training providers, and public sector partnerships. He currently leads governance development and strategy for over 500 schools across Lancashire at Lancashire County Council, and serves as Chair of Governors at St Andrew's C of E Primary in Ramsbottom.

Before moving into governance, Joshua was Assistant Principal at Co-op Academy Walkden where he met Frank and Stan. Frank was the CEO of the trust that adopted the academy and Stan was one of its trustees.

While at the academy Josh doubled the national average in post-16 apprenticeship progression and was personally described as "exemplary" by Ofsted. He has won multiple national awards for careers education and has acted as a technical advisor to MPs, Ofsted, and the DfE on governance and transformation strategies.

He founded the Governance Assurance Framework because he saw the same pattern across hundreds of schools: governance was the only function in school improvement without a system.

During our chat Josh explains what the Governance Assurance Framework is and how it is organised into 47 governance elements across 11 governance functions and falls into three stages. It is free to all schools and not just to those in Lancashire.

You can find out more here

https://governanceassurance.co.uk

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Joe has a fascinating back story and a varied career in education. He explains all of this at the start of the chat. We were particularly interested in his experiences working at School 21. We explained how well we knew Liz Robinson, a colleague closely linked to School 21 and her work as co-founder of Big Education. Joe explained brilliantly was a fascinating time it was and how it continues to strongly influence his work.

The chat moves on to the regular slot of ‘what’s caught our eye/s this week?’

- Stan drew attention to the RISE advisers and the distances some have been expected to travel to support schools. He explains the fundamental weaknesses in this approach including its inefficiencies. He then wonders why existing school improvement services that exist locally have not been brought into the RISE programme?

- Joe, switches the issue of ‘what’s caught our eye’ to 'what hasn’t caught our eye? He wonders why the school admission notification date for the Primary phase appears to have got such little attention. He points out that for his family, it has been a hot topic on local Whatsapp groups with parents asking for advice and support and wondering what they will do if they don’t get their first choice?

- Frank then considers the appointment of Matthew Purves as the Ofsted Director charged with leading the development of the MAT/SAT inspection Framework. He explains why the appointment may rest heavy for those involved in the Caversham Primary School tragedy and questions why some fresh talent wasn’t sought for such a challenging role?

It’s a friendly, supportive, and we hope interesting chat. Joe was a great guest.

Enjoy

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Alan is a recently retired Executive Headteacher of Endeavour Federation, which provides specialist SEMH (Social, Emotional, and Mental Health) provision in Manchester. They are co-authors of the book 'Educating Everyone: An Introduction to Relational Inclusion in Schools'

This week's chat about education and leadership includes the following issues:

1. Should Martin's Law, when introduced in 2027, be a shared responsibility between the Headteacher/CEO and the Governing Body /Trust Board?

2. An FOI to the DfE reveals what they view a successful school to be. It's a disconcerting and deeply troubling picture.

3. The White Paper may be a signal of a step forward, but the Inclusion Hubs appear to be poorly thought through.

4. Can we have a commitment to inclusion when we still expect parents/carers to buy school uniform that is so expensive?

An engaging, lively and respectful chat between colleagues feeling comfortable with each other.

Enjoy.

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This SPOTLIGHT delves into a sector that is poorly understood by many but is a crucial element in supporting many children and young people with a diverse range of needs. What follows is a fascinating discussion.

Enjoy, and we hope learn more about their newly formed alliance, their upcoming conference and their ambition for the future.

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This chat considers the financial effectiveness of some high-profile trusts that have encountered financial challenges in recent weeks. Stan and Cathal let rip with Frank acting more like a BBC journalist. We should add that many trusts are well-led and financially secure, but there are still some lessons to learn from recent issues and problems. Frank closes the chat with reference to a recently published research paper into 'stuck' schools, a phrase he personally dislikes. TURNING AROUND ‘STUCK’ SCHOOLS IN ENGLAND: EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP IN EXTREMELY CHALLENGING CIRCUMSTANCES by Bernadette Munoz and Melanie Ehren challenges the idea that support from afar is unlikely to be effective. A message perhaps for the RISE programme.

Enjoy.

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Rebecca explains how her life has changed in some respects since our last chat and how she is engaging in so many more things. These include;

- creating a podcast that focuses on poetry called 'The Ditty Bag' https://rebeccaleek.substack.com/podcast

- learning to play the accordian, and;

- performing it in a band. She continues to be involved in the Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association.

This week's chat starts with Stan explaining why Martin's Law continues to be an issue, which he feels isn't getting sufficient attention. He draws on some interesting examples of how schools have tried to be innovative in addressing possible risks to pupil and staff safety. Rebecca makes clear that risk assessment and mitigation are proactive and positive measures.

Rebecca then considers the implications for SEND within the recent White Paper. She is concerned about the sense of universality that embraces the report and the difficulties in managing parent and carer expectations moving forward. We also discuss how effective a national training programme for SEND will be and the implication it conveys, that schools are not effective in managing the issues.

Frank completes the discussion by considering what he learned from 4 months of interim CEO work for a small trust in Greater Manchester.

An interesting and broad ranging discussion. Sorry, it went over the 35 minutes limit, but we felt it was worthwhile. We hope you agree.

