right? Like it's not, you know, it's probably wrong. It's probably not right. But it's small scale, and we all trust each other and it's friendly things. So we let it slide and, and that works great. Scott swap was for bourbon, it was for you know, it was for scotch to a lot of people, you know, rums and a GAVI and mezcal and back canara and stuff like that, and you could find some really fun stuff and, you know, we do giveaways and we'd have people sign up for you know, like a round robin like blind Easter thing, right arranged, you know, 300 people would sign up and they'd send a mystery to a partner that didn't know they were getting stuff and it was a super fun thing, but right as Reddit got bought, I want to say it was last April, maybe late March, they decided that it was against their terms of service, and quite frankly, and we're still pretty salty about it, but they they decided that they just had to shut it down and they gave nobody any notice. One day, I remember I was in a meeting because I went from no PMS and I have a smartwatch to getting like, I got like 75 pounds in like 10 minutes. And I was like, Oh my god, and then I logged on to see that Yeah, they just did band scottsbluff. And they said, Hey, guys, you know, we're we don't care to tell you why. And we can't tell you the rules about it. And actually, not not Can't we just won't like we're not going to give you the time of day but it's against the rules now. So we banned it so sorry, you know, screw you get out of here. And then it was kind of obsessed after that to interpret what the rules meant. Like because we sold whiskey inventory would people would post other bottles and people would pm each other. And since then we figured out that Reddit has bots, the crawls through people's inboxes so they are reading your mail. So if you're asking people about swaps privately, you're going to get the hammer and it took me probably eight months until I posted no getting ready to do this here is bourbon, a single barrel at New riff, you know, I actually got banned for three days because he said whoa, you know, we thought your China private, you know, even though I had all the information that said hey, here's a retail They're licensed, here's our distiller their license, you know, we're not handling any sales, we're not handling any swaps we're going to let people buy from an approved retailer. I mean, it took probably a whole week I was offline, just trying to get an admin to talk to me to give me information and say, like, Hey, we jumped through all the hoops you gave us like, why Sue? Can't you do your job. So that was a hugely turbulent time, too, because a lot of people only came to read it to try and you know, trade bottles, and some of them still come back to do that. And we have to say, you know, new, new, new, new, new, new, new new, you know, those are the old days, and we get why they had to do it, you know, you got venture capitalists and you want to make ad money and you want to make money and, you know, adult sending each other booze probably isn't good for you know, whatever brand is trying to give you millions of dollars. So, stuff like that. So it's, it was definitely an interesting time. And it's something that we still real from because, you know, sometimes users just get banned and we have to like figure out why and, you know, I have to poke an admin and be like, Hey, buddy, like, like, can you like at least explain it because like, we got 90,000 people like we just want them to be well informed. I want to give them good information I want to know for myself because last thing I want to do is get banned for trying to help the community by doing, you know, single barrels for you know, subreddits stuff. So that was definitely a there was some lost sleep on that one. Yeah, it

36:12 sounds like it that was lost sleep or do you finally get some sleep because you're like a I got seven days off.

36:17 It was it was weird because I was like, um, you know, and the other thing is once you're banned, right, like, you can't talk to moderators. So I can't be like, Hey, guys, I was banned, but I'm working on it, you know, you're just kind of like gone, which is, you know, for something kind of a bad you know, kind of backfires a little bit when you don't know anything about anybody else. You just know that you like to moderate bourbon together, it makes it hard to kind of keep things together and be like, you know, I wasn't trying to do something illegal. It's just nobody knows why I got banned. So you know, there was some relaxing, it's always good to get away from the internet. I try and take a week or two each year to just you know, know reviews, do some computing on my own, go to a lake drink a couple beers and stuff like that. But yeah, that was an interesting time.

36:57 Yeah, in you. You just mentioned something as well. So Like how big this community is, I'm looking at it right now. It's creeping up on as the date of this recording 93,000 members. We're talking at 5:34pm on a on a Wednesday afternoon and there's 478 people online. So that looks

37:16 that looks right. I see. 92 449

37:18 Yeah, so I mean it's it's it's really getting up there. So what kind of, you know, what, what kind of growth rate have you all been seeing, say like an by month or by year or anything like that? With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon, who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner it starts a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that has been finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is is you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rackhouse whiskey club rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer their December box which will ship in time for Christmas features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership, shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rackhouse whiskey club com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. What defines the similar 291 Colorado whiskey is it spirit passion permeates every sip, since day one distillery 291 distillers from grain to barrel to bottle by hand, distinctive Colorado whiskey utilizing grains from the college planes and water collected from Pikes Peak reservoirs to 91. Colorado whiskey is handmade the Colorado way. Everything matters to 91 Colorado whiskey has earned bushels of national and international awards for its spirits with the unique character in the flavor of a bygone era. Named world's best Brian 2018 by World whiskey awards, seven liquid gold from Jim Murray's whiskey Bible 291 Colorado whiskey embodies the traditions of the past, married with the boldness of the future. Find a bottle near you at 291 Colorado whiskey.com write it like you stole it, drink it like you own it, live fast and drink responsibly. You know what kind of growth rate have you all been seeing say like an by month or by year or anything like

39:49 that. So just just because everybody needed one more source to tell them Bourbons definitely a hot thing right now. We're seeing bigger growth, especially in the last couple of years. Since hopped on the Help mode. We're growing faster than any other alcohol subreddit right now we're growing faster than our scotch, which was previously were like, Whoa, this the scotch thing, gangbusters. You know, people people really like it. Our bourbon is screaming past that right now. And I think you mentioned it by the time this hits the air, we will be well over 100,000 subscribers. And we've got some fun stuff lined up. I won't talk about it, because it'll already have come to fruition. But, uh, yeah, we get about 100 subs a day right now.

40:28 That's, that's impressive. That's a lot. That's a lot going on for people that are just trying to tune in and, and be a part of it. And I would kind of imagine that there's, it's like any form, there's, there's probably more lurkers than there are people that are actually contributing. So, I mean, what's the it's probably it's probably a smaller percentage. But I guess when we start thinking about let's let's kind of change the topic because we talked about reviews a little bit. What are some of those topics that that sort of come out that really get a lot of upvotes? A lot of comments. stuff like that, that really kind of spark a conversation.

41:04 So I found that there's, there's, there's four posts that really, if you if you see a high karma post, it either fits into one of four categories, I think it's the first category is it as a review of some hyper expensive unicorn or just really super rare product which, which kind of makes sense? like everyone's like, Oh, you know, on the total opposite and you got reviews of like, the absolute worst whiskey that has ever existed and people gotta feel bad taken out, which, which is fun, because, like, you know, do you truly know what the best bourbon is until you've tried some really bad ones? And a lot of people are kind of agree with that. And, you know, we'll try stuff like, you know, like, there was a bacon flavored bourbon that, you know, shouldn't have been called the bourbon, whatever. But you know, bacon flavored whiskey and everyone's like, that is truly terrible, and you've confirmed our suspicions like, here's enough. The third category of posts is like, hey, we've got a lot of dedicated people who love to watch the TTP website. And those people you know whether they follow skew on Twitter or whether they're just kind of trolling through the website and they say hey, here's the post, this new label was just approved and you know, and the label being approved isn't a guarantee that the project will come to fruition but you know that a brand is thinking about that product you know, we get the inclination that brands actually watch our bourbon from time to time and sometimes, you know, if people react well we see those products and people react viciously you know, either we still see those products and then we laugh at them or we don't see those products at all. And you know, we don't know how untangle that is but people love to see you know, what may be coming down the pipe which is super fun too, because, you know, products every day need release new products and we want to know when we can buy them and the first step to buying them as thing that they've been approved. And finally, the fourth post is kind of just discussion posts or people who take a lot of time like, like wild bird one on ones, you know, his or so I remember one one, Wild Turkey, you know, his exhaustive timeline on you know, wild turkey or we have posts from people like koumori or some chemists who like you know, step up to talk about Things like, you know, chemical compositions of bourbon over time, or lead into cancers or people that really show that like, Hey, I think Bourbons cool but like, let's delve into some super niche topic. And I'm going to give you a hugely vetted, well sourced, you know, document about this phase of bourbon and we try and gather a lot of those, whether it's through one of the moderators, you know, posts of the month, or we killed them, or they end up on the sidebar, but those are kind of the four big posts that make up the majority of really popular posts. And in between, we have people who want to know where they can find blends every single day, you know, people who, you know, you know, you see a lot of reviews that are, you know, that aren't poorly received, you know, they don't get a million upvotes but people you know, you'll see that they have 30 or 40 comments where people are just saying you know, Hey, thanks for for reviewing and I like this too. What do you think about this other project now this other product or expression line and then people talk about that? So

43:53 yeah, I mean, I think that we see, we see kind of a difference in the the Facebook and the Reddit world like in the Facebook world. Nobody posts the reviews. And if you do, there's usually as you mentioned earlier, like 5050 chips underneath it, and everybody's just either making fun of them or tell them they don't know crap or whatever, right. So there's, there's definitely like a difference in the culture there were like, reviews and Facebook, like people just don't want to read them there. Whereas in Reddit world, it's very encouraged. And so it's, it's, it's fun to kind of see that however, you know, me just lurking, I always see the ones that have the most karma the most comments or anything like that. Definitely those discussion posts. The ones that really kind of, like, you know, archit somebody or the ama's or something like that, too. Yeah, but there is one thing that I always find what find funny, and I'll ask you, maybe you don't have a good answer, but it seems like a lot of people on Reddit, they really hate Fred MiniK. What's, what's up with that?

44:54 Ah,

44:55 um, it's funny. You mentioned that and I think Fred's a good guy, but um, I think that I can understand why a lot of people dislike him and, and I'll try and give a voice to that. And I understand that I definitely won't embody what most people have an issue with Fred and you know, and people have a lot of different reasons. Maybe some people just don't like his Ascot and I get that some people just aren't asked got people, you know, I'm more of a necktie guy, but, you know, MiniK has done a lot of work for the bourbon world. And I think that, you know, while he deserves a lot of credit for that, I think he also gives himself a little, little extra credit on the side as being you know, hey, I'm the voice of bourbon, you know, bourbon isn't, you know, hey, the voice of millions of people who like this drink, but I am the voice of bourbon and it is it is my bourbon given duty that I should convert everybody that doesn't like bourbon. And if they don't like bourbon, I should tell them about this other project I love called rum because I also want to be the face of rum. And I think that's good. You know, you got to make money and you got to write books. And it's good to have things to write books about the people also, like you know, because if you read a book that people don't care about them, they don't buy the book and you don't have a house. So it's a complex issue because it's a passion and some of us choose, you know, like Mr. That, you know, Bourbons passion, I want to keep it a passion. So, you know, no money, no Patreon, you know, here's all the info for free. And I'll just give it to you how it is. And I think that a lot of people while they respect that, you know, he's an author kind of seemed taken advantage of the landscape a little bit, and I would probably agree with them and whether whether it's founded or not, books take a ton of effort, and I respect people that have the attention span to write books, you know, I write white papers for work all the time. And, you know, that's about as far as I get. That's, you know, that's enough attention for one day. But uh, you know, I think a lot of it comes down to kind of casually using the spirit and just saying, you know, hey, drink what you like, which is great, that's exactly how you should drink it. But these are the brands I think your best. And I think some of these articles kind of trivialize stuff by saying, you know, these are the best experts or these are the, you know, this is now the Pappy of rum, which like good. Yeah, you know, if I hear the Pappy of anything anymore, someone the other day told me this was the Pappy of servers and I just wanted to punch them to like HR was right there. I can understand it because a lot of people spend a lot of time on Reddit saying, if you come to me with an informed question, I will give you an informed answer. And I will respond to every question you have, simply because I love bourbon. And I get that and I feel that and I know that bourbon is always for a lot of people, and it's a career for Fred and so I can kind of understand that the people who like to rip on Fred probably don't align in perspective with what they're trying to accomplish with bourbon, you know, the people who relax with bourbon, it's their passion, probably won't see it with a guy who makes all of his money on bourbon. So that that's kind of my read on why people hate them. And, you know, I won't say they hate them. But, you know, he is an easy target. And I don't know if it's because he's, you know, he's, he's pretty, he's pretty available. You see him on Twitter, you know, you see him on Facebook, you see him, you know, across the Internet, and so, people always attack and easy target and I think that he's an incredibly easy target because he is sort of the face of bourbon, whether we like it or not, and the face of bourbon makes it easy to punch. So it's for better for worse. I think it's kind of a product popularity but I think there's also drawbacks with kind of taking something that can be so complex and boiling it down and saying, hey, these three brands are the pappi of X, Y, and Z because on the backside that threw me some dollars.

48:13 I can't get speak for the dollars part. But you know, I think we always try to tell for it because, you know, he's, he's, he's got his thick skin now he's, he's kind of immune to it. But he, he works on Reddit every single day. So he pays attention to a lot of stuff and, and we always send them things, you know, and, and we always, we always tell them because we'll send them things and we get people bashing them, or making fun of them or something like that. But we always were always like, hey, Fred, you see this? And he's like, thanks, guys. No, I didn't but now I know. I did. Yeah, yeah. But we always tell them like it's a good thing, man. Like that means you made it like if Yeah, really hating what you do. It's because you know, you hustled your ass off, and you're trying to make this happen, right like nobody else. Literally, there's nobody else in bourbon that's doing what you're doing. And it's not like you're a distiller, you can't pump out a product, you got to figure out the ecosystem around it.

49:07 Yep. And honestly, you know, people you know, there's almost seven circles of bourbon hell and I think Fred MiniK exists in one but like, I don't know, like, last spirits guy and course their distillery in garrison brothers and brands like terapy are in total line, they exist in a completely different one. And I think that if you're going to live in a you know, circle of bourbon now, it's better to be in the one that Fred's and then the one that, you know, we would consider like, you know, the lowest of the low and the garbage producers and people who just you know, don't give a shit. So, you know, it's a product of success. And I think that if you can find funding that, you know, that's absolutely what you got to do, otherwise, you're going to be miserable. And, you know, it's not about being miserable.

49:45 Absolutely. I think it also shows a lot of restraint from Fred to actually not get on there and like say anything to anybody because I know I know he's on there versus You know, when somebody ever says anything, it has something about bourbon pursuit. I'm always either respond like Hey, like we tried doing this or blah blah blah like trying to justify my existence there. So the he definitely does a good job resisting that.

50:07 Yeah, I'd agree and just like anything else, you know, you know, once you put a lot of time and then you're going to meet people that like what you do and you're going to meet just as many or more people that hate what you do and honestly if the people that hate what you do make you stop doing what you like to do, then you've only made the people hate what you do happy so

50:23 it's so the the whiskey category in Reddit is is pretty large. And we just mentioned earlier, you know, creeping up right now this 93,000 members with inside of the bourbon subreddit, but you know, there's one thing that if anybody that's kind of like unfamiliar with Reddit like there's, there's this the front page of Reddit like that's where like the top news and everything happens. Has there ever been anything in the whiskey category, even our bourbon that has ever been in like front page of Reddit?

50:53 Honestly, I can't tell you that there's been an hour bourbon post and most of that is because many years ago, it was very easy. Get to the front page of Reddit because Reddit restricted how many upvotes a post could actually get sued, see popular posts on Reddit top out at like 1500 or 2000 or 3000 votes. And since they lifted that restriction, it takes like 30 4050, you know, to hide 25,000 of votes to, to get to the front page of Reddit, that's great for communities that have hundreds of thousands or you know, even millions of subscribers and, and honestly, 92,000 people isn't the biggest separate in the world and the fact that, you know, we constantly don't have content that people are going to post, you know, 1 million people aren't going to post this to Facebook, you know, this link to this, this lady falling out of the bed of a truck because you know, this dog that looks real cute in a stroller. Those things just appeal, you know, and honestly, as a person who loves dogs, like, you know, give me a dog video and I guarantee you know, half the world loves dogs, but only one in every thousand people love bourbon. So it's kind of expected and honestly, we I think that at least Personally, I enjoy that. We get people who want to come to us, you know, or people who find us through other Whiskey subreddits are people who find whiskey people, you know, people who are also into whiskey and say, hey, go check out this place on Reddit. Like I'm telling people all the time at work like, Oh, you live Reddit like, and you love whiskey, like, go check out these subs, but we don't have the kind of reach where something's gonna hit the front page. And then we'll get a, you know, 30,000 subs in a day of people who are just kind of stopping by and I think that actually really helps bring up a lot of value in the subreddit because the people who come and find us are the people who wanted to find us. And that honestly keeps up more riffraff. And so talk about your life as a mod real quick, like the amount of time that you're you're pushing to actually take care of the discussions? Is it is there a fire drill every single day? Or is it like okay, like we can, you know, wait every other week, you know, what's that kind of like? So I'm moderating. I moderate a lot of subreddit. So our Bourbons definitely one of the biggest if not the biggest, so it's kind of hard to break our bourbon out separately. I think I moderate like 2021 subreddit. Some of them are smaller. Some of them nobody care about some of them are mine. That's just like, hey, if you just want to review and no discussion, no bullshit, go to the sub, and you'll just get one review a day, whatever, you know. But like our bourbon is actually pretty passive. I mean, I probably remove five to eight posts a day. I know that other moms probably removed the same and those are always like, like, Look, I found two bottles, the Blanton's $400, you know, which just doesn't fit through all the stuff. So it's got to go or like, Hey, this is you know, this news article was posted seven times today and this, you know, the sixth the first one, they got to go, you know, and that's just a rule thing. And sometimes I get like, Oh my god, that dude is being an asshole. Oh, he's got to go, you know, and get to remove stuff like that. But overall, it's, you know, I probably spend two to three hours a day moderating Reddit, probably, you know, 20 hours a week, it goes up and down, especially when the fall hunter comes. Oh, man, the fall hunt season, you know, takes a couple extra hours, but it's certainly no full time job and it's certainly one that, you know, I'm doing passively. I'm checking my phone, you know, before a meeting starts from in the hallway, I get to my desk and I see like Oh, you know, my toolboxes said, Hey 10 people reported this post once you go take a look at it and stuff like that. So it's, you know, it's certainly, it's a lot of work, but it's work I enjoy doing because I would already be on the subreddit anyways, so I may as well give back and help make it a better place. So that way other people come and find it like, Oh, you know, this is a cool place. I'm going to stick around.

54:18 Alright, so you intrigued me talk about fall like it because I guess I haven't been paying attention to it and fall so what's what's the bad news that happens there? What's the the influx of post like,

54:30 oh, man, so if there was a meme to describe it, it would definitely be that Game of Thrones meme. And it would say that Pepe is coming. And it starts like early August and like, because like, first off like we see the labels, so you know, like, who, who, you know, next round of Pappy it's been approved or the next round of antique collection. And then like early September, everyone and their mother who has a blog that has more than a few followers gets their free samples, they post some stuff for their posts and stuff on Instagram and people repost that to bourbon. So then then, kind of the hype Comes that's where we get lots of people you know like you know oh my god it's going to be super expensive I won't see any we get a bunch of posts that are kind of just you know kind of bothered like hey I love bourbon I think I deserve it but there's only so much and I know I won't get it so I'm gonna make a post to complain which is fine but you know we get probably 10 of those a day and then there's the other like, like oh you know I have my stores that I went to but this year I don't get any and then we kind of creep up to the point where like states start to get releases and then like, like, oh my god all hell breaks loose like you gotta keep posting like, Oh my god, I got one or like, Hey, I found in Arkansas, you know, and we have to remove stuff like that because it's against the rules and like the other people you know, the people who don't live you know, and live in any other state that's not Arkansas, it doesn't relevant you know, and then we get people who were complaining that you know, this guy got two bottles and I got no bottles and then it becomes bottle, bottle, bottle. Bottle porn or it's just like, here's all 99 bottles of antique collection I got this year because I know a guy and it kind of goes on until like, like Christmas and for like two days around Christmas. We say like Post what ever you want, because we know everybody got bourbon for Christmas, and they just want to tell everybody else about it.

56:06 So the floodgates just are just wide open.

56:08 And us as moderators, I'm kind of like, I just want to sit by a Christmas tree and like not remove every single post that comes in today. And we all like kind of like nod and agree and like, all right, you know, for two days, we'll let people have their fun. And for the rest of the year, there's whiskey porn, where we encourage all those posts. So, you know, we're not really suppressing people, but around, you know, if we want to promote a subreddit that's filled with good and concrete information that helps the majority of people on the internet, you know, telling us that you found you know, two bottles of Eagle rare at the little corner store behind a Dunkin Donuts and Arkansas just isn't going to cut it. So that's typically the majority of the information we see is just everyone losing their goddamn minds over Pappy and antique collection.

56:51 It's funny that people like are so happy to like share their scores, like most of the time you think like don't don't don't tell anybody about it right? Like, oh yeah, what you want to keep the some of your some of your secret's safe. Because if soon as you started telling which retailers are selling it for which prices like it's your honey halls god man, that's just that's just that's just bourbon honey one on one there for you.

57:13 And that's been the thing since like day one too and I've kind of never gotten it either and people and like, like there are generally people who just want like nothing but good and they're like, Hey, there was 10 blends, and I got one and I save nine for all you know everyone else in the world because everyone deserves to get it. But I'm going to post on the internet. But there are 99,000 lurkers who just want to like take all my shit and like, buy it all and they want to buy all nine. And you know, and they just don't understand that like, Hey, we know you tried to do an awesome thing and we super appreciate it. We we sure would like if you hung around because nice people are nice, but like, you know, if you if you actually post this, you're not going to help anybody but the people who wouldn't turn around and do the favor for you. And that's kind of a tough lesson to teach me and be like, you know, cuz you never want to be like, hey, you were really nice. Now knock it off, you know, which is kind of a tough lesson. But yeah, it is interesting too, because some people just Like, Hey, I got 27 bottles of Pappy and we're like, Yay, here's an upvote. And then like, you know, it blends into the sea of everyone else that has too much money about 20,000 bottles of Pappy. And it goes up to say,

58:11 Well, I think if somebody posted 27 bottles they probably more downvotes and they get upvotes

58:18 it's actually crazy. We got one guy on whiskey porn and the fun thing about whiskey porn is it's kind of like, it's like our bourbon, but completely opposite, like pretty much anything is allowed and, and you can post your stash and you can post fake recipes that you think are funny. And like there's only two rules of whiskey part and the first rule is that the mods can do whatever they want. And the second rule is that there are no other rules so there's like it shenanigans. It's just straight up shenanigans all the time and we had one guy who posted the most beautiful whiskey library I've ever seen it yet every limited edition bottle that could possibly exist. And then he dropped one little simple sentence that like made the entire world tear itself to pieces and that was I bought this all but I don't drink.

58:55 Oh, wow.

58:56 And I have never seen an army of people act like Armageddon was was upon us and just like leave all shred of humanity behind them and just like be like, Oh, yes. And just like dive right in. I mean, we left it up for a long time because it was just so funny. But at the end, we're like, like, what did this guy think was going to happen? Like, possibly like, What? What did you think was going to occur in this thread? So that's a fun story from the other side of moderating.

59:20 Yeah, I mean, because you think about it from from an aspect of like, you're here as a whiskey enthusiastic and you see it, you're like, oh, wow, that's incredible. This is amazing. And then this guy's like, now this is this is an investment. I'm not touching. I'm not drinking any of this. Yeah, so of course, he's gonna piss a lot of people off in the process because yeah, I mean, I know a lot of us we'd say like, yeah, let's crack it open. whiskeys baby drink. And then well, those are like $3,000 bottles, this, you're not drinking that. Unless you're you're really bankrolling it, that's for sure.

59:50 Yeah, you know, there's always some guy that rolls in with 10 bottles of custom Hibiki, 30 or whatever. And we're like, well, this will end well but like, go ahead, you know, it So

1:00:00 I guess last question, you know, when when people are posting, like, is it is there? Is there a gate where you all actually have to prove things before they're posted to the Reddit? Or are you mean? Or do you get a notification for every new post, and then you figure it out and you're like, Okay, x, checkbox, whatever it's going to be.

