Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, James Baker and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, Ola Thomson and James Baker. Our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Interested in joining an expert group? You can sign up here: https://hidden-ref.org/expert-groups/

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Interested in joining an expert group? You can sign up here: https://hidden-ref.org/expert-groups/

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The team highlight two must-read reflections on the reforms, including analysis of the removal of ‘culture’ from the former PCE and the disproportionate impact this may have on early career researchers, who often rely on less easily measurable contributions. While opinions differ on whether the shift from ‘culture’ to ‘strategy’ is substantive or merely semantic, there is consensus on one thing: the rules are set, and it is time to get on with it.

Much of the episode focuses on findings from the Hidden REF’s recent ‘think-aloud’ experiment, where evaluators assessed non-traditionally submitted outputs (NTOs) in real time. Drawing on 68 detailed observations across outputs ranging from software and databases to music composition, the team explore how assessors actually operationalise significance, originality, and rigour when familiar academic heuristics fall away. The results expose recurring challenges: inconsistent 300-word descriptions, reliance on inappropriate proxies from traditional publishing, and the subtle creep of aesthetics and personal taste into judgement.

The discussion moves from diagnosis to action. The team outline plans to translate these findings into practical assessment guidelines, to be tested and refined through workshops and the next Hidden REF competition. With submissions opening in March and an awards ceremony planned for November, the competition is positioned as both a low-risk testing ground and a rare source of joy in an otherwise anxiety-ridden REF cycle.

The episode closes with a shared ambition: to shift non-traditional outputs from the margins to the mainstream through evidence, dialogue, and sustained collective effort.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The real highlight, though, is a fascinating interview with Sophie Crouchman from Universities Human Resources (UHR), conducted by Simon. Sophie lifts the lid on the often unseen role of HR in REF preparation and delivery, from staff data and equality impact assessments to promotion criteria, reward structures and institutional culture. She makes a compelling case that, despite the technical language and frameworks, REF is ultimately about people, and HR colleagues are central to making it work.

The conversation explores workload, recognition, collaboration across professional services, and how HR teams support universities through constant policy change and uncertainty. It is a warm, insightful reminder that REF is a collective effort, powered by many roles that rarely get the spotlight. A cheerful, thought-provoking episode that celebrates the hidden work behind the headlines and sets the scene nicely for REF conversations in the year ahead.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From there, the conversation takes a dramatic turn. Mere minutes before recording, news dropped that the REF pause will end on 10 December, accompanied by major presentations from Dame Jessica Corner and the REF team. Cue excitement, mild panic, and the realisation that the next few weeks may involve emergency podcast episodes. Simon and Ola will be attending the Universities UK conference in person, and providing near-live commentary, possibly including gasps or cheers.

The trio reflect on the sector’s peculiar ‘pause that was not a pause’. Although REF planning was officially frozen, universities have continued diligently preparing outputs, impacts and PCE statements. Everyone agrees that many colleagues deserve medals, naps or both.

Listeners’ questions from the Hidden REF Festival prompt discussions about non-traditional outputs, the effort required to submit them, and the broader ambitions of the 5% manifesto. The team emphasises that the goal is not to create NTOs for the sake of it, but to recognise existing work fairly and transparently. The episode closes with an exploration of PCE, its long-overdue role in improving research culture, and a collective hope that, with REF 2029, meaningful change may finally be on the way.

If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The team also share the emotional impact of hearing from past Hidden REF competition winners. Stories like that of Laura Henderson, whose recognition in a Hidden Role has since led to expanded research support capacity in hospitals, underline why this work matters so much. A little recognition, they note, can have transformative effects on careers, institutions, and even patient outcomes. Alongside these moving moments, the Festival also laid the groundwork for expert working groups that will help shape guidelines for assessing diverse outputs, ensuring that the community itself drives the change.

From there, the discussion turns to the White Paper, which reaffirms the REF as the UK’s central mechanism for assessing research but hints at shifts in emphasis. The UK government’s focus on economic impact and the critique of a “one-size-fits-all” model of excellence suggest that the REF of the future may look very different. The team weigh up what this could mean for universities and for the broader definition of research excellence, noting both the risks of narrowing the focus and the opportunities for more inclusive recognition.

Together, these two threads — the grassroots energy of the Hidden REF Festival and the top-down direction of government policy — paint a picture of a research culture in transition. With the next Hidden REF competition on the horizon, the hosts argue that now is the moment to pull up our socks and get on with reshaping how excellence is defined and rewarded.

If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ola compares the REF to an iceberg: what you see is a harmless evaluation exercise, but beneath lurk strategy, politics, performance management, and possibly a kraken of accountability. The hosts debate why the REF's noble pursuit of excellence ends up raising everyone’s blood pressure.

Between discussions of “research culture,” “the human element,” and whether wombats could manage universities, the team delivers surprisingly profound insights—occasionally disguised as jokes.