The various links Rebecca referenced in the chat can be found below

www.rebeccaleek.com

Podcast: The Ditty Bag

Author: The School Ready Governor - Bloomsbury

Exec. Director: Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association

Find Rebecca on X and Instagram

And a new project she is crowdfunding for: 'Elizabeth Fry Stops By'

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/elizabeth-fry-stops-by

Enjoy

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What followed was much more than just a chat about those specific staff roles, but more an explanation as to what effective teaching looks like, what skills are necessary and how senior leaders should perhaps do more to support. Mel draws on her many years of teaching, but also a period when she undertook supply cover in another secondary school in North Manchester and how she needed to draw on her experience to have a positive impact.

We discover the role that Andy played in encouraging Mel to sit down and write the book in collaboration with him. The section of the chat at 20 mins where Mel explains her teaching approach is well worth ten minutes of every person who leads a class. At under £10 for a copy of the book, it is something every school should have a copy of.

Sit back and enjoy the chat. It's a belter.

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This recording is slightly different because we reflect on the chats and how they developed, we than have Paul discussing an article he had published earlier that day where he considers the outcomes of the first batch of Ofsted inspections and then it closes with Frank returning to Chat No. 102 where his brother, a former HMI with Estyn shares what he would put in Room 101.

A lovely discussion and a suitable one for a chat that is always meant to be kind and reflective.

Enjoy.

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This recording is slightly different because we reflect on the chats and how they developed, we than have Paul discussing an article he had published earlier that day where he considers the outcomes of the first batch of Ofsted inspections and then it closes with Frank returning to Chat No. 102 where his brother, a former HMI with Estyn shares what he would put in Room 101.

A lovely discussion and a suitable one for a chat that is always meant to be kind and reflective.

Enjoy.

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Richard provides an assured and considered approach when discussing the impact of strong post-16 provision in an area. We consider how highly effective Colleges lift ambition and provide access to further education and the workplace. He explains how his career was largely about walking a particular path in a particular way and taking opportunities as they arise.

Stan considers the impact of Sir Ken Robinson on his thinking and how his work, including the various keynotes that have been recorded, have been an inspiration with an emphasis on creativity. Richard then draws attention to an 18th Century Catholic guidance book he saved from a bonfire and how the instructions largely remain relevant today. Frank then reflects on a recent discussion with some trade union and professional association leaders, where he was unguarded and frustrated. He also draws attention to the introduction of the book Taking Back Control 3 by Paul Garvey. The introduction was written by Edmund Barnet-Ward, a governor at Caversham Primary School. It is a tour de force and worth reading.

We hope you enjoy the chat.

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During the discussion Mel explains how some existing policy positions and historical approaches hinder progress in ensuring greater equity and inclusion. He is at pains to argue that context matters because social factors, political factors and cultural factors impinge on potential improvement. He draws on some recent work where effective cooperation and collaboration have encouraged more schools to share their knowledge and approaches. He then ponders why less progress in tackling issues beyond the school gate have not been tackled. He closes the chat with optimism as he recalls recent progress in Dundee and the Merseyside Region.

Mel is always good value. He's engaging and realistic. We hope the chat is helpful and don't forget his most recent book "Reforming Education Systems for Inclusion and Equity' is available at all good bookshops, including online.

Enjoy

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The chat begins with Laura explaining her career journey before we break with tradition and ask her, 'What has caught her eye this week?' She explains the optimism she felt when the government published its long-awaited violence against women and girls (VAWG) strategy on 18th December 2025, This followed a clear manifesto commitment to halve this abuse within a decade. Laura explained how the timing of the release of the strategy was unfortunate, being so close to the Christmas break. She is expecting schools to begin to consider any necessary changes in their approach shortly. She was shocked, however with the way the media and social media responded and immediately took a polarising viewpoint.

Stan considers the difficulty older citizens face in using a largely digital system within the NHS. Frank celebrates the amazing evening he watching 'Singing in the Rain' at the Royal Exchange Theatre as well as the good news that northern railways are likely to improve and places are going to be better connected. It is going to be a long wait, but he hopes schools will begin to consider the employment opportunities and help deliver the improvements.

A great chat. Enjoy

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The conversation considers some of the practical issues that can support better wellbeing for staff, but this then leans into how teaching staff can support their pupils better in managing their own physical and emotional wellbeing. Adrian draws on international comparisons and considers the vast array of research on the topic of well-being in making a case for it to be more prominent in judging how effectively schools are led.

Adrian draws attention to a book he is currently reading called 'Poor' by Katriona O'Sullivan. He explains how the author draws on her struggles as a child and how they continue to impact her through adult life. Frank then recalls the work of Kerry Hudson called 'Lowborn' that follows a similar vein. These act as a timely reminder of the reality of deep poverty.

A brilliant chat. Adrian has agreed to return to the chat, and we are very keen to make this happen.

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Stan gets things moving by considering 'survivor bias'. He reflects on the choices made by politicians and education leaders who are heavily influenced by their own education experiences. These are usually viewed as successful. Stan makes the point that more attention needs to be given to those failed by the system to better understand what needs to be changed to help them succeed, therefore avoiding inherent 'survivor bias.

Kathy then reflects on the proposal to introduce MAT inspections. She's in favour but highlights the dangers and pitfalls in the proposal. She is concerned how a value for money judgement would be reached and how the associated inspection Framework would be developed. Frank explains how MAT inspections could be used to reduce the impact and number of school inspections.