1:00:16 So it's actually kind of interesting because Reddit, Reddit says, Hey, we love you moderators, we want to make your job super easy, because we don't pay you and we make you do all this work for no reason at all. And then they give us the most garbage set of tools I've ever seen in my life to moderate so we literally, and I'll give you a quick day in moderating. I wake up and I refresh Reddit, and I go to our bourbon, and I go, there's a lot of new posts, and I looked at them individually and go, huh, that doesn't block, right remove it, you know, that doesn't want remove it. And sometimes, you know, if people report stuff and say, Hey, this breaks the rules, you should know about it, you know, I get a little flag, but, you know, I don't get a push notification that says, hey, you know, nine people have said that this is a garbage thread, right? It kind of kind of assumes that you'll see things as you prefer. Your subreddit, which is fine, but subreddits are popular and it takes work and, and honestly, we get most of our mod help from people who have been like, wow, right it is garbage and is broken half the time. So we're going to make extra tools and make it better. Like, the Reddit mod toolbox is incredible. And I want to buy those people beers every day and the people that make Reddit enhancements sweet also deserve beers and cookies every day because those two extensions really filling all the missing holes. Like if someone reports x, you know, to reports on a post, it'll send me a push notification or my computer will pick up a notification from Chrome that says, you know, people are angry and you should probably go take a look and stuff like that. But, you know, it's free and open. We we want people as long as they don't say, Hey, I'm 14 and I have nine bottles of Turkey Can I drink them all? You know, or people that say hey, I bought all this stuff in 1970 where can I sell it? You know, those posts are pretty automatic. You know, people are really good about reporting those but the rest is just kind of organic sifting and sorting by new and just kind of seeing what rolls in and that really helps us also stay in touch with you know Where's the sub going? Is it going in a direction? We don't like? Are we getting lots of low effort posts? And if they are, then we open a discussion about seeing if we need to tweak a rule or two.

1:02:08 Absolutely. It's all kind of finishes on on one last question. Who do you think has it worse? You You all are Reddit or Facebook mods.

1:02:17 Oh, Facebook was 100%. Yeah. Why was that? Um, I don't know, Facebook's kind of lawless. And like, at least when I go to Reddit, I know that I'm going to see exactly what I want to see when I open up Facebook every single day. It is a Pandora's box of like, you know, it probably helps because I have gold. So Reddit said, Hey, someone gave you enough gold or Hey, you use this app 10 years ago, and you still got gold. We're not going to show you a bunch of ads, but at least they're not in the middle. They're not in my timeline. Like they're not cluttering up you know, different mod toolbar type stuff, you know, and on Facebook, you get people who some people just want to talk and they just want to post comment after comment after comment and they can put in chips and videos and you know, likes and 900 different emojis and read it's pretty comical. People like, Hey, if you're in Reddit, you're going to type in a paragraph. I think the just not the quality of people, but what people expect out of the different ecosystems is entirely different. And thankfully, what people expect out of Reddit, I think, puts a little more onus on the person to make an informed comment or post where Reddit in our Facebook is kind of like a free for all. Or, you know, it's kind of hard to sort through a post when there's 100 gifts in the middle, and I like Jeff, more than anyone else in my work. slack is filled with gifts, and I think it's fun, but, you know, moderating that stuff is just gonna be terrible.

1:03:32 Yeah, that's true. And it's also one of those things where Facebook is not a tool that you can use for searching, or indexing or anything like that. Right? Yeah, it's, it's there for the hour. And then poof, like, you know, nobody you think about it again, unless you really, really remember it. You go to the search bar, and you try to find it.

1:03:49 And like heaven forbid, if you want to find like a really specific elect. And luckily, I mean, Reddit is indexed by Google like, don't get me wrong, Reddit searches hot garbage. It's the old Weller antique of Search bars. Like, if you go to Google and you say, Reddit space, I want to find this thing on this subreddit by this person, you can generally find it pretty quick. And that is kind of a lifesaver, even for me being like, Hey, I think I made a post five years ago that I didn't archive that's not on my site or like, not in the discord or we'll chat all the time. Like, I got to Google it, but I can usually find it within two or three minutes.

1:04:22 Yeah, that's good, at least, at least that's a good that's a good way to kind of end this now. We can try to give people a reason to go and really go check out Reddit if you're not there already, you know, 93,000 members and growing continually, probably more about a time this is going to air. So take I want to say thank you again, for coming on the show today. It was a pleasure to really kind of talk about the culture, the online culture that, you know, Reddit is is really harvesting and it's building and really what it's trying to ultimately accomplish. At the end of its, you know, really the the enthusiastic people, the users, the people that really liked bourbon at the end of the day and and i know You mentioned already, you know, first off, I'm not I'm not a huge Reddit user, but I'm a lurker. I'm posting there every once in a while. But thank you so much for taking the time and moderating because I know that is a a think thankless and painless job. And it takes, as you'd mentioned, hours of your day away. So it's thank you for doing that.

1:05:19 No problem. Thanks for having me on. And thanks for taking the time to talk. And for anyone that comes Tara, you know, don't be afraid to post just maybe, maybe do us a favor and looked at the rules in the search bar. And we'd be happy to have you.

1:05:29 Just like any online forum, read the sticky first.

1:05:32 Yes, please. It'll make me so happy. It'll bring me so much joy.

1:05:36 Good deal. So let's take thank you again, for coming on the show today. It was a pleasure having you and make sure that if you want to get into this, in fact, find a place that can be a home where you can express your own reviews if you want to find a place to be able to do that. So you don't have to launch your own blog or anything like that. You can go to reddit.com slash are slash bourbon. And if you want to make sure that you're following us Cuz a bourbon pursuit we're on Reddit as well every once in a while you'll see a comment from us. But make sure you also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. If you like the show you want to help support the show. You want to be able to be watching the show as it happens live, make sure you support us@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. With that take thank you once again for coming on here

1:06:23 and we'll see everybody next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whiskey Quickie: E.H. Taylor Amaranth Grain of the Gods

Tue, 03 Dec 2019 10:30:32 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a3K9HP7uvA&w=560&h=315]

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review E.H. Taylor Amaranth Grain of the Gods. This non-age stated bourbon is 100 proof and $70 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

229 - Instagram Likes, Pappy vs The Secondary, and Thanksgiving on Bourbon Community Roundtable #39

Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:30:29 GMT

This is the final roundtable for 2019 as we head into the new year. And this one packs a few punches. First, we dive into Instagram news where the number of likes are now hidden from your view. How will it impact bourbon Instagram stars? Then we roll into the meat of the podcast talking about Pappy and Sazerac vs The Secondary Market. Lastly, we share what we are thankful for in 2019. I also want to take this opportunity to say thank you to you, the dedicated listeners and viewers of Bourbon Pursuit. We really appreciate the hours you spend with us every week to hear us talk about bourbon.

Show Partners:

Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com.

Show Notes:

Warehouse X: http://www.experimentalwarehouse.com/
Marianne Eaves at TEDxBroadway: https://www.tedxbroadway.com/talks/2019/11/19/making-the-impossible-and-doing-the-unthinkable-marianne-eaves
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about vintage whiskey collections.
Instagram removes likes. Does this impact bourbon influencers?
Do Instagram posts drive people to your content?
Will the lack of likes deter people from using influencers?
Should Instagram hide the number of followers?
Do you think Sazerac is behind the secondary take down?
Why make the Van Winkles the face of the blame?
Should they raise the SRP of Pappy?
Do you think other distilleries are happy they took action on the secondary market?
What are you thankful for with bourbon in 2019?
Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Nick from BreakingBourbon.com , and Brian from sippncorn.com for joining.

0:00 me think about it if you're like a craft distiller you work your ass off like making it all anyone ever asked like, was it? Did you distill it? Yeah, yeah, we produced it. No Did you distill it?

0:13 Right there the label

0:15 and then and then they then you taste it like oh, that sucks. I'd rather have MGP

0:32 Happy Thanksgiving everybody. It is Episode 229 of bourbon pursuit and I hope you're out there, drinking a little bit of Turkey today and just taking it nice and easy. Now Buffalo Trace just wrapped up its second experiment utilizing its custom made experimental warehouse x. Now this experiment began in 2016 and focus on how temperature affects the aging process. The first experiment ended in 2016. And that one focus on natural like keeping barrels various stages of light for two years. And the second experiment, which just ended a few weeks ago at the end of October, determined how barrel activity correlates with temperature changes, keeping to the four warehouse chambers constant and vary the other two chambers. And throughout the experiment, they track temperature fluctuations from five degrees to 109 degrees Fahrenheit, and monitored the barrel pressures ranging from about negative 2.7 psi to a positive 3.2 psi, in total 9.1 million data points were collected during the second experiment. And now the next experiment will expand on the distilleries temperature experiment by focusing on how temperature and these swings affect whiskey activity in the barrel. And there's gonna be a two year experiment and that's going to begin in late November. Buffalo Trace estimates that it's going to collect more than 70 million data points by the end of this 20 year project. For more information about warehouse texts, you can visit the experimental warehouse.com good friend of the show Marion Eve got it. chance to tell her story on nothing else. But the TED stage. TED talks are a personal favorite of mine. And I feel that she did an absolute amazing job on this. Not only do you get to hear her story of getting into bourbon, working your way up the ranks at Brown Forman, delete for castle and key and her eventual departure from castling key but she really shines a spotlight on bourbon as a whole. It's a 10 minute TED talk that was from TEDx Broadway. And you can watch it with the link in our show notes. This is the final round table for 2019. As we head into the new year, and this one, it packs a few punches, we first dive into the Instagram news where the number of likes are now hidden from your view. And if that's going to impact our bourbon Instagram stars that are out there. Then we roll into the real meat of the podcast talking about Pappy and saceur act versus the secondary market. There's lots of good ideas and theories behind this one. Lastly, we share what we're thankful for in 2019. And I also want to take this opportunity Say thank you to you. We really do appreciate the hours that you spend with us every single week to hear us talk about bourbon. And I hope each and every one of you have a happy Thanksgiving. Now it's time for Joe to tell us a little bit more about barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char.

3:18 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. Find out more at barrell bourbon com.

3:32 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Ian, that bourbon guy on Twitter. Ans what are the top 10 vintage Bourbons everyone must chase on their whiskey journey. That's a great question and it's one I've actually thought a lot about because I like to collect vintage whiskies. For me it all starts with the distilleries you want to have like a whiskey from every distillery that matters to you or every state. For me, I can't speak for everyone else. But I had to have some Mexican bourbon and some Canadian bourbon in my collection. So when I started my hunts, I captured some of those that so these are historic Bourbons that would have been made in these markets before the 1964 declaration of bourbon being a unique product the United States so those are two right off the bat. And the Mexican bourbon was not so good. The Canadian bourbon actually pretty pretty good. And then I have to always have something from national distillers national distillers was really good parent company that used to operate old Taylor and Old Crow they sold to beam in 1987 and Old Crow turned a shit in thankfully says rack acquired old Taylor from beam which was slowly To shit as well. So I always have to have something from national distillers. And then I like to go for my favorite distillers of all time. And that would be someone like Edwin Fudd, or book or know or Lincoln Henderson or Parker beam, you know something that these great legendary iconic distillers would have touched. So that's not really a brand per se, but you got to do your homework to find out where they worked and what they did and what brands they touched on that and so that is that is one tool that I have always used as well, and you got to get something from the 1800s. I mean, it's kind of a it's a difficult acquisition. But if you can find the old bottle from the 1800s you feel pretty special about it. It's a pretty pretty cool feeling when you hold in your hand something that was created during President Benjamin Harrison's time I also like to always have a bottle from stetzer Weller Wild Turkey, old brown Forman products like old old forester from the 1960s the President's choice, and something I'm very fond of as getting those private labels that they used to make. Back in the day places like Macy's and grocery stores, they would all have private labels a bourbon. You're starting to see a little bit of a comeback of this, but it was really popular back in the day. One thing I like to stay away from though are the decanters, especially the Jim Beam decanters because you really never know how much is left in there. You know, some of them might be like too much lead in there, whatever. But there's a lot of decanters that I will not touch of course, that completely contradicts what I'm about to tell you. And that is the Old Crow chespin piece from the 1960s. It was absolutely it's absolutely the greatest bourbon I have ever tasted. And if you've never had the opportunity to taste it, you can go check out a bottle at the Bardstown bourbon company, the library there I curated. So those are really some of my key points when I'm when I'm looking for vintage whiskeys and they're all very personal you got to remember whiskey is is about your own journey as well as the hunt. So find out what it is you like and what stories means something to you and what people meant something to you and go chase them. So that's this week's above the char thanks a lot T and for that great idea and if you have an idea for above the char make sure you hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, or even YouTube now. Just search my name Fred MiniK. Until next week, cheers

7:39 Welcome everybody. It is the bourbon Community Roundtable number 39 and this is bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. This is one of the most favorite times of the podcast especially for us because we get to bring on all our good friends with inside of the community here the best bloggers around some of the best lawyers around that know about bourbon as well. And to be held in accountants. I mean, we got two accounts. Yeah. Got it, we're gonna we're going to start creating our own trade business at the end of this. And not only that is you know, we have people from all around the nation that are joining and watching us live and being a part of this conversation as well. Right now we're sitting around 63 concurrent viewers, hopefully gets 100 by the end of this. But with that, let's go ahead because we've got a whole lot of information to talk about, and I want to kind of get into this. So, Ryan, Fred, here we are again, man. You guys look looking forward tonight.

8:31 Yeah, I think this is a very important discussion to have tonight, and maybe it's one we've all wanted to have.

8:39 What are we discussing?

8:42 What happens what happens when you don't do the homework? Yeah.

8:45 I'm super excited to discuss that too.

8:48 Nice. Nice. Alright, so let's go ahead and round in our first one. So Blake from bourbon or how are you? I'm

8:53 doing well doing well. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, into my introduction. Yeah, I guess it's just our usual thing is usual Alright, I'm Blake from bourbon or if you're watching this you probably already know this is the, you know, longest standing tradition of making the roundtables, like call me the kin, Kendrick. Ken Griffey, also Cal Ripken of the round table but that's a follow me on all the social medias. Bo you are Bo and r.com as well as seal box calm, only have URLs where you have to spell it out and people are caught on What was that again? So seal boxes. Es el ba ch s.

9:36 And you got a new one right Southern barnburner I have that

9:39 one. I don't know. Is that is that you

9:43 know, is there a southern bourbon or out there? Yeah.

9:47 Yeah. Someone's copying you.

9:49 Talk boy hop on those URLs. Blake. Oh, yeah.

9:53 Go ahead and put that cease and desist out.

9:55 I'll get it together tonight.

9:57 You know, speaking of that, the kind of fakes and stuff that Come out there. Remember Ted Finnick? Remember those articles? Yeah, that

10:04 was whatever happened he had like a solid two month run and then all the sudden

10:08 it happens every now and then someone will come out and try to, you know, impersonate me or do some kind of, you know, fun satirical deal. And that's great. I love it. But what they don't realize is if you're going to try to impersonate me You better try to keep up because I go fast and

10:25 they realize like oh man this this is work now like

10:32 I'll just go back to making fun of him and in a Facebook forum you know and that's good

10:38 all right, Brian, you're up next buddy.

10:40 Yeah, thanks guys for having me again is Brian with sip and corn you can find me on the all the socials as sip and corn and you can also find me at bourbon justice calm. Look forward to a good show tonight. Guest

10:51 fantastic and Nick.

10:53 And I'm Nick with breaking bourbon calm. April 1. Breaking vodka calm that's been known to happen. But only that one day. And I can find us on all this socials at breaking bourbon. And thanks again for me on guys.

11:08 Absolutely. It's always great to have all of you on especially everybody else that's here in the chat. So let's go ahead and kind of start with our first question. If people in the chat they have something that they'd like to say with us as well speak now, we're going to be like to be able to put it out there for you. So the first we're going to talk about is the new change that happened with Instagram. Now, this is something that kind of, you know, maybe impacts the bourbon world a little bit, but more or less, just like the influencer market that's out there. So one of the recent changes that happened was they removed the ability to see the amount of likes that an individual has on a specific kind of post. And this can be for a few different reasons. You know, there's a lot of things that you know, you can buy likes out there, that's, that's not unheard of. You can buy followers as well, but one things you really can't buy or, you know, good comments or engagement and stuff like that. So I guess the one thing I'll kind of hand it over to what sir, who has the The most followers I'm it's either between bourbon or breaking who's got the most followers or aging? Probably.

12:05 Yeah, I'd have to check. I think we're just under 70,000

12:08 Yeah, okay.

12:12 I got 7070

12:16 Yeah, there's there's no thousand after it,

12:18 you'll get it. I mean, you know, I'll say this you know, our, it's all 100% organic we we've never gotten into, you know, anything where you sign up to get followers in some way, we pretty much just post What we want to talk about what we're drinking. We try to keep it light on there as much as possible, of course, will will post new content and that kind of thing. But we've really made that clear with you know, anybody who wants to, you know, be sponsored in some way that you know, really it's about what we want to do so sure, if you want to send us a sample of something, or a bottle That's fantastic, you know, we'll maybe review it maybe do a TNT you know, maybe it'll show up and Instagram but really, we still, you know, maintain and control that you know, from the like personal active, you know, we certainly use it as a gauge as to what, you know what people want to see, you know, what, you know, what times a week or times a day, you know, maybe that the times when more people are going to see those posts, you know, generally speaking, you know, number of likes, you know, you'll you'll gauge that it's kind of the, the, the, you know, that metric outside of kind of next next met metric, which is the interaction. So the number of comments on the post, which is, you know, some posts, we see a huge volume of comments and others, you know, not really much I think, sometimes when we direct people off to the site, we actually lose comments on the Instagram post itself, and people are getting pulled right off to the site to read the review. But that's the intent. You know, the idea is to kind of share that message, let people know there's something new up on this site. You know, what I think is interesting about this whole thing is it's being proposed as, and maybe there's some truth and validity to it, that, you know, it's to help with people's mental well being that kind of thing. But that being said, I think there's a part of That believes at some point, you know, these companies that want this data on, you know, unlikes are going to be able to buy it on the back end, they're going to be able to see that data, you know, through some kind of payment to Instagram, they're going to be able to figure out, you know, who the best engaging influencers are, if that's what you want to call them. And they're going to use that as a metric. Because right now, if you think of these, you know, these companies, if they're looking at, you know, number of followers, and they're looking at number of likes, those are really kind of just surface that just touches the surface of what's going on, you know, as far as the interaction goes, and they really want the interactions, they want people that are interacting with the community and in depth and really, you know, connected with the communities that they're talking to. And those couple of metrics, I'm not really sure, you know, fully, you know, fully show that so I think what we're going to see is I think we're going to see Instagram, really starting to take a bite out of this pie of, you know, these influencers who are making money on this journey, they want their piece and I think that's what's eventually going to come is you know, ways for those companies to kind of engage that data?

15:02 Nick, that's a fantastic answer, by the way.

15:04 next subject. Here we go.

15:07 Do you ever gauge your post between you and Jordan and just to see who has the most likes?

15:12 I think Jordan does that he's keeping track five state. Not really. We have I mean, we have fun with it. We're running scoreboard.

15:22 We do get excited. I will say when there's actually when there's comments is when we really get excited, I think I posted actually was the three of us together, we went to a local store, and he kind of let us in the back or he's got way too much. That's not like generally for sale. But he kind of said, you know, take what you want, you know, what do you want and, you know, we weren't we didn't go over Barba which got three bottles and stuff you just don't see. And you know, we kind of put them arrange them in group. So this is what each of us got, you know, my group, George's group, Eric's group when you just said which, which one would you pick? One, two or three. And we were amazed by how many comments we got. Matt, you know, because it's really interesting to see, you know, that dynamic of what people gravitated towards, you know, with the bundle or the one particular bottle they felt like was the strongest, you know, that kind of thing. So, we get more excited about I think interactions than just just plain old likes at this point.

16:16 Yeah, I kind of the question for you know, between you and Blake, you know, when you look at this, you know, the ultimate goal is that none of us are like making money off Instagram, right? None of us are. I guess the question is, is that what we want to do is want to figure out how do we convert these people that are looking at our stuff on Instagram to actually listening to a podcast or reading one of your articles, like, do you see Instagram as a medium to actually make that happen? Or just are people just excited to just be like, Oh, cool. Nick has a bottle of Pappy 20 all like that. For me.

16:45 I think it's just, you know, it's all part of the big big flywheel. So you know, there's, there's people who come to just see the Instagram and may see a blog post or something like that, and, you know, so it's kind of connecting it all. But I think Instagram is a good discovery tool.

17:02 So

17:04 somebody may not be you just Google searching and find you, but they may see you on Instagram. They're like, Oh, they have a blog they posted a review now I'll look at that. So I think it's it's really good for that just for discovering new new blogs, new new websites, all that kind of stuff. So it's not as big of on the likes, like I didn't think that was that big of a deal, at least in the whiskey industry. You know, I think Mikey putting the comments about, you can still see the inside. So companies want to see your analytics of how many likes and comments you get per post, they could still see all that it's more of like that forward facing just that vanity number of Oh, this post got 1000 likes it is crazy. I think they just took took away that and I mean, that's fine to me. I don't think it really affects anything that us do. Because, you know, like Kenny said, No, no one's really making money off of Instagram. At least I haven't figured out a way yet. So, you know, it kind of removes that removes a little bit of the vanity.

18:09 And so I think it's pretty good thing overall,

18:11 I think this is very important for the consumer. What this does is it kind of, it kind of deflates a trend that we've seen in, in whiskey in that there's been a shit ton of people who bought a bottle of bourbon five weeks ago, and suddenly they're an expert. And so, you know, Instagram seem to be a breeding ground for people coming into the game. And I, as you all know, I will help anybody trying to get into this business at you know, to create interesting content or ideas or videos, whatever. I am all about furthering the education and the conversation. And even if you are a new bourbon consumer, and you're bringing people into that journey, And you're just posting a bottle. There's nothing wrong with that. The the problem that has surfaced from these, you know, some of the what we would call influencers is that they were like, overnight experts, and they would they would post themselves as that I mean, and someone like, you know, Brian and myself has been doing this for more than a decade. You know, he just kind of kind of look at that and scratch your head. But at the same time, I have seen the impact of what the influencer community can do for for events and getting people to show up or even watch something. And I think it's really powerful. There's a guy scotch and time I thought I that what he has done has been really remarkable in that he kind of vetted a lot of influencers that would touch scotch whether they were a cigars or They were car people. And like with it, you know, with a flick of a finger or a reach out through Instagram, he would have all those people talking about an event. And before you know it, you know he touches a million people. And those are real people. And so I think there's an incredible amount of value to it. But we just have to be careful that we don't get ourselves in a situation where we're not providing real information or a real story that matters to somebody

20:32 kind of just the back of what Fred says, I think I love Instagram and I waste countless hours of it. That's why I've mostly delete social media during the week not to waste time on it but with Instagram, it's like you have shallow short and like you know what contents going to grab you at that instant and it's like, everything has to be epic and it makes it like so like dramatic and it's sad that we have to like remove likes because people put So much self worth, like in those that we're trying to fix, you know, people's mental health because they don't realize this is a highlight reel of someone's life or their life like when Blake's, you know, dropping a brisket and it wobbles, and he has to put, you know, juvenile 400 degrees on it. It's not because he's living this epic life. It has kids screaming in the

21:22 room in the background, like everybody's going crazy. That's why I have to put music over every single.

21:32 Like, those celebrities are like, look at me, I'm so epic, because I'm with my boys and we got like 10 bottles and we put like 40 filters on it to make it look like the craziest photo ever. But, you know, that's just my thought on it.

21:45 I will say that when I got when Instagram verified my account, and I got that little blue checkmark. I mean, there's there are a few things that I have celebrated. More than that, that was like in a weird way, it was like, you know for

22:03 let me interrupt few things you've celebrated more than that.