By the end, listeners may find themselves reconsidering their life choices, their institutional policies, and whether being “REF-able” is a compliment. The REF will find you. But at least now, you’ll understand its motives.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lizzie dives straight into the thorny issue of research culture—what it is, why it matters, and why simply having shiny labs and big grants doesn’t mean your environment is excellent if the culture is toxic, precarious, or exclusive. She makes the case that culture isn’t a “nice-to-have” add-on but part of research excellence itself. Hygiene factors (like reporting misconduct or tackling pay gaps), she argues, are basic standards, not gold-star achievements.

The conversation also tackles REF politics, funding pressures, and the dreaded “publish or perish” mindset. Lizzie suggests that shifting weight away from outputs could encourage team science and more honest research practices. The hosts riff on rumors, fears, and the endless semantics of REF-speak, but ultimately agree with Lizzie’s mantra: stop dithering, just get on with it, and learn as we go.

It’s a thoughtful, fun, and surprisingly hopeful chat about how the UK can build research cultures worth celebrating—not just surviving.

If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

But that’s just the warm-up. The real drama? The infamous “pause to the REF.” Is it a no-cost extension in academic speak, or just three months of potential confusion? Rumors are flying fast: some say REF is being scrapped, others whisper about two-tier systems, and still others that the percentages on the PCE could be changed. Cue Dumbledore quotes, Russell Group conspiracy theories, and a plea not to treat researchers like battery hens.

We also get into the CKU guidance – the contribution to knowledge and understanding – and welcome the clarification that technicians, research software engineers, librarians, and other “hidden” roles can submit outputs in 2029. But will universities actually embrace this, or cling to the status quo?

And finally, excitement builds for the upcoming Festival of Hidden REF. Two days of lightning talks, workshops, and rumor-mill buzz right in the middle of the REF pause. It’s sold out, but don’t panic – a livestream is on the way. So join us for speculation, celebration, and maybe a little mischief as we unravel REF myths, spotlight hidden roles, and ask what kind of research culture we really want to build.

If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We kick off with dramatic outcries, vague role descriptors, and the REF team's valiant attempt to clarify who actually counts in REF submissions (spoiler: more people than you think!). From technicians to research software engineers, the REF's message is clear—contributions come in many forms

Then we head to Liverpool, where trailblazer Natalie Wallis shares her experiences of recognising Dots/NTOs and working with us on the first at-scale NTO workshop. Our hosts explore themes around awareness-raising, cultural inertia, and the ever-present stick vs. carrot dilemma. Should universities do the right thing because it's right—or only when there's a strategic advantage?

From software in computer science (all two submissions of it!) to composition, translation, and data, the team calls for a REF revolution.

If there’s anything in the REF guidance that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We start with an update on our events, mainly focussing on their popularity. Both the Hidden REF Festival and the not-traditionally submitted output workshops that we ran recently at Kings and Liverpool have proven very popular.

We then discuss the guidance for the Contributions to Knowledge and Understanding (CKU) which was released on the 19th June 2025. Once again the REF have made clear their commitment that all outputs are equally important, and that outputs other than journal articles or books should be submitted. It won’t be clear which outputs will make the final list (that will happen in Autumn 2025), but the guidance indicates that the submittable outputs will be broader than the 2021 REF.

It’s not all good news. The way in which the guidance attempts to identify the people who are involved in research creates an ambiguity that could be used to exclude a lot of research-active roles. We get into a discussion about definitions of “substantive link”, “enabling research” and “role descriptor” and how their definition will be of fundamental importance to the inclusiveness of the next REF. We then venture into probability of outputs and how it will affect people: the spirit of the REF is there and the devil is in the details!

If there’s anything in the REF guidance that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The next episode of What the REF will be a big one! We're going to take a look at the guidance for the Contribution to Knowledge and Understanding and some of the questions that it has generated.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you want to learn more about how you can engage with the REF, you should sign up for the Festival of Hidden REF on the 7-8 October 2025 at Thinktank, Birmingham Science Museum. The Festival focuses on sharing knowledge about non-traditional outputs and Hidden Roles, collecting new ideas and the latest developments from attendees and, most importantly, celebrating everyone who contributes to research.

If you have a question about the REF or an idea for the podcast, let us know at WTreF@hidden-ref.org, BlueSky or Linkedin.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, we discuss the REF as an amazing driver of research culture change and our hopes for increasing engagement with the exercise so that we can build a research environment that is more equitable and more effective. We talk about our dream guests for future episodes, the difficulties in running an assessment that gets to the heart of what is important to research, REF myth busting, Gemma tests our knowledge of REF output categories, and we even look into how long it would take the average person to read through all of the REF guidance (spoiler: it’s about 11 days).

If you want to learn more about how you can engage with the REF, you should sign up for the Festival of Hidden REF on the 7-8 October 2025 at Thinktank, Birmingham Science Museum. The Festival focuses on sharing knowledge about non-traditional outputs and Hidden Roles, collecting new ideas and the latest developments from attendees and, most importantly, celebrating everyone who contributes to research.

If you have a question about the REF or an idea for the podcast, let us know at WTreF@hidden-ref.org, BlueSky or Linkedin.

Our hosts are James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.