Frank then considers a quote he saw from Neil Jurd, author of The Leadership Book and former guest on the Frank and Stan Chat. We discuss the impact of influencers and Frank wonders whether he is such a person. Kathy offers insight into the negativity of such individuals. The quote is copied here

'I am sometimes asked to account for the success of influential people whose leadership style is so different from the inclusive and positive leadership style that I advocate. The usual examples are self-serving politicians whose style is divisive and egotistical, or further along the same scale, dictators, and despots. But of course, there are self-centred, narcissistic, and egotistic people thriving in senior positions in all walks of life. You may know some, and their energy and impact are likely to be negative.

These people inhabit senior positions, but their intrinsic motivation is usually self-centred; they lead in order to serve their own purposes. For their own recognition and wealth, rather than for any greater good. In my experience, these people do not lead in the truest sense of the word. I call this 'false leadership'; it is presented as leadership, and it looks like leadership from a distance, but it lacks the meaning, substance and positivity of the real thing.'

There is so much more covered in the chat but you will have to watch or listen to find the gems.

Enjoy.

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Stan considers the Reform Party's proposals to utilise the spaces available in rarely used churches to help address the SEND crisis. He believes it is a crazy and ill-considered idea. Jan then reflects on the well-publicised Safeguarding report on the approaches to behaviour management at Mossbourne MVP in London. We all consider the response from the government's behaviour tsar over the issue and how the report author appears to have successfully held a secure handle on the issues. Frank then reflects on an article he recently published by Forum Strategy that focuses on the importance of the community.

It's a wide-ranging discussion. We hope you enjoy it. We are back in early 2026. Happy festive greetings from us both.

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Some parts of the chat are worthy of sharing with students thinking of apprenticeships as well as emphasising the way she embraces new challenges. It is ok to feel nervous.

Stan considers the learning he gained from a conference he attended the day before on workplace psychology and Frank draws attention to Alex, a follower of the chat who shared their Spotify Wrapped outcomes which saw over 450 minutes listening to our chat in the past year. Amazing. We would love to have this colleague along as a guest.

With just two more Frank and Stan Chats before the Christmas break we have begun reflecting on some of the many highlights this year. We will share these in the two remaining editions.

Thank you for your support.

Enjoy!

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Henry has a clearly defined education philosophy, and it is refreshing to hear a colleague explain so cogently what many educators believe in the UK but feel unable to express.

Stan kicks off by explaining how shocked he was to find how AI can manipulate images for sexual gratification. The chat considers whether banning things helps. Henry then explains how character education, a young person's wellbeing and opportunities for social beneficial activities increasingly play an important part in Colombian education. Frank then considers how two words can change the responses to attendance data.

It's a belting chat. Henry has agreed to return to our chat. We can't wait.

Enjoy

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Stan gets things moving by considering the changes that will need to be made by schools to accommodate the demands of Martin's Law. Mark then reflects on the city of Manchester, its vibrancy, its welcome and the way it has transformed into an economic success story. Frank then considers the place of 'carousels' in the school curriculum. This is where Mark really comes to the fore.

Enjoy and share.

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Stan considers the likely impact of the government setting an expected national standard of 75% for children to reach 'a good level of development' in Early Years. He references Goodhart's law, which states, "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". Carolyn then explains what changes and proposed laws, currently being progressed through Parliament, will have a significant impact on Keeping Children Safe. She also unpicks skilfully Ofsted's weaknesses in how safeguarding is inspected. Frank then considers the research published by the University of Manchester in October 2025, 'Lost learning: Prevalence, inequalities and outcomes of internal exclusion in mainstream secondary schools' by Emma Thornton, Qiqi Cheng, Ola Demkowicz and Neil Humphrey, which examines the reasons for isolation, who are more often given it and its impact on those students and those who are not. The results are surprising and challenging.

You would expect us to say how good the chat is, but I suspect there is quite a lot in this discussion which would be of interest to many in schools, parents/carers and education leaders in general.

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We consider the development of new approaches to assessment and the future role of AI. We also revisit the amazing work Rosie led on in creating a Learner Profile that provides a mechanism for a fuller range of skills, expertise, experiences, and interests to be recorded.

https://rethinkingassessment.com/learner-profile/

We then shift on to her new role and consider some of the challenges in progressing a digital shift at individual schools.

A great chat. Hope you enjoy it.

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Stan gets things rolling by questioning the central costs of trusts compared to those of the local authorities in the past. Chris is well-informed on such matters and explains that comparisons are tricky because the actual personal salaries are not made public. Frank considers the growth of specialist subject advisers on permanent contracts in central teams and wonders the merits of this approach.

Chris then reflects on the encouraging news that more political parties including the government, want to strengthen the public perception of vocational pathways. Chris prefers to use the word 'professional' rather than 'vocational'. We then consider how important it is to view this issue across all phases of education, rather than it being seen as a Post-16 issue. Stan and Frank then gain valuable insights into the number of L2 and L3 courses available and the proportion that are 'vocational'.

Frank closes the chat by reflecting on a paper he wrote this week about the School Curriculum Award and how it resonated with Chris' weekly newsletter that covered the curriculum and accountability developments in Estonia.

Really interesting stuff, and makes clear to both Stan and Frank how fortunate they are to have such brilliant guests each week. It is some of the best professional development they experience and it's free!!!

Enjoy.