22:07 Well, in terms of like social media, I was about to go down, go down that road, like, I hate social media. But when I first started, like trying to, you know, sell books to publishers, they were like, you need Instagram followers, you need Twitter followers, you need this and now it's fucking YouTube. So you know, you have to have all of these things to be encompassing and so that's why you know, I've worked on that is because it's what the people who you know, put on events and you know, buy books at the publishing level or films or whatever, that's what they want. And at bourbon and beyond, you know, we assess bands based on you know, like a new up and coming band, we can assess a band based on the metrics from YouTube or Instagram, that's real life data. So when I got that like blue checkmark because I know how important that is for like, event planners And that's basically how I make a good chunk of my living is doing events around the world. And when I got that blue checkmark, I was like, I've made it.

23:10 I had no idea I was That's crazy. I mean, I was late to the game didn't get on to my daughter got me on. And it's it's eye opening to

23:18 actually just put a green check after my name. I think it's something similar to that. Blue check. I think it

23:24 will. The green check emoji. Yeah.

23:28 Yeah, it's pretty close. I think it'll pass in some places. So yeah, I mean, like I said, I think that was a really good kind of way to touch on it a little bit. And I guess the last thing that will kind of look in here is, you know, as if you're a company and you're still looking for that engagement, that influencer following I mean, it is this can be a deterrent for you not being able to see that or is it going to be like okay, now we have to get more data out of this person, try to figure out if they're actually a true influencer or not. I think

23:53 it's going to cause the companies to dig deeper

23:56 sites that give you those analytics. I mean, there's sites like You know, don't on it down

24:02 follower by user.

24:03 Yeah, by account. And I think it's I think Instagrams going to use that data, you know, I think they're going to collect more data, I would think that they, at some point are going to try to be in between, because if you think right now, if there's transactions happening between companies in between influencers she got in, it's happening outside of Instagram, but then the post and the activity, the thing that they want is happening inside of Instagram, I gotta believe that, if I'm Instagram, why wouldn't I want a portion of that? Why would I want to be the one to connect those two entities? And if anything, we may see a lot more of that because right now, it's really pretty ad hoc, you know, especially if you're not somebody that's, you know, a huge Instagram personality that's got it figured out, you know, or a big company that's got it figured out you know, you've got smaller companies seeing it seeing like seeing followers thinking, Okay, there's a big audience here. Maybe they don't understand that but they might want to throw some money. They may not know how to connect with quality, the influencers I think we may see a lot more connectivity there, you know, between between these two parties with Instagram actually in the middle taking a portion of it, which to me that's even a little bit more scary you know, because as of right now you got to be cautious about what you're seeing and reading because what's really what's really behind it, you know, and there's certainly some markets out there where just about all the information that's out there is got somebody money behind it is very difficult to find real information, you know, that somebody has put together on their own without the influence from somebody money.

25:33 Okay, last question as we kind of tail off on this. Should Instagram also hide the amount of followers that you have,

25:40 I think that would start to deter even more from people reaching out to you know, influencers and all that kind of stuff. So I think that would hurt their, you know, they can kind of get away with hiding the likes and you know, gets a nice PR push, but if they started hiding followers and all of that. I mean, you know, the whole mental health thing I get, but it's like, if somebody is drawing value in their own life, because of how many Instagram followers, they have Instagrams not gonna be able to solve that problem in their life, you know, it's going to take something more. And, you know, it's a sad thing to say, but it is true. Like, if that's where you're deriving value from with your life, like, you need to take a step back in general. And that's just a small byproduct of I'm sure some deep seated issues.

26:34 So

26:35 kind of a, on a serious note to bring it back.

26:39 No, like, what's the point that I mean, you know, we're all on there to build a bigger following and reach bigger audience. So take it for what it is. It's a tool to talk to more people about whiskey. It's not something that you should be waking up in the middle of the night thinking why don't I have 100,000

26:56 followers every time my posts don't get as much likes his kidneys. I'm liking that. You're in a funk. You know,

27:07 I who cares what they do? I mean, I just all I mean every, every day, they're all changing their algorithms and you know, one day it's all going to go away or be changed and highly regulated. Just, it's not worth worrying about or even thinking about. It's all stupid.

27:24 Yeah, like speaking of stupid, let's go ahead and move on to another stupid topic. So some fun.

27:28 Yes. Alright.

27:30 Cool. So, last week, Blake broke a lot of hearts out there across the nation, as he got rid of you know, he always has to be tech map, but he said this year, and never again, will there ever be another Pappy release map. And so that kind of led into a good blog posts that kind of talked about really the problems that he sees with it. You know, even if you do find a bottle, Pappy. odds are you're not going to be paying retail because I think he said there's about it. Maybe a two to 5% chance that there's that's all the retailers that are left across the nation that are actually selling theirs at suggested retail price. And so this kind of leads into the sort of the next question and it also kind of tails off on a lot of things that we had discussed or kind of took the the brunt end of it. A few weeks ago when we had a counterfeiter on the podcast, and people were talking about, okay, well, you need to go talk to Sandra, you need to pull you need to put them online, they should be responsible for this. Like they need to answer the questions that people we reached out to saceur and PR, and we asked for somebody to come on the show to try it and provide some transparency. And we knew this was going to be a sensitive subject. And we're willing to give all the questions up front just in case they wanted to prepare their answers. However, resizer at the respectfully declined our offer, and they do not wish to answer any of our questions. So we're going to do what we do best and make all sorts of frivolous claims and conspiracy theories.

28:53 Thank you. lations.

28:54 Yes, so everything you hear from this point forward and me button right now.

29:00 Go ahead and throw that Brian's

29:02 way.

29:04 So anything that you hear from here on out is our own opinions. Nothing that is factual or true or anything. This is just something that we're all just kind of talking about as just kind of friends and kind of just putting our ideas out there. So, the first thing we kind of look at here is, of course, we all know that the van winkles were kind of the face of the secondary market take down we talked about it, you know, we recorded it bourbon and beyond. We put it out there the whole world got to hear. However, I kind of want to put it out there for you all. Do you believe that there, you know, there are bigger wheels in motion behind this. And it's actually Sazerac as a whole. And it's really the Van Winkle is just kind of had to be the puppet in this.

29:42 We're not going to fall on the sword with you, Kenny. Let's you're on your own.

29:47 When you look at it, it's kind of like the perfect storm. So the Van Winkle is have the face where everyone knows Pappy and everybody wants to get Pappy and that's you know, that's I'll step out and say that's the majority of what was being sold and traded and everything on the secondary market. It helps when you have a billion dollar company that also hates the secondary behind you and that's that's where azurite came in. So you know where I think Preston said where he fail which was you know, he hated the secondary market and all this stuff but more Julian and everyone else falls I don't know. But you know, to me and I just think it's really misguided Is this the best way I don't want to say it's dumb or stupid because I think they have their reasons but I think they missed out on they're actually targeting their their biggest you know, cheerleaders and their biggest promoters by going after the secondary market in you know, to go after the secondary market and not just put some, you know, anti counterfeiting measures on their bottle. I think that's the biggest thing. And I have a, you know, my prop is in the background of how much I feel like they actually do care about the consumer. And you know, you look at the 2017, Pappy 15 year, they put the wrong foil cap, they put the red cap on the bottle instead of the black cap and just let it go out to market. I mean, I can't think of any other product where they put the wrong cap on it just like who cares? Send it no big deal. And that's to me that was like a bigger slap in the face that actually going after the secondary the fact that you know, these things are how crazy people go. And it wasn't like there was a press announcement meant before it was just like they started popping up and for like, hey, the 15 years got a red cap on it this year. Like oh, bottling mistake, it's good. So, it took us 20,000

31:55 bottles before we realized screw let it go.

31:58 Like I just You know, we send one sticker out wrong and you're going to get a reply automatically you send it out, Hey, sorry, we sit around sticker, whatever. So that to me was just kind of like, what are we really going after here and ultimately, Cedric says or ex defense of the three tier system, which they are strongly embedded in, they believe in the three tier system, they think three tier system should be there no matter what. And they see the secondary market as, you know, a deterrent to the three tier system or you know, impeding the three tier system. And ultimately, it's not about taking down the secondary, it's about making sure that that three tier system is in place, and ongoing forever.

32:44 They were even against like the da Vinci spirits.

32:48 Lucky. So, you know, for me, like that's what the secondary market was was to go and enjoy looking at those beautiful old bottles. That would occasionally pop up from the 50s and 60s, I gave two shits about Pappy. And, you know, but that's what led the conversation in it really, it comes down to it comes down to every single year for that company. They have the hottest Bourbons that everybody wants in every major city in the country and the small ones in every country in the world. How do they get there? How do they get it there? And then in between those these things that happen, they're staffed within their own company. You know, there's small little counterfeiters here and there you got ridiculous hype, you know, driving around it, like from like the from the fortune story about billionaires can't even get a bottle to help us talking about it. I mean, for God's sake, I mean, I've my whole Pappy versus the field thing on YouTube. Was was an experiment for me just at halftime. I'm fine with it, but, but it was like, you know, I'm part of the problem. So I guess, you know, before we kind of jump into some other questions here, does anybody else kind of think that? You know, was it really like why make the van winkles the face of this?

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36:24 Well, I mean, do you think that says rack is making the Van Winkle face? Or do you think the van winkles are recognizing that of their own volition and in you know, driving and as well themselves?

36:36 This is all theory, man. So if you think that, you know, they had the wheels in motion behind this, and they're just like, hey, Preston, we're going to go ahead and let you be the punching bag. This today like what what do you really think that was it or you really think that maybe the vein winkles actually do legitimately care about the secondary market?

36:52 I think they were the face no matter what I mean, if four roses came out and tried to do the same thing, it's like well You know, you the small batch limited edition gets flipped a little bit but and nobody's going to step up from a bottle from 1950 you know, some old still Weller nobody's going to step up and like try to shut it down on their behalf so I think they were just kind of already the face.

37:19 But I don't think anyone else really, I guess could be the face in a sense of, you know, if you think about it is a very family business in a way you know, if you look at if you look at says rack and that company, you know, that that teaming up with the van winkles and partnership was a fantastic move, you know, for their product line. You know, that whatever caused Van Winkle and Pappy Van Winkle, you know, all the things that, you know, you look at the dominoes that fell years ago that just caused the popularity to skyrocket. You know, there's no question that that's overflowed into you know, a lot of says RX product And now we've got this, you know, we've got this this kind of like beast that's feeding itself in a way, because we've got us as, as bourbon enthusiasts, as drinkers who talk about this stuff all the time, who buy this stuff and want this stuff. I mean, I look in my, in my, in my collection here, and I've definitely got like a high percentage of Sazerac type products that I've kind of like stocked up on just based on that, geez, I don't think I'm going to see it again for a while. I better buy a few of them, as opposed to Yeah, I see it all the time. I'll just get one. What do I need three, four, you know, and so then we've got the distributors using it to hold over the retailers as a product to buy more products and is not just sanitary products, but it's stuff they want to move as well, because they're in it to make money. You know, you know, so you've and then you've got the retailers who don't put this stuff on the shelves. So no matter how much they're making, it appears to be a ghost, whatever it might be, even though there might be a lot of it because of a retailer's holding it back and taking you by You know, by the by the shoulder and saying by the arm and saying, Hey, I got something special, you're, you're a good guy like you, you want to, you're suddenly saying, I am special? I do want that. Absolutely. And then it's not even a question about it, you know, so get everybody really believing that all these products are insanely hard to get that's causing people to hoard them, stockpile them, and buy more of them, and then that's what's causing the price to go up. So the secondary in a way, has kind of helped their cause in a sense, you know, at the same time, you know, it's, they're, they're a company, you know, you got to look at say, what are you doing to stop, you know, counterfeit bottles to stop these things from going on to prevent illegal activity? You know, so how much of it is them really wanting to stop it versus just okay, I suppose we really should, you know, apply and make it look like we're doing something over here,

39:46 Nick, I think it's more than just that that helped them. I mean, it's the horse they wrote, it's the it's the reason that those brands are as popular as they are today. And now there's at least 15 turn their back on that secondary market but that's that's what made them and maybe once you make it that big you can turn your back on it and you can try to take this holier than thou attitude toward it, but it got them there and I mean maybe it'll push them back down if they if they push back against, you know Corky Taylor from peerless when I asked him about this you know at bourbon and beyond he he said that he's like this is like it's a mistake, that this whole thing was like punishing the the hardcore consumers that really has brought, you know, bourbon to where it's at right now. But I'm telling you all the van winkles in the 90s every single day they were near closure, you know that that's a company where

40:51 everybody wants to hate on them, but it was they had a long road. Long Road to get here and You know, and they, they get probably far more hate mail hate mail than all of us combined on on a yearly basis, because people can't get bottles and they get all these stories that are connected to them. And so I think a lot of what we caught on that stage in September was frustration, and I don't think saceur i don't think i don't think sads rag put then we close up to this, I think they wanted to do it. And I think Preston on that stage that day wanted to get it off his chest and you know, they, they're angry about it. They're angry about the fact that someone can sell a bottle that that's who's not a licensed retailer, they're also angry about the people who are jacking up prices and liquor stores. And here's the thing as they say they can't do anything about that, that that's true. So the liquor stores who are price gouging, you know, are protected by federal laws that prevent, prevent alcohol companies. From dictating pricing, so, like Mac and these like ambos, they they like fixed their prices and prices and retailers can't, can't do they can't jack the prices up alcohol cannot do that. And that all goes back to the 40s and 50s. And ironically, the Pappy Van Winkle testified in Congress talking about all the price fixing that was going on in the industry. So they are in a hard spot. And I, you know, it, it's, it's a know when to know when if they jack up their prices to kind of like, you know, meet the demand, they're in trouble. You know, they get yelled at, you know, and if they don't do anything, they get yelled at, but, but what it came down to is they made a business decision. And, and they, I think, I don't think they made the best business decision, but they made what they thought was best for their company.

42:53 Fred to piggyback on that, you know, I think that they do internalize what they went through and I think there's got to be a part of them that says, if we raise our prices today, this, you know, we've kind of gotten lucky in a way. I mean, if I were them, I would certainly feel like, man, we really got lucky over the years with how popular our product has become, what if we push it too hard, and we lose what we've gained. And we're back to where we were? Yeah, so I gotta believe it for them. That's got to be going on. I mean, that's a human thing to feel. I would think if any of us in that position would probably be, you know, thinking the same thing.

43:28 You know, and this is this is all kind of coming back around because, you know, Christopher Hart and a few other people with inside the chat, you know, they were saying like, Oh, it's all the vein, winkles. It's not SAS rack. And I'm kind of saying, I'm kind of the opposite. And I'll kind of give you my, my theory on this. Because, you know, when I look at this, I look at, you know, the vein winkles is the face of this and they come out saying that the main argument is behind counterfeiting, and that's a pretty weak excuse, like, actually, it's a shitty excuse my opinion, like because they're not doing anything to prevent it. They're not doing anything to invest in it to make anything happen me Blake made a pretty good example about that even quality control at Sazerac was poor enough to even see that happen. And what was the real point of just going after the secondary market? So if I think about this, and I think a few steps back, and I think a little bit higher up the ladder, I'm like, Okay, well, I want to put these people to faces because the most popular brand out there, and it's something that people are going to recognize. And if it's coming from them, all these bourbon nerds, you know, crazy, they're going to talk about it. And people are talking already on on here that saying, you know, we're doing it like we're giving them the more press that they're already going to get right. So we're giving free marketing. And this is another theory that I kind of heard from somebody else as well, is that sazzle is expanding. I mean, they've got more warehouses coming out, they've got more distilleries coming online. And the goal behind this is to not have so much focus, being on just a few select brands. Instead, what they want to be able to do is they want to be able to try to spread the pie even further. Get these hands and get these bottles in the hands of more people, not the allocated products, but the stuff that's coming online. And you got to be able to get it in such a way that people aren't just talking about the same five bottles all the time. Now, I also kind of look at this in another way is that this is a, this is a very bad thing for bourbon. Because we know Fred talked about a little bit earlier. And, and I think we've all had that same feeling that when we're able to sit there, and we're able to scroll, and we're able to see these cool bottles from the 50s and old Miller antiques from the 70s. And like all these like, you know, old Willett wax tops, and people are just going you know, they're going crazy for it. And they just want to rip it away for why for counterfeiting. Like, that's bullshit. Like it's bullshit, right? There's got to be something that's a little bit little bit higher here to make this a real a real claim and a real excuse and it can't be counterfeiting. So I'm just saying that there's there's some dots in my head that aren't connecting. To make it say that counterfeits are really the real angle

45:56 here when the Attorney General's

46:00 For the country all the states basically issued a joint letter saying that they're going to be cracking down on secondary market that's that the bad week goes guys

46:10 I'm sure Julian has

46:11 some connections but for to get 47 out of the 50 Attorney General's

46:17 and let me tell you, they're all playing on that date the Dominican Republic, minibar stuff and the whole seller world boy they seize that opportunity better than you know it. Yeah, anything since prohibition I mean, my

46:35 god,

46:36 they're like all see, look what happens here when we allow shipping. You can die. You know, you could die from alcohol poisoning and vultures will be eating your guts on the beach. It's just ridiculous. how far they took that?

46:52 I don't think says right really gives a shit as whiskey geeks we think would they care these whiskey brands care about what we think and like These really high end bottles matter that the reality is, those things are like 5% of their business. It's like low on the totem pole. It's more of a pain they asked for them. They're thinking more grander bigger. I just don't think that counterfeiting or the Van Winkle. I mean, yes, they wanted but I just don't think they would put all these resources in it into that when they're just there as on how much fireball how much Buffalo Trace, can we push out there and do it globally? Not that that's what they're focused on, I think.

47:31 Yeah, I think if anything, it's a reaction. I can agree with that to Ryan and the van winkles. It may be more internal, you know, they're invested in it.

47:39 But I think I think the van winkles it's like Fred said, they've got so much sweat equity and all this and, you know, it's their family history and they're just for lack of better term butthurt about it. You know, that people can flip it on the market for 10 x what they you know, because a $300 bottle, they're probably making you know, 9200 bucks on it you know and then and then it's selling for 1518 $2,000 i mean you know that's probably more of it for me but

48:07 but okay here's the thing like they can control that why don't they do it?

48:10 Well they could I guess but for they can just why don't they sell it for two grand but the same amount of hate from the other side saying well you sold out you

48:21 know what Booker's do when they raise the $20 they're like hell fuck the head

48:26 I kind of nonsense

48:28 yeah their perspective you know they I can't imagine the amount you know as Fred said they probably get the amount of hate mail all of us combined on a daily basis you know, it's probably pretty frustrating to get like they think they're doing the right thing by just keeping the prices lower and I'm sure every random you know guys email them saying oh, I used to buy your bottles for $50 a bottle and loved it now I can't get it. And you got a you know, I'm sure it's millennial thrown in there somewhere who's ruining it or like You know a guy in skinny jeans and a flannel shirts probably the reason why they can't live happy anymore. But you know they're probably frustrated with that like I would be too I don't you know i don't blame them but I just think they're taking the wrong approach

49:16 doesn't keeping that bottle at $90 encourage secondary flipping

49:22 you know, but indirectly if they crease it so so say they came out next year and happy 15 was just $500 I guarantee you they'd get even more hate because of that. I think but I could be wrong. I mean, ultimately I you know, I think it like Ryan said this is not a big I think all these limited releases is something they want to get behind them. You know that we Jordan an eye toward heaven Hill, and it was crazy the amount of spirits that were flowing through there and bourbon was, I mean, we saw way more watermelon vodka and flavored rums and all this stuff that we had never seen just, you know, hundreds of thousands of cases moving through their Eliza correct 23rd year was not even on the radar of what was what was important and what was, you know, kind of moving the profit loss statement. So I think it is kind of that necessary evil they want, they want to have it they want that, you know, the history and the heritage and everything else. But at the end of the day, that's not what makes these places profitable for raising prices really,

50:35 I mean, well, it isn't, it's still, you know, flips for double for you know, instantly it

50:40 will, it will it has a little bit because will it that that affects the bottom line and a little bit more, you know, if you double the price of something that is affecting your bottom line by like, point 05 percent,

50:52 you know, it's only one to 2% of their total business like that. They cut almost All their gift shop sales of it because it became such a pain in the ass. They were getting ABC letters from people saying like, or not from people that from the ABC, that people were turning them in, you know, saying like, well, they're just selling to certain people and you know, then they're like, well, the hell with it, we're not even gonna deal with anymore because it's just do this for the, you know, the whiskey and this is turned into a more headache than than it needs to be.

51:23 So I want to bring something up that Kenny said at the very top, and that's like, I want everyone to know, like how hard we work to get a representative from Sazerac to come on and talk about this. And we thought we had someone across the finish line, but we did not say Hey, come on this show. You know, we respected that person's position and his future with with that respective company. And I just want to tell you that anytime we have we've all given a lot we've sung a lot of things haven't hills way. Anytime I have ever written anything. Negative about heaven Hill, they reach out to me and they explain anytime I've ever written anything about Jim Beam, they reach out to me and explain and you know, sometimes they won't talk to me for six months, but they will they will still have a conversation with me. What we're looking at here we are looking at a very, a very closed in organization. Arguably it's the best whiskey that's out there and hungry consumers who want to know more. And if anyone from saceur acts listening, I'm just telling you that the playing it like playing the game of like not talking about this is only hurting you is only hurting you and and you got to come on you got to talk about this because people people are fascinated about it from a business perspective as well. I mean, in addition to Kenny's like, right vein popping up over here when he's got a blood draw tomorrow, you know, I'm getting concerned about him. People are absolutely fascinated with the business. A bourbon. So let's talk about one of the most key issues in our industry. And that is allocation. How do you decide to do allocation? I would love to have that conversation.

53:13 And so there's one other thing I kind of want to also bring up as we were talking about raising prices in this just kind of like just jogged my memory a little bit, you know, when Blake came out with his article, you know, saying that maybe there's like 5% of retailers nationwide that are actually still selling at us, Rp. And let's, let's be, let's be generous. We'll give it the 8020 rule say 20% of retailers nationwide are still selling it SRP

53:34 even if they generally are state run, you've got state run to start with, right. Okay. So then there's all them and then you've got the other ones with a lot of big retailers are doing lotteries

53:44 across the board. Even if they said rk Well, guess what the new SRP for Pappy 15 500 bucks. There's still 80% of the country that's still going to charge more than 500 bucks that's fine. Right in the 20%. That's there. Yeah, sure. little bitch, but whatever. Like, I think most people get over it. And, and not only that is most people, if they have the offer to buy a $500 bottle, most people are going to do it anyway, because that's the only time they're ever gonna get their hands on it. So I don't really see a whole lot of blowback, even if they were to raise the price in the back end. However, I've always been one to always say, you know, kudos to Sazerac and the entire portfolio of actually kind of sticking to their guns and really not raising prices across the board on any any allocated bourbon, you know, so it's, it's one thing that is cool to be the bourbon consumer and just say, like, hey, it's always a good deal. If you can find it a retailer, right? If I could find the owner to leave for $45. Cool, great deal. If it's 150. Maybe it's a pass. So that's just one of the things that, you know, over the over the years, I'm just really surprised that we stuck with him. And kind of like the last question I want to throw as regards to this. You all think other distilleries are happy with sizer x actions here or Van Winkle, his actions whoever it is to actually take down This, this singular, or should I say the big secondary market groups?

55:04 I think that's an even more interesting question, because so far nobody has jumped on board to publicly say, yeah, we're with them. We should, you know, be doing something to combat that. And maybe it is because, you know, if we look at it says rack are the leading products in the majority of that, you know, it's it's dusty bottles, and it's

55:26 sad, it says right products.

55:29 But I do think it's interesting that nobody has really kind of jump in to fight the battle with them. And you know, whether that's because they disagree or whether that's because they want to see how it you know, the consumer is going to react, I don't know, but

55:46 the longer other distilleries stay out of that fight, I think it's better for the consumer.

