Jenny talks about her story, from her relationship with her mother, to her experience of school and on into teaching English Literature, working as a SENDCO and then training and working as an Educational Psychotherapist in a London CAMHS clinic. She shares her wisdom on assessment, tasks and the future of Educational Psychotherapy, drawing on her vast experience. I always find it enlivening to listen to her or read her work. I don't know how many times I have read Reaching and Teaching, the book she co-authored with Gill Salmon, but it is a high number! And each time brings something thought-provoking and practically useful for working with children.

Thank you, Jenny, for such a rich conversation!

References:

Reaching and Teaching through Educational Psychotherapy: A Case Study Approach by Gillian Salmon and Jenny Dover

Observing and Interpreting by Jenny Dover in Therapeutic Practice in Schools: Working with the Child Within: A Clinical Workbook for Counsellors, Psychotherapists and Arts Therapists, Eds. Lyn French and Reva Klein

The Caspari Foundation

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Lee trained as a Secondary English teacher and then had a fascinating journey through her career, helping children and staff in schools, in Simmons House Adolescent Unit, the Tavistock Day Unit and the Cassel Hospital, a psychiatric unit in Richmond.

I’d been wanting to talk to her for some time about working in multidisciplinary settings, an area I am both curious about and very challenged by!

This became a really interesting discussion of how this type of work can be most effective - for example, working with parents and doing reflective work with staff; and also how things have and could change within the education system, and for us as therapeutic teachers and/or Educational Psychotherapists.

References:

The Internal and External Worlds of Children and Adolescents: Collaborative Therapeutic Care (The Cassel Hospital Monograph Series) Eds. Lesley Day & Denis Flynn

Not Now, Bernard by David McKee

Don’t Dawdle Dorothy by Margrit Cruickshank

The Caspari Foundation

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He is a Child and Educational Psychologist, Royal Society of Arts and Churchill Fellow, advisor to Foundation for Education Development and Queens Commonwealth Trust, writer, researcher, podcaster and also a very cool human being.

I had originally intended to talk to Jo about the similarities and differences in our work, but there ended up being too many other interesting avenues to go down - mostly around Supervision and working with staff in schools. So this time, I tried to stay focused, and we talked at length about what I try to do and how that differs, or not, from Educational Psychology.

References:

Heather Geddes's Learning Triangles in  Attachment in Classroom: A Practical Guide for Schools (2006)

Jo's podcast The Sizzle

Jo is a prolific thinker, researcher and writer and I recommend you check out his work below.

He is currently researching:

compassion as an approach for supporting care giving (https://bit.ly/3SXIyMa);

and collecting the wisdom of Educational Psychologists with over 20 yrs experience to influence practice for the next 20 years (https://constellationspsychology.notion.site/The-Psychology-Elders-Project-93cee0ccd5e246bf8f81f49ff04a4d5b).

Here is his newsletter:

https://drjotaylor.substack.com/

and website:

www.drjotaylor.com

For feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.uk

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He is a Child and Educational Psychologist, Royal Society of Arts and Churchill Fellow, advisor to Foundation for Education Development and Queens Commonwealth Trust, writer, researcher, podcaster

and also a very cool human being.

I'd been wanting to talk to him for ages about Educational Psychology, what he feels it is and needs to be, and what similarities and differences we see between our fields. We ended up talking a lot about Supervision and working with staff, and also about systemic issues.

I hope there will be more - it felt like we only scratched the surface!

References-wise, he mentions the ideas of Urie Bronfennbrenner and his ecological systems theory which influenced the direction Jo's work has taken.

Jo is a prolific thinker, researcher and writer and I recommend you check out his work below.

He is currently researching:

compassion as an approach for supporting care giving (https://bit.ly/3SXIyMa);

and collecting the wisdom of Educational Psychologists with over 20 yrs experience to influence practice for the next 20 years (https://constellationspsychology.notion.site/The-Psychology-Elders-Project-93cee0ccd5e246bf8f81f49ff04a4d5b).

Here is his newsletter:

https://drjotaylor.substack.com/

his podcast:

https://pod.link/1439247772

and website:

www.drjotaylor.com

For feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.uk

Please complete this 1-minute feedback survey too.

Thanks for listening!

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I have wanted to interview Luke for a long time - he was a lecturer on the Caspari Foundation course when I trained and I have been a participant in clinical groups he has facilitated, and I have always been so inspired by his incredibly broad knowledge and ability to draw on theory to illuminate work with a child in the room. 

We talk about Luke’s interesting journey from artist to Learning Mentor to Educational psychotherapist to Supervisor, School Governor, Caspari Tutor and Trustee. He explains his use of Bruce Perry’s three Rs - regulate, relate, reason - from the neurosequential model of development, to inform his interaction with children in the therapy room, and his ideas about containment, play and the third space. We also talk about other complementary modalities such as DDP (Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy), Theraplay and BUSS (Building Underdeveloped Sensorimotor Systems) and how they have influenced Luke’s work.