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Stan kicks off by considering the new role of the nominee being introduced by Ofsted as part of their attempt to de-escalate the tension felt during their inspections. Inevitably, Stan finds a gaping hole in their thinking.

Dave then considers the best practice guidance being produced by the DfE to assist in the development of specialist special education needs provision. He believes there is a lot of good intention but a lack of expertise and funding to enable it to work well in all places. We also consider how particular schools and trusts may not be willing to share their expertise too much due to the risk it presents in losing their staff.

Frank then reflects on the role of the Lay Inspector on the early versions of an Ofsted Framework and how they were meant to bring a non-education perspective on the evidence gathering. He believes there is value for school self evaluation in utilising a non-educationalist to consider how smoothly a school is working.

There is a lot of chat about Frank's unwillingness to pay his way, which is grossly exaggerated but it is an enjoyable 30 or so minutes. We hope it has some uplift and benefit for your work.

Enjoy

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Stan considers the importance of comparing schools by taking into account their context, Chelsea then gives more details on the government's Digital Taskforce before Frank reflects on the high quality care he received at Stepping Hill Hospital this week and why are 30% of secondary headteachers leaving their posts within three years. It isn't quite as easy to explain.

Enjoy!

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Stan gets things rolling by reflecting on the Good Hearts Law which ostensibly is “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” In other words, when we set one specific goal, people will tend to push towards that objective regardless of the consequences. This leads to problems when they neglect other equally important aspects of a situation.

Ian then reflects on how he used self evaluation as a tool for improvement and why he believes it remains a key element of improvement. He also notes how Ofsted's new Framework references it without explaining its importance, particularly during the initial call with inspectors.

Frank finishes the chat by considering the importance of community and why trust/school leaders need to step up to play a leading role in the elements that can affect children and young people's learning. He references an amazing conference he attended last week organised by Forum Strategy.

It's a fascinating chat, or at least it was for the two regular gents.

Enjoy!

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The chat does not disappoint as Paul explains how the Chamber works to support local businesses in the Liverpool City Region by providing a strong networking community, advocating for their interests with government bodies, offering business support services like international trade assistance and skills development, and promoting inward investment to foster economic growth and create jobs. The Chamber understands its wider role in ensuring local people gain the knowledge, skills and attitudes to enter employment as well as to have an enjoyable and fulfilling life.

Paul was at Everton FC's new stadium yesterday, celebrating 175 years of the Chamber in the city with the Princess Royal. He explains how the Chamber has evolved and is continuing to play a crucial role in regenerating the city. He has some interesting insights into the role of entrepreneurship and how those who become successful without formal qualifications are important but they are the exception rather than the rule.

It's a fascinating chat. We are convinced many will gain a deeper understanding of the importance of effective business and education engagement for citizens of all ages.

He's agreed to come back in 2026.

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We are privileged to be joined by Dennis Sherwood for this edition. Dennis was our first SPOTLIGHT guest in July 2023. It was one of the most interesting yet deeply worrying editions because he explained how and when he started to lose confidence in the work of OFQUAL. Look it up.

Dennis explains how he has felt while students have recently received their external national examination results and why he feels so disappointed with OFQUAL especially the complaint system. Stan then considers the calculation that by the not so new Behaviour Tzar that the Behaviour crisis 'means every pupil loses 45 days of learning a year'. Frank then considers whether the focus on Islamist terrorism is the right one for the Prevent programme and for the recent Ofsted training when the DfE's own data suggests something rather different.

Topical and challenging. Hope you enjoy it.

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Stan reflects on the television series "House' which stars Hugh Laurie and considers whether the diagnostic approach he uses in his imaginary role might be useful for resolving some engrained education issues. Frank then considers the differences he has noticed in how education in Finland is offered, how it creates a high skilled and highly valued profession for the most able and talented. Lisa reflects on the changing nature of the support she is offering and how it is evenly split between those who are currently experiencing high levels of distress as opposed to those who want to identify an approach that can help them cope better with challenges when they emerge.

It's a cracking chat and emphasises once again how fortunate we are to have such wonderful guests who offer some of the best free professional development for us and we hope for the viewers and listeners.

We will be recording three SPOTLIGHT editions of our chat in the next few weeks covering Tutoring, Human Resources and the accuracy of our examination system (or not) and will release these during August and early September. We are back on the weekly chat for 2025-2026 on 10th September.

Best wishes

Frank and Stan

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Stan starts proceedings by reflecting on some Y6 pupils he saw locally wearing their 'Leavers 2025' sweatshirts and wondered whether this was signalling too early that the end of their Primary phase of education was now over. We consider how best to use the time between the end of the SATs period and the close of the academic year and whether the examinations are simply unacceptable in terms of providing a balanced education experience.

John then reflects on the challenges the Labour government has faced and wonders whether Sir Simon Case was correct when he recently identfied a lack of clarity on the communication front. With an important shift in the welfare reforms this week John wonders whether there is sufficient clarity on what the education reforms are and whether there has been sufficient listening to those delivering the service. Having a large parliamentary majority is clearly not enough to win all arguments.

Frank then considers an interesting report from EPI this week called 'Post 16 study programmes – understanding student choices and aspirations'. The report considers the pathways taken by students who were subject to Centre Assessed Grades (CAGs) during Covid. They recommend that 'GCSE English and maths results below grade 4 should only restrict access to level 3 courses where key elements of students’ main study programme are dependent on proficiency to this level' and that many students wanted flexibility in the structure and choices of courses. This presents challenges for the T Level moving forward.