55:53 Well, I think here in the United States, you know, I think the market is just very, very small, relatively speaking. You know, maybe there's counterfeiting going on and other countries where it's more of a massive problem that we're just not in tune with that we don't know, you know, you see videos pop up on YouTube have these like mass production type situations where people are bottling, you know, something in in a counterfeit nature that it definitely appears to be in a different country, you know, where it's going to be, you know, sold in some black market. But here in the United States, you know, I think it's really resolved mostly to the enthusiast crowd, you know, to the crowd is trying to be istock bars and restaurants and high end places like that, you know, as a percentage of sales. I it's got to be really small. What I would really like to see and I know, you know, I know producers distilleries Listen to this. I would like to see a movement from producers and distilleries, you know, from somewhere to kind of create this market. How do we, you know, people are going to buy and sell, they're going to if this stuff is going to change hands, it's going to happen. You know, the market is going to find a way because somebody has it, somebody else will it plain and simple, that's just how it's going to work. Right? So if it's not this thing, it's going to be the next thing. So I would like to see a movement to get behind that, you know, in a way that doesn't encroach on the new production, the new businesses, stuff that does go through the three tier system, the normal way, there's plenty that doesn't, you know, there's plenty of stuff like Fred mentioned, you know, the older stuff, the stuff people find in their grandparents basements, that somebody else wants, that is of no value to the person who found it, but have tremendous value to maybe somebody else. And in some cases, maybe a lot of other people. You know, as we've seen with these charity auctions, and things of that nature, where these bottles can raise a tremendous amount of money, there's certainly a market for it. And I really believe, you know, the producers, especially the big producers should get behind that kind of, you know, they're behind the culture, if they're, you know, touting the history and those kinds of things. put your money where your mouth is, and make it so that we can have them market that everybody wants and is going to have anyway.

57:56 You know, what's funny is there was a secondary market called classified ads forever. Like, in through my research, I found so many bottles for sale and like small newspapers and people would just, you know, go and buy him but I'll say this like, Christopher Hart brought this up, Ryan and I were on his show. It'll be I think it airs this week as well. But I brought up the fact that I do think that second you know, he brought up two factors like the secondary market is will always survive in these forums in some way, shape or form. And not I do not believe that I am seeing an uptake of federal authorities getting involved with this. I mean, this is a very serious issue. The same people who were involved and taking down Big Tobacco in the 1990s you're starting to see them focus on alcohol while at the same time you have a incredible large movement within the health community try and ban advertising. So the second the all this alcohol stuff falls under kind of like two battles one you have one trying, you know, one side trying to block the lead Sales and you have another side, you know, for whatever reason they're trying to block illegal sales on the other side, you have people who are trying to ban alcohol and social media. So you've got, I mean, right now it's coming at to France. And in some ways, that's why it's kind of mark Browns head has always been a very he's always been very conservative about this. And so if like if you were to put yourself in his shoes of like you're trying to protect what you do protect your company in the best way you think is possible. You know, you may pursue something like this to prevent it. But the fact is, is what no one ever seems to grasp. Is that us, the bourbon fan, the consumer, you know, I just feel like all of these, if anything is, is going to change. It has to come from us. You know, there was a few years ago, New York tried to ban fantasy, fantasy gaming, you know, within five hours every Saturday In New York, I had heard from people in their area that never even considered politics, and they changed it just like that. Now we can all play fantasy football and make money off of it. So if if we are going to save any, you know, semblance of what the secondary market is or what a meant to us, it's got to come from us. And we have to start like, pushing it. We have to, like, you know, write our congressmen and our state senators and say, like, you know, this is an issue that's important to us. And, believe it or not, you know, if Wade Woodard and people like that multiply, I mean, who can handle 20 letters from Wade water today?

1:00:43 And Fred, I go bigger than that. I mean, the three tier system is antiquated. It's rooted in Prohibition era, sentiments and law. I mean, that whole the whole system's got to go and if part of that is a more even more robust vintage Law then we already have that really resembles what the secondary market looks like. So be it, it'll be a safer market. If folks like Sazerac and the other producers, take anti counterfeiting measures, it'll be a safer market. We've got to go to more. I mean, I'm always an open market guy. But here I really am for partly out of self interest, but that's where we've got to go. We've got to go to less regulation and more openness on it.

1:01:26 Yeah. Let's say let's stage a DC protest. Hey, hey, three teams gotta go. I don't know how

1:01:34 to go to DC and drink bourbon.

1:01:37 Next to the 30 other picketers

1:01:40 actually, what would happen is everybody would just end up with jack rose, and no one would go do anything. We pretty much

1:01:47 like that idea.

1:01:48 We need some members of Congress while we're there, though.

1:01:51 Yeah.

1:01:52 What guy with a retail license in DC so we can maybe set something up, I think, Oh, yeah. Let's do it.

1:02:00 Trying to get the RV let's go

1:02:01 gas it up

1:02:02 alright so let's go ahead we'll kind of wrap this up on a little bit higher now because this is this is the Thanksgiving episode so happy Thanksgiving everybody Hope you're if you're driving you're maybe you're just starting to try to fall asleep to some trip the fan little slip or something like that but let's go ahead and kind of go around a little bit and kind of talk about you know what we're thankful for and bourbon in 2019 if there's something that was awesome that happened to you whether it was growing or do anything like that or just laying a cool bottle

1:02:32 we're like in height

1:02:36 Sure, why not in with

1:02:39 I'll jump in.

1:02:41 So,

1:02:42 first I'm going to plug an article that's coming this week. And some bourbon are always do an article about, you know, just Thanksgiving, open up the good bottles like who cares if it has a secondary market. I think that's even more prevalent now that the secondary market is kind of fading and or unstable. So what I was trying to do is open up good bottles with family members, friends, that kind of stuff. I will be open up Happy 15 year that that'll be a part of it. No, I think, you know, Thanksgiving is great. It's time to, you know, kind of reflect a little bit. And so all in all, this has been a good year for bourbon, I think there's a whole lot more great available products on the market. You know, we're starting to hit a little bit of that, you know, people are have been scaling up for, you know, six, seven years now. So we're seeing more and more great products come on the market, and that's a good thing. Absolutely. All right. Well, here I'll go real quick. So, you know, at least for us in the podcast, you know, I'm thankful for the success that we've had this year. It's been fantastic. You know, we've had a lot of great episodes. And not only that, as I also in a selfishly have to give a shout out to our Patreon community because you know, we are now 11 months end of the year being able to take my wife away from her old job and have her work on the podcast full time fight more

1:04:07 holy cow that's all it is fight not kidding.

1:04:13 It's simple. It's very simple.

1:04:14 But no I mean it really has been it's been a blessing again for myself and the family and everything like that. So that's ultimately what I'm what I'm thinking for regard to this podcast regards to bourbon for this year, just really what is brought me

1:04:27 and I'm going to echo that I mean, we took some shit when on the round table when we did the, the the shutdown of the secondary mark and everyone doubted it because there was only one email at the time or whatever the hell it is. You guys took some grief couple weeks ago for the episode of counterfeiter, but you guys bring so much good to the bourbon world and I appreciate that and that goes for bourbon or unbreaking to. I mean, you guys, I'm sitting here with the three groups that are really leading the charge, so I'm thankful for that. The other thing I'm thankful for is still the generosity of the bourbon community, whether it's sharing a rare bottle or sending samples or those sorts of things, or doing a big event like Ryan and Fred are aware of and we're with a couple weeks ago and you get you get $375,000 in donations for bottles of bourbon and four barrels. And I was just at another charitable event this past weekend for a children's hospital where you would think that there would be where there's Dr. Money in the crowd and and great auction items, they had a house they had a BMW, all these sorts of things. And it was $218,000. So the the generosity of the bourbon community is something that has always struck me and that that I'm thankful for and thankful to be part of,

1:05:56 you know, and thank you for that comment to Brian, you know, I'll kind of rewind a little bit, you know, so Jordan, Eric and I, we met in the second grade Jordan lived down the street from me. Eric went to the same school. You know, we were friends since then. But then college all went to different places. You know, after college, I lived in different places. Incidentally, Jordan lived in Louisville, Kentucky for a little while. And when he was there, we visit we go drink bourbon, we go to distilleries, that kind of thing. Well, it didn't really click quite click, he left there and move somewhere else will you know, so we really honestly weren't talking that off. We might talk once every couple months see each other once or twice a year if that. At one point, we got together and we each had like 10 bottles of bourbon we were talking about a little bit. We went and bought way too much, and brought it all and we had this gigantic tasting years ago. And that's what kind of kicked off the idea for doing the website and kind of going from there. And it got us to the point where now you know, we're on it. it together, but pretty much talking every day on the chat and then probably talking on the phone, you know, once or twice a week, you know, and then that's transition to, you know, meeting you guys, you know, in January 2018. You know, we all get together and select a barrel, you know, and now here we are, you know, go to Kentucky get together, you know, do this, you know. So it's just, it's really, you know, I feel like bourbon has brought me together with a lot of people in my life. That's been that, you know, kind of an unintended consequence. But really, honestly, if it wasn't for that, I think I don't think I'd have the interest in bourbon that I do have, I don't think we'd still be writing about it. If we didn't have that support, if we didn't have that kind of community engagement that's around it. And then that echoes to all the people that are readers subscribers, as even if you just comment on Instagram posts, it doesn't matter. It's just that like that communication, that interaction with people that it seems to inspire is really what I think supports it supports us for what we do on a daily basis on a weekly basis. Whatever. And I think that that idea of bourbon bringing everybody together is really what makes it keep going and what makes me keep being excited about it. Nick, you're on fire

1:08:09 tonight, you'd like

1:08:12 it is a little warm in here.

1:08:13 I got I got chills there.

1:08:16 That's how I feel. I mean, really, truly, I made it. That is how I feel. I mean, it's just great that, you know, we connect on this level in and it's just great that the ball kind of keeps rolling and just it keeps getting bigger. And people keep getting excited about it. You know, it's like you don't want that to go away. You know, you don't you don't want it to be a plateau that drops off you want it to really keep going, you know and growing.

1:08:39 So I started writing about bourbon, you know, in 2006, and I was a definitely a consumer prior to that. And, you know, I tell this story a lot, but I was writing about wine at the same time and I really, I really had made it as a wine writer like I had broke some things and I was writing for spectator and wine enthusiasts I had made it and bourbon was still kind of like 2008 to 2012. If you're a writer, you couldn't really do much with it. There were a couple blogs, but there was not really a way I could support my family writing about it. So like I was writing about like technology and wine was really kind of taking off. And in 2012 I was a finalist for the International wine writer of the year, Louis rotor awards for like the under 35 category. And I'm in this room in London with like Robert Parker and Janice Robinson, all these legendary wine critics and wine makers. And I look around this room and all I thought to myself as I just want to be a Jimmy Russell, I want to be with Fred know and Parker beam. And Lincoln Henderson and I just I want to talk about bourbon. It was it was that moment in that room that I decided I wanted to leave wine Focus on bourbon. And so I kind of just threw up, put all my cards and into bourbon and in 2012 and it's been one of the greatest decisions I ever made. But I could not do it without, without the support of my family. I mean, what I do is I travel a lot. My wife is absolutely amazing, even though she steals most of my good bourbon when I'm out of town. True, true story. She's always making whiskey sours with like something that I spent a lot of money on to include rare vintage bottles, so I got to figure out how to hide those better. But if it wasn't for her, I mean, I would have given up a long time ago. And if you've ever read one of my books or a blog post or liked anything, I love you, man. I really appreciate it. But I'm also really thankful for Ryan and Kenny Like, you all, you all listening, you know, we kind of go back and forth and everything, but I feel like we've really, we've really become pretty good friends in the past year and that counterfeiting that counterfeiting episode. We really bonded over that. And I take, I take 100% of all the criticism that came from that because I did feel I came off very unprofessional because I mostly wanted to strangle the guys neck and it came off pretty, obviously. And I didn't let Ryan and Kenny get a lot of their questions in and you know what? They were just like, we're a team. We're a team. We're a team. And so I'm really thankful for those two knuckleheads. You got it for you.

1:11:49 There's a there's an important question that Jason Nutter wants to know and is that are you thankful for vodka

1:11:57 breaking pockets calm Fred wrote it.

1:12:01 thankful there's something to hate out there.

1:12:03 Yeah, you know what I really do? I really do think it's important to hate something in social media. Most people hate on a politician. I hate vodka so

1:12:14 fair enough

1:12:17 All right, I guess that leaves me huh second that Fred up in extremely grateful for this relationship you know us Don't you joining the team I think it's been an incredible ride and you've given us opportunities that I still can't even like wrap my head around like me being a host or Kenny and I being a host of insane bourbon panels at a major Rock Festival and you look out in the crowd, and there's, like 30,000 50,000 people and I'm just like, so grateful the opportunities you've given us and given us Metallica concerts like we're five rows from the from like, what's his name the Napster killer dude and You know, we're by these like hardcore fans and Kenny and I are in like our Patagonia jackets, we look so awkward. And it was such an awesome time though. And like, just, I'm so grateful for everything you've done for us. And I'm so grateful for Kenny and Lauren and everything they've done for this show. I mean, this was my idea, but I could never have envisioned it being what it is. It's insane. We have people, a great Patreon community that just continues to support us and continues to grow. And it's and they come on barrel pixma they come off, you know, to liquor stores to meet as they come in. And I don't take that for granted ever. It's surreal. And I'm like humbled by it. And I just I just so thankful that Kenny and Lauren and Fred have been involved to take this to where it has and then the bourbon Community Roundtable I mean, the relationships we build, I mean, holy cow, I mean, like you guys hanging out with the all the festivals, doing the pics like It's just so much fun and like the bond that we have together, it's, it's just Words cannot describe how much greatest happened in this this podcast that I dreamed of when I was driving down in between jobs and spring lines. And now it's this. And so I just want to say thank you to everyone, and I'm just so thankful for it all. And I hope it never goes away.

1:14:25 Absolutely. I do love like having us as a group of guys and friends that, you know, we can all get together and we're not like, so how's your day job? Like, we don't ever ask that, you know?

1:14:35 Wait, everyone has data? What's your real job

1:14:39 to actually do?

1:14:42 This is it. Absolutely. So, you know, again, thank you, everybody, for coming on the roundtable tonight and talking. You know, I think we had a good list of questions. You know, Sazerac if you're out there. We're always willing to let somebody come on and kind of we'd love to have the transparency out there. I think the The community really wants to hear from you. And I think, I think I think everybody would really just love to be able to kind of hear, as Fred said, the business side of it as well. And then also, again, thank you to everybody that joined us in chat. I think we had close to around 83 concurrent viewers was peak is where we were so that's awesome. I didn't hit 100. But we got close. Have a great Happy Thanksgiving. And we will see everybody next week. Cheers, y'all. Here's

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Chattanooga Whiskey Cask 111

Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:30:12 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKV0MuyRw8Y&w=560&h=315]

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Chattanooga Whiskey Cask 111. This non-age stated bourbon is 111 proof and $45 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

228 - Penny & Sparrow & Bourbon

Thu, 21 Nov 2019 10:30:09 GMT

Penny & Sparrow is a folk music duo from Austin, TX. On their tour through Louisville, Andy Baxter and Kyle Jahnke, the talented guys behind the band, stopped by for a few bourbon pours. We talk about life on the road, their musical creation process, and how their fans give them bourbon at shows. You can catch their latest album, Finch, wherever you stream your music.

Show Partners: * Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. * Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. * Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com.

Show Notes: * Pappy Map retires: http://bourbonr.com/blog/pappy-van-winkle-release-map-retires/ * This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the holidays. * How did you all get into music and start the band? * Where does your inspiration come from? * What is your craziest moment with a fan? * How did you get into bourbon hunting? * What bourbon got you hooked? * How does the band work when you live in different states? * Who is the messy one? * What's it like on the road? * What do you listen to on the road? * Have you been on the Bourbon Trail? * Where do you go when bourbon hunting? * Do you ever get free bourbon? * How did fans discover your were into bourbon? * What does it mean to you when someone says your music has changed their life? * Where did the name Penny & Sparrow come from? * Was there a moment where you felt like you made it? * Tell us about your latest album, Finch.

0:00 We like to call ourselves rose a rock occasionally was a rock yeah sleep folk sleep. Good music to procreate to Yeah. Yeah, these are the things that we call Yeah, we discover music as like nobody's working out to Penny and Sparrow like, at least to the best of our knowledge nobody's getting a good pump while they listen to your workout as a stroll.

0:32 Welcome back, everybody. It is Episode 228 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny. And here's the news. The dates for the Kentucky bourbon festival 2020 have been announced. It will take place on September 16 through September 20 of 2020. The festival which draws novice and experienced bourbon lovers to Bardstown, Kentucky every year will celebrate the storied history of distilling America's native spirit during National bourbon Heritage Month. Tickets for the Kentucky bourbon

1:00 festival will be made available for purchase during the summer so make sure you continue to visit Kentucky bourbon festival at KY bourbon festival.com. To stay up to date on all the latest festival happenings and developments. Now for some pursuit series news Episode 15 is now hitting retail shelves across the state of Kentucky. If you're interested in getting a bottle, pay attention because here's the small list of stores that our distributor gave us so you can go out and find your own. Westport whiskey and wine, the party source go big blue liquors depths, fine wine, Ernie spirits bind pig bourbon market, the brown hotel and the brown barrel. We appreciate all the support for going out there and buying a bottle and we hope to bring more here in the future as well. Now it's a sad day in the bourbon world is Blake from bourbon or calm is announced that he's retiring his Pappy release map. It's something that many people around the country including myself used over the years to kind of know when Pappy was gonna be hitting in my state. And Blake he puts it all out there.

2:00 His latest article, that it's time to stop because there's a rare chance that you will ever get it. And if you do, the odds are you are not going to be paying MSRP. He also kind of throws a quick jab in there saying that Sazerac rock really isn't doing anything to prevent counterfeits, nor are they doing anything to stop stores or distributors from playing this game. And you can read more about this in this article within our show notes. Now for today's podcast, I met Andy and Kyle the guys that are behind the band, Penny and Sparrow for the first time back at the 2019 for castle Music Festival in Louisville, Kentucky. I won't ruin the beginning of the podcast for you. But besides being great musicians, and also being incredibly funny, these guys are also really into bourbon. And I'm going to anticipate that after you listen to the stories that these two have to tell about their life on the road, their creation process, and of course, their love for bourbon. You're gonna become a fan as well. Now, it's time for Joe to tell us a little bit about barrel

3:00 spirits. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char.

3:05 Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. We're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrel bourbon.com.

3:15 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. We're coming up on the holidays. What a wonderful time of year you have your family and your friends together. And you crack open the cork. You pour a little bourbon in your glass, you sip by the fire. It's so magical. It's so wonderful. I absolutely love the holidays. But here's the here's the kicker of it all, is that it is not easy to buy bourbon for people anymore. For God's sakes, I'm trying to figure out what to get some of my friends who I always get bourbon and they get everything already. So here's my recommendations for

4:00 Want to buy your friends who are bourbon fans? Come down to Kentucky or find someone who's in Kentucky and buy private barrel selections. I mean truly, and honestly, those are the best possible gifts that you can get because they are unique. They are unique to that particular store. And if you don't know what a private barrel selection is, it's when a liquor store or a club goes to the distillery and they actually select a barrel of bourbon that is bottled specifically for them. You'll see their sticker on it and then when you give that as a gift to somebody, you can tell them you know, that's one of only 75 or 200 bottles of that bourbon it when that bottles gone, you'll never have any of it again. And in fact, you don't have to go to Kentucky you'll find that whether it's a total wine or a local liquor store in your market or a big chain like Kroger, you'll find that there are excellent private barrel selections there. Just walk up to the cash register and say hey, you have any private

5:00 barrel pics. And if they look at you like you're crazy, you know you're in the wrong store. So hopefully by now if you're listening to this podcast, you've already found your bourbon store. And if you don't have your bourbon store, just ask us in the comments where you should be shopping. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram, hey, even my YouTube, just search my name Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers.

5:32 Welcome back to that episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kenny here today just in the basement recording studio, but this is going to be an opportunity that we rarely get. I mean, it's an opportunity where we are trying to find new guests that are able to bring a new dynamic to the podcast. You know, we've had WWE superstars on before and today we're going to have a music artist on that. me you've maybe heard of and if not, you're going to learn more about them too.

6:00 Day. But I want to tell a quick story of how we all kind of got connected here. So, you know, we're starting to get involved with a lot of more music festivals, and, you know, for castle, bourbon and beyond, and so on and so forth. And when you do that, you get put on a media list. And with the media list, you kind of get spammed with a lot of band managers and PR people. And it's usually pretty generic. Sometimes it'll say like, hey, and then they'll be like a variable that says, like dollar sign, insert name here. And it says, like, you got to meet these people. They're great. You can see you can see him on stage at this time. And let me know if you want a chance to have them on your podcast or have them on, you know, maybe in your newspaper article because they don't really tailor it. It's just, you know, just something generic that goes out. But you know, shout out to Joe, Joe's, the PR manager for Penny and Sparrow. And he sent me a very personalized email and it kind of started off and saying like, Oh, hey, like, Listen, these guys are actually like really into bourbon. And that's kind of what kind of kick this off because usually people's

7:00 You know, you gotta have mon like, okay, sure what are we going to talk about? music that is because if we don't have any shared interest in bourbon, this is going to be a pretty, pretty lame for a bourbon podcast. And so we took an opportunity I said, Yeah, that's that's awesome. Let's go meet these guys so we had an opportunity to sync up at four castle after their set. And we talked and I mean, we talked for probably a solid 30 minutes there and I think we just we there's there's magic I mean, there's there's something was happening right all the all the stars were aligning, and, and we really kicked it off. And these guys are huge bourbon nerds. They're really into it. Plus, they make great music. And so I'm happy to be able to introduce these two guys to the show. So today, we've got Eddie Baxter, and Kyle Yankee. They are the duo behind Penny and Sparrow which has been featured in Rolling Stone and they're also came out with the latest album Finch. So fellas, welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having us. Greetings to you constant listener.

7:58 So, you know, I couldn't be

8:00 Usually like talk about bourbon like as we usually go into this like it's because we usually have a master distiller somebody get coming on but you know you guys bring a different dynamic to this so we'll talk about bourbon here in a little bit. I kind of want to learn more about you all like talk about the origins of the band. Maybe talk a little bit more about the type of music y'all do as well because I know it's kind of it's like folk music maybe like iron and wine mixed into it kind of talk about like, where you all get your you know, your vibe and everything. folk music iron line is very, very good. A good comparison. We like to call ourselves rose a rock occasionally was a rock Yeah, sleep folk sleep. That's good music to procreate too. Yeah. Yeah, these are the things that we call Yeah, we describe our music as like nobody's working out to Penny and Sparrow leads to the best of our knowledge. nobody's getting a good pump while they listen unless you enjoy your workout as a stroll. Yeah, cuz that is what we can provide a good stroll soundtrack can do that. We started doing music and

9:00 College because I needed a place to stay. My wife knew this guy and 11 other guys that lived in this huge house. That was basically a shithole frat house.

9:10 By the way, not at all. I'm just letting you know this was that many people in a small space with very little air conditioning is filthy is filthy. So I moved in and Kyle and I pretty quickly found out that we both liked music and both sounded pretty okay when we sang together. And man, the rest as they say sort of history. We just kept plugging along and on a small home rig that his mom and dad got him for Christmas, we recorded our first song with the sheer expressed intent of having music that our kids could someday listen to. And here we are eight years later with no kids.

9:46 That's pretty cool for one day they'll listen to it. Yeah, if we procreate Yeah, they'll be able to hear it. They'll be able to they'll be able to get down on it. But I mean that your all's vibe like what you all do. You know I think I read that you make serious songs, but you're not very serious people.

10:00 All right. And that's kind of like the kind of vibe y'all put. I mean, we were down here talking before we started recording here. And we were just cracking jokes left and right. So kind of talk about the music, like where the inspiration comes from the lyrics, everything like that. Yeah, we that's I mean, what we mainly try to do is write basically autobiographical songs, things that we're working through things that would be cathartic to us.

10:26 But that's usually the more internal stuff, which is great. I mean, we talked about it all the time. It's the the deeper conversations Andy and I have.