Here are the organisations, ideas and books Luke references:

Caspari Foundation

TouchBase

DDP

Theraplay

Attachment in Classroom: A Practical Guide for Schools (2006) - Heather Geddes

Subjects of Analysis (1994) - Thomas H. Ogden

Sensory Solutions in the Classroom (2021) - Carmen Lamp & Monique Thoonsen

Luke also mentions:

Joseph's Campbell's famous idea of the Hero’s Journey;

Julia Mitchell’s various work on siblings;

and Don Carveth's YouTube Channel

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Her article in the 2022 Caspari Journal is entitled -

Learning Begins Long Before Children Arrive at School: A brief exploration of certain developmental theories and links to

learning in Educational Psychotherapy (Contact the Caspari Foundation for copies of the journal).

It is this paper that got me thinking about how we use our knowledge of developmental stages to figure out where to start with the young people we work with.

Ingrid explains, with lively examples, how some of this work looks in action, and also how we can help teachers to deal with and contain the difficult feelings that arise in the classroom.

Here are some of the people and theories we mention, plus any specific books we reference:

Muriel Barratt - 'second-chance learning'; see also Jenny Dover and Jill Salmon's writing in Reaching and Teaching Through Educational Psychotherapy (2007)

Dr Gabor Maté

We also mention the 'big names' for us: Sigmund Freud, Anna Freud, Donald Winnicott, Melanie Klein.

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But she is also really engaging to listen to, full of wisdom and real-life illustration of what are sometimes abstract theories in our work.

Marie’s books, available from these and other good booksellers!

Teaching the Unteachable: what teachers can do when all else fails (2008)

What can I do with the kid who? A quick discipline guide for teachers to deal with disruptive pupils (2010)

Attachment for Teachers: an essential handbook for trainees and NQTs (2017)

Using an attachment approach in the classroom in Andrea Perry (Ed) Teenagers & Attachment: Helping Adolescents Engage with Life and Learning (2009)

Marie also references Heather Geddes’s book Attachment in Classroom: A Practical Guide for Schools (2006)

Marie’s organisation is Trauma Responsive Education

A summary of Marie’s RETHINK model on Dr Chris Moore’s great blog Edpsychinsight

The Caspari Foundation (where we trained):

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Over the years I became more curious about Irene Caspari, the incredible woman behind Educational Psychotherapy, and when I read Lynsey Daniels paper on her, in the Caspari Journal, I wanted to know more...

Lynsey and I also talk about where 'EPT' has taken some of our colleagues and how the Advanced Diploma in Educational Psychotherapy has evolved - still with psychoanalytic theory at its core, but now with powerful sprinklings of neuroscience.

Some people and books we mention:

Irene Caspari (1976) Trouble Children in Class; The Collected Papers ((posthumously published in 1984, now out-of-print, but we hope to change this!)

Friedrich Fröbel - the German educator who invented Kindergarten, and whose training Irene Caspari completed in London

Bettini Davou & Fotini Xenakis (1998) Feeling, Communicating and Thinking

We also mention our staple theorists: Sigmund Freud, Anna Freud, John Bowlby, Melanie Klein.

And fellow Educational Psychotherapists who have gone before us: Gerda Hanko, Muriel Barratt, Helen High, Mark Griffiths.

EPIC stands for Educational Psychotherapy in the Community

The Caspari Foundation previously known as FAETT - the Foundation for the Advancement of Educational Psychotherapy and Therapeutic Teaching

There's more about Irene Caspari on the Caspari Foundation website

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We did this partly to help ourselves figure it out! But also because, being quite a niche field, we find ourselves having to explain it a lot.

We got into some of our ways of working with young people, the 'task' that differentiate Educational Psychotherapy from other types of psychotherapy (we think), how we work with schools and our main influences from psychoanalytic theory and neuroscience.

Here are some of the people and theories we mention, plus any specific books we reference.

Graham Music - Nurturing Children; Respark

Anne Alvarez - e.g. The Thinking Heart

Donald Winnicott - 'good enough'; the squiggle game

Wilfred Bion - container/contained

Melanie Klein - the depressive position; envy

Carl Jung - Dreams

Anna Freud - defence mechanisms

Bruce Perry - founder of The Neurosequential Network

Angela Greenwood - Understanding, Nurturing and Working Effectively with Vulnerable Children in Schools: 'Why Can't You Hear Me'

The Anna Freud National Centre for Children and Families (where Louise did her bereavement training)

Emel's website

The Caspari Foundation (where we trained):

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