The chat ends with us all reflecting on the turmoil at Ofsted and whether there is effective communication from senior managers. All three of us had worked with a former HMCI who was willing to front-up and was rooted in inspection methodology. We felt that this experience and focus might be the missing ingredient.

Enjoy!

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Frank worked closely with Rebecca when she was a principal at one of the Coop Trust academies, where he witnessed her amazing leadership skills in turning around a school, that was fairly dysfunctional, into an amazing place for young people to learn and for amazing staff to teach.

The chat starts with Stan considering how best to keep experienced staff invigorated and enthused about their job. He compares how this is tackled in education compared to football. He wonders whether secondments are the answer. Rebecca explains how she undertakes this challenge in her own setting and then considers the challenges that come from outside of the role and how this affects different staff in different ways.

Rebecca then reflects on an article last Sunday in a newspaper which explained how a Boarding school was reverting to giving young boarders access to a landline rather than provide free access to their smart phones. We then consider how effective any approaches that ban use during the school day (as in nearly all schools) where control of their use is unfettered in some households.

Frank then considers the challenges that are looming for school leaders in a lack of timeliness from the government. He reflects on the Covid period when guidance from the DfE usually arrived at 6pm on a Friday and then had to be considered and then shared by school leaders with staff in good time for the following week. With delays to the publication of the KCSIE guidance, delays to Ofsted Framework proposals and uncertainty over the timing of the Francis Curriculum Review it is going to be a very challenging autumn term. He notes that Leicestershire schools start their summer break in two week's time!

It's a relaxed and enjoyable chat for us. We hope it is useful and interesting for the viewers/listeners.

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Stan considers his wonderful holiday last week which gave him time to reflect on leadership in sport. He mourns the loss of enigmatic leaders and considers how some current managers often lack the clarity of thought and individual approach. Pie then considers a wonderful visit he made to a Primary school in Handsworth where under fresh leadership the school has been transformed. He explains how attention to detail and a consistent personal approach has led to a dramatic improvement in children's experiences and outcomes. Frank closes the chat by considering how important key teachers were in his time at school and how one in particular, Dave Milne, made history relevant, fun and interesting. As it was World Teacher Day it seemed an appropriate way to reflect on the amazing teachers we have been fortunate to work with and observe.

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The chat reflects on the importance of drawing on multiple evidence and data sources to ensure a clear and broad picture is gained of issues children, young people, parents/carers and staff experience. Nic calls this a kaleidoscopic picture. We also discover how some schools in the USA are currently having to traverse the new administration's view on diversity and inclusion and we finish off with consideration of some data analysis undertaken by FFT regarding how many pupils have been affected in Private schools by the government's change on VAT.

Hope you enjoy it. We did!

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Kevin explains how his life was transformed and given purpose when the Northern Ballet Theatre Company provided a dance residence at the primary school he was attending. His obvious talent was seen immediately and fostered through the Trafford Dance Group, headed by the amazing Linda Coles. He created Company Chameleon in 2006 and it has grown from strength to strength. he's soon to accompany the dance company on a trip to Japan as part of the UK deputation for the World Expo. He is an inspiration.

But his life has been challenging especially when he faced serious mental health issues. The chat covers these and considers how important an active and vibrant arts curriculum is for all pupils and why this is sadly lacking in some schools. Stan reflects on a report published this week that makes clear how serious the drop in engagement is for students when they begin their secondary phase experience. We all offer some reasons for this. sadly, none of us were surprised by the findings.

Kevin then reflects on the many years he has engaged with young people at 42nd Street, a charity offering mental health support to young people aged 16-25 years. Yesterday was his final session with the young people. Their response and gratitude for his work were very moving. Kevin also considers the impact of free access to education that exists in Scotland and why this is a powerful force for economic and personal development.

Frank closes the chat with a reflection on the latest Sutton trust report that considers where social mobility is most successful. There appears to be a clear link between economic opportunities and the chances of achieving strong improvement in social mobility. He considers the lack of funding for FE and adult education and why the Early Years funding is important in that it supports parents/carers as well as the children.

It's a belting chat. We are incredibly proud to be able to chat for around 50 minutes with such inspiring guests. Please share the video with others. The messages about the arts, curriculum access and mental health are apposite.

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Frank then reflects on the recent chats with Rebecca Hanson and Aelwyn Pugh and explains why they were so impactful. The chat then considers CEO salaries and the redundancies one high profile MAT is facing and why it feels wrong when senior leaders earn so much.

We hope you enjoy it.

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- the role of Facebook in deciding on which school to select

- the dangers of the current Ofsted inspection proposals

- the role of the RISE teams and they intersect with existing school improvement programmes and strategies

- the lack of a clear vision for education, and

- balancing the budget.

The chat ends on a more positive note with better news on teacher recruitment and the possible push for more Drama teachers which may indicate a shift in focus coming through the Francis Curriculum Review.

A great way to start the summer series of chats. Enjoy.