10:35 But yeah, I mean, I don't we don't live in that part of our we have, I feel like the majority of what we do is, as humans is just light hearted. Yeah. And I remember years ago, when we started doing this, we started taking ourselves really seriously on the front end, right? Like we were we featured ourselves being serious guys writing heartfelt music with good lyrics and the least on stage. Yeah.

11:00 So we'd show up to these shows, and then we would, you know, barely move an inch and not talk and not laugh in between songs just to try and, you know, sing our ass off. And then I remember my dad talking to us after a show one time and more or less said, Jesus Christ, let him come up for air. I think the point he was getting at was like, Look, this isn't who you are, when you're not onstage like, this is sort of more of a character, you're creating this overly serious, you know, facade. So just do you see like that I didn't raise an overly sensitive son that would happen to all that he definitely raised an overly sensitive side is true, he did do that. But he also raised a sort of a goofball as the his old man. And so for what it's worth, it felt so much more free just to be the same person on stage and off. So the same dumb shit jokes that we make in the van is what you get here on a podcast is what you get on stage and we do a show and that feels really nice. Yeah, I mean, I had the opportunity last night to go and check you guys out on the show because you guys are doing your your nationwide tour right?

12:00 Now and I know it's going to be finished by the time this this wraps up. But it's funny because you all you mean exactly exactly what you just said, right? It's it's serious songs, and then you all bring this different vibe to it where you like you try to bring it up lifting. I mean, at one point, Andy, you're doing this thing of like, All right, let's get the clap. Let's get the beat going. And then you would raise your hands slowly, slowly need said as I raise my hands. I want to see your hands in the air. And then when I make like this musical cue of like, stop, everybody stop. No, I don't want to see repeat. And it'd be great job too. Yeah, really impressive. Yeah. And I think I even told him when I do that, I want you to shut the hell up. Yeah. Which is aggressive to say to a crowd of paying customers who came to see you do a thing, but really, that just point needs to be gotten across. And they do they went into it. It's awesome when people are I mean, maybe it's because it's bourbon country. Everybody was slightly hammered, but they really they bought in which is nice. Yeah. I was about to say how many venues do you go to and there's like four roses posters just blasted everywhere over like Morgan headliners last night. Oh, dude. It's this is a different

13:00 chunk of the country okay like people here get the brown water and they're down with it as are we but I feel like we had three gifted bottles to us last night and they were all good Oh really? Yeah they were all nice we had an eagle rare we had a Woodford double oak forgetting one from a another distillery but we got gifted these bottles and I was like, man, it pays to play in Louisville. Yeah, so good. That's awesome. And yeah, free bourbon is always the best bourbon. It's a great bourbon. Yeah, it tastes better. Yeah, that's what we're down here to we were sitting there sampling from my bar before we started here. We had started with some dusty and I think we got we got Booker's right here is what we're sampling on right now. So that's a fact and constant listener. You should know that. We are in a layer. It's not just a studio, we are in a bourbon layer. There is lighting fixtures made out of barrel hoops. There are thousands of bottles surrounding it thousands. Like if it's a powder keg in here, one errant match and the whole blocks going up in flames. Yeah, we're gonna make sure we don't have a gas leak little bit later. He just

14:00 Right, yeah, positive of that.

14:02 And so, you know, the music is fun and it's interesting and you all are been going and I kind of want to talk a little bit more about, you know, the road and the tour because I'm sure you've got fans. I remember there was one fan last night and I think she tried standing up or waving she was she was on the right side about five rows back and every song she was just going crazy. What's your craziest like fan moment that you've had? That's a good question. I'm really good one you know, Skid Row comes to mind. Yeah, Skid Row probably comes to my most likely that mean Andy with a fan

14:36 who loved our stuff. The the man had a few too many drinks and was kind of shifting between being extremely excited and happy to see us like tears of joy seeing us and telling us how much he loved us to literally almost throwing punches at us. And he had some just Jacqueline

15:00 Hi, I'm going on while we were there, oh, he was a psychopath. And he shall remain nameless. But he went by will actually this is not on his birth certificate. So I think it's safe to say this. He introduced himself as joke. That was his name. Yeah. So rule number one. Yeah. Don't be friends with anybody named john. Sure. Yeah. But junk like Kyle said and met us with tears in his eyes saying I'm so glad we got you here. I'm so glad we got your you're going to show them you're going to show them and saying a lot of nonsensical like the hell does this guy mean? So Kyle, and I basically consoling him. Yeah. While he was meeting us, which was really sweet. Like I took it. We're here. We're here. Thank you. So we're also glad you're here. Thank you for this is a gig, right? Yeah, we can still play. And he then proceeds to, you know, basically ask us a really basic question. Like, you know, how far was a draft day? And he's slurring over himself. And as Kyle goes to answer the question, it was just act it out. Yeah. Let's just do a little role play. Yeah. Okay. We're used to this. Yeah. Okay. You I'll be

16:00 junk UBU Okay, and how how long was draft today? Oh the drive Shut up. fuck up, dude.

16:10 So the important parts of that interaction dude, buddy, buddy that's it. Yeah, I took away that took away that's the most important thing that you could Garner from that story is that he said shut the fuck up dude, buddy. And we have ever since us dude buddy as the perfect you know, hey, screw off they want to call somebody and that was with a fan so I don't really know what to do with that other than Hey, thanks, john I'm glad to exist in this weird world of ours. But no no crying outrage like on stage when you're up there and he was just cool calm and collected in a seat. Oh, no, there's no Well, there were some crying outrages he kept screaming out the phrase make them wonder over and over, which we still to this day are not sure what he meant by that. But we're doing our best still junk. If you're listening to this. We are trying to make them wonder every night every night. I think that's

17:00 That's the new lyric to our new new title though new song is what it's got to be. Yeah, it's totally true meta man named junk in Skid Row. We're going to make them 100 mega one day we are eight years later still making them.

17:13 Oh man, that's fantastic. So I guess we'll we'll kind of shift a little bit and we'll kind of talk about bourbon. So kind of talking about your all story with bourbon like, Where are you introduced to it? How did you kind of get into it? Because you know, Kyle, I know last time we talked it you know, you're part of like the r&d next and we talked you're part of like the the hunting party now like you're searching for bottle bottles and stuff. So I think we both got started, I guess similar in time, our our manager Paul's a big collector of bourbon. And he's got this thing called the steel speakeasy, which is really rad. And he was the one who showed us for the first time like, Hey, here's the really nice stuff. You've had a lot of the shitty stuff. Let's try some really good things. And I'm going to talk you through some of the taste notes, some of the flavor profiles just

18:00 Some of them get you get your feet wet a little bit. And I took to it really fast really enjoy it as this Kyle and for me one of the things that keeps me sane on the road is hunting for two things, where books and bourbon so I'll go to liquor stores just along the highway as I'm driving in the van or used bookstores and it's just really neat once you've been introduced to how big this world is. how big the world of dusty hunting is how big the world of rare bottle hunting is, and raffles are like the secondary market when you get invited into that and you see how crazy it is but also, you know, the community family aspect of people tagging you in a thing because they know you like Booker's 20th anniversary or they know you've always wanted to find the Booker's right bottle and so they tagged you in when they thinks a decent price in the secondary market. This world's huge man. And so once we got our feet wet into it, it was sort of snowballed from there and now, and now I'm a moderate alcoholic, and I really like bourbon a whole lot. That's where it's thermometer. It's good.

18:59 Good lottery

19:00 Good don't go over that that edge right? Yeah, that's all I need to worry about. Do you think like how early on when we were down in the speakeasy were you overwhelmed a bit when we were like down there with 1000 and a half bottles known because you and Paul are my Sherpas?

19:14 You guys tell me everything I need to know about.

19:18 I love that answer. Yeah, thank you. I felt comfortable. calm. You made me wonder down there. That's that's how I wanted your first experience. Be. I was it was I tender and affectionate Ender? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Laughing that's how that's Yes. No, that's how your first time should be tender. Whisper the notes. Yeah, it was a bourbon into my hand and give me a soft, gentle kiss on the cheek. Got It's hot. And I'm glad that I didn't know 24 proof

19:50 tenants.

19:55 Man, we just fell in love with it pretty early on and now it's on the writer every night.

20:01 It feels neat to be able to try local stuff and and go by I love baby distilleries. I've got like this massive affection for seeing someone knowing that the craft took so many years to make, like there are these people who gather buddies together started a small distillery, and all of a sudden, they're like putting juice and barrels, and they have to wait. It's a waiting game, and they hope and their fingers are crossed. And so when good stuff comes out of that, I know that for me, it's inspiring because I know what it's like to crockpot a creative idea and wait for it. And that hoping is part of the thing that you're doing, whether it be making music or making booze like you just have a hope you really desire to make a good thing. You put everything into that you can knowledge know how expertise, advice from other people, and then you sit and you wait and hope. And I have a lot of value for that. Which is one of the things I think I'm drawn to bourbon about and baby distilleries, because I think that that's hard to do. And it's risky as shit, man. Oh, yeah. And that's good. That's cool to me. I love that. Well, Andy, I mean, what

21:00 can talk about more about what was there like one bourbon or anything like that that got you kicked or hooked on it or anything like that. Like there's Oh yeah. So kind of talk about what that what that was. It was Booker's for sure it's my favorite to this day. I mean, the way that I always when people ask us our answers the same we both love Booker's and my usual response depending on who I'm talking to with why I love it so much is a the nostalgic pull of it being the first fancy bottle that someone bought me like the first fancy ish bottle and being blown away by how spicy it was. And I tell them the reason why it's my favorite is it it's a it's a bourbon you can have three ways. It's three Bourbons in one bottle. You that is a totally different flavor profile, if you haven't need versus how you have that with a drop of water swill let it open for a minute versus having a couple cubes in there. I mean, you are literally changing the flavor complexion three totally different ways. And as the ice melts, you're going to get a fourth and fifth and six depending on how long you sip on it.

22:00 So any chameleon bottle like that, that exists I'm fond of, which is normally Why go for the hazmat shit. I'm just a huge fan of high proof stuff like that a chameleon. I like that I don't think I've ever heard that one I'm Can I steal that you can share science yours now I'm gonna go ahead and pour in the ship for me and it's all yours will keep going.

22:19 So, Carl, what about you? I mean, I know he said, You know, he said he'd like Booker's as well. But I mean, was that your first introduction was somebody that said, like here drink this hundred 25 proof stuff. You're gonna love it. So I remember Andy and 2011 when he was like, man, I think I like bourbon. That's, that's great. That's really cool. And at the time, I didn't know too much about it. I just started doing a text message. Really? sweet man. Yeah, thanks, man. Cool personal epiphany. Yeah, enjoy a good Tuesday. And I remember you would you drink.

22:51 Just like all of the standards, just like a makers are bulletin, any of those and you are just learning about them. And I do remember when you got your

23:00 First, your first bottle of the good stuff daddy's first book. Yeah, it was very sweet. isn't good time. But then that was it. I feel like it just came over. And I mean, we at the time, were already spending so much time together that I was part of the whole process. And that's just not like yours like guiding Angel, like the whole thing. I'll continue on Go on. How would you say that I'm your enabler and that I to have made you a moderate alcoholic through this process? Because I'd like for you to not say that. I can't not say that. It's definitely true. Yeah, it's very true. Cool. Yeah, we're in the same spot. Yeah, I feel great about that. Our liver is fine. It's fine. We're young. It's length. And if anything, if anything is Old Ironsides Yeah, there that thing can take. And it's fine. I'm say take a look. And I don't know if I like that. But it's okay. Because you really can you have to look at the end. I'm working on that. But yeah, that's how I just and you is for sure my enabler. Through through all of it. My dad is more of a scotch guy. And so I knew about scotches and then I think Andy's

24:00 My whole family in fact about the bourbon world because my dad now will go and buy anytime he knows we're going to travel through hope by the biggest bottle of bourbon that is possible to buy and will be so excited about it. It looks like a super super soaker tank

24:16 it's literally like I didn't know they made them that big It looks like a novelty inflatable but it's real and it's full of Woodford any acid every fucking time. Yeah, I'm so grateful.

24:26 And it's almost cash by the time you leave. Well, I wouldn't gonna say it but yeah, but yeah, if I had a nickel for every like ambling midnight to 2am walking down the stairs at the young house. I've had that huge daddy bottle I'd have loads of nickels.

24:43 So kind of talk about more your your all's camaraderie because you know you grew up together went to school together in Austin. But you don't live in Austin together anymore? Correct. You guys are separated by a state now. So like that. Yeah, that's my talk. So kind of talk about like how that all works out.

25:00 You know the band The friendship, everything. Yeah. Will you talk about the band? I'll talk about the friendship. Yeah. So as a should we should we start with that? Let's go friendship then you do? Yeah. Okay. So I don't think that friends. In fact, I know this. Friends don't spend as much time around each other. Normally as Kyle and I do. I've lived with Kyle in three different homes, both as a married individual, me, my wifey, his wife and another buddy and his wife all lived in this house in Austin in this communal type setup, where we would be going on the road, and our wives and friends all get to always share meals together. And so we lived in married housing together, we lived on the road in various hotels, we lived in San Antonio and a house together. We have lived together in college so much time has been spent with this human. And over that time, you learn a few things not only about each other, but you learn about how to have interpersonal relationships, but

26:00 Right, like you learn like if I again, the amount of mercy extended and mercy received and hard conversations had and celebrations and things to be more and and births and funerals and everything that we've had as a friend group is so much higher than most people have just out of sheer proximity. We live together we work together, we have slept in the same lucky into bed more times than any friends have ever done before, at least to the best of my knowledge. And when we were recording back in the day, we would sleep on couches, just head to toe unlike one individual couch that that was a fact. Yeah, and we didn't enjoy that. One is not

26:42 to say somebody enjoys

26:44 that somebody is a me.

26:48 Yeah, we just with the sheer amount of time that we spend together I feel like not only is this my best friend, but there's there's something deeper than that. It's something that's close enough to begin and it comes

27:00 Out of hard fought years and time spent, there's no substitute for time spent ever. There's no sub for it. I've spent thousands of hours with this person talking about the scary shit in life, the beautiful things in life. And everything in between. And the end result of that has been something that, like I said, is closer to kin than most things that people will ever have. And closer than brothers, that I know like most people that I know don't even have this relationship with their kin. And that has definitely fed into how we do music. And this is a little bit weird for us to live in a different place. Now. It's the first time in our lives that we live in a different city different state. And granted, we still see each other hundreds of days a year as we toured together, but it's definitely affected the music in a good way but surprising. Which brings me to the next phase, the music kind of what would you say our friendship is when it comes to music and its creation. Well, me and Andy we hate each other. So we have to be separated by at least by at least a two to 300

28:00 jerril Simon and Garfunkel thing, right? Yeah.

28:03 And well So Andy we both moved to Alabama for a season. And Andy fell in love with it. I also loved it but wanted to come home to family were to be back in Texas. So I moved back. And so to record we wanted to stay home just because it's a lot of travel if if we don't.

28:21 And so we've just learned learned how we each have our own little individual studios that we go to we record with our buddy Chris Jacoby in San Antonio. And he goes and records with Chris buffet. We each have our own individual Chris's that we record in their studios. CRISPR get on the phone, right Mike Chris over here, his Chris over there is perfect. And we just do the method. I do a lot of the melody and he does a lot of the lyrics. And

28:48 when it comes time to record, we just do our own individual thing and kind of just mash it all together and see what works and technology allows it. Pretty crazy thing now. Sweet. Not so hard. Yeah. Sweet, sweet.

29:00 Internet. We couldn't stream it. Who knows where to be here, man? What was it I think, who was at the open for you all last night. Caroline Spence, Caroline Spence she had a she had a really funny kind of like opening to one of her songs and saying like, oh, I've got like a couple million downloads on Spotify with this one song. It's amazing that my parents have figured out how to use Spotify

29:21 solid Carolina.

29:24 So who's the messy one between you to me? No, I were both pretty messy. I would say I you're very sweet to say so. I think we can both be tidy when necessary. But I think I would probably get because he's more form and function like he would never asked me to pack up the van. What I do, and I've learned it now I've learned this about myself and it's fine. I am not efficient in a lot of movements. And so I look at Kyle and I'm like, Kyle, if you will please do this for you. Or will you do it and then teach me so that I can now know how to do it your way spatial reasoning I did not score very high.

30:00 On I knew lots of synonyms but I did not know how to put the blocks in the right order so that they would fit neatly into a van he does so I think that would mean that he's cleaner well that's that's like a dad move right you know to pack up a pack up the truck to go down to Myrtle Beach or to Florida or desk whatever it is and you're sitting there playing a game of Jenga with all your luggage I've got that I've got that gene whatever it is in my tool I it's so hot The other day I literally it did happen where you start waving fan and yourself like Oh, it's so nice to have a man around.

30:34 And I would honestly say something like that every time I see impacting man like I'm so proud of you. Amy peg the van the other day and the doors wouldn't shut up. He was like trying feebly trying to shut both of the doors to say Cleveland was not nice, but it was just calling it what it is and painting a picture. Yeah, typecast. Listen, it's here. It's banned. I think I literally pushed you out of the way was like I got this. Just

31:00 I'm out, and then I put it together. Oh my insolence my silliness that I would even tried to back the van but did but in terms of who's cleaner, both of our suitcases explode. That's why I'm entering every single hotel room we enter. That's true. They do so to answer your question, maybe it's a push, but the more organized of the two of us would be Kyle. Yeah, I don't be somebody I'll take her. Yeah, you'll have to look at its object. I'll take it. So when you're on the road, are you are you all constantly talking to each other is like one person napping while somebody else is driving? Or is it you know, you said like, you've talked about everything deep and everything here. So is that is that what does that what driving on the road is like for you also, we, the last four days. Before we got to local, we had four days of six hour drive days each. So within that six hours, there can still be two hours of talking, and a good two hour nap and then two hours of just

32:00 Looking at your phone or whatever else you want to do, or just staring off into the distance Yeah. And that's about what happens each time is just a mix of all of those and whoever is in the driver's seat gets the ox cord and gets to choose what we listening to.

32:15 So you got into on the road got a good system. Well, I mean, it's almost guaranteed. You're going to look at see a few things with Ryan, our tour manager, you're going to get a steady diet of pop divas, you're going to hear lover by Taylor Swift over and over again. Then you're going to hear him switch over to never getting to know Anderson's lover, that whole album on repeat that some Shania Twain and I will never weasel in when Kyle's in the seat recently. It's been a lot of RMB RMB Yeah, yeah, I don't I can't listen to anything but right now, which is just fine some slow moving kind of get you in low juniors. Yeah, that's what I'm looking in this home a little bit as I will always Yeah. Manny, what are you alluding to? I didn't

32:58 just like thank you.

33:00 Yeah, you mean you can make it look at Andy as much as you can, but it's like yeah, after a while you're just like, all right. I miss home a little bit. Yeah. Listen the RMB stuff. I get it, man. It's nice. It does. That's been that's been on the docket for him for a while now. So it'll probably bleed into the next record somehow. Yeah, for me, it's guaranteed I will sit in the front seat. Probably be quiet for like 20 minutes and then put on my Stephen King audiobook more Stephen King podcast. And they will both look at me smirk a little bit and put their headphones

33:32 such as life man such as life. So So I mean, so you're a podcast listener right. So the Stephen King stuff, so you don't you're not a fan of just like listening to whatever's happening. Going around as you're driving then. No, not so much for me. Yeah, I think we're gonna let him have a Stephen King. No, I'm sure he's a beautiful human, Stephen King, and I hope to meet him one day, but please, I I just haven't read his books yet. Now, I'm not a book reader either, but I can listen to a book

34:00 Totally that's like why they invented movies. Like why would you? Why would you read a book? Yeah, we made it past them. Yeah. It's like when you sit down with a book for a month when I can get finished in an hour and a half, and see the problems, my shit on y'all and I don't want a problem here in the zoo, Andy's a fast reader. And so he doesn't get that he can finish a book in a few hours. And that's where he finds enjoyment. And it still I've been reading the same book this whole tour and I think it's like 150 pages. Oh, God, and like it's half and more pictures. Right? Yeah, it's actually it's actually shell Silverstein it's a really good novel. He's gonna love it when he finished it. I could barely finish it goose goose bumps novel anymore, right. So man, choose your own adventure. Yeah, sweet RL Stine. I love you.

34:42 So, you know, kind of shifted a little bit back to bourbon real quick before we start losing listeners talking about this random.

34:49 So, you know, kind of talk about, you know, have you all visited the trail, you know, come into Louisville, Kentucky, like have you been to distilleries like is there something around there that that kind of fascinates you

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36:55 Give you been to distilleries like is there something around there that that kind of fascinates you? You know

37:00 IC getting ready to jump in? Yeah, I have I have been up for my 30th birthday, which is four years ago now I went my good friend and Florence drove us down, went to the bourbon trail saw a few distilleries, so bullet Buffalo Trace. And one more that is eluding me right now. I can't remember. But I got to see a lot of the stuff behind the scenes in terms of like I didn't know about the ALGEO and orphan barrel stuff and how I was involved with bullet and all that stuff is my first time ever being behind the door. That was my first experience was the bullet one and then I went to Buffalo Trace which sort of like the Cadillac for me. It was lovely. Never seen a brick house never been inside one before. I was the the perfect target for the guy that sits down and watches the video in Buffalo Trace and was just like

37:47 just just full, full geek Boehner and loved it so much and I'm sitting like asking questions of the tour guide I'm that guy. I was. I was really loving it. And like man, I again, if

38:00 I lived nearer to here I do it so much more often because it's such a cool thing man. I know that there are other worlds as big as this in the booze world like I know the the world of smelly A's and wine is huge and if you want to go to you've got favorite vintners and favorite years and all that famous and maybe sometime that'll be a thing that I get into but right now this is like the second most passionate affinity that I have is bourbon and I love that and Stephen King's a good number one to have it is pretty good

38:31 again selfish plug listener out there if you know Stephen please connect him with my people.

38:38 Hey, will you tell me Can you show your Somali a skills with this bourbon with what we're having? Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, let's put you to the top I

38:48 want the listener to hear what I basically what I go through, but I get to go through Oh, and welcome to Andy's bourbon tasting. This is imagine you're my ear. Yeah. If you switched by normal

39:00 Take the left earphone out, put it back in, but the right one and I'm all around you. What I'm drinking today friend is Booker's right. This is the first fancy bottle I ever bought for myself. My wife was furious. I found it in Texas, or outside of lower Greenville. And here it comes to me via the bourbon pursuit podcast and his willingness to share his nice booze on the nose, a stringent rye smoky, very sour ish In my opinion, which I love very much very much right? But this drinks more like a bourbon very spicy, stays in the back of your throat right above the tongue just lingers there for much longer than it would the burning taste that you'll get with anything high proof and Booker's is always there and always present. But this even though it's Ryan astringent, in my mind still has a sweetness that is not normally present and rye whiskeys for me that I love, which is why I would compare it to a bourbon and that is my tasting note for today. On Booker's right, thank you don't fantastic, slow clap for that. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was nice.

40:00 Right yeah sure head guys into it. I mean, because Booker's ride this was this was one of the most, you know, highly anticipated and allocated releases that came out a few years ago. It's long gone from the market who knows if we're ever going to see something like this again, because this was a batch of ride that actually Booker know put down, right? I mean, this was this was something that happened a long time ago. But what was it that kind of got you into the kind of the hunting scene Andy like what got you into trying to find where bottles or anything like that? I think it was the first time that Paul described to me how few of these get made and the stories behind him like you just alluded to the fact that if I remember right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Booker Booker know when he was there, and like his latter years, this was the only project that outlasted in terms of his actual life. This is post mortem released. Absolutely. But he had his actual hands on the mash bill on the creation process on the front end. And the story of that to me, I knew this was a bottle that I had to hunt down and find which is why I have it in the bunker because

41:00 Booker's get that in style jackpot For me it was the first thing that made me fall in love with bourbon I collect as many of their offerings as I possibly can the best use of ever had my life is Booker's 25th anniversary and so for me hunting began with this bottle which is pretty cool that we're you know, having it in this podcast but the first time I ever remember bouncing over to multiple different liquor stores when I news release week for this, and I was just hoping, you know, and I was I was so green, like, didn't have a fucking clue. I'm literally walking to places like, do you have it? Yeah. And they're like, like, I would get laughed at so hard. But this one, like, younger clerk at this liquor store was like, I think I can probably get one. I mean, I think that the dude that we had promised to bailed, and it was just too high of a price point for him at the time, and I was like, I'll do it. And again, wife was none too pleased until I explained like, I'm not gonna do this all the time. We don't have the cash for it. But I saved up my money from the road. We're good. And it feels really cool to say that it began a love for

42:00 Hunting dusty is later on when I learned what they were finding out old distilleries that I occasionally can find on the secondary market that people sell. And where do you go for this? Like, how do you hunt? Yeah, that's good question. I mean, like, I would say that you're you're in a decent position. I wish I should I say you probably wish maybe when you started doing this, like six years ago, you were on the road. Yeah. When you're on the road. That was prime opportunity way back then. Right. Because even back in 2013 2012 timeframe, the stores were still littered back then they couldn't sell the stuff sure until 2014 hit 2015 then everything just was scarce. It was just a ghost town and some of these liquor stores to find allocated bourbon. So yeah, to talk about your story there. Well, the hunt for me like it begins not on the secondary market. For the most part, I love going to hole in the wall along the road hole in the wall, seemingly dilapidated liquor stores and checking behind the front rack and what I mean by that

43:00 I've had incredible luck in in and around smaller towns and Alabama checking package stores and looking at old like literally they'll put the new version of wild turkey one on one of the front. And then if you look behind you might be lucky enough to see like you can tell cork difference you can tell label difference that I've found at least six bottles of us Austin Nichols wild turkey that way just from looking in the back and that just means that nobody goes into that package store and buys wild turkey. They had to buy it to get the new label to keep their rep happy or whatever. I found age state at old charter and found some old log cabin some really great best old saying yeah some some really cool dusty finds just from people who've like only these package stores for years. And you know, don't know what they have and I'm not out there trying to scam them because I don't do any I don't resell anything. My my meager bourbon collection in my little closet of my house is all for drinking. I wanted to have specific bottles set aside for specific purposes in my life.

44:00 When a buddy has a kid, we're going to open up birthday bourbon. When there's a death in the family and I want to celebrate the life that has been extinguished, I want to open up the Booker's offering. I want to open up the dusty of the bottle and bomb bomb beam that I have from the 60s. That was there. I mean, he was in the barrel when Kennedy was alive, like, Are you kidding me? Like there's so much of this stuff that I see a bottle that there's limited number of and I immediately see a story. And I see who was alive when it was first in the cask and I see all of those things that matter to me as a storyteller and my other job. And so I admittedly I wax nostalgic and poetic on everything in my life. And I've done that Full Frontal with bourbon and I'm very pleased with it. It just makes the hunt so much easier because it makes it something fun to do. And so the secondary markets like the last stop the last stop I'm like, I really want to thing but I know that there's no chance I'm gonna be able to find it in the wild. But for a person who hasn't done that, what does that even look like the secondary market secondary markets tough man sometimes you can invite

45:00 The private Facebook's and lots of stuff, but you've got people online that'll buy a bottle for X number of dollars. And then they will take that MSRP and they will multiply it by 1000 million dollars. And then say yes, you can have this MSRP bottle of $170 for the meager pricing of 1200. Gotta and it's brutal but to be honest with you, and this is just being really blunt and whether this gets me castrated by bourbon fans or not, there are times where the story the juice is worth the squeeze the story of the bottle and me never being able to get access to that bottle outside of this really jacked up price on the secondary market is worth it. Like I'm saving up for the sheer fact that someday I'll be able to get a bottle of Booker's 25 be for probably 850. Now I think 600 was a couple years ago, but that about right azz pretty much on point or out there. So looking at that I'm like, okay, I want that and and is the story and the amount of time

46:00 And dinners that I'll be able to have that with and back porch conversations.

46:06 Is it worth it? And the answer is, of course, of course it is. To me and that's not for everybody but if you spread out that price point over the amount of time and stories that I'll be able to have it on it then yeah towards it. So there you go. So if your listener out there, you're a fan of these guys. You got a book or 2015 around. There's there might be a private private concert you could have in your backyard for a bottle who knows I'll rub your back. Lots of stuff. There's a lot of ways

46:33 so I mean, are you so Kyle I'll ask you so when when when you're on the road and Andy's driving or you're driving or whatever? Does a DC like a rundown liquor stores like pull the pull pulled over pulled over? We gotta go, Sam. Yeah, we both do, because I know that's what he did. So I'll see what it'll be like, is this a good looking one, we need to stop here. And most times, ZS there's really not a there's very rarely I know, to go into a liquor store. So we'll go pretty often and I know what to look for.

47:00 Now, which is really fun, I know how to say the things to the guys behind the counter to see if there's anything back there. Yeah to play that game game, and I'm in it now, which is nice, but I know that uh, whatever whatever we find whatever the bounty is. We'll go to Sir Baxter, which is great. And then I'll get a couple polls off at every once in a while. Pro tip for you hunters out there, just one. I won't spoil all the tricks. But one, a really great way to get in good with a local liquor store that sells fancy bottles is before you let them answer upon asking if they have that midwinter nights DRAM or whatever really cool bottle you're looking for you immediately say before you ask before you let them talk after you've said do you have this is Do you have anything in the back? You say also if you do have it will open it right here right now and will each have a poor and that is a great way to immediately be like I've seen people turn on a dime when they were going I gotta tell me No. And then I'm like, Is it worth

48:00 it for me to like have a poor of this stuff right now with the the owner then buy the bottle from him. Yeah, because it does two things in one thing you get to try the juice, you get to try the juice with a friend who also probably loves bourbon because he's selling the stuff he pedals it and then you're probably going to get future offers or future looks because that guy knows that you give a shit because then you're not going to resell an open bottle. Like for him I find it for most people I find that disarming because they know that I'm not in this to make cash. I'm in this because I love the juice. I love the story and I really want that bottle to open up and drink in my house and it'll get open eventually might as well now yeah, exactly as will make it happen. So take that and run with it listener So even with the with the fandom that you have anything like that nothing's like nothing's free coming your way. I mean, I talked about bourbon all the time and yeah, all I get samples sent to me But yeah, for the most part, nobody sitting here sending me allocated bourbon, but even in the music world. Nobody's like, Hey, I got all this Booker's in the back waiting for you guys, right. We got occasional offers

49:00 The occasional offers of people that are kind enough that want to bring us bottles and we get gifted because they know that we dig it we can give to a fair amount of booze on the road which we love the idol amazing. Please continue doing really great, really love that's a good trend. Let's keep that rolling at the end of every tour we do a bourbon lottery because we'll have

49:18 a decent amount that we've both accrued by ourselves and that we've accrued from GIFs from people and so we'll get to the end of a tour a leg of tour and we just go one for one we like rock paper scissor who goes first then we go one for one and first Captain second cap Yeah, and usually those bottles that we still share but we just keep in our house and get to slowly sip on but we're both at each other's houses enough that like we basically choosing which ones we want to have a little bit more of a drink anything at my house and whenever I'm over at his house like he's got bourbon, I'm drinking that too. And so it's literally like it's a first Captain second captain and the only way that he's not going to get it as if he doesn't show up in time for me to finish that bottle.

49:59 get hurt. Yeah.

50:00 So I guess the way to get in good graces, you gotta feed these guys bourbon. Yeah, you guys are bourbon bourbon geeks at the end of the day, which is awesome. And I think that's one of the main reasons why we love to have you on here is because I don't think there's a whole lot of people, we could go and talk to better musicians out there that could have this level of conversation with us as well. Because, you know, like you all are, you're in the trenches, too, right? You're, you're out there, you're hunting, you're driving, you're looking for stuff, and you know what to look for. Right? I think so. I mean, and again, this world's huge still learning what this is like, I've only known about dusty for like, three years. And so like the amount of knowledge that you can amass in this world is massive dude, so crazy to learn about who used to own Old Crow, what years were good. When did it stop being great? When is it is it making a resurgence? Like all these nuance things that you can figure out about this world is huge. And to me, that's just fun. It's just a fun thing to start studying. And so it's changing really quickly. Yeah. Like, especially some of the smaller distilleries around the nation that are happening. feel like there's no

51:00 More to know than ever. It seems like Yeah. It's just an exciting time to be somebody who loves this stuff. Yeah. So if I remember correctly last night, Andy, when you were on stage, you were drinking bourbon. That's fact. Yes. I mean, you were you're drinking bourbon between the songs like you had I think he had a poor with some some rocks in it or something like did you know I was getting we were both gifted that we were gifted

51:23 some old forester on stage. And before that, I was I was Yeah, and we had Eagle rare. In the cup Eagle rare walking onto stage. We had a good amount of bourbon last night just from people bringing us random poor, which is great. How did how did fans get to know that you all were into bourbon? I don't know if there's a time on stage that Andy or I are not drinking bourbon. And I think it think it became apparent after a few years of us just just constantly in between songs, having people. Yeah, okay. And so I think and then eventually people would buy us Bourbons, and send them

52:00 onstage and we started, we just would say how appreciative we were, and we would drink them, which is also great. And that on top of just talking about it,

52:11 whether it's social media or random interview questions like print interviews when they ask, I mean, again, like I said, it's like, second most touted affinity in myself. And so when it comes to both of us being asked on interviews, what do you into? What are you on the road to stay sane? Aside from drinking, we don't drink this thing saying, Yeah, but it complicated, complicated answer.

52:35 But But in all seriousness, when people ask us what we're into, like, it's one of the earliest things we can talk about, like we like drinking bourbon, we like collecting it. We like trying new stuff, local distilleries, like all that. It's a natural overflow of something that's already cool, that we have loved for years. And so when people caught on to that we are very grateful that they have decided to say like how cool this is a way that I can say, Hey, I like your music. It's given me a lot of solace. Have a pretty

53:00 It all the moments that have like music, your music has been a part of our life for a few years now and we'd like to give back. And a lot of times they choose to give back with sweet hundred proof goodness, we are pleased with that choice I was about to say and kind of tail off on that last one is like when somebody does come and says that, you know, your music has inspired their life, like kind of talk about that, right? Because I mean, this is we're getting a little deep with this, but kind of talk about like, what that means to you all as artists. To be honest with you, man, anytime we get to be a part of a thing that's been healing for somebody. Anytime somebody comes up and says as it happens fairly regularly, now, we've toured enough and we've seen enough cities and met enough people that people get to come up and tell us a story of of a moment in their life that they got through with the helping hand of catharsis and music, and we've gotten to be a part of that. And so anytime someone steps up and says that a good thing resulted in emotionally beneficial thing healing. catharsis happened because of our tunes, and

54:01 I don't know that there's a better compliment you could give our music we a lot of why we write our music is is for that it's our own healing. A lot of the times it's it's pretty often autobiographical. And I know that's not the only way to write music. I mean, in the pop world, you're not looking to write something that's heavy or something that's that's going to be specifically cathartic. Yeah, I think carry on a grand day said, you know, leave your boyfriend for me or something. Yeah, yeah. So, a little is emotionally deep. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of shift, it really can be.

54:32 But the fact that someone else would also feel what we're going through kind of it just as pretty binding for us. It's a really cool thing.

54:39 To although our intention wasn't to be like, we want to write something specifically for other people, because we write it for ourselves to know that other people are also connecting with it is just really, it's a cool bond to have with somebody to be like, yeah, we're, we're in the same thing together a lot of the time. So it's really cool. It's really cool for us when anybody tells us right on absolutely

55:00 And so I guess another thing to kind of tail off on from the last question before then is you know you all are not also discriminated in the whiskey world as well because I think it was a city or two ago you did a shout on Instagram saying somebody sent you some of your favorite cinnamon flavored whiskey. Oh yeah, well let's Let the record reflect a few things one will drink it if it's wet and it tastes decent. We will

55:24 we will say the the honey whiskies we just have had we had too many bad experiences in college can't do it so much honey and few can't do it. Yeah, do not good. It's bad to like I just barely heard before. Okay, good I it's it's very triggering. I get I get like American honey shell shock and it's no good. But for the most part, if it's wet and curiously tasty enough to try we'll we'll do it and somebody said for whatever reason we didn't talk about it. They didn't talk about I think we I think we just

56:00 just mentioned it on a whim, did you? I don't remember. I don't remember doing that sometimes you just they're talking on stage you know and that's fair. We could have rambled and said something about fireball but like four shots of fireball appeared. Oh gosh, and well and four shots later like we were like crossing arms on stage and like newlywed couple shooting fireball and then they flirting with us on the line. Yeah, it was great. It was such a such a

56:26 fireball reached out to us is really great. We never responded to him. We need to offload it back. Don't get there sending us a care package.

56:34 No idea What's in the bag. I hope it's just a huge fucking beach ball with fireball on the side. So take it Yeah. Cool. Sounds great. I think because last night you were talking about like, you know, trying to figure out how do you get sponsorships and you're like, you're like what do these guys actually stand for? Now? I think you figured out what you all stand for total fireball. Yeah. Honestly, it's like bring us your strange it like if you could say like, what's your thesis statement for how you want to

57:00 Like roping your sponsors like who's strange out there who wants to do something really weird? Because we're into that that's great for us. We're we gave a random shout out to white claw and great hopes that they'd flirt back with us. We don't even know to what end we don't we're not asking for anything. It's just like what will they say if we start and I also just want to pit white clog against fireball second half storm of the century baby we say go for the highest bidder go for our affections. You don't care Be it cinnamon popery whiskey or if it be this sweet, sweet blackberry White Glove go Yes, sir. Vodka. There you go. You'll start wearing like fireball jerseys on stage now like when you're going out there. That's okay. We didn't sell out 10 out of 10 would do it but I would only do it if they didn't pay us money. I'm like I'm not getting paid for this. Just want the leather jacket. I just want this jacket because I think it's dope.

57:52 I guess one more thing about the band that I want to ask you because I don't think we ever talked about it back in forecast when we first met is the name

58:00 Penny Sparrow like, Where did the name originate from? And how did y'all come up with it? So when we were roommates, we had one other roommate in our room, and it was way too crowded for all three of us. It was basically bed dresser bed dresser bed dressing. And he was an author or a writer.

58:19 And he wrote under the pen name of Penny and Sparrow, and we were getting started. We used to just go by sports teams, because we Why not? It was nothing was really official for us. So anytime we would play a show, it would be like, Hey, we're the Utah Jazz happy to be here. I read the Dallas Cowboys. And by show he means like when somebody in the community was like, hey, we've got a fundraiser and there's gonna be like 13 needy people. We need we just need somebody to play matchbox. 20 covers and

58:48 we're like, oh, we know Rob Thomas. And so we did that a lot of media by sports. So you go by sports teams, and eventually we did one that was paid out, be it not very much money.

59:00 And so they came up to us and basically we're like, Hey, you can't be a sports team anymore. This is making me look bad. Please don't make me look bad we just pick we please just pick anything that's not Utah Jazz. Yeah. And so our roommate who went by opinion Sparrow, we basically just asked them were like, Hey, can we just use your name and then anything we do in this room will do under the guise of finance barrel? And that's where it just kind of stuck and we just kept it and here we are. We years later doing we picked that name when we saddled ourselves with that we didn't think that this was going to be where we would be no seven years later. Yeah, if we did we would be the Utah Jazz Oh yeah, man. What a great name.

59:45 But we picked it not be Karl Malone is their middle name. Oh my god, Stockton him alone baby. NBA Jam Tournament Edition all day. We just get to wear jerseys on stage all the

59:56 way to go all serious anyway.

1:00:00 us cry over spilt Yeah Do we have this name? Yeah, we gotta move on.

1:00:04 But yeah man we didn't we didn't think it was going to be a thing we thought that goes like the idea of making it a that's a sliding scale subjective and weird anyway like we get to do music full time and we've gotten to do it full time for a number of years now which is a a crazy fact that we're crazy grateful for but we didn't expect that like we weren't looking at that we picked this band name and I'm not even saying it would have been different had we had we looked at each other. We're going to make it Kyle you and me man to the top baby. But like maybe we would have picked that name or maybe we would have considered it a totally different avenue but honestly part of what I feel in my chest is just happy to be here. I can't believe this is still happening. So glad. I mean, was there was there a turning moment or something where you're all like, Oh, this is this is real? Like what was like that? That gig or that venue or that whatever it was when something like turn you're like, Oh, I can quit working or I can quit doing I can just focus on music.

1:01:00 The time like what was what was that moment for y'all?

1:01:04 That's tough man like a singular moment eludes me like it because it feels so built upon brick after brick after brick of next steps. And every every career is different in the music world like, I've never it's all different fingerprints, so it's hard to really decide. like to say that that's how it works for every single person. Yeah, some people might have a moment. But there's like the meteoric talents of like, like you mentioned earlier, like we love our underground and like, there's the meteoric town, this human who's so good, who can dance on the heads of pins has a whistle register. And before she's 26 can have this unbelievably gigantic career. Because I mean, she's, she's got the goods for it. And then that's so many people's story and not a lot of people but some people have that other people have sort of what we've had, which is, honestly man, it's been this weird, crazy slow building block trajectory upward, where more and more people tell their

1:02:00 Friends about our music. And that's made enough money for us to make the next record, and then make the next record and get a little bit more notoriety. And a few more people know who we are. Few more people start listening. And it's felt like a really beautiful mixture of creative and blue collar. And we couldn't have routed this for anybody when new musicians come over and ask us like, hey, I've listened your music for years. What advice would you give us? We sort of look at each other.

1:02:24 And tell you what we don't give up. Yeah, I can give you our autobiography in a few minutes. But there's no chance that that would work for another person. Like I don't know. It's just like, play your ass off. Sing your ass off, sing for as many people as you possibly can. And only release things that you love. Yeah. And speaking of releasing things you only love talking about finish a little bit because it's your latest album, the one that just came out with. So kind of talk about it. It is different than our other stuff, which I did. I think it was in the beginning phases of my RMB phase. So there's a little bit of RMB grinding just

1:03:00 This Yeah, just a little bit. It's a small amount.

1:03:05 It's more rhythmic than our previous stuff. And

1:03:10 it's it's really fun album, I'm, the way it came to fruition was really cool the way that we recorded it because we were in different states. We didn't know what we're going to end on and what we ended on. We're just really happy with. It's just a fun record to sing and play. And, yeah, I feel like he's right. He brought new melodies to the table. I got to bring new world bank stuff for this record. I don't know that. I mean, we've had fun making all the previous records. But to cows credit, this is the first record that I can look at and say I think people will leave this record saying that's fun. Like this is a mix of high and low intermingled with heavy emotional death but not sacrificing joy. Like there's legitimately jubilant songs on this record, which there's been joy in our previous ones but this one is like straight up, crack a smile and pop your head

1:04:00 Which is a different color to paint with. For us, we got to paint with a few times on this record. I feel like it's decidedly still our DNA, still our fingerprint, but we got to do a thing that we wanted to experiment with, which is we wrote songs that were new. we're experimenting with different soundscape with different production like all that stuff. So I like this being another brick in the wall of a career because that's what we've been building on.

1:04:26 Next time just wait because it's going to be straight genuine Boys to Men show to see because I'm deep in the RMB now so it's just going to be insanely RMB so enjoy the like, middle folk arose a rock Yeah, if you will, because now it's gonna be Rosie RMB I heard the still RMB of ice a baby. Yeah.

1:04:47 So you know, as we kind of like, tail off on this, you know, I think I talked to Joe and we said we could probably use a sound bite here on the podcast too. But there was also one song that when we we talked about it last night You're like, this is our fastest

1:05:00 song writing the newest one on the right you know it's kind of little more upbeat something like that so it's blisteringly quick The name is escaping me it's like don't want to be with that you don't want to be without you. That's it. So So kind of talk about the vibe behind the song and really what you're trying to accomplish with it. Yeah, it's a we love Simon and Garfunkel we we love.

1:05:22 Paul Simon wrote an album Graceland that is really unique and out there. And between those two Graceland album and just everything Simon and Garfunkel, we realized that we wanted to do a song similar to either that or like Cecilia,

1:05:40 from Simon and Garfunkel and also looked at our previous work and just realize,

1:05:46 to for us to change and evolve, we wanted to start the foray into faster funding music. And this was just kind of our first attempt at it. And, and so we basically just got bourbon

1:06:00 I think and you don't have to think anybody wants the fact that that's what we got. That is what we got. Yeah, that we had it we had a reference track, which is sort of like, anybody who's a musician knows that when they go in, they may have a certain song that inspired them or like production wise, they're like, I'd really like to have some of this DNA in this track. And for us, I feel like it's Akin, if not cousins with the song Cecilia by Simon Garfunkel, which to me is this really intense emotional song with a lot of depth and a lot of angst and sadness all wrapped up and really jubilant package. Like it's so heavy, so vibrant, so full of life. So rhythmic and all of that is him talking about like you broke You ruined me, Cecilia, you ruined to me like you are the object of my affection and you have decimated my heart. And so all of that is wrapped up in this this attacking Miley rhythm smiley rhythm. And so for us we're like man, what would it be like to write a reincarnation Love Song where you looked at somebody and said

1:07:00 every iteration of you that you ever will become or have been I'm into and so before the next life before you pick what you're going to be just tell me so that when I'm done I can pick the same thing. And so I wanted to write something of that much affection that much emotionally enamored devotion in a really smiley track and we did it I think it's a home run I think everybody loves it I mean even last night people were were digging it so i mean it's it's my one of my wife's favorite tracks on the new album is so yeah, so keep it up. I mean, I whatever whatever you all are doing keep drinking bourbon and keep writing songs Definitely check to both Yeah. So we're going to kind of wrap it up here so make sure that you follow Penny and Sparrow they're on all the social media is Instagram Twitter, probably Facebook official page to right there. So we got that. Right there. Everything. We don't have a tech talk yet for no tech. Sorry, guys. That's what's up. Now. We need to get on Snapchat. Can they find you on Snapchat? Oh, no. We're not on Snapchat. It's too much effort.

1:08:00 themes I know Yeah, just like I'll probably for

1:08:07 about 3am after this. We like

1:08:12 bourbon porn. Download the app

1:08:16 for sure. So make sure you go follow Him and all the socials. Make sure you go check out Finch, checking out any streaming service you can. They've got albums coming out talk about that as well, because I know we're leading up into Christmas time kind of talk. Oh, yeah, we got it. We made a Christmas album A few years ago called Christmas songs quite apropos. And this will be the first year that it's always been able to stream since we released it a few years ago, but we're pressing it's vinyl. And so it's not too many. So it's limited, so you gotta go snack.

1:08:43 But yeah, just like, just like bourbon. Yeah, this is your bourbon hunt. It is our Christmas album on vinyl. So go get it if you want one. We'd like that. Awesome. Well, fantastic. guys. Thank you again for coming on the show today. You know, understanding your story, your connection with bourbon. I think it really connects with our

1:09:00 Fans too. And hopefully we made some new Penny and Sparrow fans out there as well. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, awesome. Absolutely. And so follow these guys on social media follow us bourbon pursuit Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We don't have an album but you already know you're already subscribing to us on podcast. So maybe one day there will be a vinyl. Absolutely. Gosh, that'd be terrible to listen to a bunch of guys about bourbon on vinyl into it.

1:09:24 There's a market always good. Always good be. So with that we're going to play you out with don't want to be without you. Cheers, everybody, and we'll see you next week.

1:09:37 weary encounter. And whatever God said it's your turn to choose. Would you rather come back the following circle. See owners garden the crescent is for all that you prefer to see live from

1:09:56 only no emotions.

1:10:02 Saman

1:10:06 season

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whiskey Quickie: Old Forester 1910 Old Fine Whisky

Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:30:37 GMT

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNm45V5Ie14&w=560&h=315]

On this Whiskey Quickie by Bourbon Pursuit, we review Old Forester 1910 Old Fine Whisky. This non-age stated bourbon is 93 proof and $55 MSRP. Let us know what you think. Cheers!