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Rebecca works as a supply maths teacher in a number of inner city schools in the north of England. She also provides maths tuition for children who are struggling with maths and support for parents who are home educating. She previously spent years providing professional development for primary teachers and teaching assistants, before free sharing professional development and advice for teachers through her RebeccaTheMathsLady YouTube channel. She is also an experienced conference speaker, facilitator and workshop leader and has substantial experience in national-level education policy development and the press and live mainstream media.

The chat covers Rebecca's recent experience of teaching in socially diadvantaged communities and why she feels too many students find mathematics irrelevant and uninteresting. She is clear who is to blame.

It's a spiky chat but one many should watch/listen to.

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The chat enables the four colleagues to reflect on how their approaches to behaviour management, inclusion and relationships have changed over time and how they see the challenges now being faced by many children, young people, their families and those who teach.

A fascinating and highly topical chat that also includes a generous 30% book discount using the code FRANKSTAN30 if bought through the Routledge website.

Enjoy.

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1. The recent documentary on the failings within Thames Water and what the lessons are for leadership in education and elsewhere

2. The Interim Francis Curriculum Review Report

The chat meanders a little but it is punchy and direct in terms of our views.

Also, Frank ends by plugging The Alternative Big Consultation survey he is running wioth Prof Colin Richards. The link is at the end of the chat, if you are on video. If you are downloading the chat as a podcast you can find the link at www.thealternativebiglisten.co.uk. It only takes 5 minutes

Enjoy

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The chat includes Stan drawing attention to a mechanical device his father created that includes a 'governor' which he explains is a speed limiter or controller. Rebecca reveals that she intended to mention this in her book but decided to withdraw it before publication. Stan is experiencing the joy of trying to potty train his 2 year old grandson and considers the latest report that identifies what children are expected to be able to do before they start school. He makes the case for a degree of understanding on such matters.

Rebecca then considers how she is managing supporting her father who is in a care home. She references the James Taylor song 'The Secret of Life' which includes the lyric 'the secret of life is enjoying the passage of time'. Frank is also an avid James Taylor fan so the conversation considers how he is abler to write uplifting lyrics when he was facing significant personal challenges. Rebecca also draws in the importance of spiritual development for children and young people.

Finally, Frank remembers his brother Barry, who passed away nearly a year ago. He was a guest on the FRank and Stan Chat on two occasions and was keen to see teachers grabbing back more of the national assessment process.

It's a positive and fascinating chat. We've already booked Rebecca again for a second chat. Still so much ground to cover.

Enjoy.

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Ross was our guest last year and proved very popular. His Teacher Toolkit website has over 250k visits each month with nearly 20 million visits to the website since it launched in 2007. He has become particularly interested in neurological conditions and during this chat he explains hopw the knowledge he has gained has affected how he views pupils with ADHD. He also discusses the strengths and weaknesses of Ofsted's Parentview survey and how his recent visits to schools is influencing his work. He is left with a deep respect and gratitude for the work of many in the teaching profession.

Stan considers the role of play and whether it is reasonable to expect school to be fun? He prefers it to be enjoyable...most of the time. Frank then summarises his involvement in the Alternative Big Consultation which launched earlier in the week and how he hopes it leads to a better form of inspection.

Enjoy!

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This week we announce that our little video cast/podcast won an award as the most popular education podcast in......wait for it.....OTTAWA! Who would have thought five years ago when these chats started that it would lead to this.

Our chat kicks off with Stan considering the positive and possible negative impact of machine learning on how children learn. Frank makes clear that he is experiencing this sort of learning through his grandchildren and there are some clear benefits but some really significant problems. We then move on to a certain high profile headteacher who met the Secretary of State this week. And then we close by reflecting on the latest SPOTLIGHT edition of our chat with Dr james Mannion that is due to be published on Monday.

Hope you enjoy the return of the two of us.

Frank and Stan

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Aelwyn Pugh Edition 187

Emma Ainsworth Edition 195

Dr Vic Carr Edition 207

Neil Sheldon Edition 184

Lisa Lea Weston Edition 176

Have a happy Christmas and a great New Year. We are back on 10th January with guests already lined up into the second half of 2025.

Best wishes

Frank and Stan

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This chat opens with Stan again reflecting on how the lack of a clear national education strategy is preventing many who want to drive change and improvement from engaging in a meaningful way. Vic explains how she is managing this period of uncertainty and is trying to hold back from a feeling of disappointment, through having a belief that things will improve eventually. She considers the points made by Sam Freedman in his recent book 'Failed State' that explain the inner workings of the previous government wanting a catchy news item for the weekend newspapers. Frank then gets around his 'no Ofsted pledge' by reading a recent Linkedin article from Adrian Gray on the 'non-event' that was the annual Ofsted report. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-gray-23642442/

Another amazing chat with a committed school leader. We are the lucky colleagues who have the privilege to chat with so many brilliant people involved in education. Enjoy.

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The chat starts by discussing how Emma has felt moving away from a high-profile role and how the NGA successfully managed the transition to the new CEO. We discuss the changes and developments in governance structures and how they need to continue to move with the times and the demands on the sector.

Stan raises concerns about the Australian government's plans to ban Under 16s from using some (not all) social media platforms. he has concerns on how this will be policed. Emma then reflects on the recent COP in Baku and how it didn't really consider the education angle. This was in stark contrast to the Glasgow COP event. We then consider whether sustainability ought to be a Report Card indicator.