Whiskey Quickie is brought to you by Barrell Bourbon. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.

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227 - Catching up with the Johns of Smooth Ambler

Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:30:25 GMT

John Little and John Foster of Smooth Ambler are good friends of the show. We’ve had them on before and they’ve been doing a lot of stuff recently to keep their audiences engaged. They have a new video series, divulge their plans for future whiskey production, and talk about their latest launch of their MGP based Old Scout. Tune in to hear their take on what’s happened to American Whiskey in the past 2 years.

Show Partners:

Find out what it’s like to taste whiskey straight from the barrel with Barrell Craft Spirits. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com.
Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.
Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com.

Show Notes:

KDA Press Release: https://kybourbon.com/2-barrels-for-every-kentuckian-distillers-top-9-million-barrels-for-first-time-in-modern-era/
This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about blind tastings.
Tell us about your video series on YouTube.
What's been happening in the past two years?
When are you going to use the new make?
What is the game plan for Rye?
What's the plan for the American Whiskey?
Let's talk about sourced whiskey.
Do you see Big Level as always evolving?
Do you consider yourselves a craft distiller?
What impact has Smooth Ambler made in West Virginia?
What's the Whiskey Wagon?
What benefits have you experienced from the Pernod Ricard deal?
Where does the name Smooth Ambler come from?

0:00 We can play a game of like, which john is not wearing pants right now.

0:04 Neither of us are.

0:18 Welcome back, everybody. This is Episode 227 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And we've got just a little bit of news to run through. And that's because last week, I forgot to report that the Kentucky distillers Association came out with a new press release that was pretty impactful. And that's that they are announcing that there are now two barrels for every Kentucky and aging in Kentucky last year by filling more than 2.1 million barrels of bourbon and aging 9.1 million total barrels of spirits. That is now the record of the highest inventory in the past 52 years that has been kept by the KDA. And this is the first time since 1967, that distilleries have failed more than 2 million barrels of bourbon

1:00 production has skyrocketed more than 350% since the turn of the century, triggering a $2.3 billion building boom expanding production and warehouse capabilities and growing the tourism experience that you have seen that is now significantly boosting Kentucky's tourism profile. But distilling still remains one of the highest tax of all 532 industries in the state and distillers this year are paying a record $25 million and barrel taxes, which they say is discriminatory tax that is going to hamper growth and investment. You can read more about taxes and its impact even more with tariffs and safety and responsibility with the links to the press release in our show notes. After winning the 2019 World Series last month, Washington Nationals first baseman Ryan Zimmerman decided to celebrate with his favorite drink. Of course you know it bourbon. He had a group of friends that spent the weekend in Kentucky choosing their own personal selection of Woodford Reserve and

2:00 Zimmerman said he planned to celebrate the World Series by gifting a bottle of Woodford Reserve of his personal selection to all of his teammates and also is going to give them this friends as well as other people that came to Kentucky and also for other wedding gifts down the future. You can check out Woodford Reserve social media for the pictures from his visit where he got to hang out with who's been on the show before assistant master distiller Elizabeth McCall heaven Hill is unveiled a $17.5 million expansion at the bourbon Heritage Center in Bardstown and this now includes new tasting rooms, interactive experiences, and much more. The expansion which is only phase one of a multi year multi million dollar project is marked by three new tasting rooms, the Fitzgerald room, the library, and the founders room, all which look out on the Kentucky countryside. There are now two exhibits featuring the story of the Man of Steel. He credits as the father of bourbon, Elijah Craig, and the larceny exhibit where you can learn more about Johnny Fitzgerald. Lastly, guests can get

3:00 More immerse themselves by doing it all new you do bourbon experience. And this allows you to be a quality control agent and heaven hill where you get to look at bourbon in the microscope, learn how to nose taste bourbon in bottle and label your own bourbon to take home. But there's still more to come as they just added a roof top restaurant and bar that overlooks all the barrel warehouses. You can plan your trip now by booking your experience at heaven Hill calm. This past weekend, Ryan and Fred were invited to emcee the auction at the bourbon Crusaders barrel through hunger event. This is an annual event where the incredible single barrels and other older bottles get offered up for charity. And there's a few special barrels that went up this year for auction. First is a nine year will that went for $55,000. Next is the oldest private selection of four roses bourbon ever, that one for $65,000 and a very unique single barrel of EH Taylor that we've know if you're been around long enough

4:00 Never seen any more. It's only happened a few times on rare occasion but that went for $75,000. There a few more barrels overall as well as other bottles, but this event in total, raised $375,000 for God's Pantry and dare to care food banks. This event happens in Louisville every year so be on the lookout to purchase your tickets when 2020 rolls around. Now for today's show, we've had the John's a smooth Ambler on and you can catch those episodes back on 79 and one to four or you can go to bourbon pursuit calm, sort by distillery and click on smooth Ambler. We love having these guys on because they're fun, light hearted and very transparent on how they operate. Definitely what we would call role models of the bourbon whiskey industry. Now here's a quick message from Joe over barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char.

4:53 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell craft spirits. Tasting whiskey straight from the barrel was truly a life changing moment for me in 2013

5:00 I launched barrell craft spirits so everyone could have the experience of tasting whiskey at cask strength. Live two spirits with barrell bourbon.

5:09 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. If you've been watching my YouTube channel, you know about my Pappy versus the field series. Well, I want to take that a little step further. What I'm doing is is I'm tasting these whiskeys blind up against Pappy Van Winkle, which is largely heralded by many to be an incredible iconic bourbon that people spend booze and money on. I have this belief that what you taste one day, you may not taste the next day. And that belief was proven true in the first two episodes of Pappy versus the field. And one week I picked Pappy Van Winkle to be my favorite out of the flight which had some heavy hitters in there like old forester birthday bourbon, and then the next week, I pick Pappy Van Winkle to be dead last now.

6:00 The week that I picked it dead last, it's worth noting that I did come off a vacation. I had been traveling a lot, and I wasn't really consuming a lot of bourbon. So my palate was, I would say more was fresher, cleaner, less hardened by, you know, bourbon tastings and days previous and the first time I had tasted the field. And so you have one piece of evidence that you do indeed taste differently every single day. And then in my comments section, a geneticists wrote me and said, You're absolutely right, and that your taste buds are like fingerprints. So everybody has different taste buds, and I find this whole concept fascinating. Now, it's worth pointing out that for years, I have written reviews and I have stated that I believe that you really shouldn't, you shouldn't give a score unless you've tasted it three times and that way you can

7:00 Really make sure and confirm those tasting notes. I've gotten busier. And it's more difficult to tastings three times. And so you don't see as many scores from me as you have in years past, but I want everybody to do this experiment on their own. Find a bottle of bourbon that you really enjoy, and you taste frequently. And I want you to taste it on three different days in three different weeks and just jot down your notes, tell me what you're feeling what you're tasting, etc, etc. I think what we might find here is we might find one of the great puzzles in not just bourbon, but really everything. Why is it one day you want a hamburger? And the next day you want to talk? Oh, why is it some days? I think the Big Mac is the most beautiful, delicious thing in the entire world. And there are other times that it makes me want to hurl, you know so I think we, as humans, we have this incredible fluctuation of what we want on a constant basis.

8:00 I want to nail it down for us in bourbon. I'm going to find out what days that I like certain Bourbons and what days I do not. And so this this experiment begins and I hope you will join me on this journey. So that's this week's above the char. If you want to follow me on this journey, make sure you're subscribing to my YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube and search Fred Minnick. And if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook. Just look for Fred manic until next week. Cheers

8:38 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon getting here talking to some of the guests that we've actually had on the show before but we're here wanting to get an update to kind of see what's been happening because the last time we talked to the John's of smooth Ambler we were kind of talking before the show started and I was looking back and, you know, we talked to Joe

9:00 Little it was back on episode 79 before we start even hitting that, that three digit count back in December of 2016. And we talked to john foster back for a few minutes, it was part of a series of interviews that were taking place at whiskey live that were in Louisville, back in July of 2017 is when that one was released. So, you know, coming here today is really an opportunity for us to kind of get an idea of like, what's, what's new, what's happening, what's been changing, you know, they got bought out, are they driving Porsches and Masada is everywhere nowadays, right? So it's, it's it's going to be interesting to kind of see like, what the influx of capital and everything like that is really doing. We've known for a while that the MGP days of the old scout brand had been dwindling down and now they're revamping and something new and so we'll kind of get an idea of like, what the differences and where the go forward mentality is. We've got a lot of fun questions and a lot of good catch up to kind of see what's been going on with with me

10:00 Ambler out on the West Virginia side of the side of the nation over here so I'm happy to do welcome back on the show we've got both of the John's here so john little the CEO and head distiller and john foster the National Director of Sales and Marketing fellas, welcome back. Thanks for having us, man. It's gonna be back. Yeah, that'd be back a lot of changes mere into since the last time we spoke. You know it i mean it's it's been crazy it's it's it's finally I think it's like finally happening. People start taking podcast a little more seriously. So it's like I feel like I feel like we finally made it at this point. I don't want to seem like I'm kissing up here but people say good podcast seriously. There you go. Yeah.

10:42 And so but you guys also you do something fun as well. You guys do your own kind of like video series that you post on Facebook and YouTube. You want to talk about that one a little bit? Yeah, that kind of started is really a couple things. It was it was

10:58 the idea of sorta

11:00 Talking to talking to people and talking to customers the way that john and i sort of normally shuck and jive when we're together and to talk about

11:13 let people have a little insight into our brand and what we're about in, in our personalities and kind of do something different. You know, it's like, what what, what can we do that other people maybe are not doing or maybe, maybe won't do, which is, you know, put themselves out there and answer these silly questions about you know, what would you rather be a ninja or a pirate or, you know, what's the proper way of installing a roll of toilet paper? And you women have been we've been having fun with it. It's got a huge, huge reaction. And, you know, we'll we'll get around to talking about whiskey eventually. But you guys are doing a pretty good job with that already. And we thought you know that that end of the spectrum is covered. So let's, let's answer the real hard pressing questions. Yeah.

12:00 Would you rather fight a horse sized duck or duck size horse? Right, exactly right?

12:07 things that are really going to be important, those are the topics we want to discuss

12:12 here around the distillery like that, that dumb shit comes up all the time, you know,

12:18 john and i walk in the bathroom, the toilet papers installed incorrectly. And so we have to have a big company meeting and review the proper way to install the toilet paper or, you know, like, just that kind of stuff comes up here all the time, and we just thought it'd be a little little slice of that and it that'll keep going and just keep get better. It reminds me of just like, like Seinfeld a little bit, you know, you're trying to find just like the humor in everyday life that you deal with and try to make it make it like the really the big topic of what it is. Yeah, well, you know, the most recent one that we did, involved, involved quite a bit of bad language that was bleeped out and of course, we

13:00 passed it through through our legal department, let them look at it. And at that point, I realized that it really didn't matter to me whether they allowed us to do it or not. I was just satisfied that me and john had forced this billion dollar, you know, thousand dollar an hour legal team to sit down and watch, sit down and have to watch this thing and analyze it. were like, just that alone is worth the price of admission.

13:24 I mean, that's, that's awesome. Because we don't have a legal team here. We just we basically sit there and we record we're like, all right, is this gonna piss anybody off? Because

13:35 we understand there were enough podcast discussing, but you know, what makes what makes the, at least in my opinion, what makes a video interesting in the in our world is is not necessarily the discussion about the whiskey. It's the discussion is the story that makes it interesting, right?

13:55 I think you can do a review of whiskey to a fairly short thing and it's an ad All right, but the stories are what

14:00 I really enjoy whatever that is whether it's a personal struggle or finding history about, you know, how, how a brand came to be or, or, or some history about how the whiskey came to be. And so that's really what we did. And we felt like there was enough of that out there. And, of course, it was hard for, you know, for guys like us to have our own brand and to talk about just us all the time. So we decided just to do something that was a little entertaining, right? There was not so much stuff and so much about the whiskey. And there's plenty of people already doing the story. So, you know, like, you guys, so we thought we would just do something a little bit funny. That was kind of a break from the norm and let people see inside about the silly stuff that we talked about here or, yes, it's a good way to do it. And a lot of that is serious whiskey made by mostly serious people.

14:47 That you know, we're we take our business very seriously. We take the quality we put in the bottle very, very seriously. We take it very seriously that that hopefully people enjoy what we do, but we sure as hell don't take ourselves too seriously. Well, that's good. I mean,

15:00 is really what this is all about, you know, the idea of when we started this podcast to was to was to really bring the personalities behind the brands. And and that's something that you all have been doing for a long time, because you've got, you know, of course, you've got dedicated Facebook groups that are all about smooth Ambler. And you come on there and you'll talk Exactly. I mean, you make you have fun with the community, right? The community that's built around it. And you're also very transparent in what you do. Whether that's somebody that says something on one other form, you know, I know I've seen john in there, and we'll go and correct them or anything like that and be like, no, this is exactly what's happening. Right. And so what you're doing is, is providing a good value to the customer base. And not only that is we think of a customer base, we think of like what the Facebook groups really are. And that's like, it's like the one percenters of bourbon. Right? Let's be real. Yeah, right. Then we sure sure it's an important 1% but you're right. There's for everybody that knows me and john and you and, and and knows every little thing about

16:00 Whatever we put the bottle there's a bunch of people that don't know any of that stuff. And it's just a delicious whiskey that they like.

16:07 So let's let's kind of talk about the whiskey and the brand and kind of what's been happening in the past like two years. Because we've had a few different releases, there was some drainage of the MTP stock. So kind of talk about really like, where, what the timeline of what's been happening here in the past few years. We've been making whiskey for a long time, and we started sourcing old scout in 2011. And, you know, we never dreamed that the amount of whiskey that we own was something that we could actually sell. I'm going to be quite honest with you. When we first started sourcing whiskey it was, I was, I think the most we ever had at one time was about 3800 barrels. And I never imagined that we could sell 3800 barrels. Turns out, it was easier than we thought.

16:53 It happened quicker than we ever imagined. Do You Do you remember the cost that you paid for for those NG

17:00 barrels when you first started. Yeah, they were I mean, I think we had barrels as low as maybe, you know, $650 as high as we can haul money for them but even back then they were 950 bucks is probably a $900 average or something I think. I think I'll work that out one time for Fred minute on story. thing was about 900 bucks was the average and higher prices than that to the crazy crazy ridiculously low prices, given what the prices of barrels go for now, and that's a that's another subject I once had an offer to buy 10,000 barrels and turned them down. The most costly mistake that we ever made that I ever made, and all of us a lot of money. In hindsight, thank thankfully my business partners only laugh about it and don't feel bad.

17:48 pretty lucky about that. Yeah, I mean, that's what we we all kind of see like the MGP priceless nowadays. And yeah, you can't even get any h doc and the stuff that they do have. That's only just a couple of years.

18:00 result. It's outrageous. And so it's it's it's very very hard I think for a lot of people to look at sourcing today is like the main part of their business too. Yeah you know so you're right and it has crazy we're we feel fortunate that years so our business was climbing you know like this and we were buying like this right there was it was it was climbing exponentially and we were buying a much much smaller pace and and that that really came to hurt us right we can we feel the thought we had some deals throughout the years to acquire more barrels wants the market got got hotter and all those things kind of fell through. And so really what happened isn't about to that we were that's why we never really slow the pace that much. We kind of went from was like two steps. We went from wide open to Okay, maybe we'll slow it down a little bit too. We just cut it off. And the reality of it is that we never could just never found that that stop. So in about 2016 we pretty much stopped selling all of the old scout that was old scout

19:00 Everybody calls seven, but we never call it about that. We just call it old scout bourbon. And we had old scouts in. And then we had a old scout rye and pretty much all of them just stop. And then we transition to some whiskey that we had for a while, which is the old scout American was. And so the in terms of old Scout, we had a bunch of things right old Scott was never intended to do what it is done. I think when we first bought the barrels, we were we had bought the whiskey thinking that it was like antique shopping for whiskey. So we would go out and find some really cool barrels. Now very similar to kind of what what you guys have done with this thing. Are you going to find a barrel here in a barrel here, we were going to do it on a larger scale, but the idea was to about 40 years, 50 years at there and 100 a year and that's kind of how we were going to go to market. And what happened is that it just it was really well received. And so we were trying to take advantage of a situation that we had fallen into amongst and and that's kind of what started the the part of the old scout. Now we're in a position that sort of

20:00 About that, that was in 2011 was when we first started doing the started selling old scout. And of course, we stopped selling and 16. So in about 14, we started buying whiskey at New make new make contracts, and we would buy it whenever we could afford it. And then over the years we've gotten some more steady purchases and then of course with the promoters transaction, we've entered into larger new make contracts as well as growing our own plan. So that's why old scout is being reintroduced, is because in 14 we bought we, we bought old scout products as we make so the products that we're buying are not spot purchase, we differentiate between a new made contract and product that's already on the market. So you either have new made deals, you have spot purchase, and those are not spot purchase. These are products that we bought under contract as new money. Okay, so it's the progress is happening, right? It's there. So where do you kind of see the

21:00 I guess the tipping point of when you're going to start bringing in some of your new make because I think that you had been doing that with big level and some other ones you were kind of introducing your own stuff, aren't you? Not in contradiction? I think that was as well. Yeah. So so all scout bourbon, the old scout bourbon that we had for several years and and unfortunately eventually ran out of we just ran out of stocks that's being relaunched and re released this fall at the same age at which we first bottled it and the same proof at which we first bottle it. So it's five and a half years old, 99 proof and that'll that'll return to the marketplace of this fall and that of yours that that's based on five years. That's based on what john was saying. Whiskey we purchased in in 2014. Right, I got you now. Yeah, the American whiskey that we've had for a while will eventually be will eventually go away. The old scout the high rise

22:01 We'll come back in a 99 proof. And we'll also have a little bit of a custom pick a barrel program, also, as we used to do in the past, with that whiskey that will return later in later in the fall or early winter, this year as well. So on the on the sourced end of things, the old scouts coming back on the homemade stuff, a big level will will continue as not highly allocated, but at least partially allocated. It's not as readily available as for example contradiction is and it's getting a little older, you know, as as well, but that will continue this year. So really, all three of the families, as we talked about them are all going to continue to roll into into 2020. The old Scott Bourbons back contradiction continues to grow and be a healthy part of our

23:00 brand and as well as the homemade stuff and the level plus gift shop stuff. Yeah, absolutely. I mean and you mentioned the ryan there because there's a lot of diehard rye folks out you know you know that you've you've got a you've got a big consumer base of these these Ramblers that that love to collect and love to the bodies and a lot of them have the those old rise that are on there so kind of talk about what the game plan is for that. So we come from first of all contradiction is the biggest focus of what we do. Like the fact that it is what we think it's a delicious whiskey is now at a proof that's in price that are easily accessible. So it used to be 100 proof in about $50 bottle. Now it's 92 proof and it's a $40 bottle. And we one of the reasons we like it is because it gives us the ability to scale up and we still have a small plant even compared to some of these whatever mid majors some of these new places right the riffs or rabbit holes of the world.

24:00 You know, we're, we're small compared to those guys. And so the contradiction gives us the ability to scale up.

24:07 We The first thing that we will bring back is in this will in a timeline sense. The first thing we'll bring back as, as john said, the old scout and the old scout custom barrel pick. And then in about a year from now, we will add to the contradiction family. We already have contradiction, bourbon will add contradiction right into the portfolio, which will be a blend of some Bry made and replaces Indiana, Tennessee and West Virginia. And we're excited about that a lot of people I know have it tasted right out of Tennessee. So it is delicious. And of course another year of aging never hurts, right. So I think it's ready to go now. But we're going to wait a year so the old scout stuff gets good score sort of settled, and then we'll bring back old scout an old scout right in the future but in a limited way as well. And of course will bring out some of our own right but most people know that we that we only make we did very

25:00 But we've been making a ride based bourbon and we've been making rye whiskey for a number of years. And we'll we'll start to bring that out. It's still relatively young. It's still about four years old now. little less than four years old. And it's good, but I would rather I'm forced, I would rather wait wait for everything to be seven or eight years, all of it. Sometimes that's not financially feasible. No, absolutely. It's sometimes you just got to figure out like, how can we how can we squeeze this out just a little bit to buy us a little bit more time? You know? That's right. And we've had that we've had a market in the past it's been pretty extreme right bottles that are 65 to a couple hundred dollars. But the products that will be launching in the in the near future are much more about accessibility for us. So we really want to be in that kind of 40 to $60 range. Look, I know you you joked earlier about whether or not the deal made us drove miles or robberies and Porsches or, and the

26:00 reality of it is is no, we dropped out as your 2008 Nissan Maxima and I love it on the side of the road, I'll cry a tear and go get another one

26:12 before pickup drive, right? I mean, neither one of us came out in the promo deal, right? And, and so we still go to work every day, just like just like we always have. And in fact, we were motivated to do more than do more than we ever have. Yeah, I wouldn't want to touch on that little bit more here in a minute. But you also had talked about the American whiskey and maybe seeing that you say that's going to start sun setting as well. It is you know,

26:39 you know, as we always thought it was really good. And in fact as a bourbon group out there that's pretty well known and they did some blind taste on it was I think 13 other whiskeys and it came back to be in a blonde score it one hauling it straight bourbon. But it just doesn't. It's hard. It's a hard sell. Right? If people who doesn't say bourbon, it doesn't say straight

27:00 bourbon the store doesn't know where to put it, people aren't sure what it is or sure of the provenance format. And so it's just, it's a hard sale. So for that, for that reason alone, it's going to sunset. Yeah. And part of that reason be part of that challenge is

27:17 to be quite honest, if if the handful of people that had been doing American whiskey for eight or 10 years, whatever had been honest about what it was, and the groundwork had been laid for clarity, for American whiskey, I think it certainly wouldn't unseat bourbon or BB in the same zone, but I think it would be more well respected than it is. problem was, you know, you had you had a handful of brands that had a quote unquote, American whiskey, and you didn't know where it was from or what it was in the, you know, it was just sort of this mystery. You know, I remember in high school at the cafeteria was mystery meat like it was just whiskey like mystery whiskey or is it front row.

28:00 We can't tell you what what's the magic but what we can't tell you that, you know, you gotta waterboard the rep to find out whether it's even she'll filter not the work was sort of laid out that it was a redheaded stepchild from its inception. And we tried to be the opposite of that with our American whiskey. We tried to tell everybody as much as we could about where it was from and the way that we treated and all that kind of stuff. And sadly because it is still in a barrel getting older you know, the best probably the best bottle will ever sell will be the last ball

28:31 Well, I mean, I guess there's there's two sides of this right? I think you you kind of I'm sure it was a tough call to sit there and say like yeah, like we can't we can't fight this uphill battle much longer. Right? Because you are right it with with how hot bourbon is. It's hard to come in and try to bring in a new category. And think Yeah, like, let's try to try to play this and try to capitalize on this because yeah, I mean, it's it's tough when people don't see that that. Just that that seven letter word

29:00 Right there burger, right. And, and so when I when I think about this,

29:07 you know, if, you know you'd also mentioned

29:12 they'll have the last bottle or whatever. It also kind of gives you an opportunity here to say, well, let's just quit selling it will sit on these barrels for I don't know how much you know how longer and maybe the time will come around and then we can capitalize on it because once you get something that's a 10 1418 year old product, who knows from there, it might be something that people are going to go ape shit over at some point. It's the you're right and that's the sad part about first of all that's the sad part about selling any barrel that young Yeah, you really wanted to say a look out what about this five year old barrel taste like when it's 14 years old. But it for even for our size business or especially for our size business. That's a big gamble.

30:00 Right so we basically elected to what a little bit we have left to move all from and, in essence swap that for a high bourbon product in terms of in our, in our source category, right? We're going to we're going to say that and that we know what high ride did us and we're going to use this money let's use it to know what we know what basically was the the thing that got us here, which is the high Rialto and and you know when that person comes out this fall, you we all know somebody is going to taste it and they're going to say yeah, you know, I like it but I don't like it as much as that 14 year old cast drink single bear. Well, no shit.