Frank completes the chat by reflecting on a recent meeting he had with two former colleagues who have stepped away from their trust roles. He considers their honesty, sensitivity, professionalism and kindness. Major qualities, he believes in a sector concerned with children and young people's development.

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Stan considers the lack of an education strategy at the moment and its impact on a range of issues. Owen then reflects on the increase in suspensions and exclusions and the possible reasons for this. Frank then points to a recent evaluation of the Behaviour Hub initiative that suggested pupils felt that standards of behaviour had deteriorated slightly whereas staff thought it had improved slightly.

It's a great chat and ventures into new territory for the Frank and Stan Chat.

Before we reach the closing credits Frank promotes the work of Russell Harvey, the Resilience Coach, who has been a guest on the chat many times. Russell has taken a short break but is now back and available for work. His details are russell@theresiliencecoach.co.uk.

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The chat starts with Stan considering the reliability of Ofsted subject reviews which have been heavily criticised this week for the way research evidence appears to have been manipulated to offer a preferred view on pedagogy., Carolyn then explains the significant changes to the VAT arrangements for Independent Special Schools, many of which are not-for-profit organisations and support some of the most vulnerable young people. She then considers the many changes to safeguarding arrangements that are going to be introduced for Early Years settings next year. Frank then reflects on a chat he had with a prominent CEO of a charity where it became clear that more needed to be done to support the literacy and numeracy skills of adults.

It's an enjoyable chat. We have already booked Carolyn for this time next year for another chat.

Enjoy!

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We reached out to Ross and he was keen to chat about his work, why he decided to move from teaching into blogging, writing books and offering keynotes to schools around the world.

Our chat covers a lot of ground but focuses on being an entrepreneur, taking the plunge away from a settled career into an unknown future, what shapes his current thinking and how he sees teaching in the future.

It's a friendly, relaxed and informed chat and we hope you enjoy it.

www.teachertoolkit.co.uk

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It's been a treat having weekly chats with a host of amazing guests. The Frank and Stan Chat is not about viewing or listening figures. It is about the relaxed nature of the chat. Invariably our guests tell us they enjoy the experience and many want to come back for a return visit.

We have guests lined up into the middle of 2025 but are still keen to hear from colleagues who may bring a different or fresh insight. You can contact Frank and Stan Chat by commenting on the most recent chat. We will then reach out.

A big thank you to our supporters and followers, our guests, Kendra Allen and Susan Breckell for standing in for Stan when he's been away and to Rick Dawson and Paul Johnson who produced two amazing theme tunes.

Best wishes

Frank and Stan

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As we chat about recent events Stan considers the wisdom of a Trust CEO considering whether teaching staff should abandon the 1265 contractual hours they are contracted to work. We all add that most teachers we know far exceed those hours at the moment. Chelsea reflects positively on the PM's comments about the power and benefit of the creative arts. She welcomes any move that extends opportunities for pupils. Finally, Frank is heartened by the heavy emphasis placed on digital skills in the recently published Skills England paper. Stan enquires whether InnovateHer would be open to working with Primary aged pupils. They would but, not just yet.

It's a great chat. We will definitely invite Chelsea back to provide an update on InnovateHer and whether the renewed commitment to the creative arts has been maintained.

Enjoy.

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Stan reflected on some of the leadership issues that have appeared within the new government and whether they could or should have been avoided. We shifted these issues into school scenarios where it is relatively easy to be conflicted through receiving a small gift or a favour. Caroline then praises the efforts of a local business that supplied fans of Morecambe FC ear defenders and spinning widgets for those that might be anxious about the noise and hustle and bustle during the game. Frank then reflects on a wonderful session provided by Everton Nursery at a major Liverpool Education conference today. The emphasis was on the meaning of education and it aligned so neatly with many of our videocast and podcast chats. An uplifting and positive experience.

Highly enjoyable chatting with Caroline and we hope you gain some important insights and areas to reflect upon to improve your teaching and leadership. If that's the case (or not) then please let us know.

Until next week when we are joined by Chelsea Slater, CEO and joint Founder of InnovateHer.

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led the Greater Manchester Challenge a three-year project that involved a partnership between national government, ten local authorities, 1,150 schools and many other stakeholders, and had a government investment of around £50 million. He went on to lead Schools Challenge Cymru, the Welsh Government’s multi-million pound flagship programme to accelerate the rate of improvement across the country’s schools. He is currently steering an inclusive cross schools project for the city of Dundee.

Mel has a new book out called 'Developing Inclusive Schools' and this dominates, in a pleasant way, the discussion. We dropped the usual 'what's caught your eye this week?' slot due to the genuine interest in Mel's contribution to the discussion. It is a wide ranging chat but offers hope for a better future if local, regional and national leaders are willing to grasp the nettle.

Sit back and enjoy what Mel has to say. It will probably change your view on SEND, behaviour, attendance, culture and collaboration.

Enjoy.

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The chat considers how Neil's military training and experience influenced his approach to leadership. He gives some clear, practical examples with the discussion moving on to trust and humility as key themes. Stan then considers what's caught his eyes this week and focuses on an MA dissertation he received for comment from Lucy Truman, a regular guest on the Frank and Stan Chat. He reflects on how the period of COVID encouraged local authority staff to get on with decision making without having to consult. He wonders whether consultation is currently getting in the way of decision making. Neil then reflects on the impact of AI on essay writing and how it weakens the writing style and reduces individuality. Frank then ponders over the surprising news that the DWP had harvested some pupil data from the DfE to check on benefit fraud. This arrangement was not widely known. We all then considered what other data is being shared on citizens.