30:39 Yeah, yeah, it's it's taste different than something that's nine years older. Yeah, yeah, we got it. I think. You know, I think that was part of the things that maybe you were alluding to Robin when people were talking about old scouts select.

30:53 Being you know, not being as good as a 13 year old scout select is not being as good as 13 year old MG

31:00 P. Well, yeah, that's right, right, there's a reason that one is $175 at the gift shop 160 $5 all over the all over the country, right? It's worth about 35% as much as the FTP juice, and there's some skin, that's kind of a joke. There's some scarcity to it as well. But we also we jumped in with that the Tennessee stuff that we have is, you know, is really a pretty for the most part. So one time release, it was a spot purchase, he thought it was really good use. And so we brought that out this

31:30 you know, over the spring and summer as well. I think there's, you know, we've been, you guys know what we've been doing too. So we know that going in and doing a Tennessee product was also going to be fighting a little bit of an uphill battle. But we also think there is the opportunity to help change the minds that are out there. You know, for the longest time people just in building their own people thought Kentucky was God, and then all of a sudden now you've got these MGD groups and now people think MGP is God. And so it's I think there's just going to be a circle and at some point

32:00 People are going to realize like, Oh, crap, there was all this high age, Tennessee stuff that was available. That was really good, too. And so we're going to see this where I mean, and I'm sure that you all are kind of seeing it too is that if you have a demand and you have a market demand for something that is 910 1415 years old, it's not available unless it's coming from a different state. Right? None of that stuff is available anymore. And so if you're looking for something that has that openness, that richness and complexity, some of that buttery tastes like, yeah, like, that's all you're only going to find it in one place now. That's right. That's right. You know, did it bother you when I came out? And people said, Well, you know, we just don't drink Tennessee decided that, that upsetting the dog you pick a really, really good barrel and then people say, Oh, it's just whatever because it's from Tennessee. Of course. I mean, I think like I said, there's the people have this. They have they have a blind think have blind thought about it. Most of them said

33:00 Most of them just haven't tried it. They just don't really know what a killer single barrel could be, especially at cash drink because a lot of the Tennessee stuff that is source there, it's on the market. It's not cash drink. It's not a single barrel and you don't really have that. Really that that background to sit there and say like, Oh, yeah, like now not going to do it. There's too much Flintstones vitamins everywhere. But you know, one of the things that john and I laugh about quite a bit, or at least, chuckle about and find a little bit funny, which is the first time we sent old scout raw out for a really good review. It was crushed. Seven years old 99 prove MGP ry. We stand alongside the 99 proof bourbon and the old scouts in and they were all sort of the two Bourbons were kind of mediocre and the ride was crushed. And I can tell you that if I had a chance to buy 10,000 barrels of old scout rye, I wouldn't leave this conversation right now. And

34:00 Don't

34:01 know for the money because that's how much you 40,000 I don't find to the money for it's just it was in such high demand. And so I think you have to remember that negative review are burdens that burden folks who are as you know, we we call them the whiskey nerds and that's a badge of honor. That's not anything that's that's a sort of, we're trying to diminish them. But they are they are emotionally involved in the brands and they get serious about their whiskey and they have very strong opinions and thankfully they're here because that's what grew our business but you know, there's a whole world out there there's the boat are right at seven years old and would still buy it if we had seven year olds. You know, I'm not I'm not a student of this I'm probably going to get the timeline completely fucked up. But it reminds me a little bit of, you know, the the MTP and now Tennessee and then little guys like us all over the US.

35:00 Where the cream is going to rise to the top with you and not just on bourbon but on some of the the American single malt. So been 50 years ago, good wine only came from a couple of places and it wasn't California. And it wasn't Chile, and it wasn't Central Virginia. Now, go Go tell somebody in California, California can't use good wine. Right? But in the 70s somebody in France would have told you you're out of your mind to think that any quality wine will ever come out of California. So I you know, maybe that'll happen with them. Maybe that'll happen with these Bourbons and rise and the single malts and, and as that cream rises to the top, you know, nothing against nothing against Kentucky. We love Kentucky we wouldn't do we do without an affinity for what they've done with that spirit. But I think the tide will eventually turn when people more people will accept it. You can have a kick ass ride from Maine and you can have an amazing vodka from Pennsylvania. You

36:00 La. I hope that happens. I will say this I think the difference is right is that within your scenario that looking for better to craft beer when craft beer came out the beer guys weren't making necessarily great beer in the craft beer guys were the Kentucky distilleries aren't making bad whiskey. They're making great whiskey. And so the craft distillers have work to do. And as our as this industry as a craft distilling industry evolves and becomes more mature, whiskey is going to get better. I know the whiskey we make today is better than the whiskey we made four years or six years ago, eight years ago. If you're not getting better today than you were six months ago, you should stop doing what you do and go do something else. And that's that's where we feel right. So some big level, a big level has a love it or hate it relationship.

36:49 And we wouldn't put it out if we weren't proud of it. But I can tell you this the big level we made four years ago, and two years ago, and six months ago, continued to get better and it got

37:00 by a long shot because we got better, we also run a different still right? But we got better, we got better at everything we do selecting grains and fermentation, distillation, distillation, style, aging, longer aging, whatever that is. So that's our goal is Johnson really early on our goal is to be really, really serious about what we've done and we've taken every step we've been obsessive about our productions of getting better. That's what that's what hurts your feelings a little bit when somebody tries something and they're just like, yeah, it's a drain pour. You know, I couldn't even drink it with a could even drink with Coke, you know, whatever. Like, I get it. I mean, and just because we like it doesn't mean anybody else has to. I completely understand that. But it's, it's as though you didn't think we tasted that whiskey 100 times before we put it in a bottle. It we just went out and blindly just chose some barrels and didn't pay any attention to how they tasted and put them I mean, not at all. Like we panel everything and no

38:00 anybody's gonna like it. That's okay. But, you know, trust me, if you don't like it, that's okay. But that because we didn't like it, because we don't bottle anything. We know what I mean. So I guess you kind of talked about that because big level was sort of that like hit or miss with a lot of the community. Right. And I know john, you mentioned that it's even kind of getting on location in some states and stuff like that. So do you see big level as kind of always evolving or transforming with releases as it comes out?

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40:31 So do you see big level as kind of

40:34 always evolving or transforming with releases as it comes out? Absolutely. Well, maybe not always evolving, but over the short period. I think in a couple of years, it'll reach its you know, where, where it wants to live in age and discipline and everything else. So I wouldn't say it always has got involved. But yeah, I mean, if the first big level you ever had was batch three, and now we're on batch 50

41:01 Give it a shot you I think you'd be really surprised at the change. And you know, it's it's not that we have this

41:09 badge of honor that it's improved now over maybe the first couple of batches. That's just a natural progression of our business as john said, you can't do something over and over and over again without getting getting better at it and, and I'm not ashamed the batch one big level, no matter how much anybody may or may not have liked it. We tasted it. We're in love with it. We made it with our bare hands. And I'm not ashamed of it, just because a later batch is better.

41:37 Absolutely. And so there was something that you still talked about a little talking about craft. I mean, do you really guys still consider yourself a craft distiller? I mean, because you guys are pretty big now. Yes, of course. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the definition of craft is.

41:54 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's like a minimum or volume or anything anymore. Yeah.

42:01 I think my first of all make it a habit to never talk poorly about anybody but

42:05 this is not talking poorly but I usually don't talk about other brands with me as Buffalo Trace craft is four roses craft, yeah, who's making better product and some of these other brands right. So I think that they're really good at their craft right.

42:21 There a lot of brands like that. But if you look at the way that we used to think of craft distilling as being some small plant think all of the whiskey that we have on the market right now is definitely sorry, all the whiskey that we made is on the market right now is definitely craft was right. It's whiskey that was made, you know, loading bags of grain, 50 pound bags of grain and us still and turn it vows by hand and, you know, the sort of more hands on really handmade product, right? There's this definition of like, what is handmade, these were really made really handmade, we still do a lot of hands on stuff, but it was a lot of labor and a lot of love. And you know, if it didn't work, john and i don't just go get other jobs.

43:00 We move, you know, there's not a lot in West Virginia. So we're putting a lot of risk. That seems very seems much like a craft to me. We have certainly evolved. I don't even know what our term is. Now. We're not even a mid major, maybe we're, I like to say that we're a large craft distillery. So that's kind of the way I think about it. So it's a hard term that we don't really use it anymore. It's also been talking here, we don't use it any sort of publication. I don't think we use on our website and yeah, I mean, nobody knows what it means. And as you know, there's so much BS in the market with market fluff right now, which is, which was the whole other problem that we have, right. We don't have a more our marketing story as we don't have a marketing story.

43:41 Yeah, um, yeah, we, I usually refer to us as a small producer, which I mean, you have to we don't use the word craft a whole lot of craft distillery a lot. And that's the distinction right, there's a quote unquote craft distillery and then there is the craft of making great whiskey and

44:00 Buffalo Trace and heaven Hill are good at the craft of making really great whiskey we think we are too. But sometimes you have to say craft distiller because other people expect you to, or you're introduced as, Oh, Johnny foster from craft distillery, but I really think of us as it's just a small, small small producers by the way. Yeah. So there's a you also mentioned West Virginia I think we kind of talked about at the top of here that you know, that's where you all are based kind of talk about what you know, over the past few years, kind of what smooth and was done for the area done for the community and stuff like that, too.

44:35 is interesting. We, I missed a meeting at the CDB today. I double booked myself for a 10am the convention Visitors Bureau year and one of the one of the things I was going to talk about, so I wrote some notes on that, or vows. It's interesting that you vows doing that for us Valley runs our tasting tasting room. Yeah, well, I think, Well, I know we're is proud of the impact that we've made in our small community.

45:00 As we are of the whiskey that we put out and at the end of the day, in any business you want to do, you'd like to make someone's life better. And whether that's with your podcast with whiskey that you guys go out and source or, or what we do the the goal that you're making you're improving someone else's life is something that you should always take with great pride and honor. And so we know we started with three employees, john and i and and one other person and we now have 23 employees, and those they pay we pay them way more than anything in the geographic norm. They get free vision and dental and that's how they subsidize medical care and they start with three weeks of paid vacation. And it doesn't seem like maybe doesn't seem like the world but we feel like we're doing a really good job. Our employees love what they do here. We treat them well. We just took a group of salespeople. They come in remember visiting here we took them whitewater

46:00 rafting and got sporting clays. And so we bring some of our employees to go along with those. Those things, I think we have something that's pretty magical. When when promote comes over, we bring the sales people in here and we're getting hotel rooms or we're spending money at bars and restaurants or say going to shoot sporting clays or spending money at the rafting companies that in essence, which is some agritourism

46:23 and the visitors right, so we have Graham Larry, and so there's gonna be 175 people from out of town, they're going to come in here and stay to room nights. And that's a big impact in a town of 35 people that they're going to this will be 350 room nights over two days spent here. And and that's a big impact for us, or for our community. And so those things where it's really super brought up and, and somebody Anna yesterday, so may that. Thank you for making me. Thank you for having some for having something for us to be proud of. And I said what are you talking about? And she says, You know when I go somewhere

47:00 I tell people that oh we have the distillery smooth Ambler in our backyard they go oh, we love some of them. And so they feel proud that they're from this little bitty town in rural West Virginia and they have something that is export across the world and is a really good product and that people can be proud of and that doesn't motivate you to be better every day.

47:19 We've also you know, when opportunities arise, to try and raise money for good causes. We've done that I mean, we had a terrible flood here in West Virginia as you may remember, a three years ago and we pulled out all the stops to raise some money for that. We had a live bottle auction in Kentucky. I think it's one of the one of the only places you do that legally anyway. In in Northern Kentucky, couple of years ago raised a bunch of money that we would 20 grand that we that we gave to an organization called Team Rubicon that deploys experienced first responders.

47:59 Usually

48:00 former military personnel in disaster situations,

48:04 the smooth Ramblers got together and raise some money for Val so that she could start a local dog rescue business which is her, which is her passion.

48:16 We helped out a friend of ours who used to sell used to be one of our reps with a different distributor and we moved away from from that with the porno thing. But you know, her brother was was having some medical issues and we saw an opportunity to try and, and and use some of our leverage helpers like we really believe in in giving back and doing everything that we can to help our community far and wide. Sometimes that community is here in West Virginia and sometimes that community is anywhere we could affect some change in and help people out if we are also in the middle of rural West Virginia and there's not a lot of diversity here. So we're proud of the fact that there are four or five members of our 23 person crew here that are in same sex relations.

49:00 Right, you want to be welcoming to everyone. And we we've been really bad about not talking about those things, the money we raised for flood relief twice the other community things that we've done that patients, we make charities in West Virginia, we've been we've been we've done a really bad job of doing that because we felt like we were pandering to people and we never want to feel like we're doing it just for the business. We do it because it's the right thing to do. That's a good way to put it. It's good to see that you all are advocating a lot of diversity because I think that's something that this industry is really lacking and and there's a lot of push forward as well. So it's great to see you all being on the front lines of that too. But there was one thing that you all talked about that I kind of want to do with you all and I'm going to go whitewater rafting with the John's maybe that'll be fun. Come on there we we love that. We do it again in two weeks. We got we got a crew from Texas coming in. I'm not kidding. Yeah, that we have people when people come here they go oh, this is they're amazing. I've been on 35 of these or I've been on the street

50:00 trips for 35 years is the best we do. And I tell them, this is what we do for for us, I want to tell them that we're treating them special, but the reality is we're not we just treat them like we would treat our friends, if we have the money personally to go do those.

50:15 That's kind of what we do, you know, that talking.

50:19 That's not talking about any other specific brand. But I one of the reps told us when they were here, like, you know, we get on the trips, and sometimes it's overseas, and sometimes it's here, whatever. And he, he was just, he's like, I really appreciate the time that you and john spent with us, because normally we go and we get if there's a founder some of those big brands, you know, the founders have been dead for a long, long time. But if they're around, you know, he was like, they might come down from their mansion in their body for a little while and like, hang out with you at a dinner and then leave. He's like you and john are like driving us around and cooking burgers and like, you know, we don't we never experienced that before. We just

51:00 treat everybody like like family here because it will say this for real reason, but I like shooting sporting clays. I like going whitewater rafting. Yeah.

51:10 It's not laying bricks. Yeah, we're not digging ditches. Yeah. And let's consider how lucky we are. But it's also not a it's also not just a marketing ploy, but it's who it's who we are. It's out it's how we roll so it comes very naturally and again, at the at the end of the day, it's like well what what can we do that that maybe somebody else can't or won't do and you know, we can buy we can buy 10 million smooth Ambler cocktail shakers and we can carpet bomb all of our significant markets with those but that's something that's really easy for somebody else to do and very common for somebody else to do we we just try and always when we can put up a personal touch on Yeah, just have a good party at the Johnson hopefully get a good TripAdvisor review after it. Well, and then yeah, so listen, we drive your ass around five stars, five stars.

52:01 You know, that says your Uber rating john Tesh?

52:04 But you know, that's what that's what the the whiskey wagon is all about. I mean that that the whole impetus for the whole idea is, let's take, you know, the way we would treat somebody in my backyard or over John's house or here at the distillery on the road, and that is Turn up the music and lay out some whiskey and put out the corbel. I mean, that's, that's not just a marketing affectations. Hey, we think this is a good idea to sell some whiskey. I mean, I should hope it sells some whiskey because that's what my job is. But it's also who we are. And that's what we do. Yeah, talk about that for a second too, because I remember seeing pictures of the whiskey wagon, but for our listeners who may not have heard of it, go ahead and kind of explain what it is. So it's a it's a mobile tasting room, in essence. You know, we saw a lot of those wagons, people pulled around these air streams and they were more like food trucks right. So bartender sits inside customers outside.

53:00 You serve to the customer and they leave. The whiskey wagon is a is a box trailer a big box trailer that it's got a stage trailer and the doors, the sides of the trailer open up become floors. It comes pretty big when you open it up. It's about 31 feet long by 16 feet once open and it has a guardrail around it and so the idea is that people come up into the vessel and hang out so it's just like well it says much like our tasting room is that box trailer can be so that's red walls which are in our trailer or in our tasting room rather it's real cabinetry real bar, you know saying that people can work in two coolers so we can keep stuff for cocktails or bottles of water in their speakers air conditioning. It's It's It's amazing and the reception has been amazing. We're we're doing crazy numbers we go to these festivals these beer bourbon barbecue festivals and showcase their we're going to want to knock it gets all the way to Knoxville right now john leaves here in one hour.

54:00 goes to Knoxville this weekend, and will have 1200 to 1800 people visited during a six hour span. It's absolutely getting crushed and we we love that, you know that start down fo one of the first of all Kentucky makes a lot of great whiskey as I alluded to earlier. But it also has a really good location, other places that people come to kind of in the middle of nowhere. So if you're here you've made you've made a real effort to get here. If you can't come to us, we're going to come to you and that's what the whiskey wagons purposes it's basically like a you see the one of the some of the Transformers movies. Yeah, like a transformer. If they were like a redneck transformer that like Hank Williams Jr. and whiskey a lot. That's what this thing is.

54:44 That sounds pretty awesome. I'm on board with that.

54:48 So we're going to kind of start wrapping it up real quick. But I you know, we talked about the porno deal a little bit and I'm sure not sure you get into specifics, but kind of talk about really, what more the benefits that

55:00 It really drive for you all. Is there kind of like a sense of relief a little bit that, you know, it's not completely just bootstrapped on you anymore, like kind of talk about what that means to you? Well, certainly from a financial standpoint, there's a sense of relief, right, as though as I talked about earlier, this didn't work, john and i move. Well, now we have a little bit more financial security. Certainly the business does, right has more financial security. They have been really wonderful to us. But that doesn't mean it's been it's always been right. It's always been wonderful, smooth sailing. It's, it's just integrating a small business into a corporate situation is not always easy. But as a friend told me, a friend who'd been in the business a very long time a former master distiller, they were as much like a family business as a corporation can be, and I believe that to be true. The things that they help us with are endless. You're talking about the ability to access everyone from audio

56:00 Ours distillers, to folks at Hiram Walker about production details, everything from grain receipts to bottling they know about it, they've been through it, they, they and we actually send samples here three times a week to them and they test them on some other equipment that we don't have, which is a really wonderful thing to have from a production standpoint. So we're better by a long shot than the way we used to be because of that. And because we now have a an operations manager, because we can afford to have those things. We're better at our legal stuff by long shot because they have a legal team and by human resources and helping us to put together these wonderful manuals and diversity policies and and help us to not just to put them together but to live them even better. So the whole deal for us has been absolutely wonderful. From the sales side, they have a really large distribution footprint and they have a ton of help and there are jobs job is is to find out how a small business is an

57:00 Actually a strategically significant to their district distribution partners or, or to them as well. And so that's what that's what our task is or our job is to find our place and then to grow that become more important in their system. And that that that's the challenge but that's not unique to pronounce that when I say there's not something it's not unique because there's an Oprah knows wonderful, that's the that's the the issue that any small business faces when they try to go when they try to grow and they try to get bigger and and the bigger is not just about money for us the bigger again is about opportunity. We want to share the whiskey with more people we want our employees to have better lives and we want them to go vacation more often and have nice cars and whatever that is that makes people happy in the world. And so all of that comes with with the deal and you first started I know you didn't mean it but when you say we got bought out

57:49 and it is I guess that's one of the terms but we like to think of it as a buy in. Right they own the majority of the business but they don't own all of it and and we are partners with them. Stay

58:00 So that's kind of the way we think of our business. It's sort of you know, whenever those acquisitions take place, particularly in the in the craft beer world, I mean, those guys are and their sir fear when their favorite brewery gets bought out by AB or one of these bigger companies. But the but even I think in the whiskey world, the for people like us the temptation is to think, Oh, well, you know, so now they're going to start, they're going to fit me in job with mind control chips, and you probably, I probably need one or start forcing stuff down our throat and you know, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. And I can tell you, I'm sure john agrees with me from a production standpoint, and certainly from the sales and marketing standpoint.

58:45 It's been like the opposite of the movie Field of Dreams instead of building and they will come. They had been very much like we come to them with a good idea and they'll help us build it. And I don't know what else you can ask for from a corporate partner beyond that.

59:00 Absolutely, and I guess, john or Foster, should I say, I gotta, I gotta make sure I'd say this right? Because you'll probably be like, Huh, what, who's this directed to? But so Foster, you know, little said something about, like how they helped you with distribution? I mean, that was kind of like been that was kind of like your deal for a while, right? I mean, how how was that like kind of really benefited you? Well, I mean, their network is vast and varied. And so it's a little bit of a challenge to because the relationships that they have inside of their distributors can work a couple of different ways. And that that's a has been a difficult navigation, just understanding it and understanding what's important to each sort of layer in that relationship. And sometimes you have teams that are completely dedicated to promote products. Sometimes you have teams that are full book, sometimes you have both sometimes you have combinations of both and

1:00:00 Think as john said that, that layer and understanding how to drill deep into those things. And as john says, and we've said for years to figure out how to become strategically or financially important to to those reps,

1:00:17 everybody's got that problem. That's not a, I'm not taking on PR No, when I say that, that's been a bit of a challenge. But everybody's everybody's got that issue. Because your average street rep at at a at a distributor, or your average manager or your average manager, even inside of PR know, they have some big brands that they're really responsible for making sure continue to be healthy. And so the challenge for all of the small producers like us is how to live in that world and navigate those waters in a way that produce results. And that when we say strategic or financial, the two ways that that can happen is you use a small, esoteric brand to leverage this kind of get in the door.

1:01:00 Get in front of a buyer or get in front of a buying group that you might otherwise, you know, have trouble getting into with one of the commodity items. Or the other thing is to really start to see some critical mass and sales. I mean, man, I can tell you as somebody who was in sales for a long, long time 100% commission when your brand starts to show up on somebody's commission report, they start to pay attention

1:01:24 and and that's the most powerful thing we can try the real us fantastic so let's go ahead and we'll kind of wrap this up because there's always one thing that if you'd listened back on episode 79 I know I had asked it when we talked to john little but kind of for our newer listeners tell them where the name smooth sampler comes from. A smooth Ambler is a enabled as a game. A horse is typically born with a gate on a gimbal and it is between a walk in a run. And that spoke to us about the area in which we live.

1:02:00 It's people think we're a bunch of maybe a lot of people think maybe we're a bunch of, you know, a bunch of country folks.

1:02:07 And we're certainly not New York City. We know that right? But we, we live in this really wonderful place in West Virginia, this really wonderful community Greenbrier County and Lewisburg, West Virginia. And it's just got a really nice pace of life. It's an anvil. And we like to think that that's the same way we run our business in the same way that our whiskey tasting. So that's where that's where some of them are came from. There we go. Well, john, thank you once again, for coming back on the show. It was good to kind of get this this catch up of what's been going on with you because there's been a lot of changes to really kind of follow along and get those updates and help maybe in a year. We'll do it again. Man, thanks for having us. We really appreciate it. Are you gonna you gonna be at the hometown rising and bourbon and beyond? I guess, or no, I will be there bourbon beyond Sure. We'll get we'll see you there. Thanks. Thanks for what you do. You got it and also want to give a opportunity to plug if people want to come visit you. I mean, of course, you probably pull it up on

1:03:00 Google Maps but kind of give a shout out to how they can learn more about you and where they can find you.

1:03:05 It's just smooth amber calm it's facebook.com slash smooth Ambler and on Instagram at smooth Ambler we're getting ready to turn up all those things and really work on a digital marketing campaign so hopefully people will have less less work to find what we're doing. There you go perfect. So make sure you follow those guys follow us bourbon pursuit Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. If you like what you hear you and be a part of these podcasts you want to help support us, right either write a review or you can do it financially through patreon. com slash bourbon pursuit. If you have any other show suggestions, ideas, people you want to hear from like these great guys, send us an email team at bourbon pursuit calm. So John's thank you once again for joining and we'll see everybody next week.

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