A varied and interesting chat. Hope you enjoy it.

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The chat begins with the gents considering the value of Ofsted's Big Listen. Adrian and Frank reflect on previous surveys of views from Ofsted and note that the closed nature of the questions leads to fairly predictable responses. Also, the survey doesn't cover a number of important issues such as whether a single word grade should continue, whether more emphasis should be placed on school self evaluation and whether it is right to excluded data provided by the school.

Stan reflects on the recent IFS report on Sure Start Centres, Adrian considers the recent Ofsted report on Religious Education and Frank shares some views on how work experience opportunities are changing.

An interesting and varied chat. We hope you enjoy it.

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Following the normal introductions Frank focuses on Vic's military training and the leadership development she has experienced through this work. This is just up Stan's street so the insight and examples provided by them both provide a powerful example of why honesty, integrity, consistency and consideration and love are at the heart of effective leadership.

The clarity of thinking and the way Vic draws in examples from her varied career make the chat compelling. There is just enough time to consider the rather bizarre idea the government has come up with recently which is to encourage scouts to become teachers.

It is a belting chat and we recommend colleagues sit back and listen to Vic explain her leadership philosophy. We are amazed that such wonderful guests are willing to give us their time. Frank and Stan, we hope, our watchers, listeners and followers are the real beneficiaries.

Enjoy

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mark.innes@manchester.ac.uk

Elizabeth.Gregory@manchester.ac.uk

Lia.Murtagh@manchester.ac.uk

Enjoy.

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Stan kicks off by questioning the view that was shared today in the press that young people should not have a mobile phone until they are 16. Sarah then ponders on the gaping holes in the government's teacher recruitment targets and Frank shares some research he's undertaken analysing the proportion of students who have progressed to graduate or L3+ qualifications across many Northern towns and cities. The figures are not what you would expect.

It's a great chat. We enjoyed it immensely and we hope you do as well.

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Headrest explain why they exist on their website

https://www.headrestuk.co.uk

'Never before has the job of running a school been so challenging, not just for headteachers, but also for CEOs, governors and trustees. As a system-led profession, we need to come together and offer a much-needed mutual support service, acting almost as a safety device for headteachers. Most importantly, in order for it to be available and accessible to everyone, it needs to be free. This is where Headrest comes in.

We know that in many schools, heads are very well supported, be it in a MAT, federation, cluster or LA. But there are too many out there who are not so lucky, new headteachers especially, who are not able to access the traditional suite of face-to-face induction support as a result of the lockdown restrictions. It must be especially tough for them, not knowing what 'normal' looks like.

Add into the mix the safeguarding concerns thrown up by the pandemic, the regularly changing and often inappropriate guidance from the DfE, the misinformation and coordinated onslaught on the profession from certain quarters of the media, and the desperation to get things as good as they can be for the young people they serve, the job can feel un-doable.'

The chat covers a wide range of issues relating to the recently published Headrest annual report. It explains how Headrest offers support and how speedily they try to respond. The discussion covers how things have changed since the previous report and identifies they key stressors that are impacting negatively on those seeking help and support.

It is one of the most important Frank and Stan Chats of the year. Watch and listen to the situation experienced by senior leaders who make contact with Headrest. Sadly, things have not improved since the previous report, in fact, it appears to have got worse.

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In the 'What's caught your eye this week?' section Stan considers the problems highlighted in a tv documentary about the poor state of some school buildings. Chris considers the way anxiety can creep into the lives of young people while Sam reflects on the work of UA92. Frank completes the discussion by drawing attention to the request made by the Northern Powerhouse Partnership to the Chancellor to fund a reformed Pupil Premium allocation. It's a great chat.

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Stan kicks off by considering the awful events surrounding the Post Office and its Horizon system. He ponders on the lack of governance, oversight, ethical leadership and paltry legal advice. Ronda then reflects on the lack of coverage of events at The Hague this week where South Africa brought a case of genocide for the actions of Israel in Gaza. Frank then wonders how keen youth groups really are in wanting to hear the voices of young people. This was brought about by a troubling blog written by Ishaa Asim, a young activist who has twice been a guest on Frank and Stan Chat.

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1. Ruth Perry

2. Child Poverty levels in the UK

3. Recruitment and retention of teachers and leaders

4. Why local support is often the most effective

It is an interesting and at times troubling chat. We are fortunate to have guests like Sameena joining us. We will try to secure a date for her to return in 2024.

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Point of correction. In the video Meena suggests HMCI is a Civil Servant. This is correct but she is appointed by the King she can only be dismissed by him.

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The discussion focuses on Andy's most recently published book 'Leadership from the Middle' which looks at the topic from many different angles and includes fascinating perspectives on autonomy and 'top down' approaches. Andy, also considers the main themes from his soon to be published collaboration with longtime friend Dennis Shirley called 'The Age of Identity'.

It is a highly enjoyable chat for Frank and Stan and we hope it provides interest, insight and a chance to reflect on some crucial leadership issues.

Enjoy....we did!

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Frank and Stan Chat would be interested in hearing from schools that share this edition with schools, classes and groups of pupils to find out whether they should continue with this approach and how following editions might be improved.

Enjoy!

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